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The Forum > General Discussion > Underage marriage and other alien practices.

Underage marriage and other alien practices.

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Is mise,
I'm afraid that it actually does prove my point, the characterisation of the indentured labour system in Australia as "slavery" is incorrect and the Encyclopedia Britannica is not an unbiased source.
I asked you to find me the examples because I didn't want spend time searching, I didn't say there were none or that the procurers of migrant labour were saints, after all do either of us doubt the integrity of Caroline Chisholm or the other reformers?.
I guess we'll just have to agree that there are varying forms of slavery and I'll admit that I've broken my own rules on avoiding cultural relativism just for the sake of argument.
Of course there's no comparison between the Islamic slave trade and the European or Australian experience, European slavery produced (among millions of others) Usain Bolt,Scott Joplin, Sojourner Truth and Marcus Garvey. Islamic slavery produced nothing but a void in African history because the slaves were in modern business terms "consumables" and Australian "Blackbirding" cannot be characterised as slavery under any accepted definition of the term.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 16 February 2014 11:07:15 AM
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Jay,

You said "...."Blackbirding" is a myth, there was no slaving by Whites in this region, Papulanji Dreamtime songs tell of the European slave ships of the tropical coast but they're just confused because the dreamers can't tell the difference between the Asian and White ship's masters....".

"The Jason

The prosecution....arose from the voyage of the....Jason from Maryborough to....[Polynesia] in the summer of 1870 and 1871....The Jason had raised suspicions on its return to Maryborough in March 1871, after a Presbyterian missionary....claimed that the Jason’s crew had tried to abduct two Ngunan women and a man. Later, one of the Jason’s crew recounted that John Coath, the ship’s captain....arranged the abduction in January 1871 of two men from Tanna, and in February of nine men from a canoe off Epi. These men were landed at Maryborough. However, nothing came of these allegations until after the Jason’s second voyage to the New Hebrides in April 1871. This time the ship was carrying a government agent, John Meiklejohn, a respected Maryborough sugar planter. Witnessing the abduction of nine men and a boy off Ambrym, Meiklejohn had protested....only to be threatened with a pistol. He was handcuffed to a ring-bolt in the hold and, with the captured Ambrymese, ultimately spent five weeks there. Only on the day before docking in Maryborough was Meiklejohn released, and he was found by friends in a mentally deranged state. Investigations followed, and eventually led to Coath’s prosecution for kidnapping and assault for the abductions during the first voyage. There were similar charges for the capture of the Ambrymese during the second voyage, but the key witness, Meiklejohn, was so incoherent that they were withdrawn.66 However, at trial in Brisbane Coath was convicted on the charge of kidnapping the nine Epinese and was sentenced by Mr Justice Alfred Lutwyche to five years imprisonment and a £50 fine."
http://www.paclii.org/journals/fJSPL/vol04/7.shtml

I think that I have shewen that 'Blackbirding' was not a myth and that your assertion that people couldn't tell the difference between Asian and European ships' masters can also be consigned to mythology.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 16 February 2014 11:54:20 AM
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Is Mise,
No you've proven that the idea that "Blackbirding" was a form of slavery is a myth,look, as I said we either have a concrete understanding of what slavery means or we don't. As usual this issue is blown way out of proportion and has assumed all the dimenions of a myth, "Kanakas" could not be bought or sold in the way African slaves were, they could not be "freed" by a deed of emancipation or similar proceedings, they were indentured servants whose employment could be terminated or extended and for which wages and their keep were offered.
So as it stands in this debate we have a total of nine Pacific Islanders who were found to have been press ganged into service out of an estimated total of 60,000 indentured servants,how does this equate to slavery?
Even biased sources like wikipedia concede that "blackbirding" is a belief, which means it's not an established fact, what your information also proves is that it was neither widespread nor tolerated in the Pacific Islander labour market precisely because it was illegal and counter productive.
The indenture/slavery analogue falls flat on that basic point, it defies logic and so fails to mesh with the world as we know it.
Do you seriously think that agents who were doing the right thing would put up with slavers undercutting them?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 16 February 2014 2:07:10 PM
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Is Mise,
Let's just put this to bed, from your link:
"From its beginning,[8] the debate in Queensland and New South Wales (where business had a large capital investment in the labour trade) about this trade has been conceptualised and argued in terms of slavery.9 This is understandable: plantation agriculture, the colour and imagined African origins of Melanesian people, Britain’s criticism that the Franco-Portuguese trade in libres engagés masked slaving, and the coincidence of the early period of the trade with the American Civil War naturally meant that the accusation of slave trading arose. For the best and worst motives, humanitarians (including the Anti-Slavery Society),[10] missionaries, the Royal Navy, organised labour, nascent White Australians, the liberal press, Liberal politicians in the colonies and the United Kingdom, colonial officials (including Governors of Queensland), and even Queen Victoria described the labour trade as slaving. On the other hand, conservative politicians in Queensland and, of course, the planters and merchants who undertook the trade strenuously denied the allegation.11 For different reasons, recent academic assessments tend to dismiss it as well: the trade had appalling abuses, but thorough review of the documentary material and a more refined notion of ‘slavery’ show that the trade and service under indentures in Queensland did not, generally, deserve the description.[12]"

The first line of the next paragraph in which the author lays out his methods reads:"I am not entering this debate."
Translation; "In spite of all available evidence pointing away from a conclusion that slavery was practiced much less widespread and tolerated I intend to construct (via the techniques of moral relativism) from those very data an analogue supportive of the idea of slavery "
QED. Let's move on and discuss the Asian immigrants held by their Asian procurers in debt bondage in the sexual services, hospitality and building trades and the new Australian anti slavery laws drafted to combat those practices.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 16 February 2014 2:36:57 PM
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Jay,

Indeed let us move on from the time when even Queen Victoria regarded blackbirding as slavery, after all, as you point out there were only nine cases (where did you get that from?).
Can't imagine why the British wasted all that money having warships stationed in Sydney.

Perhaps the Brits might help us fight the modern slavery that you mention.
"....Let's move on and discuss the Asian immigrants held by their Asian procurers in debt bondage in the sexual services, hospitality and building trades and the new Australian anti slavery laws drafted to combat those practices.".

How can this be slavery, are these people forcibly brought to Australia or are they enticed as were many of the Islanders?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 16 February 2014 7:15:57 PM
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Is Mise, Queen Victoria was by all accounts a naive woman, a Liberal humanist and a "bleeding heart" who led a very sheltered life, quoting her opinion on slavery is akin to quoting other people with zero credibility such as John Pilger or Tim Flannery.
So we've come round to my original point, under "White Australia" slavery, if you absolutely insist on that term disappeared, now with the influx of Chinese and Indians it's making a return.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 16 February 2014 8:54:32 PM
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