The heart of JKJ’s confusion is his social engineering concept that human beings are just random non-collections in constant Brownian motion, unable to progress to any stages of organisation without an existing high command to direct them. No high command, no nation comes into existence. The true picture is that tribes form and operate collectively. If they’re smart they link with other tribes and the smartest coalesce into nations. Sensing the need for organisation they accept ruling groups and that means a state. Just a long-winded way of saying what I said before. More long-winded joining of dots, people accept a drastic loss of their individual autonomy but at times demand and win systems of law that bind both the rulers and the ruled. This is because ruling groups have power interests of their own counter to the interests of those they rule, and the ruled need to limit the power of the rulers. The basis of their acceptance is that the rulers provide organisation which includes defence against predation, internal and external. It’s a shifting equilibrium and its general lines are replicated in physiology, biology, chemistry, physics and everything up to cosmology.

And yes there is predation in a community, not just voluntary interactions and deals between free autonomous individuals. That’s why we have laws (enforced by the state). We have stepped levels of development and we recognise the development of civilised nations to be vastly superior (in the borderless individual autonomy of their citizens that they protect) to more primitive arrangement which allows predators (including the rulers) to sequester the autonomy which every individual and the health of the society has come to value and require. Predators and wannabe predators generally rail against the state’s power not because it’s predatory but because they are and wish their wings to remain unclipped.

PRE-EMpTIVE/NOTE\QUOTE..<<.The heart of JKJ’s confusion..is his social engineering concept....that human beings are just..random* non-collections..*>>

OH DEAR..COLLECTIONS[AS OPPOSED TO ACCUMULATION/OR XORRECTION\DISPENSING/DISTRIBUTING...[compounded by THE WORD NON*..AS THE PRO*..assUmpt..<<,,in constant Brownian motion,..unable to progress*..>>

who best measures progresssion?
[them gaining?../yet..not all gain]..ITS SO MUCH so final[grandious over assumpt?.
..<<..to any stages of organisation..without an existing high command to direct them.>>

huge/asumpt/non\mis-presumpt-ION?


<<..No high command,..no nation comes into existence.>>

not so..the people can make pact/to act-together]..sans a scape goat..or masterpolicing the agreement...[constitution..that warrents the authority..into license/that empowers\rather than creates a master race[the people judge the peer]..authority [authorization acts/then society validates or rejects the constitutionally-warrented act.

<<..The true picture is that tribes form and operate collectively.>>

thats absolutly/correct..the hunter-hunts/shares his spoil
the mother/feeds\the future..the father secures the present[and us oLDIES LIVE IN THE PAST]

<>>If they’re smart they link..with other tribes and the smartest coalesce into nations..>>

but in doing this surrender wealth and treasure for security
but if each JUST managed themself/how easy would the 'mods'-jobs..be?

<<>>Sensing the need for organisation..>>

some coluded to make the leaders/themselves]
so they unite inTO OTHER ALLIANCE/BOTH PRECEEDANT AND STRANGER THAN THE FOLLOWING..of the..*new RICHER.MORE\POWERFUL*-FAMOUS-PRETTY/peers

<<..they accept ruling groups and that means a state.>>
THE STATE..;..[ONlY CONTROLS/ITS OWN CREATIONS/
[ACTs/rules-regs/licencing etc]..

IT DOES THis by creating a personum..[called]..a person/UNDER THE ACT]..its legally you/B..ut only/under..the act\on paper..ONLY..on paper.

[ie..satanS REALM..exists..only..On PAPER]..

we..put\our signature[sig*nature]..uPON A DOCUMENT/GIVING THE WORDS ON IT legal but unlawful]...Author*-ITY...[the mark*/of\beast]

of course/the oppisite of paper-working/oppression is anarchy
[no governance/free]..native..ab-origonal..[or if sans culture..;.indigenous]..trees/plants..can be indigenous;to the area.

but no class=no cultrure

THESE..paper-men\..LEGAL-PERSONS../under-the act..HAVE BEEN GIVEN SPECIAL POWERS/permissions\licence;under the act/the persons\*BOUND BY THE ACT/..*ARE only/those created*../under the act

ie the paper/they created
not the flesh/blood being..[a person is created/by begging [apply means beg]..the law reads/a begger is presumed\to know for what he 'negs'[app-lies..4]

<<./Just a long-winded way of saying..what I said before.>>

me/too

WHY?.<<..people accept a drastic loss..of their individual autonomy but/at times demand and win systems of law that bind both the rulers and the ruled.>>

ANYTHING CRERATED/BY\THE ACT/STANDS UNDER [UNDERSTANDS]..THE ACT[IE REMAINS SUBSERVIENT/TO\UNDER/..'IT'...not/the people/IE ONLY\THE OTHER/ACTS[the asct\says/e;ect/vote\the..act..defines/controls/all;under\the/act..its all about standing.

i/have refuted\and been denied/acces to social contract/sans accepting unfair terms[like/this latest-one/I RECALL\THE ADVERTS/BUT..NOT MEDIA EXPLAINING/nor complaining.

SE IF YOU GOT SUPER..complusorilly/they take out insurance prenium..for extra's..these extras are attached to all super*[uness we SPECIFICLY*..opt out..[so if this is the first..you heard-their stealing it from your COMPLUSORY super

govt state/etc
CANNOT COMPEL US INTO COMMERCE
yet/third party/med insurance/tax on smokes..its endless
[most to bailout the busted insurance industry/and build up big cash funds they can APPROPRIATE[LIKE BILL CLINTON TOO THE PENSIONS/LEFT AN IOU..[WHAT?..YOU DIDNT KNOW..lol..ignorance of the law is no excuse bluey..SLUSH FUNDS MATE/BY WHAT RIGHT?

Lester1

“Of course nations protect citizens from predation. Nations are a collective of people. People form nations. When the nation is threatened, the people of the nation defend the nation.”

I never said they didn’t. You are confusing nations with states.

The point is, states don’t form because all their subjects agree to fund and obey them. All states get their revenue from a legal monopoly of using force to get the funds –whether or not you consent is entirely irrelevant. And the outputs of states – “policy” – is equally a coercion-based and non-consensual product.

This is what needs to be come to terms with, and it is not solved by merely assuming the issues away.

First time anyone’s accused me of being left wing by the way.

EmperorJulian
“The true picture is that tribes form and operate collectively.”

They don’t *form* collectively, they form from reproduction LOL.

And what does “operate collectively” mean.? If you mean they own or work the means of production in common, you’re wrong, simple as that. They may; or they may not.

“If they’re smart they link with other tribes and the smartest coalesce into nations. Sensing the need for organisation they accept ruling groups and that means a state.”

Only problem is your theory is completely unhistorical. You’re confusing the group as a whole, with the minority in it who claim a legal monopoly of aggression.

States don’t come about by some kind of contract between all or each of its members. There is no example in the history of the world of a state coming about in this way. It's pure fiction.

They come about from the strongest armed group over-awing all the competition, until it can take over the commanding heights of society and dictate terms of obedience and privilege; or from succession from such an armed group. Your identification of state with society has no basis in fact; you’re confusing A with not-A.

(cont.)

“And yes there is predation in a community, not just voluntary interactions and deals between free autonomous individuals. That’s why we have laws (enforced by the state).

You’re moving in a circle. You can’t just assume that the state’s input and outputs are all voluntary, because it’s flatly incorrect, and not even states claim that. Look up the definition of tax.

What you’re ignoring and neglecting is this. Clearly both states and individuals *can* act both consensually and coercively. But *only* the state has a legal monopoly of aggression. Therefore your presumption that the function of the state is to retard predation is exactly back-the-front. You are neglecting the obvious possibility that a monopoly of property expropriation based on physical coercion will be used to expropriate property based on coercion.

All you’re doing is confusing consensual with non-consensual transactions. When you look on consensual transactions, you’re calling them “predation”, and when you look on coerced expropriations, you call it “protection from predation”.

In any event, you have not made any dent in my remarkably fine thesis about ISIS as an incipient state. According to your theory, ISIS is just protecting all those people they’re shooting from the dreadful predation that would result if they preferred consensual transactions!

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