I'm really surprised that after three days no one has ventured a comment on MH17.

Well here's my take - Friday morning within hours of the story breaking the media was saw Tweets from a Russian military adviser boasting about shooting down the plane (believed a Ukrainian jet). We heard audio recordings between the rebels that eventually lead to the recognition a serious mistake had been made; even an insulting comment from one commander suggesting it was the plane's fault for flying overhead. Shortly later, the boastful tweet was removed. I honestly expected Putin would order the tweeting commander to hand himself in, and this would get resolved without potentially escalating into WWIII. Now I'm not so sure.

In my mind there is no question who shot down MH17. But can the world honestly say it was Putin? I think that's a stretch but Putin is not helping the cause. It also seems to me the media is in cahoots with the West's agenda to turn this into a 'stick it to Putin' opportunity. The media across all channels is fairly consistent but in some ways its emphasising the negative and avoiding much comment where there has been cooperation.

I say the above in the context of the rebels "desecrating the site", "tampering with evidence"; "being disrespectful to the dead", "piling the dead on the roadside in black plastic bags" ; taking the bodies away in trucks in black plastic bags" "putting the bodies on a train, possibly bound for Moscow".

No mention of what the outrage would be if the rebels left the bodies in the field where they fell, awaiting the arrival an investigation team from overseas. If the rebels are being so uncooperative why are they allowing journalist to video them collecting the bodies, carrying the black box, showing the refrigerated train cars, and stating they will allow a full investigation? Why hasn't there been more said about the agreement and assurances Putin gave Merkle?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending anyone. I am however questioning some of the one-sided media reports we are receiving.

They always refer to 'Rebels'. Are they russian rebels or ukrainian rebels ? My gut feeling is that it possibly will knock Putin off his perch.

"I'm really surprised that after three days no one has ventured a comment on MH17."

It's not a particularly significant event for anyone not directly involved, I can tell you what will come of this incident, absolutely nothing.
I'm old enough to remember KAL 007, Iran Air 655 and KAL 902, unfortunately these incidents happen from time to time and it's sad that people lose loved ones but they don't really have any impact in the geopolitical sense,there's nothing the E.U or U.S can do about it anyway,
As for the media reports...well, nobody with a brain in their heads takes anything the mainstream media outlets release seriously, when they aren't cutting and pasting from foreign wire services or the U.S state department website they get their information from Twitter, Facebook and the government.

ITS YOUR..TYPICAL BAIT AND SWITCH
a black flag..rather than..a red flag
[its definitly..no black swan-event]

MH17..Smoking Guns Emerge!..Kiev Did It!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFlGLqiDogA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFlGLqiDogA
Amazingly,..the smoking gun was provided..by Kiev themselves in the latest show that these Nazi’s..in the Ukraine and those helping them here in America..and at the UN aren’t the brightest bulbs in the room.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=48

In the 1st video,..PressResetEarth gives us a complete compilation of all the evidence..that has emerged,..some of it totally fabricated, that help expose this now obvious WW3 false flag;..in the 2nd, Dahboo, fresh off of his appearance in a Washington Post story (Before It’s News is ‘honored’ to have been called ‘unabashedly unhinged’ in the same story!), breaks down how we can tell beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was Kiev who set up this failed false flag.

Read more at http://investmentwatchblog.com/boom-mh17-smoking-guns-emerge-kiev-did-it-complete-compilation-of-all-the-evidence-as-mh17-false-flag-falls-apart/#7bpFMGMlMDEJqj4s.99

Complete Compilation Of All The Evidence..As MH17 False Flag Falls Apart!

http://investmentwatchblog.com/boom-mh17-smoking-guns-emerge-kiev-did-it-complete-compilation-of-all-the-evidence-as-mh17-false-flag-falls-apart/

Zionist Israel an International Pariah
http://batr.org/reactionary/072114.html

Gaza has become a slaughter zone
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ea1_1405874581
for the eradication of Palestinians with the most advanced military technology that Israel posses. In comparison the blaming of Hamas for this latest barrage of rockets, fails to recognize any proposition in the mutual savagery. Depending on one’s view just who is the unlawful belligerent, sympathy and condemnation follows. This eternal struggle will never end peacefully.

Debating international law,..dissecting historic claims,..strategizing military options,..analyzing diplomatic intentions,..and especially honoring superior doctrine among conflicting religious beliefs..WITH SECULAR AIMS..is a formula that offers no solutions.

Yet, ..Israel is wedded.to an expansionist political objective. http://investmentwatchblog.com/crimes-against-humanity-with-500-palestinians-already-dead-idf-shells-another-hospital-5-more-dead-dozens-hurt/..
Boom!
Extending settlements/prevent..any permanent settlement agreement.

FBI pushed Muslims to plot terrorist attacks: rights report
http://patriotrising.com/2014/07/21/fbi-pushed-muslims-plot-terrorist-attacks-rights-report/

The FBI encouraged..and sometimes even paid Muslims to commit terrorist acts during numerous sting operations after the 9/11 attacks, a human rights group said in a report published Monday.
http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/fbi-entrapment-created-illusion-terrorist-plots-report/

US networks remove reporters critical of Israeli attack on Gaza

http://rinf.com/alt-news/media-news/us-networks-remove-reporters-critical-israeli-attack-gaza/

On two consecutive days this week,..journalists reporting from the Gaza war zone who evinced..empathy for the Palestinians and less than unquestioning support for Israel were removed by television network executives.

http://www.intellihub.com/evolution-u-s-war-propaganda/

YOUR/delusions=our-Nightmare*
http://rss.infowars.com/20140721_Mon_Alex.mp3

No one has wanted to comment yet, too soon perhaps and
"There goes I but for the Grace of God"
but to brave a comment:

It is a pretty simple situation I believe.
First Putin would not have had prior knowledge.
There are according to one report 400 aircraft a day using that airway.
There may have been perhaps 10 or 20 targets on the screen.
Some ill trained, probably Russian, soldier clicked on a very high
target. The system probably displayed the altitude, speed and direction
of the target. Perhaps he did not have his glasses on.

A Singapore Airline aircraft either behind MH17 or going the opposite
way was close and could have been another target on the screen.

These suppositions of mine are just that but are more likely than
all the conspiracy theories that float around.

Malaysian airlines was just in the wrong place at the same time.
It was bad luck, but who wants to fly with an unlucky airline ?

Chain of command, ConservativeHippy:

Who authorised 'pressing the button' ?

Which KGB officer authorised sending the missiles inside rebel-held territory, knowing they could be used ?

Who is his KGB senior officer ? Who is HIS KGB senior officer ?

If this goes all the way up to the Russian War Minister (I won't dignify him by calling him a 'defence' minister), then presumably he acted in accordance with Putin's general instructions.

So the buck stops with Putin ?

If so, konyets Putina

So the buck stops with Putin ?
Loudmouth,
Their Public Service then is very similar to ours when you simply blame someone at the top for some crazy mutt who didn't think before deciding to do something.
I am doubtful to the extreme that the russian President sanctioned this brutal act.
I recall a ship's Captain losing his command because the first officer ran the ship onto a rock whilst the Captain was in the toilet. Go figure ??
It's an extremely stupid system to just blame the one at the top.

As this little sounding board calls itself...On Line Opinion, here is my opinion guys n gals -

MH 370 was remotely flown from a point half an hour into the flight timing..was taken up to 45,000 feet where due to anoxia the passengers & crew lost consciousness & died. Once this was determined the aircraft was then 'flown' out to Diego Garcia. The whole "search" was designed to allow the US and it allies (including Australian Intelligence agencies)to ascertain the capabilities of the Chinese surveillance. DSD at Kojarena (Geraldton) was monitoring the whole show & passing all intel on to Diego Garcia & Nurrungar - CIA etc.

MH 17 is number 2 aircraft, & they could have chosen another carrier other than Malaysian Air, but being Muslim and say choosing Emirates/Etihad would have pissed off the House of Saud, and they are too far entwined with the US govt and The Good Ole Boys for that to ever happen overtly. Why then have they chosen 2 identical aircraft (Boeing 777''s) from the same carrier? Simple...the more wreckage they have from the same aircraft the easier it is for the "Experts" to stuff up the identification - serial numbering aside.

We are now waiting for the '3rd' (and most important) Boeing 777 to go missing or be destroyed, & my guess is it will be in the USA this time, but that aircraft will actually be MH 370.

As I have said in other posts, the US economy is going downhill rapidly and the Neo-Con artists and their ilk need a good war to stir up patriotic fervour and shares in armaments.

Old Major General Smedley Butler had it sussed out years ago..."war is a racket, and I have been a racketeer on 3 continents - whereas the Mafia could only operate on 1..."

Nothing like the Horror Movie...its the 6 o'çlock news !

Pray for the souls on MH 370, MH17 and those who are not yet known, but will be sacrificed for greed and lust.

Hi Individual,

I'm certainly not saying that Putin got on the phone to some drunk in Donetsk and ordered him to blow a Malaysian civilian aircraft out of the sky.

But work backwards: how could a bunch of thugs get hold of a mobile missile battery system ? Who provided it ? Who authorised the provision of it ? Who authorised him to authorise such an action ? And so on.

How far up the chain does it go, unless you're suggesting that - somewhere DOWN the chain - a rogue officer, perhaps - okayed the firing of the missile. Not directly, perhaps, and not precisely at this aircraft, but open permission to go ahead.

I'm suggesting that such a general action had the approval all the way up to Putin. Yes, it's an' accident', they thought they were using a Russian-supplied (and maybe a Russian-manned), surface-to-air missile system to shoot down a Ukrainian cargo plane. But responsibility for the possibility of such an outrage happening goes up to Putin.

Joe

Loudmouth,
We hear what you're saying & it perfectly complies with the bulk of today's mentality. My take is that we can't keep making others responsible. Someone driving an unregistered vehicle in perfect safety gets charged with an accident if a drunk runs into them. It's not the drunk who cops it. Russia provided missiles, everyone provides missiles & machinery of war but they don't use it. So if what you're saying is that because Russia supplied the missile Putin is responsible ? Putin said if there were peace in the Ukraine this plane would not have been shot down. Valid point ! Why not make BHP responsible for providing the iron ore that's sent to China & missiles are probably made from it ? We'd need to go back to stoneage technology to be free of guilt by association.
I think it's one of our times' great stuff-ups to make others responsible instead of the actual culprit. I would not be at all surprised if Putin orders the missile launch operator to be shot for this. Even better send him to Malaysia & be dealth by Shariah Law.

Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

Continued...

From last post...

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.
I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

AMD, It seems you need post traumatic treatment.

Most likely it was a mistake. In that there was no intention to down a civillian airliner, but human error (of one sort or another) resulted in that outcome.

But this will be good fodder for the conspiracy theorists and I see some are getting in early.

Thanks Josephus, the drugs prescribed are working well. No more lucid moments thanks to listening to the regular news outlets, CNN, ABC, Fox, whoever... just swallow my Mac Happy Pills and get on with a droning existence like many others hey ? And we're supposed to accept all this nonsense since September 11...The War On Terror, WMD's, The War On Whatever ? Its like the web log says...On Line Opinion mate, my opinion, your opinion and anyone with a computer who has an opinion.

No need for belittling someone else when it doesn't run in accord with your thoughts/opinion.

Yes this thread is bringing all sorts out of the closet...just caught another one didn't we?

Agronomist,

The point is that it is probable that Russia shipped surface-to-air missile systems into another country for the purpose of subverting that country and supporting 'rebels' who, in all likelihood, they had sent in earlier. Yes ? No ?

If this is true, then it is, in itself, an act of war, regardless of whether or not somebody made a 'mistake'. Yes ? No ?

No conspiracy, just plain dumb-dumbness.

Joe

OK, here’s a take on these events based on old and recent history. Afraid it’s a long story.

First, Foreign Minister Bishop’s UN resolution is exactly what’s needed. No rush to judgement, but a well-worded demand for what is obviously the right thing to do.

Demands for prejudgement come from those with an axe to grind and something to hide. The Nazis and the Americans have false-flag form going back to prewar times.

Hermann Göring pioneered false flag operations with the burning down of the Reichstag, immediately blaming the Communists and launching the so-called Notverordnung to extinguish all remaining liberty in Germany. Got in fast, before any investigation.

Then there was the faked-up “attack” by “Poles” (prisoners dressed in Polish uniforms) followed immediately by the Blitzkrieg attack on Poland and the Drang nach Osten to seize land for Lebensraum. Again got in fast – before any investigations! Schnell schnell schnell as the Germans barked to prisoners to hurry them into the gas chambers.

After Germany was defeated the brand passed to America with the Tonkin Gulf Incident followed by a criminal nine-year war on Vietnam’s people, slaughtering 2 million of them.

After the Americans were defeated in Vietnam as their German predecessors were in Europe, there was a mysterious attack on the Twin Towers, murdering 3000 people. The American Neocons, spouting an implausible conspiracy theory, blamed it on their own deadly creation Al Qa’eda and its Afghanistan hosts and achieved a game change in which the guts of the US constitution have been lost for ever and America placed on a permanent war footing both globally and domestically.

Taking advantage, the American Neocons, abetted by fellow-war criminals Tony Bliar and John Howard, invented an Iraqi cache of WMDs to use for a Blitzkrieg invasion of secular Iraq. Schnell schnell schnell - Saddam was offering and Blix was demanding an investigation that would expose the lie. Iraq is now at the mercy of Moslem barbarians.

[continued]

[continued]
In another false flag operation America’s Islamist clients launched poison gas in Syria followed by an orchestrated howl for a barrage of missiles to punish the Syrian people and dislodge their secular government. War criminals like John McCain of Operation Rolling Thunder infamy demanded haste (schnell schnell schnell) to forestall any investigation of the source of the gas attack). Fortunately the Russians spiked their guns.

And now they’re screaming schnell schnell schnell again for increasing blows against Putin, again busting to get in before the murders of those on board Flight MH17 can be investigated. The murders are from fire well inside Ukraine’s borders where a Nazi-infested coup regime is waging violent war on a captive nation whose people have been daring to seek self-determination. Included in the Nazis’ equipment are batteries of exactly the same missiles that are said to have destroyed MH17, along with teams of experts trained in their use.

What sent the Americans and the drongoes who believe them into a fury in the first place was the help Russia gave the people of captive Crimea to seek self-determination at the ballot box. How DARE they vote for self-determination! Retaliate! Schnell schnell schnell!

There’s a context for assessing these events, a context which 50 million or more people including thousands of Australian heroes died in the 1940s to establish for the world. Here are a couple of links to the overriding principles of this hard-won context:

http://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/ccpr.aspx (Note Article 1)
http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-nurem.htm (Note Principle VI a)

Joe, in case you haven’t noticed there is a war already going on at the moment between Russian-backed and supplied separatists on one side and the Ukraine government on the other side.

Of course the missile was supplied by Russia (the equipment captured by the separatists from the Ukraine was not in working order and had been disarmed). Even Putin accepts this version; well mostly. He claims of course it is the fault of the Ukraine because it would never have happened if they had rolled over and did what Russia wanted.

The course of events is quite simple and no conspiracy theories are needed to explain what happened.

Wars are full of people being dumb.

Emperor Julian, what a load of crap.
You can't believe in the Holocaust and turn round scorn Neo-cons and Zionist evangelicals like Bush,Howard and Blair, the lies told at Nuremberg in 1945-46 are the fuel driving this war machine.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2408405/Assad-joined-Hitler-Hussein-John-Kerry-says-Syrian-president-used-deadly-sarin-nerve-gas-Damascus-attack.html
At some point you're going to have to accept that Hitler was needlessly backed into a corner, that Britain, Poland and France started WW2 and that the history of the Zionist led Atlantic alliance is one of brutality and warmongering.
Hey here's a suggestion, instead of repeating the Zionist's line about German soldiers playing dress ups and conspiracy theories about arson attacks and post something relevant to this topic;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojhhtP8VaZI
http://www.germanvictims.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/1939_09_01-HitlerPoland_returning-fireAE.pdf

Anything sounding familiar in that speech? Is this a similar situation to the Donetsk crisis?

In a nutshell:

Russia sells gas to Europe

America is extracting gas at record rates with no market to sell to.

America paints and false flags Russia into the boogie man again.

Joe Bidens son, Hunter joins one of the largest Gas Companies in Ukraine.

Whats not to understand?

The banking system killing our economies with money printing, war will be the escape for our elites when the big collapse happens.

The BRICS nations are about to announce a new Development Bank to rival the IMF BIS and World Bank. Of course our oligarchs are demonising Putin.

Albie Manton in Darwin,
And I thought I was a pawn in the Vietnam chess game.
Fault, and blame, for the MH17 incident must lay with the airline itself for routing the aircraft over the war zone just to save fuel.
This does not excuse the Ruskies who supplied the weapon and the expertize to use it or the ground crew that fired the thing.
The truth is that if the plane had not been flying in the space it was it would not have been a target.
Today I read that the airline has made the same mistake flying over Syria.

Brilliant !

Russia sends in thugs and old KGB officers to stir up trouble in Ukraine, capped off by sending in missile launchers - and for all that and all that, the Yanks are to blame !

Pro-Russian agents shoot down a civilian aircraft - and still the Yanks are to blame !

Pro-Russian thugs kick over all the rubble, picking out bits of missile and the black boxes, looting along the way - and still the Yanks are to blame !

Cirque du Soleil acrobats have nothing on some of you fellas, your contortions and somersaults are wonders to behold.

And who said useful idiots have to be stupid and clumsy ? I dips me lid.

Joe

Ding-a-ling Ding-a-ling Ding-a-ling !

They are out in force. OLO is getting like some of the US web sites.

Son of Gloin, there is nothing to stop the US selling gas to Europe.
Except they do not have the LNG train plants up and running and it will
take a couple of years to build them, by which time they may well by
then not have the export supply.
Note how long it is taking to build them in Gladstone.

As far as gas & Europe is concerned they do not like being dependent
on Russia, but likewise Russia whose economy is really in some trouble
are very dependant on Europe for the cash flow.
They have mutual interest in not disturbing the gas flow.
They have made a gas deal with China but it will take some time to set up.

But of course it was an accident, so no blame should be placed on the 'rebels', they thought it was a military cargo plane.

If I were to beat up an old lady to steal her purse, and it turns out she has no purse, I beat up the wrong old lady. Then since I had no intention of beating up a broke old lady, I haven't really commit any offence, have I ? It's just that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time :)

Joe

Now this info is from a connection in the Ukraine. How true it is, I don't know. Apparently NATO was using radar blocking technology in this area. Before they can establish the existence of a civilian plane, the transponder of that plane sends out a signal out identifying it as such. NATO it seems blocked the signal from the transponder an so was identified as the enemy.

There are lots of stories coming out like corpses in an advanced state of decay, a fighter plane escorting MH17,a video of the crash but no smoke trail showing a hit at great heights. I doubt we'll ever know since the first casualty of war is the truth.

Arjay, I think you can write that one off.
One report I have seen said that there is in the order of 400 planes
a day using that airway.

Sure they could spoof the codes of any aircraft and make it look like
the sky was full of MH17s.
However I think it would not be as easy as all that.
They could jam the beacon frequency and no codes would be displayed.
The Ukraine ATC would have to cease operating if interference like
that was widespread.
The difficulty as I see it is to tie the counterfeit code to the
actual echo. The missles I believe can also receive the code from
all aircfaft and as it got closer to its target the real beacon
signal would overpower the spoofing signal.
The catch to that scenario is that the missile might reach the
aircraft before the aircraft sent its next beacon.
Someone who is familiar with those systems could probably show why the
whole idea could not be so in this case.

When the USA military murdered over 300 innocent civilians in 1988, when they shot down a civilian plane "Air Flight 665", what happened regarding punishment for this war crime? You guessed it ... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Not one member of the USA military was even reprimanded, let alone charged, and not one USA politician was charged. They got away with their war crime simply because they are the most powerful country in the world. An international tribunal made the USA pay about 65 million dollars in compensation ...a mere pittance for the wealthy USA.

Those murderers have been living in total freedom since they committed their heinous crime. And the same hypocritical USA now has the nerve to feign outrage at the current atrocity. I bet the hypocrite Abbott was on the USA side then, just as he is now. Total hypocrisy. Total lack of morality.

Jay123, ChrisG, SOG, Hi & Gooday. If my opinion/"hypothesis"/rant is correct it may still be USA where the next incident involving a Boeing 777 occurs. Of course it will be the Ruskies or Hamas behind that one & Syria/Middle East somewhere is possibly a good 2nd option. The flight paths posted by the Russians suggest that MH17 did deviate about 14 klm from its intended flight path, into the rebel held area.

Will the Black Box indicate a "remotely flown situation" here ? No methinks it will conveniently be a GPS malfunction/mispositioning etc that caused the aircraft to alter course into trouble.

The reports of Riceman in his video - put up on the web only 4 hrs after the event suggested a missile strike from the ground...but check the sky in other video(s) showing the explosion plume of the aircraft - cloudy/overcast contrasting Rice-mans clear blue sky with contrail of missile streaking up to aircraft - which then falls out of the sky almost straight down. No one is giving us the facts. Yet another early video showed the aircraft coming in at about 15 degrees to the ground before disappearing from shot where you then see the explosion plume from behind a small ridge in the background..

Someone knows what happened, and yes, quite probably it will eventuate that it was a Russian trained Ukrainian in a rebel uniform, sculling vodkas, who mistakenly thought it was Putin's private jet and hit the big red launch button on the Gadfly.

But 2 Boeing 777's, evidence tampered with on the ground in the case of MH17, and who knows where MH370 is...very suss the lot of it.

Hey Josephus my medication is still working, and thanks for the referral : ) feeling much better thanks ! It's certainly much better than drinking cup after cup of International Roast sitting in a padded cell, reading personal adverts in newspapers on the Hill at 1 Sqn mate!

chrisgaff1000> This does not excuse the Ruskies who supplied the weapon and the expertize to use it or the ground crew that fired the thing.<<

Chris, I don't believe you can use that as a validation of intent and therefore culpability. If that was the benchmark America could be tarred with the same brush....more American manufactured weapons and more American “advisors” are on foreign soils than the all the other nations combined...talk about over representation....does that suggest anything?

Then about all you can conclude from your logic, SOG, is that the Russian hooligans in Ukraine were not culpable, since they didn't INTEND to shoot down a civilian plane. They meant only to use a Russian-supplied missile to shoot down Ukrainian military cargo planes. Over Ukraine.

BUT the Russian military IS culpable for providing those hooligans with such sophisticated weapons, and thereby if the local military commanders had authority from Moscow, and the Russian War Minister had even tacit authority from Putin, then Putin is ultimately responsible for this gross interference in the internal affairs of a neighbouring country.

A bit like in Georgia, really. I wonder whose next ?

Yes, it was evil of the Yanks to shoot down an Iranian civilian plane in 1988. And it's evil for Russia to shoot down a Malaysian civilian plane in 2014. Two bully-boy powers. A pox on both of them.

Joe

In an apologia for the Nazi war criminals, Jay of Melbourne has dredged up a barrage of enemy propaganda.

For example, “the Zionist line about German soldiers playing dress ups”. His own Führer made reference to the supposed Polish invasion of Germany in the whining speech of 01.09.1939 with which he launched the Drang nach Osten: “For the first time last night, Polish military invaded our territory”.

The “conspiracy theories about arson attacks” refer to the burning of the Reichstag. Just Google Reichstag Fire Decree for why it was set on fire.

Hitler, an even worse liar than Bush, Howard and Blair, in the same whining diatribe demanding Polish and Czech territory, claimed “Germany has fulfilled its obligations! The minorities living within the Reich are not persecuted” So there was no Kristallnacht, no Nuremberg laws (http://history1900s.about.com/od/1930s/a/Nuremberg-Laws.htm), no Jew roundups, no Auschwitz, Belsen, Buchenwald etc. etc.

Far from attacking Germany, the Zionists connived with the Nazis, welcoming the persecution of Jews which would encourage them to infiltrate Palestine. See for example “51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis.” Ed. Lenni Brenner
http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/a-review-of-lenni-brenners-51-documents-zionist-collaboration-with-the-nazis/

But enough time wasted on rebutting enemy propaganda which was exposed a lifetime ago. Just to remember that anything a Nazi says or said about 1938-1945 or anything else will be lies.

Bazz>>Ding-a-ling Ding-a-ling Ding-a-ling !<<

Bazz “they” want NATO bases in the Ukraine and control over the only warm water port Russia has, and they want to sell their gas in place of Russia’s.....please do not give me arguments based around infrastructure lead periods....If “America” is prepared to let market forces dictate the outcome of their European sell in, why did Hunter Biden and another administration puppet join the board of the largest private gas company in Ukraine....great timing...just when they are isolating Russia.
You can’t believe the mass media Bazz...they printed Brzezinski's assertions that:
"Russia has generated in Ukraine widespread hostility towards Russia on the part of some 40 million people."

But a recent survey conducted in April 2014 by the influential Razumkov Centre in Kiev stated that “despite” of the aggravation of Russia-Ukrainian relations more than a half of respondents consider Russians a friendly and fraternal nation.

More than half the Ukraine is not buying the American administrations propaganda. I don’t buy it either.

Loudmouth >> A pox on both of them.<<

We can agree on that Joe, but how do we pox the administrations and spare the poor bastards who like us just populate these nations and have less control over their governments actions than the corporations and vested money interests have......and use.

Jay>> At some point you're going to have to accept that Hitler was needlessly backed into a corner, that Britain, Poland and France started WW2 and that the history of the Zionist led Atlantic alliance is one of brutality and warmongering<<

Jay, you cannot disregard how the Versailles Treaty and the Great Depression moulded Hitler’s personal intents. It is all there in Mein Kamph...it’s like a prophesy, have you read it...Hitler’s territorial ambitions, his social agenda and a time period to have it all come to fruition, its all there right down to a set designation of duties for the subjugated nations....it was a plan written a decade before it was implemented.....

Sonofgloin,
Yes, Hitler's plan was Lebensraum in Eastern Europe and a new European aristocracy based upon the SS, even mainstream historians now accept that because of the recently declassified GHQ papers on the Hess mission.
Emperor Julian is doing something different, he's trying to use the bogus information tendered by the Soviets in the Nuremberg show trials to impeach the very people whose whole worldview is centred upon those same lies, the real world doesn't work that way.
The lies about people being poisoned with insecticide or diesel smoke by a tyrant bent on world domination are the moral justification for everything the Zionist powers and their spokespeople Cameron, Obama, Merkel, Abbott, Netanyahu and Hollande are doing in the world.
If you object to the treatment of the Gazans or the actions of ISIS and Svoboda why the hell would you promote the bogus Holocaust narrative? Without it the Zionists have nothing.

Hey in the end much of the information on WW2 and the trainloads of seized Nazi documents are in the archives in Moscow, some pretty interesting stuff is bound to come to light if the Zionists keep aggravating Putin, he's already broken the Taboo about publicly naming the ethnic group which made up most of the Bolsheviks and Cheka and the FSB would probably know where the bodies are buried.

Sonofgloin said;
please do not give me arguments based around infrastructure lead periods....

You just cannot airily dismiss the time to build CNG plants.
The US will not have the gas to export after it was built.
If they had the CNG plants now, they could export it.
But they don't, it is only the ignorant politicians and journalists
that think they will be able to export in the future.

It does now seem to be sinking in that a CNG plant will have no future.
You have got to understand that the oil companies sold the journalists
and the politicians a pup. You have heard the stories;
The US will be an oil exporter.
Saudi America !
US will be world largest producer.

They still import 40% of the oil they use.
The tight oil will start a fast decline sometime early after 2017.
If Wall Street gets twitchy and want higher interest on the tight oil
financing it will force a closedown.

Sorry, kids, back to topic :)

IF

IF Russia has supplied surface-to-air missiles to its hooligans in eastern Ukraine, it's irrelevant whether or not they made a 'mistake' in shooting down a civilian aircraft when they meant to shoot down a Ukrainian aircraft, over Ukraine.

IF this is true, then Russia has grossly interfered in the internal affairs of a sovereign country, by committing an act of war, and by intending to commit an act of war.

IF this is true, then there goes Putin's neo-Tsarist dream of restoring the old Russian Empire, once and for all. Russia is on the slide economically, demographically and, most certainly, politically.

Sanctions or not, Putin will become ever-more reliant on Chinese finance, nationally but more particularly in the vast East, six million square miles (whatever that is in kilometres) and barely thirty million people, half of them drunk half the time.

China wants to build pipelines from parts of Siberia into eastern and western China, at first for oil, but pretty soon pipelines taking water from the huge rivers in Siberia across China's north. Perhaps they will pressure Putin to allow them to finance dams on some of those rivers for hydroelectric power, which will be transmitted directly to China.

To do all this, China will demand that millions of Chinese workers are allowed to settle in Siberia. So vast areas of Siberia, the most productive areas, will soon enough, say ten or twenty years, have Chinese majority populations, restive to break away from distant Moscow's control.

Don't you just love it when the shoe's on the other foot ?

Wouldn't be dead for quids !

Joe

This, from the respected Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/mh17-ukraine-separatists-buk-missile-system

Well, there you go :)

Joe

Well spotted, and said, Loudmouth, I hadn't thought about the Sino-Siberian development thing before, but it's entirely consistent with China's behaviour elsewhere, as in Tibet for example.
It has a certain Sudetenland ring to it, doesn't it?
Oh, to live for another century and watch all this play out!
T'was not to be alas, but I suspect in times not all too far in the future our descendents will look back on these times as a sort of Golden Age, there's every chance our civilisation could bomb out at any year now, for any number of triggers and/or combinations of circumstances.

One of the sad things about this tragedy is the way that politicians are jumping on the band wagon.

One thousand, one hundred and ninety-three (1,193) people died on our roads in 2013.

Must have missed all the uproar over it.

Anyone hear Abbott's remarks on this?

Joe>> IF this is true, then Russia has grossly interfered in the internal affairs of a sovereign country, by committing an act of war, and by intending to commit an act of war.

IF this is true, then there goes Putin's neo-Tsarist dream of restoring the old Russian Empire, once and for all. Russia is on the slide economically, demographically and, most certainly, politically.<<

Joe, one can state issues that are on the face of it valid....but when you add context the travesty ends up as the status quo.......for all.

The cold war was 50 years of the Yanks and the Ruskies taking opposite sides on every struggle on the globe...they armed the second and third worlds this way....still do....so the travesty and immorality implied in the comment “committing an act of war” loses its severity.

America has active servicemen in over 150 foreign nations.........Russia has troops in 11.
Joe the Russian empire that you suggest Putin aspires to has a long long way to go....

Loudmouth, interesting scenario that you presented.
But why wait to see that takeover technique in action.
How about the mines and farms in Queensland. They are proposing just
that arrangement in Queensland. Last I heard it was put to the government
for 453 visas. I remember Bob Katter warning of just this happening.

The first Ukrainian aircraft that were shot down were fired on from
Russian territory. There was a fuss made about that so they moved
them into the Ukraine.
Now that they have shot down a civilian aircraft they have moved them back into Russia.
The latest is they have shot down another Ukrainian fighter from inside Russia.

I think Putin has adopted the policy, they might know who done it,
but if I just deny it, what can they do about it ?

Yes, we do get of the track, but it does mean some things get discussed
that would not generate their own threads.

Joe Loudmouth wrote:

"IF this is true, then Russia has grossly interfered in the internal affairs of a sovereign country, by committing an act of war, and by intending to commit an act of war."

Russia interfered with the internal affairs of a sovereign country back in February when they sent troops into Crimea and ultimately annexed it. That was rather more significant interference than this incident.

Agronomist,

Why stop there ? We're just coming up to the sixth anniversary of the Russian invasion of Georgia.

Who's next ?

What amazes me is that Russia itself is made up of dozens and dozens of semi-independent republics, of ethnic groups other than Russian - Bashkars, Volga Germans, Evenks, Bulgars, and of course Chechens, Ossetians, Balkarians and Dagestanis. Each of those may be inhabited by even smaller ethnic groups.

At any time, especially if the Greater-Russian power flags, groups all across Russia could assert their right to self-determination on the same 'principle' as Putin has encouraged some in Ukraine to try on.

What's sauce for the goose .......

Joe

Joe>> Why stop there ? We're just coming up to the sixth anniversary of the Russian invasion of Georgia.

Who's next ? <<

Well Joe....as I pointed out and you failed to address, America has troops in 150 foreign nations, and Russia have troops in 11.

But this fact conveys nothing to you, but then again your history here displays your ability of just regurgitating out of context scraps of information.

SOG,

Darn, I missed it; which country did the USA last annex?

SOG,

It's irrelevant, and if anything, Russian aggressions are counter-productive: ask yourself, if you dare, whether or not the US is MORE or LESS likely to push for bases in eastern Europe in the face of Russian aggression against sovereign nations such as Georgia and Ukraine. If Putin was as peaceful as you suggest, and none of this is his doing, wouldn't the US have fewer reasons to add to its number of bases ?

To get back to topic: let's suppose that Ukraine has committed this vile act, and that the Russians are as innocent as babes: what would one expect to observe over the past week ?

IF Ukraine shot down this civilian aircraft, given that it has crashed into rebel-held territory, wouldn't you expect that the rebels are competent enough to immediately seal off the crash area ?

That they would immediately arrange for refrigeration units to be shipped near the site - it's summer, after all ?

And within hours, invite international teams in to carry out a thorough investigation ?

That within 24 hours, most of the bodies and body parts have been found and bagged, to be put immediately into refrigerated wagons or containers, taken to the nearest airport and flown to a central forensic site ? That the black boxes would have been found and flown to wherever they could be examined ?

That Ukraine would obfuscate, bluster, block any investigation, even bombard the site on the pretext of dispersing rebels, etc. ?

Do you ever ask yourself any of these questions ? Or do you believe, chapter and verse, the propaganda being put out by RT, Putin's TV station ?

Useful idiots, indeed.

Joe

Ignoring all the conspiratorial rants above I'm prepared to accept that some ill-trained militia commander with a big gun and a small brain took a unilateral decision to shoot down what he assumed as (another) cargo plane, as they have done before.

A Malaysian pilot had also taken the decision (or was told) to fly over a route that had been abandoned by other airlines as being potentially too dangerous just to save some fuel.

The resulting combination was an undeniable tragedy.

Not that it justifies this in any way but there is far more to the Ukrainian situation than has been skimmed over by the media.

Then again most think it's nothing more than "baddies versus baddies" anyway.

Is the fact that the Russians provided the weapons really any worse than the US weapons being used against the Palestinians, Tamils and in almost every other conflict?

Is Mise, the last US annexation was the Mariana Islands in 1947, where they took over a United Nations (actually a League of Nations) mandate from Japan following WWII.

Wobbles,

Assuming that firing off a surface-to-air missile requires a bit more line-of-command authority than shooting at your neighbour's cat with a pea-rifle, the unfortunate commission of this accident surely would have needed not only highly skilled operatives, maybe more than one or two, but also authority from much higher up in the chain of command.

Through some general or other, to the Minister of Aggression, and if he has any control over his own myrmidons, to Putin himself.

Or are you suggesting that Putin is powerless to control anything anybody down the hierarchy does, right down to the handful of morons who pressed the buttons ?

Who approved the transport of the missile system over the border and did that go up to Putin ?

How high up the hierarchy did the authority to press the buttons go ? At what point was there a break in the chain of command, if Putin is as innocent as you tacitly assume, and if some other Mafia/KGB colonel in his entourage gave the orders, or at least 'enabled' them ?

Joe

Loudmouth,
There was a report some days back that the Southern Russian army
command is somewhat rebellious of command from the Kremlin.
The report said something like they make their own rules.
I cannot verify it or vouch for it but in a large country like Russia
I think it has traditionally been like that.

Loudmouth,
I didn't mean to imply that Putin was "innocent" but I also think it's fanciful to think that the buck for every death due to military activity, whether planned or accidental, can be slated back to the leader of any country.

If that was the case there's a lot of blood on just a few hands and we could achieve world peace very easily.

If they knew the target was a civilian aircraft would the same order have been given?

The fate of Iran Air Flight 655 - shot down by the US in 1988 did not result in an official apology.
Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114- shot down by Israeli fighters in 1973 was dismissed as an "error of judgment".

Likewise the dozen or so other incidents involving attacks on commercial aircraft over the last 30 years.

What would be the reaction if the plane had been shot down by Israeli troops as it approached their country from Palestinian airspace, or does the offender determine the degree of seriousness and outrage of the event?

Agronomist,

Thanks, but that is not quite an annexation and the Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas is in political union with the US but is not part of it.
Guam was surrendered to the US by Spain during the Spanish-American war of 1898 and later ceded to the US, again not an annexation.

Is Mise>> Darn, I missed it; which country did the USA last annex?

Is Mise, when you say annex, America doesn't annex nations in the clumsy heavy handed Russian fashion, but annex they do with the same game plan. If America has a strategic or commercial interest in a second or third world nation they destabilize the existing regime by backing opposition and installing a puppet regime.

Joe>> Putin was as peaceful as you suggest, none of this is his doing, wouldn't the US have fewer reasons to add to its number of bases<<

Joe I am not pro Russian....as you know Putin is ex KGB and ongoing carries all the traits needed for that role. Let’s briefly revise why the plane was shot down.

After the Orange revolution the “elected” governments were corrupt mismanagers and the economy bottomed out,the currency devalued.

Yanukovych went to the Russians and the EU looking for a deal. The Russian deal was financially better by far and did not have the entanglements of the EU deal so he went with the Ruskies. Protesters backed by America booted him out. Putin moves into the overwhelmingly Russian populated Crimea to strategically protect his only warm water port, which was Russian territory under the Czars until they lost it to the Ottoman Empire, winning it back in the 1800’s. Kruschev gave it to the Ukraine as a “protectorate” in the mid 1950’s..............they have more claim on it than America has on Hawaii.

Joe>> let's suppose that Ukraine has committed this vile act, and that the Russians are as innocent as babes: what would one expect to observe over the past week ?<<

Joe neither side are “innocent” with the KGB and the CIA running the show and the Ukraines are not convinced the Russians are their enemy given the April 2014 survey by the Razumkov Centre in Kiev that stated “despite” the aggravation of Russia-Ukrainian relations more than a half of respondents consider Russians a “friendly and fraternal nation.” So the Ukrainians are not as convinced as you that Russia is being predatory.

Wobbles>> Ignoring all the conspiratorial rants<<

Cmon Wobbs......conspiratorial facts are all I have posted.

If the people were consulted and agreed to it, it was not as annexation. If not it was. Read http://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/ccpr.aspx and think about the millions of decent people including thousands of Australians who gave their lives to get it on the books before dismissing it without a thought. Shallow crapola about "Lefties" or "the Jews" or faux-brave stuff about the Russians (who assisted the people of South Ossetia, Abkhazia and the captive nations of the Ukraine to demand self-determination through the ballot box) won't pay a skerrick of our debt to these heroes who embraced death to defeat the enemy programme of enslaving the world.

And as someone reviled often enough by Zionist Übermenschen as "Jew-hating" I'd stand with the rest of the world in contempt for Nazi attempts to brush aside the Holocaust. Google Babi Yar, the place is on the outskirts of Nazi-dominated Kiev.

"an·nex [v. uh-neks, an-eks; n. an-eks, -iks] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to attach, append, or add, especially to something larger or more important.
2.
to incorporate (territory) into the domain of a city, country, or state: Germany annexed part of Czechoslovakia.
3.
to take or appropriate, especially without permission.
4.
to attach as an attribute, condition, or consequence.
noun ...."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/annex

So what was the last country that the USA annexed?

Nuke Russia -- problem solved.

RIR,

I think they thought about that many decades ago, but someone told them that the Russians also had similar weapons.

Now that you mention them, the 1994 Budapest Treaty, of Russia, the Ukraine, France, the US and Britain (I think) agreed to guarantee the safeguarding of Ukraine's borders in exchange for their giving over (to Russia) all of their nuclear weapons.

So how did that go ?

Joe

Well the debris of MH 17 does not match the actual photos of the plane.

http://humansarefree.com/2014/07/busted-mh-17-was-in-fact-lost-flight-mh.html

Thank you, Arjay, that's my laugh for the day :)

Now Louthmouth, start refuting the link instead of you usual innuendo.
The actual photo of MH17 debris is real as I've seen it on MSM and one of the windows is missing, which does not match the photos of MH17 taken at an airport.

Arjay, the argument is that there was a window missing in the wreckage, when photographs of the wreckage clearly show the missing window?

But that is OK, because the photographs must be fake, because for MH17 to be MH470 the window has to be missing?

Also all those Australian passports and bodies have to be fake, because these people were not on MH470?

In fact why don't you go the whole hog and claim the whole wreckage is fake?

Agronimist, the missing window matches MH 370.This was shown on the MSM.MH 17 had an extra window near that door which defies MSM photos of the crash site. Please explain.

Array,

There is no missing window. It is present in the photographs of the wreckage.

Hi Arjay,

Thanks again, I needed a bit of a lift.

So ....... all the passengers on both airliners were what ? crammed on-board MH17 and then deliberately crashed into rebel-held Ukraine ? Otherwise, what happened to the passengers on MH 370 ? Or are you saying that they were the people killed on MH17 ? If so, what happened to the passengers on MH17 ?

Or MH370 was deliberately diverted to somewhere like Diego Garcia, the passengers killed there, and the diabolic Yanks or someone waited for an opportunity to fly the plane to Ukraine, shoot it down, and blame it all on the rebels ?

Meanwhile kidnap MH17 and fly it to some secret destination, where all the passengers are now being held. Or have they been killed too ?

Devilishly cunning.

Are you serious ? That really does sound crazy. Wouldn't it have been easier for the evil Yanks to simply shoot down MH17 over Ukraine and be done with it ?

Why do paranoids have to make everything so complicated ?

Agronimist it is all a matter of which pictures have been photo shopped and we don't have that info. On a track record of lies and deception the USA and Israel are grand masters.