Below is an article about a man charged with intercourse with an underage girl. I draw your attention to the last paragraph.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/child-abuse-charges-for-man-26-who-claims-he-married-12yearold-girl-20140207-327bg.html

Our state minister comments that she is aware of 'a large number' of underage marriages taking place.

If this is so, why are they not investigated and is it the same in other states?

Is it just another cultural practice we ignore because of multiculturalism?

We are aware that FGM has been ignored for 20 years, and it seems the occasional forced marriage, but are there other alien cultural practices that we ignore,

Every time we bend to accommodate another cultures practice we compromise our own culture. Not to even mention the effects on Australian born girls.

I knew it would be you Banjo as soon as the title fell in eyes view.
More power to you, rest assured no matter what the very lost say your view is shared, and by most.
Lets not bend to the PC truth blinding few.
I remember when the true left wanted equality for every female in the world.
And am saddened by the retreat from concern for women and girls condemned to a life of being second even third class.
My culture is under assault, not just from these who practice this dreadful trade in Children but from our few true lost left.
My views given here are a mirror one ones expressed today at a country market.
People from German roots and Greek shared those views.
NO GOVERNMENT DARE give Australians a referendum on Muslim migration because they fear the out come and know you and I are far from alone in being sickened by this type of inhumanity in the name of a God.
That never was part of western society

Multiple marriages and under aged brides are not confined to Islam; the ignoring of the rights of women and young girls has been taking place in Australia for decades, well before the upsurge in Islamic migration.

It is politically expedient to ignore the plight of underage girls in certain sections of our community.

Guess anyone?

It is politically correct to ignore the plight of underage girls in certain sections of our community.

There I fixed that for you.

It is also politically convenient to ignore and certain lobbyists [guess who and they swing from the guvvy teat] make sure of that.

The cultural war has been fought and lost. Too bad that the silent majority were too busy working, supporting their families and paying taxes. They were too trusting of politicians too.

Banjo I see a reluctance to post, maybe even to consider the horror these young girls face.
And bet at least a few here have fallen for the PC untruth that it is wrong to simply say this crime is horrible.
This mornings news tells of a planed mass murder/terrorist act in Sydney and the would be perpetrator leaving with a false pass port.
Other world news shows country's all over Europe seeing folk born there fighting in Syria and other wars.
We are confronting a truth, no one dare say is not true some would rather debate coal seam gas,use of coal, forest,s but ignore the dreadful fate of women and girls in the name of a God that never existed.

Belly,

Don't just stick it to Islam (which is a worthy target) but broaden the scope to include other ethnic groups in our society that also practice multiple marriage, underage brides and underage sex.

It is PCs, as OTB said, to ignore that many girls in Australia are denied the protection that is their right as citizens even though the Parliaments and the Law are fully aware of what goes on.

Belly,
It is ironic that this issue has emerged just as the AHRC is to inquire into 'kids in detention' which, I understand, is mainly young adult males trying to get out of detention by passing themselves off as under 18. Where is the AHRC in relation to underage marriages or forced marriages. Do they have inquiries into FGM or the sexual abuse of these little girls.

If we are to believe that the government knows about 'a large number' of under age marriages, one would think the AHRC would be demanding action to safeguard the girls.

Perhaps the issue is too difficult for them or maybe insufficient political gain from pursuing it.

I understand that Islamic groups are not the only groups that practice under age and/or forced marriage. Marriage celebrants have a duty to uphold our laws, but apparently they hold our laws in contempt and see their religious practices as above our laws.

Is this the society of our future?

Banjo, "Is this the society of our future?"

Yes and it is also our present. Peter Hitchens is right when he says that the cultural war has been fought and lost.

There was indignant rage that sought to topple senior careers because a young girl used an epithet that has been used by girls and women since time immemorial in body contact sports to describe male players of the opposing team and men generally. The man who pointed the finger at her to encourage her public humiliation as lessons to her and the public at large is now an Australian of the Year and probably still feeling 'gutted'. 'Gutted' is an important, oft-used term by those who complain about such things, just as 'violated' is owned by feminists.

However there is no self-righteous rage by feminists, 'Progressives' and their media columnists - except for a few journalists who are roundly condemned by the same critics as 'red necks' and 'racists' - of the child 'marriages', rapes, molestations, neglect and lack of education that have been endemic since the Whitlam government promoted its policy of indigenous autonomy. Highly credible medical professionals have been whistleblowers, but the multicultural rug has always been pulled over the dirty secrets. Multiculturalists are 'empowered' in politically correct Oz and know that they can easily get away putting the protection of claimed cultural traditions(!) ahead of the rights of aboriginal children under Australian law.

The war against what Peter Hitchens called cultural Marxism has been lost. Recently some of the notable gurus of that cultural movement, Greer and Dan Savage were among them, gathered on Q&A (ABC of course!) to cat-call and bully Peter Hitchens who foolishly believes in free speech and other quaint 'traditional' (the word is now a slur) concepts. Here is a clip of the victors of the cultural war demolishing Hitchens to the delight the usual Q&A audience and the chortling Tony Jones.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s3868791.htm

Peter Hitchens needs to 'evolve'(sic), allegedly and so do any caring Aussie who have the temerity to mention the negative consequences of the social re-jigging of cultural Marxism.

OTB,
The war against "Cultural Marxism" or totalitarian humanism is all but over, it's dying the death of a thousand cuts and Islam has been a key factor in it's demise.
The "Far Right" in Europe and Russia are now openly talking about alliances with Islam to exterminate the Jews, "Atlanticists",Liberals and Leftists.
Recall that Islam has been a part of Europe for 1200 years and it's worldview is fully compatible with other neo traditionalist models of European identity. In the next few years the extreme right will be voted into power across Europe, what they'll do is create the "good Muslim" identity and once again externalise all the perceived threats to European identity and work to eradicate them.

What does Islam want?

- To establish and enforce Islamic culture over any area it can control: the entire world if possible.

And what does Western civilisation want?

- Exactly the same!

Westerners are shocked at the possibility of Islam taking over Europe, but see nothing wrong about England enforcing its own culture on the continent of Australia. Islam had its way in the middle-ages, taking over large parts of Europe and placing Vienna under siege - similarly, England's better guns and ships prevailed as it took over Australia in the 18th century. Had the Ottomans better guns and conquered Vienna and from there continued to England, would you justify the enforcement of their culture over the British? Then what, other than better guns, justifies the enforcement of the Western culture over everyone who wishes to live on the continent of Australia?

Both cultures have cruel expectations of 13-year old girls: Islam wants them to marry and establish a household for their husband, while Western culture forces them to attend school in order to prepare them to become part of the "work-force", slaving away for the rest-of-their-lives in this cruel economic-game.

While nothing justifies forcing a girl (or indeed anyone) to have sex and/or otherwise serve a man she doesn't like (and his family!), nothing also justifies forcing her into becoming a cog-wheel, spending her life working, doing gray, low-paid and unrewarding work for heartless corporations in order to survive.

Islam, at least, recognises that women in general are less competitive than man (though there are exceptions for both genders) and (ideally) expects their husbands to work and bring home the income to sustain them so they never need to worry about finances and the like.

Which is the lesser evil? It is indeed a hard choice for a girl, but hard as it may, it must be HER choice and not that of the men who happen to have better guns.

In the case above, we've no indication (please correct me if I'm wrong) that it wasn't the girl's free choice to marry or that she is otherwise unhappy.

I am not ignoring other races that impact on us this way.
But if we confront the importation of a culture harming our own, no other gets to be worse than Muslim intrusion.
I am aware of the implications of my views but to of impending acts of terrorism world wide as second and third generations born in the west bring their brain washed selves home to terroris us.

I am not ignoring other races that impact on us this way.
But if we confront the importation of a culture harming our own, no other gets to be worse than Muslim intrusion.
I am aware of the implications of my views but to of impending acts of terrorism world wide as second and third generations born in the west bring their brain washed selves home to terror'is us.

Belly,

What about our home grown Aboriginal culture, that forces underage girls to marry old men and allows men to have more than one wife?

Australian Courts recognize Traditional Law and thus deny Australian citizens their rights under Australian Law.

One Law for all Australians.

Dear Belly,

<<But if we confront the importation of a culture harming our own,>>

A distinction must be made crystal clear, what it is that they harm:

Terrorists harm people and that's a clear no-no.
Preventing you from following your culture as you wish is definitely not on.

But if someone merely harms another culture - NOT the people of that culture nor their ability to follow their culture, then they hurt no one: culture is not a person or a sentient being!

In such case, they are merely competing - and the better culture shall win.

The Western culture is failing to provide our youth with a sense of purpose and direction and offers nothing beyond sensual and intellectual pleasures. If one feels jealous about other cultures who succeed because they do provide such a sense, then they should think how to improve their own rather than how to suppress the others by force.

Dear Is Mise,

<<One Law for all Australians.>>

So instead of protecting actual people, living and breathing people, you want the law to protect a culture, a particular culture in fact, the one who conquered this whole continent at the point of a gun.

Thus saying, you admit that this culture is not good enough to compete on equal terms, based on its own merits rather than on the might of the police.

Perhaps you meant, One Law AGAINST all Australians!

This man came with a student visa to Australia to study at Newcastle University.
Why then was he living in SW Sydney ?

When he has had enough of this little girl he only has to say three
times; "I divorce thee" and go and marry another one.

Frankly it is all very sus.

Ahhh, I forgot to ask, was the marriage registered ?
I'll bet quids it wasn't.

Isn't this just the old perennial chestnut periodically rolled into the fire by the usual hoary old chestnut Banjo.

Is it me or do you lot seem to have an unhealthy fascination with this topic, after all we are talking about underage sex.

Oh, well be that as it may, let me state for the record that I would expect a full investigation of the circumstances around what has happened to the young girl. One that would not only look at the actions of the student but also those involved in the marriage ceremony. If they knew the age of the child and were party to what occurred then they need to be held to account.

Now let's have a good look at the facts and just how dishonest you lot are tying this to Muslim immigration.

Firstly the male was here to study, he was not a migrant. Are you proposing we halt all overseas student visas from Muslim countries? This industry is second only behind mining in earning export dollars for this country. It is a huge factor in sustaining our standard of living. Or won't you go there because you are so determined to turn this into yet another immigrant bashing exercise?

The average age of first marriage for women is actually higher in Lebanon (28.8 years), than Australia (27.7 years).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriage

Early marriages tend to be less a feature of religion but more prevalent in poorer communities. Look at a highly Christianised nation like Uganda. The marriage age is legally 18 but the age for first marriage is below that in over 50% of them. More disturbingly the figures for those who were married at 10-14 years is, according to the 2006 census, still at 18%.

The heavily Catholic Western region saw a marked increase in those marrying below the legal age from the 2001 to 2006 figures.
http://www.culturalpractice.com/site/wp-content/downloads/3-2009-14.pdf

I am all for being resolute about our marriage ages in this country. Immigrant bashing shouldn't be part of it. Unless we want to ban New Zealanders as well.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/the-secret-life-inside-the-depraved-family-who-live-in-the-hills-of-a-quiet-country-town/story-fnixwvgh-1226781706111

Yuyutsu

'Which is the lesser evil? I ' Actually Yuyutsu
both secularism and Islam are both death cultures. Yes secularism encourages young girls to be sluts by the time they are 13 while Islam condones marriage even when young girls don't want it. Mohammed did have an 8 year old bride. Obviously the far better choice is for boys and girls to be taught about Christ and given the moral framework to make healthy choices in life. With Islam and secularism it is not a choice.

I hope none of the evolutionist celebrated the weekend by eating some of their ancestors. The last time I looked cannibalism was illegal (at least in Western nations with Christian influence). They tell me monkey's brains are quite nice.

Steele,
Yeah, the particular hoary old chestnut that concerns me is the government imposed ideology of multiculturalism, or should I say the baggage that came with it in the form of alien cultural practices.

Been on about this for years and will keep drawing peoples attention to it until MC is finally dead and buried. I recall the Howard government stopped using the term and was prepared to just let MC die. I also noted that PM Gillard raised the issue on a couple of occasions but it did not receive any public support and nothing further was done. Having read a few of the present immigration ministers speeches I am hopeful that he will officially put MC to rest, after he attends to the current matter of illegal entry.

We have given MC a good run for the past 40 years and have gained nothing tangible from it. The greatest lie ever was the phrase 'Unity in diversity'. We are now more divided than ever.

I have found over the years those that support MC only look at the nice things like beer festivals, dragon parades and children in colourful costumes, oh, and culinary choices. They put on rose coloured glasses and ignore all the baggage that some cultures bring and that we are expected to accept.

So yeah, I am against underage marriage, forced marriage, FGM, the oppression of women, cockfights and the eating of dog meat. To give an example.

In my opinion we should stop immigration of groups that will not/cannot integrate. Most migrants do integrate but there are a few groups that do not and we should not select them. It seems there is a too large of a gap in cultures.

Right now my interest in the underage marriage case is in the comments that Minister Pru Goward made about there being 'a large number' of underage marriages. This I have been unaware of and I think she needs to expand and inform us with more details. Has this been ignored for years and government turned a blind eye? Just another cultural consideration?

Banjo agree with you.
Only the PC would be dopey enough not to.

Dear Bazz,

<<Only the PC would be dopey enough not to.>>

I have never been accused of being a PC before.

But then, one doesn't necessarily have to be dopey in order to oppose the domination of a particular culture over a whole continent, this of the British-Europeans who think they are the paragons of all.

When I came, Australia was all too happy to receive me because it only cared for the economy, for the money I can bring in... oh, and that I accept allegiance to the Queen, which I did, but cultural integration was never a condition.
If you close the stable doors now, you will still find me inside, as well as many others who do not share your Western values.

Yuyutsu,

"So instead of protecting actual people, living and breathing people, you want the law to protect a culture, a particular culture in fact, the one who conquered this whole continent at the point of a gun."

I did indeed say one law for all Australians, and the last time that i looked "Australians" meant the citizens of Australia, not their varied cultures; I have no desire that the traditional Brehon Law of my people, the Muintir Murchada should be applied to us in Australia.

There is so much cr@p going down here it is not possible to cover it all.

However for starters, Australia was peacefully settled not invaded. Although some wrongs were committed on both sides, and likely the offenders were found and punished. If any would hold that it was otherwise, ie an invasion at the point of a gun, let them provide the physical evidence - bones and lead - because there would definitely be bones with lead shot if an 'invasion' ever occurred.

I have never heard of an of the hundreds of prospectors using metal detectors ever finding evidence of such conflict in Australia. However they do find plenty of evidence of convict work, farming, pioneering and of the US troops during WW2 of course.

Go for it anyone and show me the physical evidence of invasion. It doesn't exist and no guessing why not.

There is something dreadfully wrong with our education system if it is teaching that there ever was anything but peaceful settlement.

Yuyutsu said,
If you close the stable doors now, you will still find me inside, as
well as many others who do not share your Western values.

Huh, then why are you here ?

Dear Buzz,

<<Huh, then why are you here ?>>

Weren't you singing "We've boundless plains to share"?

I have a life here, a very good life: I have not come FOR the Australian culture, but DESPITE it, because the culture where I came from was even worse.

Nobody, including the Australian consul who interviewed us for immigration, ever told me that Western values are a requisite for living in Australia - and indeed they are not: here I am, writing against such values and nobody arrests me.

Dear Onthebeach,

<<I have never heard of an of the hundreds of prospectors using metal detectors ever finding evidence of such conflict in Australia.>>

Of course, no metallic weapons were needed in that battle: the chemical formula of the invaders' weapon of choice is C2H5OH, a most valued substance in Western civilisation.

Yuyutsu,

I did once find a large number of 10 gauge, Brown Bess musket balls in a gully at the rere of Macquarrie Fields House, where, presumably Governor Macquarrie's guard had been having a bit of target practice.

http://collection.hht.net.au/firsthhtpictures/resbyfield.jsp?term=Macquarie+Field+House+(Macquarie+Fields,+N.S.W.)&field=SUBJECT&searchtable=CATALOGUE_SEARCH_PICTURES&displayFormat=TABLE

You are right though that very little trace of early conflicts survive because the sword and the sabre were much favoured as weapons; no necessity to reload.

Another go!

http://collection.hht.net.au/firsthhtpictures/resbyfield.jsp?term=Macquarie+Field+House+(Macquarie+Fields,+N.S.W.)&field=SUBJECT&searchtable=CATALOGUE_SEARCH_PICTURES&displayFormat=TABLE

if it didn't work just click on it and the stub will take you to the Historic Houses Trust, lotsa great pictures.

Well it is not unusual, but we have run away from the threads subject yet again.
Why not we do not care about female mutilation.
Why should we consider the fate of young girls forced to wed men twice even three times, more, their age.
Westerners are being reduced to non caring people, not all of us but too many.
We are willing to ban coal seam gas and save the green tree frog, we are quite willing to complain about Crunulla and hide the evidence, years of racial taunts ,from the children of migrants.
Aimed at Australia, but we can not muster the will to take a stand against a culture from the dark ages that treats females as sexual slaves.
A read this morning of the British press shows increasing WASP recruitment in to a religion that teaches them to hate why ignore that?

To get back on subject, the OP said "Every time we bend to accommodate another cultures practice we compromise our own culture. Not to even mention the effects on Australian born girls."

Which is very true, and denying Indigenous Australians their rights as Australian citizens compromises our own culture.
It is not only the Muslims in our society that have practices that are against the law, FGM for instance is also practiced by some Christians.

"Medical anthropologist Carla Obermeyer writes:
Regarding religious differences, it is now generally recognized that even though a number of the countries where female genital surgeries are found are predominantly Muslim, the practices are not prescribed by Islam and are, in fact, found among non-Muslim groups such as Coptic Christians of Egypt, several Christian groups in Kenya, and the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia. In CDI [Côte d'Ivoire], the prevalence is 80 percent among Muslims, 40 percent among those with no religion and 15 percent among Protestants, and in Sudan the prevalence is highest among Muslim women ... In Kenya, by contrast, prevalence is highest among Catholics and Protestants compared with other religious groups ... Thus, there is no unequivocal link between religion and prevalence. - Carla Obermeyer, 1999"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation

Is Mise, "You are right though that very little trace of early conflicts survive because the sword and the sabre were much favoured as weapons; no necessity to reload."

It is more than a stretch to believe that police (and common foot soldiers you believe?) were issued with swords and sabres.

But even if you do believe that, how come there are no bones exhibiting the trauma expected from the use of sharp weapons?

Yuyutsu, "Of course, no metallic weapons were needed in that battle: the chemical formula of the invaders' weapon of choice is C2H5OH"

You did make the foul allegation that there was invasion at the point of a gun. There is no evidence whatsoever to support that, which is why when challenged you said instead it was an alcohol invasion. That is a creative but fanciful excuse but no argument for alleged 'invasion'. Rather it demonstrates peaceful settlement where aboriginals had access to the recreational pursuits of the general community.

The Left and aboriginal activists have been adamant that 'indigenous' must not have alcohol restrictions. The argument rages with other aboriginal leaders who say that booze consumption by idle men and women on sit-down money contributes to the violence and other crime, particularly in their self managed communities.

It was a peaceful settlement. There is no other credible evidence that says otherwise, only the spin of activists, including the horde of advocates, academics, bureaucrats and so on whose daily bread and careers depend on maintaining a divide.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/21393281/ofarrell-welcomes-arrest-over-marriage/
Think from 7 yahoo site is great news.
And not before time.
It gives the news the *thing* that wed the 14 year old has been arrested.
15 years in prison then deported seems like justice to me.

Any offense against a child under 15 deserves the death penalty and I bet you if it happened there would only be the psychopaths that did it.

Look at the pseudo pedophiles that import child like brides from Asia to fill out their fantasies.

Then look at the missing children that are exported from Australia to the mid east and Arabian slave markets each year.

Just open your eyes and look,

Chris,
Am interested, can you give any references or links to:-

a. Underage girls being imported to Aus

b. Underage girls being exported from Aus.

OTB,
Here for Police, some with swords.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=historical+nsw+police+uniforms&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=aJn5Upm7J8TVkAXvwYGIDQ&ved=0CEEQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=653

Swords as preferred weapons:

10th June 1838.
"When asked by the station hut keeper, George Anderson, what they were going to do with the Aboriginal people, John Russell said they were going to "take them over the back of the range and frighten them." The stockmen then entered the hut, tied them to a long tether rope and led them away. They took them to a gully on the side of the ridge about 800 metres to the west of the station huts. There they slaughtered them all except for one woman who they kept with them for the next couple of days. The approximately 28 people they murdered were largely women, children and old men. Ten younger men were away on a neighbouring station cutting bark. Most of the people were slaughtered with swords as George Anderson, who refused to join the massacre, clearly heard there were just two shots. Unlike Anderson, Charles Kilmeister joined the slaughter.[2]
Testimony was later given at trial that the children had been beheaded while the men and women were forced to run as far as they could between the stockyard fence and a line of sword-wielding stockmen who hacked at them as they passed. After the massacre, Fleming and his gang rode off looking to kill the remainder of the group, who they knew had gone to the neighbouring station. They failed to find the other Aboriginal people as they had returned to Myall that night and left after being warned the killers would be returning."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myall_Creek_massacre

The 'magazine' of a sword is never empty.

The father was a Muslim convert. Was his allegiance firstly to Australian law or to Islamic Culture?

Multi-cult-uralism is destroying Australia as if we do not uphold the laws we condone pedophilia and call it culture.

Is Mise,

Your clipping taken out of its context is misleading and you needed to go on further. But that wouldn't have supported your allegation at all. What you don't say is that it was regarded as a criminal act - the unlawful killing of a black person was no different from the unlawful killing of any other person - and the offenders were pursued, charged and put before courts.

That is more proof that the original settlement of Australia was just that, peaceful settlement. There was no invasion at the point of a gun. Aboriginals were not put to the sword as you would like us to believe. To the contrary they were to be protected as were the settlers from criminal acts.

OTB,

You doubted that swords were used in attacks against Aboriginals and that swords were common, I think that I illustrated that swords were commonly used.
Further reading of the link shewed the criminality of the act and also illustrated the public perception of such attacks against aboriginals.

Josephus,
Yes, in the same way we condone FGM, forced marriage, polygamy and the oppression of women.

If we do not enforce our laws, we actually accept what the law breakers do.

What I said was " child like brides " being imported by aged men living out their sick fantasies.
You see them everywhere 60+ year oldies with 18 year old, look like 12 year old Asian girls.
Its sick sick sick.
As far as your kids, male and female, being exported, you wont find published links.
These are the real deal white slavers.
Where do you think all those kids that disappear each year go.
All murdered locally ? Not likely.
I live in Cairns Mate and it is extremely rare that super yachts are searched coming in let alone going out.
KP brought a tonne of the real good stuff all the way from Turkey and was never searched.
Local garbage truck collected it in a garbage skip. Estimate value 1 billion dollars.
God know what he took out.
Top echelon cops know about it but when they ask question they are soon moved on.
No there are no links just the locals.

Banjo,
Sorry mate the above comment was addressed to you

Is Mise,

Fair enough.

Dear OnTheBeach,

<<You did make the foul allegation that there was invasion at the point of a gun.>>

As far as the poor aboriginals are concerned, there was no need for that - alcohol was enough, as well as other germs they had no immunity for. While white man acquired over millennia varying degrees of genetic resistance to alcohol-addiction, aboriginal people had none.

But the invasion of Australia does not end with aboriginals: the invasion continues till today, where at the point of a gun, no other humans are allowed to live in this continent unless they submit to the rule of Western culture.

What gives a particular culture the right to control a whole continent, other the incidental fact that in the 18th century England had better guns and ships than the rest - not only the aboriginals, but the French, the Spaniards, the Chinese, etc. How could that possibly be relevant to the sad fact that even in the 21st century, people are not allowed to settle in this whole continent unless they are welcome by the Australian-English culture and agree to adhere to its rules?

True, other countries do the same, but that doesn't justify them - more so in the case of Australia, with such a huge mass of land, mostly undeveloped, and relatively so little population. Who or what, in heaven or earth, allowed this culture to hog a whole continent for itself?

This completes a full circle back to the topic:

Sure there are things we dislike in the Muslim culture (and rightly so), but the Muslim culture too has a list of things it dislikes in the Western culture (and rightly so). Not allowing Muslims to impose their way of life over you and me, is more than legitimate, but by exactly the same token, what gives Westerners any right to impose their way of life over Muslims?

Yuyutsu
Nobody is trying to "what gives Westerners any right to impose their way of life over Muslims"
What we are saying is if you want to live in this country then abide by the laws, community standards and norms of the community just as we would have to do if we went to live in their country.
Child abuse and underage sex may be an acceptable standard in their country but it is not acceptable here and we have built our whole social structure with these standards.
It is up to us to protect their children now they are in our country.
Today there was a Lebanese charged with 25 counts of underage sex (12 years old) but he claims it is culturally OK because he went through some form of Muslim marriage.
He had only been in the country 2 weeks.
Sorry mate not in my country. I certainly didn't fight three wars to have a git like that live here.

Y I will never question your intelligence or your right to your view.
You have told us you came here because it was the lessor of two evils.
If I got that wrong forgive me please.
You know I find most of your posts obscure and hard to think as you do.
You could be as much a victim as the rest of us, not just here but western worldwide.
You will note Europe is having internal conflict as right wing party,s want an end to Muslim Migration.
Too if you look the great enclaves of welfare fed Muslim enclaves when they do come to the west.
Xenophobia, racist, all words hurled about by the silly left and others who refuse to see.
I believe with all my heart the world must confront religion, ask questions of ourselves.
Why do we let followers of any God twist our tails with demands they be free to think as they will but we must not do the same,Islam is a xenophobic religion.
In the end look at the pain and suffering even Christian Churches bought to the children and .
I wounder when man will stop bending to Gods that never existed.
Freedom of religion? freedom to do great harm it seems

Perhaps Y needs a police check to see if he abides by our laws and upholds them as he claimed in is citizenship pledge; or is he a liar seeking to undermine our culture and laws - a deceiver?

Dear Chris,

<<I certainly didn't fight three wars to have a git like that live here.>>

I am sure you didn't. I assume that you fought bravely because you considered it your duty to protect yourself and your loved ones - not in order to impose your culture on others. The former is honourable, the latter is not.

Dear Belly,

<<You have told us you came here because it was the lessor of two evils.>>

Not just two, but many. Currently, every country in the world oppresses its people to one degree or another. Australia is relatively low on that scale, but we should still remain vigilant.

On a personal level, my life here is good and I have no complaints.
Yet, since Australia is claimed to be a democracy, whatever it does is also done in my name, so it's my duty not to accept any evil it does: and ordering others how to live without their consent is such evil. Had Australia been under dictatorship, I could have said: "oh well, it's the ruler's karma, not mine, so I can just continue to live comfortably and enjoy my life" - but this is not the case, so I'm responsible.

<<Why do we let followers of any God twist our tails with demands they be free to think as they will but we must not do the same>>

Indeed, we should ALL be free. We should not allow them to twist our tails, but then we should not twist theirs either.

<<Islam is a xenophobic religion>>

I claim that it's their culture which is xenophobic, rather than their religion, but let's save that discussion for another day.

The point is whether their sick attitude justifies a similar attitude in us - I think not.

<<I wounder when man will stop bending to Gods that never existed.>>

Do you actually believe that God ordered them to be xenophobic? I don't, I consider it their mind's own evil!

Dear Josephus,

I pledged to abide by your laws, not to like them, agree with them or never seek to democratically change them.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I thought you might enjoy a small diversion regarding the question of nationality, oppression and religion.

"Preferring to fight with the Catholic Mexicans against the Protestant Americans, the San Patricios were the only group of deserters in American history to band together in the service of a foreign enemy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Patricio_Battalion

Ah the Irish.

Y may I say sorry to you for some slurs said here, in the end we are not all like that.
Seems stupid after my truly felt view Islam and most of its followers are better placed in the country they came from, please!
But apart from one other gangster culture from south east Asia this country rarely needs to fear migrants.
Surely Y you see the culture of Muslims is their religion?
Why please explain, do we give so very much to God bothers while ignoring the tragic results they bring .
Child molesters others telling us they go to heaven we to hell?
Europe gets their hell now while they live being leached on and told what to do/say fair dinkum why bend our knees to the fable that God, all of them loves us when all we get from followers is hate.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2014/02/12/13/09/new-arrest-over-underage-marriage
Refocus folks who is not in pure rage at the evidence in this thread that our laws and culture are being ignored
I have found a use for those boats in Darwin Harbor

Dear Belly,

If after due rational consideration, having consulted all your experts and sources of intelligence, you arrive at the conclusion that Muslims in Australia are dangerous, then you take the appropriate action to avoid being harmed.

You do what is necessary because you need to defend the life and lifestyle of yourself and of those you love.

You do not do it because you want to "show them the light", to convert them into law-abiding citizens, to educate them in the Western values or to protect THEIR daughters from that which they never sought protection from you (unless of course the did, then it's a whole different story) - why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own?

<<Surely Y you see the culture of Muslims is their religion?>>

There is for example one culture in the Middle-East and another in Indonesia. Both are Muslim, yet you cannot claim that the cultures are similar.

<<do we give so very much to God bothers while ignoring the tragic results they bring .>>

If God could be bothered, then indeed these Arabs calling themselves 'Muslim' would be at or close to the top of His list. Leave that to Him and concentrate on whether and how they bother you, your family and your community. If indeed your security is at risk (rather than just your ideas), then take action, but not because they believe and practice this or that, which should be none of your business.

<<who is not in pure rage at the evidence in this thread that our laws and culture are being ignored>>

I am not enraged by that at all.

I may be enraged if it was discovered that the girl was in any way coerced into this marriage, but no such claim was even made and I am sure that if there was even the slightest hint of that occurring, then the media would have been more than eager to tell us about it. It's a victimless crime.

Dear SteeleRedux,

Armed uprising is not my cup of tea.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2557175/SARAH-VINE-A-horror-children-dont-need-lessons-on.html
Y I think that is what I am doing in my posts in such threads.
This link maybe a little slow in opening but it gives an idea just how much the west isbeing used by this religion.

Yuyutsu said;
Do you actually believe that God ordered them to be xenophobic?

The Koran does tell them to be xenophobic if you include people of
other religions or none in the word xenophobic.

The Koran story is convert or kill. If they cannot kill then they are
told that Jews or Christians can not, & can never be, their friends.

They even have a special tax for non moslems.

Dear Bazz,

Now I am really surprised:

Do you actually believe that the Koran was written by God?

Y,
So you are not enraged by an adult taking sexual advantage of a child. You said you would be enraged if she was not a willing party. Do you honestly think a child of 12 has the ability to make a considered judgement about her actions. Parents are meant to guide them until they have enough experience and maturity to decide for themselves.

You seem to be of the opinion that every person or culture should be able to do as they please without an elected government to implement social rules.

So just where would you draw a line? Would you allow such cultural practices as honour killings, stoning of adulteresses, throwing acid over a former lover, forcing kids into prostitution, consumption of cat meat or dog meat, dolphin slaughter, bull fights, dog and cockfights, the right of man to beat his wife or selling of kids into slavery?

There are many cultural activities that are alien to our society and we believe an elected government has an obligation to safeguard our social standards. We also expect to comply with the local laws and social standards while in other countries.

Maybe you will tell us just who has a right to practice the culture of their choosing and what the limits, if any, are.

It is not a victimless crime. The girl was a minor and cannot give her consent to sex or marriage. In any case it is ludicrous to suggest that a child could make an informed choice in such cases. The law places the responsibility on adults to protect minors. The adults were aware of the law, or if not, their ignorance is no defence.

Obey the law or spend time in a cell with Big Bubba and his mates. His choice, his prize to win.

Yuyutsu, I can't decide if you are joking or not.
It was written by a paedophile bushranger by the name of Mohammed.
Claimed he was put up to it by someone called Allah.

Dear Banjo,

<<Maybe you will tell us just who has a right to practice the culture of their choosing and what the limits, if any, are.>>

No problem, though it may be a bit long, if you can bear with my systematic exposition.

All I say is based on just one principle - Non-violence (Ahimsa).

An ideal person would do as Jesus and turn his/her other cheek when attacked, rather than hurt another.

However, such persons are extremely rare (we usually call them saints), so we give ordinary humans a moral allowance for self-defence.

Self-defence allows one to use the minimum necessary violence in order to defend themselves or those under their care: it does not include violence in defence of others (which may for example disrespect the choice of the other, attacked person, to respond saintly).

When a group of people enters a pact to defend each other, members of that group (some or all) are authorised to act as agents for others in that group and exercise the above minimal violence on their behalf.

When no similar authorisation is given by others, it is immoral to "protect" those who do not belong to the group.

A body of people which exerts violence on others who did not freely consent to belong to it, other than in self defence, is morally illegitimate.

Children, as long as they are unable to express their wishes for themselves, are assumed to be represented by their parents, simply because they chose to be born to them (they may of course modify their choice later). The bond between parent and child is far stronger than with anyone else.

The only two things which may give a body of people the permission to protect a child, are the consent of a parent, or the consent of the child herself.

The formal age of 18 (or whatever) is an artificial construct of specific bodies of people, hence it can only be applicable within such groups, to those who have consented to belong to those groups - and meaningless otherwise.

(continued...)

(...continued)

The question of whether to allow others their cultural expressions is misleading, because one has no need in the first place to be allowed to do anything. Your correct question should be, "when is it OK to PROHIBIT certain cultural expressions" - and my answer to it is, "when it is a case of self-defence".

Note that defending a culture is NOT a case of self-defence: this is because "culture" is only a concept, rather than an actual breathing sentient being.

Now to some of your other questions:

I have been 12 once, so I know from personal experience that I was capable of considered judgement at the time. However, it is also true that some people are incapable even at the age of 80. That's what parents are for, and unless you present me with contrary evidence, it looks as both parents and daughter were on the same wavelength. The girl did receive guidance from her parents, which was to marry. Sure, your parents would have advised differently, but she chose to be born to hers, not to yours, and it's likely that the reason she did so was because she trusted them to support and represent her correctly in this situation, which your parents wouldn't.

I never expected you to allow any of that long list of atrocities. The question is, what on earth or in heaven gives you grounds to disallow these to people who never consented to belong to your group or to otherwise have anything to do with you. I presume that you make the assumption that the respective victims either have or would-if-they-could appeal for your protection: that assumption may happen to be correct in some of the cases, but it cannot be made automatically and each case should be studied carefully on its own.

You may legitimately try to safeguard your social standards, so long as in doing so you do not hurt others outside your society (except in self-defence).

Dear Bazz,

So we all agree that God didn't order anyone to be xenophobic. Then why do some people keep blaming God?

Yuyutsu,

I agree entirely and the group is known as the Australians and anyone who chooses to live within that group or who is born into it must adhere to the rules of the group.

Once again, well said.

Dear Is Mise,

The problem is, that in the general case (other than new citizens and those who want to join the public service, etc.), those called "Australians" were never asked whether or not they want to belong to that group and never gave their consent to follow that group's laws.

As for being born, while the parents can make temporary provisions for their child, once the child grows and understands the situation, they should be able to decide otherwise.

You seem to confuse the Australian continent with the state of Australia. They are not the same and there is no justification for confusing the two. The fact that people are either born, or live, or wish to live in this vast continent, does not imply that they consent to have anything to do with the state - and the state has no moral right to disallow them to live on this continent, except in self-defence of those Australians who in fact freely consented to belong to it, and then only if the others either actually harm them or place them at risk.

Go ahead and run a survey - how many of us would actually freely wish to belong to the Australian state as it stands, had it not been a condition imposed on us for living in this continent.

It now appears that Y condones pedophilia if one is not an Australian citizen but belongs to another culture but lives in the continent of Australia. Is he suitable to mix with children of non Australian citizens? He does not believe in one Law for all people

That's it Josephus, it is everyone decides for himself.
It is otherwise known as anarchy.

A system that has fallen apart everywhere it has been tried.

Y,
Those persons elected to make and enforce the rules of the group (government) have the right to impose or disallow certain practices, deemed to be of benefit to the group.

Those that chose to join the group(enter the country)should expect to abide by the rules of the group.

Underage marriage, forced marriage, consumption of certain foods and other conduct and practices (whether violent or not)are against the rules and our government has every right to make such rulings.

We go to a lot of trouble to inform those coming here about the rules that apply and we do not force them to come and we do not force them to stay if they do not like the rules.

Those that cannot/will not abide by the rules, because of their culture, from our experience, should politely be informed they cannot join the group.

The first duty of elected government is to uphold the standards of the electors.

I certainly do not accept that a child of 12 has the ability to make rational decisions regarding their future life.

I vividly recall the furore raised by many when a certain Jessica stated she was going to sail around the world, non stop. Remember she was 4 years older at the time. She achieved her goal but with much assistance from her team of many adult advisors.

Dear Banjo,

<<Those persons elected...>>

This assumes that the group's constitution includes elections (and presumably the rule of majority). It need not even be so, but whatever was agreed voluntarily with informed-consent by all members, is fine with me.

Currently however, belonging to a national-society is not voluntary. People are ASSUMED to belong, without their consent, merely for living in a particular geographical area (and a huge one at that): while the laws may stay, this should change!

I agree that those who cannot/wouldn't abide by the rules shouldn't be allowed to join a group, but merely entering a continent doesn't equal joining a group because no group may have exclusive rights over such a vast area (but please note that I only refer to the case where there is no reason to believe that the outsiders in question would harm society, otherwise it's a case of self-defence).

I can understand when the area in question was intensively developed by the group, such as a city, but not when it's a whole continent, largely undeveloped in its natural condition: fish and birds can enter freely and if we had a terrestrial border, so would land animals... except humans! Why would humans be treated worse than any other animal?

No, you don't need to give them rights, dole, food, medical aid, jobs, schools or elections, any of that, not even the right to drive on your roads, but preventing them from entering the continent (at the point of a gun), or kicking them out of their homes (if Australian-born) is simply not right!

Some 12-year olds are capable of making rational decisions regarding their future-life, others are not, but the same can also be said about 20,30,40,50,60,70 or 80-year-olds. In war-time, some 12-year olds ingeniously saved and sustained their younger siblings. Biologically, humans are designed to be able to survive on their own, out in nature from about the age of 8. That 12-year-olds are incapable of functioning in the highly-specialised, complex and competitive Western society, is mainly because they weren't yet sufficiently brainwashed to sustain this unnatural lifestyle.

Dear Josephus,

The idea of "one Law for all people" was a progressive one for its time: the aim was to prevent nobility from abusing their positions and harassing the common people who would have no recourse to justice.

But now its time is due and the above aim can be reached by different ways.

The practice was already questioned very early in the Jewish commentaries regarding "an eye for an eye": The Jewish scholars asked, "what if the offender already has only one eye, thus he would become totally blind - is that just?".

Certainly, no two people are the same and no single law affects two people in the same way. A law for example preventing the Eucharist would devastate Christians but not Jews and Muslims, while a law preventing circumcision would devastate Jews and Muslims but not Christians.

Obviously neither of those two laws is legitimate: had participation in national-society been voluntary, as should, then such laws would not be enacted because people would not voluntary agree to abide by a constitution that allows such laws to be legislated. As it stands, in Australia nothing prevents the legislation of similar laws.

Given that Australians in general weren't asked whether they accept the Australian constitution and had no choice in the matter (other than to leave their homes and seek a place elsewhere in the world, probably with no less government oppression than here), Australia is (like most, probably all other countries) an illegitimate rogue state.

While life here may be extremely comfortable, as it is for me, the moral implications of participating in a rogue state are not nice. Unfortunately leaving and going elsewhere is practically not an option because every other country is essentially the same, if not worse.

<<Is he suitable to mix with children of non Australian citizens?>>

Strange assumption that anyone who doesn't respect the state's law is dangerous to children... Why?

Firstly, I'm not interested in children in that way.
Secondly, even while not morally accountable to the state, I'm still morally accountable to God and nothing can be hidden from Him.

"Currently however, belonging to a national-society is not voluntary. People are ASSUMED to belong, without their consent, merely for living in a particular geographical area (and a huge one at that): while the laws may stay, this should change!"

Then they can leave, no one is forced to stay.

Banjo and Me are very far apart in our politics, but very much the same in this threads area.
He often reminds me, after I say I am considered racist for my views, I am no such thing!
The world is catching up with the views I and Banjo hold.
If our greatest detractors care to research just today,s events in Europe, they will find evidence that is true.
Switzerland has changed immigration laws.
Holland [NO! not the extreme right!] has a Government intent on stopping the self isolation of Muslims in THEIR country.
It is being said right across the EEC Muslims fled their country,s because their culture and religion made life there harsh.
And bought both culture and religion with them.
In time, even if it is at the hands of economic rationalist, the welfare costs and time and time again it is paid for very big familys who have no intention of finding a legal job, we will see the great harm being done to us, by our wish to be kind to folk who would not care for us if we landed in their xenophobic country,s.
A day will come that gives us reason to question those who did this to the west.
And too questions those who unable to see we import slums that are no go areas tell us we are racist.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2557796/British-Muslim-wife-admit-posting-videos-mocking-horrific-killing-Lee-Rigby-YouTube.html
Blindness is not enough to protect us from such as this.

Dear Bazz,

<<It is otherwise known as anarchy.>>

The freedom not to be ruled by others without consent.

Anything other than that is violence.

Dear Is Mise,

<<Then they can leave, no one is forced to stay.>>

As I just explained, this is not a specific Australian problem - it is like this all over the world, if not even worse, so there is nowhere to flee. In any case, one who is forced to leave their home because of the regime, is a refugee: who is going to accept Australian refugees?

It is offensive that anyone would even attempt to rationalise and excuse a sex crime against a minor. Even hardened criminals are revulsed by crimes against children.

Gaol and Big Bubba can instruct the child molester on the error of his ways.

Yuyutsu,

From your own testimony from your own lips Australian authorities obviously made a mistake offering you permanent residency and citizenship. I would like to hear from you specifically what the Australian government can do to prevent similar mistakes being made in the future.

Y once more I am sorry for the words used to describe you.
Yes I have often not understood your words and the meaning you want read in them, but we all should just try, to lower the harsh words I include me, use too often here.
And I am not unaware my words against Islamic terrorism, Muslim intrusion on western culture, are harsh.
I know some refuse to see my reasons for this.
But questions about me and my views should take in to account my nominating Nelson Mandela And Gandhi as the greatest men of the 20th century.
Even my youthful but full on activism against the South African Rugby teams visit.
So why do I join in threads like this?
It is my view PC and a left no longer following its once directions that all humanity is equal, has conned us and its self.
Targeting any one they think is xenophobic, silencing true thoughts and opinions by name calling.
We if we open our eyes let truth no matter how unpleasant replace mindless crap defending the worst in this faith.
Even denying our education that no God made us, we feather bed an illness that ,without doubt will give us much grief and pain as we too become like Europe defending folk in our midst who hate every thing about us.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2014/02/13/06/20/asylum-seeker-pleads-guilty-to-pool-gropes
Some cultures do not mix well.

<Immigration Minister Scott Morrison’s office confirmed in December that Nazari’s visa had been cancelled and court papers said he was the “subject of an immigration hold”.

It came after a Coalition crackdown on asylum seekers and bridging visa holders in trouble with the law.

Under the previous government some asylum seekers remained in the community while facing charges with revocations considered on a case-by-case basis.

Nazari, who is from the Hazara ethnic group in Afghanistan, was the 31st asylum seeker facing criminal charges to have his bridging visa cancelled under the new rules.

He will be sentenced on March 3. It is expected he will be deported on the completion of his sentence.>

Cop some gaol and then 'On yer bike, mug!'. Yay for a government that will stick up for the common folk who are sick and tired of the excuses of political correctness.

I do enjoy exploring how consistent the more strident on here actually are with their views so let's start with an easy one.

There was news today that the US ambassador to Japan was meeting with discontented locals about the planned continued presence of US soldiers on Okinawa.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-13/us-ambassador-japan-caroline-kennedy-okinawa-navy-base/5256854

These servicemen have over the years been responsible for many rapes particularly of young girls. One horrendous case that resulted in over 100,000 Okinawans marching in protest was the kidnapping, beating and raping of a 12 year old school girl by three American servicemen in 1995.

But these protests have a long history, the first being nearly 40 years previously after Sergeant Isaac J. Hart kidnapped, raped and murdered 6 year old Yumiko, her body was then thrown on to a trash heap. 6 days later another US serviceman raped a 9 year old. From that day to the present assaults against young Japanese girls is a pervasive feature of the continued occupation.

To the Okinawan people there is an evident theme of American servicemen stalking then raping young girls. It appears to the islanders to be part of the American military culture, indeed part of the DNA of the occupiers, and they want these people off their islands.

So I put the question to those contributing here. Do the Okinawans have the right to demand the removal of US troops from their island? If so should the Americans leave so that no further assaults on Japanese school girls are committed by these servicemen?

Dear Yuyutsu,

My earlier link was less about armed insurrection and more about religious allegiances being superseded by religious ones but it doesn't matter.

SteeleRedux,

That is rather obvious and clumsy false analogy. It is dismissed as irrelevant.

Remarkably, you don't seem to think that 25 counts of sexual intercourse with a child aged between 10 and 14 are serious offences. That is something you might care to mention in the flesh where men are present.

You are a disgrace. It is because of people like you that rape victims, especially the young and vulnerable fear to come forward.

steele,
It is a matter for the Japanese to resolve. What people do in other countries is their business. I am interested in matters that effect Australia. Although I am aware of problems in the Uk and Europe caused by immigration of people with vastly different culture.

The case of this thread may only be an isolated criminal action by those involved, but clearly they see no wrong in their actions. Or is it that they simply have contempt for our laws and society. The muslim Lebanese have a history here of anti social behaviour.

That is why I am interested to see if underage marriage is more widespread than the public is aware and if any particular groups are involved.

Dear Belly,

The issues discussed here are matters of principle, going well beyond the Muslim question.

As for the specific practical concerns about Muslims, I already explained that it needs to be addressed in an objective manner: if it is found that Muslims are a threat to Australians and their lifestyle, then appropriate action should be taken, as harsh as necessary. However, if it's merely a matter of disliking their conduct among themselves, then it's none of our business.

My personal uneducated hunch is that there is indeed a problem with Muslims threatening the freedom of Australians to pursue their lifestyle, but it's currently confined to Sydney, with no evidence that it's likely to spread to less-densely-populated areas, away from the big-money.

Dear OnTheBeach,

<<Australian authorities obviously made a mistake offering you permanent residency and citizenship>>

It may seem a mistake from your private point of view, but as far as the authorities are concerned, they are too much in love with the money I brought into Australia over the years and still do: they care mostly about advancing the Australian economy and tax revenue.

More so, as I keep to my pledge, they have no complaints. I have been contributing to Australia in various ways, which I believe, makes me an asset here rather than a liability. One of these contributions, but by far not the only, is by writing in this forum and suggesting ways to improve which Australian-born seem not to notice, probably because they were locked up with the Australian education system.

I was still young when I came here, so my views were not as robust as they are today. In fact they changed quite a bit since, in ways that I could not foresee myself, how less so the authorities. Those born in Australia may and do change their views just the same, for better or for worse, as the case of David Hicks.

The problems I address are universal rather than Australian-specific: almost every culture wrongly believes that it's the best and is entitled to exclusive access to vast areas of land.

SteeleRedux,
Forgive me if I get this wrong but weren't these people from Okinawa Japanese?
If so what right have they to align themselves with decent humanity. My father was a prisoner of the Japanese and he was a nut case till the day he died thanks to their barbaric treatment of the white races.
The yanks should have A bombed the whole lot of them when they had the chance.
Men, women and children they are evil through and through.

Yuyutsu, "It may seem a mistake from your private point of view,..."

No, that is not what I said at all.

You yourself are unhappy with Australian culture and so on, as you have argued in this thread, and that is what I observed. That being so, you have made it obvious that there is a miss-match between your expectations, world views and values and what Australians had to offer.

Because there is that miss-match in your case I have asked you specifically what Australia could do to ensure it doesn't happen again in the future. Who better to design the sieve than someone such as yourself who has so little to report that is good about Australia?

Chriss,

This is in no way intended as a negation of your father's experiences under the Japanese but I had friends, now deceased, who owed their survival as POWs to the kindness of Japanese soldiers who were their guards on the Burma railway.
These Japanese soldiers shared their rations and medicines with prisoners, they were a minority of course but they and others like them existed, so neither they nor their families deserve to be wiped out.

Suggested reading: "Small Man of Nanotaki", about a Japanese interpreter who risked his life to aid Allied POWs in Hong Kong for at least two years.

Is Mise,
If you want to love them do so, it is a free country but I remember what they did to the Koreans and the Southern Russians. Sooner or later they will be wiped out by the Chinese or North Koreans. I wait that day.

Chriss,

I neither love nor hate them, I'm merely pointing out that some of them acted with humanity towards their prisoners.

I well know what they did in China and Korea, but it is also a matter of record that some of Japan's prison guards were Koreans; I also had the experience of playing volley ball one day when one of the Katcoms (Koreans [soldiers] attached to the Commonwealth [forces]) got involved in a fight with an Australian and screamed out at him "I've whipped better Australians than you".
Under the protection of our Officers he was removed from harm's way.
We later heard that he'd been shot after his return to Korean command.

Dear OnTheBeach,

Thank you for your concerns.

Be assured that I am very happy in my personal life in Australia.

I am grateful to Australia for giving me refuge as I had to leave my place of origin, even though it did so for its own considerations. I was never officially considered a refugee, but that's how I see myself.

Whatever I'm unhappy with, is common to all humanity. This includes elements of the Western culture which unfortunately and stupidly everyone else wants to imitate. On a personal level, however, I was quite successfully able to create an environment around me where I can avoid most things I don't like: the first and easiest step being not having a TV (fortunately there's no law in Australia which forces you to have or watch one!).

When I chose Australia, I was looking for a place that does not exist, not in our times anyway. I was fascinated that Australia was still relatively behind, technologically, so I perceived it as a bastion of simplicity and common-sense, but after I arrived I was disappointed to see that this is fast changing, that the lure of the Western false-paradise has not skipped this continent.

However, I am not aware of any other place in the world that would match my expectations, views and values.

What I present on these pages are my moral concerns, rather than personal day-to-day difficulties: as Australia is considered a democracy, where whatever it does is supposedly in my name, it is my concern that if I allow Australia to act immorally, that also makes me personality guilty. The same can be said about any democracy, and in fact, one can argue even in a dictatorship, when one fails to attempt to uprise against an immoral dictator.

The points I present are simple: it is wrong to rule over others without their consent. It is wrong to hog a whole continent for just one culture. It is wrong to attempt to protect those unwilling to be protected by you. Should I accept this, would make me immoral myself.

Dear onthebeach,

You wrote;

“you don't seem to think that 25 counts of sexual intercourse with a child aged between 10 and 14 are serious offences. That is something you might care to mention in the flesh where men are present.”

Oh I would love to have you put that accusation to me in person and we really should see what might be arranged. Happy to pay for that ticket my friend.

I will add what an utter guttersnipingly cowardly thing to say. Not something I would have thought anyone here would stoop to, but perhaps expected from someone who has a record of harassing female posters off threads in this forum.

There are some other posters you address as males here whom I know are women, but it is not something I would ever reveal to you because of the unwanted attention you would devote to them.

Dear Banjo,

I thought the protection of children from rape might have been considered a universal concern but if you want to keep those concerns local then fair enough. We are dramatically increasing the number of US soldiers who are operating on Australian soil, especially in the top end. Is this something Australians should be worried about given the record of US servicemen in Okinawa? Are you able to assure us all that no Australian child will be sexually interfered with by these men? If you are then I will cease worrying.

Dear chrisgaff1000,

I am sorry to hear about the suffering of your father not only during the war but also subsequently through your childhood. I too had a father impacted by military service and it is a tough road for any family.

For you to have posted what you did gives an insight into the hurt and anger you still hold. The following story is about two of my great uncles and it is not given to pass judgement in any shape or form but just to be taken for what you deem it is worth, if nothing that is fine.

They were both taken as POWs after the fall of Singapore, both managed to escape and were recaptured and treated very badly. Both were warned what would happen if they tried again but oldest chanced his luck and ended up being beheaded on a beach on an island to the south.

The younger brother hated the Japanese with an absolute passion and regarded them as subhuman. This only seemed to grow as time went on.

He was riding his motorbike through the Tasmanian hills one day when it struck him that it was that mindset that allowed so many Japanese to have such little empathy for their prisoners as treating them as subhuman.

It seemed such a revelatory moment that the silly bugger went and became a preacher but that is beside the point. He ended up far more accepting of the Japanese, even meeting some of their ex-servicemen.

However it can be easier for those directly impacted to extend forgiveness, sometimes it is us offspring who struggle more because we feel it would be a betrayal.

All the best mate.

Yuyutsu,

Thank you for your detailed explanation. That was decent of you. I don't agree with your ideal. Further, it is unreasonable to expect to take what suits from our democracy and State, while maintaining a separate enclave within that refuses to accept the rule of Australian law for instance.

SteeleRedux,

What a rant. You wouldn't be the recently departed poster Poirot reincarnated would you? A 'sock puppet' as they say. LOL

What isn't funny are the lengths you go to to excuse and defend an alleged foul grub who sexually interfered with a 12 year old minor. You were desperate and cheeky enough to use an obvious false analogy in you attempt to divert other posters and muddy the waters. Being caught out for it you resort to ridiculous ad hominem. But your defence of that grub is here in B&W. It is here as a public record of your lack of empathy for the victim of a horrendous crimes committed against her.

Once again, you are a disgrace for defending and excusing cruel disgusting violence that stripped a minor of her innocence forever. Worse, you refuse to have him deported after his custodial sentence if found guilty. That would put others at risk of a rock spider. You have a lot of gall to try to bluff it out where only an apology and withdrawal would do.

SRD an oldy but goldy! the extremes and the lost left will try any trick to tell us we need to think as they do.
Japan and the rapes by a few US soldiers is nothing to do with this thread but nearly, as you wished, changed the subject.
The left is lost and a parody of what its founders thought it was about.
Increasing numbers are asking how can that lost tribe ever support or try to hide lack of woman,s rights?
A certainty haunts me, this religion ,some of its insane followers will kill in my country.
It is their nature, their ticket to a heaven that does not exist.
And note my leftist opponents, they are promised a reward 73 virgin sex slaves!

Steele,
Frankly, I could not care less if you worry about the presence of US troops on our soil. You only introduced the matter as a strawman anyway. If and when there appears to be a problem, I will look at it then.

The simple fact is that I cannot 'save the world' and so put my energies into local matters. We have more than enough problems here to keep one occupied.

I now note that one migrant women's group says that hundreds of underage girls are sent overseas to marry and that they are 'shopped' for on facebook. Apparently, it is claimed, they return with a spouse who is then granted permanent residence. This is something that is worth further investigation, as well as underage marriage here. I wonder if money is exchanged for the 'bride price'.

These are Aussie girls being used for an advantage.

Dear Banjo and Belly,

I was in no way intending to deflect blame from the student nor those who may have facilitated this including the so called 'cleric' who thankfully is being charged.

My first post here included;

“I would expect a full investigation of the circumstances around what has happened to the young girl. One that would not only look at the actions of the student but also those involved in the marriage ceremony. If they knew the age of the child and were party to what occurred then they need to be held to account.”

What I am objecting to is using the actions of a non-citizen to smear a whole group of Australians. Do we judge all US servicemen with the horrific child rapes and murders that occurred in Okinawa? I wouldn't have thought so since that would be unfair and stereotyping. But you lot are intent on doing just that here. You tell me the difference.

Dear onthebeach,

I may well be Poirot, perhaps you might like to find out, are you still keen to put your allegations to my face? I am interstate quite a bit so this is my email steeleredux123 at gmail.com, lets catch up for that chat if you like.

Just need to sort one thing out. Are you on any form of medication?

The reason why I ask is when you say “your defence of that grub is here in B&W”, and “you are a disgrace for defending and excusing cruel disgusting violence that stripped a minor of her innocence forever” and finally “you refuse to have him deported after his custodial sentence if found guilty” when I patently said no such thing, even given the most broad interpretation of my posts, tends to indicate someone a tad shy of fully capacity.

If you are confusing me with Yuyutsu you might be forgiven, even though they said little to warrant those accusation either.

If all is okay in that department I look forward to hearing from you.

Steele, you come up with some pretty poor anecdotes to back your case, first the child molester Charlie Chaplin, now this.
Based on hundreds of verifiable cases we can justifiably point the finger at adherents of Islam in the matter of illegal child marriage we can also, based on verifiable evidence of the Black male propensity to commit interracial rape point to Negro troops in regard to the ordeal of the 12 year old girl on Okinawa:
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/Newsbriefs/9601/01-24/gill_harp_ledet_cap.gif
I bet you didn't even know they were Black or that one of them, Kendrick Ledet went on to rape and kill a young White woman named Lauren Cooper before taking his own life.
We say these things because they're true, if they weren't we'd be corrected by other posters or the moderator.

Dear OnTheBeach,

<<I don't agree with your ideal.>>

Which is well appreciated - it is only proper that different people have different ideals, which is exactly why states should be kept small in area, so there is a sufficient variety and when people cannot accomplish their ideals in one state they have sufficient options elsewhere.

<<Further, it is unreasonable to expect to take what suits from our democracy and State, while maintaining a separate enclave within that refuses to accept the rule of Australian law for instance.>>

Personally I am in a different category because having actively applied for Australian citizenship, I am under agreement with the state of Australia. Whatever I do and whatever I aspire to change, is within the legal constraints of democracy.

In the general case, however, I see no reason why an Australian-born would need to accept the rule of Australian law. The concept itself is ridiculous, as if someone, just because they are born, are obliged to obey what others tell them, who are not their father or their mother and with whom they never voluntarily entered any agreement.

[Deleted. I'm giving OTB and SR time out. We don't need this petty sparring on the forum.]

Dear OnTheBeach,

Surely each living being has duties, but there is no basis to claim that duties are born of being ordered by others. As the imperative to observe one's duties is of a moral nature, it has nothing to do with what others may (or may not) do as a result, including if they place your body in gaol (which could perhaps happen to be their duty, but not yours).

Clubs and similar societies are very different cases: if I sing in a choir, then it is my duty to be extremely careful not to open my mouth or breath except at the precise split-second when the conductor indicates: but that's OK because I voluntarily joined that choir. States, as they stand, are not voluntary organisations, thus they have no moral right to order people around. That they are currently able to get away with such violent and immoral behaviour has nothing to do with the subject-matter.

States have no moral right to control such vast areas of land, as the land essentially belongs to God. States may control entry to cities and similar extensively-developed areas in order to protect their investment from pillage, but not whole continents. As such, they may not impose their laws on visitors (except those who wish to enter a city, etc). Now citizenship is a different matter that combines both rights and obligations.

While humans, like other species, are social animals and tend to cooperate for their survival, nothing dictates that they should assemble in such huge, multi-million groups, where they cannot even recognise the other members, or in any other particular manner.

There is no such abstract "THE law" up in the air - there are many sets of laws everywhere (including the laws of physics): laws only apply within a given society and receive their legitimacy by that society's constitution. Once you voluntarily join a society whose constitution includes the mandatory observance of ITS laws, then (and only then) it becomes your duty to observe them, no matter how stupid they are, such as the arbitrary and artificial "age of consent".

[See above. I'm just going to delete the rest of their contributions to this thread without comment.]

Is Mise,
I happen to have a lot to do with the 2/20 AIF which was the Changi POW brigade.
I will give you one instance of the Japanese ability to change sides when necessary and for their own benefit.
Some of my people were working as slaves in a Japanese refinery across the bay from either Nagasaki or Hiroshima when the atomic bomb was dropped and they watched it (with the camp guards) descend then erupt in the flame and smoke cloud.
The Japanese guards realized at that moment the war was lost so they immediately rounded up all the Korean and Chinese workers and executed them.
While the executions were taking place the rest of the guards were setting up a BBQ for the Australian POW's of prime steak and American beer.
They were all pally and back slappings as the bodies were being dragged away.
They did this because they believed that the rest of the world saw the Chinese and Koreans as the same social level as they did and they would not be missed.
Australians they said were real warriors and deserved to be helped.

Chriss,

No argument over some Japs changing sides when it was obvious that they could not win the war, but I was talking about Japanese soldiers who were on the perceived winning side during the building of the Burma railway.
There was no incentive for them to help Allied prisoners other than their humanity, likewise the Interpreter in Hong Kong who started his humanitarian work when Japan was riding a wave of successes.
The fact that he was a Christian and Lutheran Minister may have played a part in his heroic actions.

SRD this thread is important, some will consider it vile and unworthy, best they not bother to post.
Only a fool is unaware this religion and some at its heart wish us harm.
And that sadly horrible in fact we will one day see that harm with blood spilled in our country, too in a world increasingly asking why they ever let them in.
Not PC to talk like this, we should curl up in the fetal position thumbs in mouths and say nothing.

Or we could truly debate this issue without the insulting Green/lost left junk about US troops in our country and such dribble.

Know SRD you are not able to talk for most Australians.
Too that true left of left and greens do more harm than good, in fact they put conservatives in power by fracturing the left of centers vote.
And that it is my view until people confront this truth and the fact even our culture is victim to the mindless left of reality mob we are all your victims.
Proof of the sheer crippling taint of the greens is the up coming landslide victory to Liberals in Tasmania, a 20 year long lock out for Labor, sponsored by the greens madness
We talk here of insane and evil practice on children, not the random wish to forget about it and talk of something else.

Dear Belly,

It would add to the credibility of your arguments if you refer to that particularly dangerous group directly by their cultural background rather than by their religion (if they truly even have one). Just say "Lebanese" or "Arabs", etc. because it is simply not true (despite Muhammad's personal life) that Muhammad or Allah instructed anyone to marry young girls. While that could be a valid OPTION within that culture, even the strictest of Muslims is not obliged to marry at all (it is only in Judaism that celibacy/monasticism is forbidden and every Jewish man HAS to marry), how less so to marry someone young.

Y sorry but that is quite silly and I think you know it.
Islam is both a culture and a region their holly book is full of references to confirm that.
What do you think powers them if not their belief?
I know of no faith that to some extent, is not teaching separatism.
But not one that does it to the degree Islam does.
Humanity is suffering at the hands of non-existant Gods.
And as with the Christian acts against children world wide ,surely we must confront what a better world it would be without them.
And what a better Australia we will be if we stop importing slums and folk who hate us.
PC is evil, it has hurt much more than helped, and it alone stands between open honest consideration of what the majority wants not those racist and hate filled minority's twisting our tails on the way to the dole office.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2559426/Converts-Islam-jailed-terrorising-streets-Muslim-Patrol-banned-promoting-Sharia-law-FIVE-YEARS.html
The link is about England today.
But it will be our country,s near future.
If we are not going to talk about religions, what real benefit they are.
Can we talk about the downsides?
Humanity can be one if we stop Gods dividing us

Is Mise
One in a million means nothing

Steele,
Choosing not to reply to posts doesn't under anyone's skin and unfortunately for you there's nothing you can write which would contradict the message I'm sending because it's the truth.
At it's most basic level I can prove that people are fundamentally unequal, that myriad consensual groupings of people are unequal and that the ideas, customs and cultures they develop as groups are unequal. You however have no basis other than supernatural belief or blind conviction based on narrative fiction with which to build your case.
Example 1: In the Middle East consanguinous marriages account for the majority of couplings in many areas, medical science proves that these marriages are detrimental to the physical fitness and mental competence of individuals and groups overall. Therefore such marriages are objectively inferior to out-marrying and the offspring born to first cousins are also inferior to other groups of people and the societies created by such behaviour are flawed, dysgenic and will never be equal, much less compatible with eugenic societies such as those found in this country.
Example 2: "Close the Gap", whereby those practitioners of the Papulanji Dreaming cult seek to sing into being an equilibrium between an archaic group of Homo Sapiens and a far younger race of Human-Neanderthal hybrids. Given the fact that the average lifespan of indigenous Australians has probably increased by about 25 years since 1788 and that overall their fitness as a group has been improved it's reasonable to expect that the "Gap" will remain static for the foreseeable future with only tinkering at the edges possible.
I could go on but as I've made clear, it's not a matter of convincing or "converting" anyone, exposure to even a small measure of the truth quickly guides the reader toward the conclusion that the emperor has no clothes.

Mnt Druit in Sydney, what a sole wearing dump!
Good folk mix with the opposite and being near poor is a given.
How did it get in this thread?
Well read the papers from the last 3 days, concentrate on the gang Rape of a young girl.
See the spot light on keeping racial peace not finding tho who carried out this awful crime.
Hear from both sides the concerns hate could explode at any time.
All true all unneeded we could have given some thought to planting two opposed groups in one spot, and we could have closed the gate to those who did this dreadful thing.
But instead we fight to stop hate driven gang warfare.
And some think we are racists?

Belly,
Let's not get all emotional about this alleged attack, the girl might not be telling the truth about being raped, though she's only 14 and it appears that the people who had sex with her knew that so there is still a case for charges being laid.
Women often lie about rape, especially gang rape:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/17/hofstra-gang-rape-hoax-st_n_289774.html
Timeline of recent false rape allegations in U.S.A:
http://digitaljournal.com/article/345396
Several studies show a repeatable conclusion that as many as 60% of rape accusations have no basis in fact:
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_2_4.htm

Belly,
Yair, ain't multiculturalism great. Underage marriages, forced marriage, ongoing hatred between ethnic groups, dog fighting, selling little girls to overseas buyers, to marry, cock fighting and oppression of women. whoops, nearly forgot Female Genital Mutilation.

All so some middle income people get to chose a variety of eating places.

The advantages are many and we don't even have to pay. Never a dull moment. First it was the Croats and Serbs fighting, Then the lebs attacking single Anglos, next the Sri Lankans were mixing it up and now the Africans and the Pacific Islanders are about to get to it.

Multiculturalism has brought us all this and more.

Banjo,
You forgot slavery, how many cases of slavery were prosecuted during the "White Australia" era? It's a fact that one of the motivating factors behind the immigration restrictions were the customs of Asian people's regarding indenture and forcible servitude which were abhorrent to both the Liberals and Socialists of the era.

Chriss,

One in a million is better than none but how about thousands?

Would you have bombed into oblivion the relatives, that were living in Japan, of brave and loyal American soldiers?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/100-442in.htm

These Nisei, American born Japanese, are an example of multiculturalism working.

The Rev. Watanabe Kyoshi was the name of the "One in a Million" and when Hiroshima was bombed his entire family were wiped out "....and yet he never showed any hatred or ill feeling towards a non-Japanese because of this...."

See: "Hong Kong Internment, 1942-1945: Life in the Japanese Civilian Camp at Stanley"
By Geoffrey Charles Emerson.

https://www.google.com.au/#q=lutheran+minister+in+japanese+prison+in+hong+kong

Jay,

How did you miss out on mentioning the slave labour that was the reason for "Blackbirding"?

Just a slip of the memory?

Is mise,
Could give me verifiable examples of "Blackbirding" with links to either newspaper reports or court proceedings if you please?
"Blackbirding" is a myth, there was no slaving by Whites in this region, Papulanji Dreamtime songs tell of the European slave ships of the tropical coast but they're just confused because the dreamers can't tell the difference between the Asian and White ship's masters.
The Japanese and Chinese pearl fishermen were taking aborigines on board as labourers then paying them in opium and grog, the Whites put a stop to the practice, that's the factual basis of the "Blackbird" dreaming songs.

Jay,

Now here was me thinkin' that it was a slip of the cerebal retentive process but it must be that you'd never heard of it, nor met any of the many descendants of blackbirded people in NSW and Queensland.

"3. BLACKBIRDING PROSECUTIONS

The slave trade laws

The responsibility for policing the labour trade in the Pacific rested with the Royal Navy, which, in the 1860s, permanently stationed up to six ships in Sydney Harbour. Its powers were limited: men-of-war were only able to seize ships engaged in piracy in iure gentium, for crimes on British vessels, and for offences under the slave trade legislation.
Through the 1860s the Colonial Office considered that the slave trade legislation would be adequate to address recruiting abuses in Melanesia although, treaties with other countries being limited to the Atlantic, it could only be enforced against British ships.26 Accordingly, when naval patrols first intercepted suspected Australian blackbirders in Melanesia, the slave trade legislation was immediately raised as the justification for seizing the vessels and detaining the masters."
http://www.paclii.org/journals/fJSPL/vol04/7.shtml

See also,
"....[Faith] Bandler's father, Peter Mussing, had been blackbirded from Ambrym Island, part of Vanuatu, in 1883, at the age of about 13. He was then sent to Mackay, Queensland before being sent to work on a sugar cane plantation....".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_Bandler

I've met a number of Australians whose ancestors were blackbirded from the Pacific Islands.
An inscribed copy of the book that she wrote about her brother " Welou, My Brother." [Bandler, Faith (1984). Glebe: Wild & Woolley. ISBN 0-909331-73-1] stands in my book case and is a cherished memento of the days when I was a bit of an activist myself.

Jay,

You have probably heard of Mal Meninga

"Born in Bundaberg, Queensland, Meninga is an Australian South Sea Islander, a descendant of plantation workers recruited or blackbirded to work in the Queensland sugar industry in the late 19th century. He is an official spokesperson for the South Sea Islander community.[1] He graduated from Maroochydore State High School. Before becoming a full-time professional footballer...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal_Meninga

Is Mise,
Sorry mate, I have a closed mind on this subject.
I have dealt with the misery of 8th Div POW survivors for too long to have one ounce of sympathy for the japs.
Back home their families all knew what their fathers and brothers were doing.
Fighting for the Emperor to enslave the white races for the glory of the Rising Sun.

Is Mise
If Mal Meninga is an official spokesperson for the South Sea Islander community perhaps he could tell his people to stop their violent attacks on white people or perhaps even better tell them to get the hell out of Australia.
Now that I know his racial background I can understand the viscous nature of his brothers attack and murder of his girlfriend.
Its in their blood after all they were head hunters and cannibals.
anyway Is Mise do you actually believe half the crap you read.
Try a little of Ion Idriess (The Drums of Mer)
I lived with them on Murray Island and they are still eating their dead unless you get them off the island real quick.

Chriss,

Many Japanese were just as ignorant of what went on in WW II as were their counterparts in England about British atrocities in Ireland in the 1920s.

If you think that it would have been justifiable to wipe out the whole Japanese people because of what was done to POWs and to civilians in countries that they occupied then how much more justifiable would it have been for the Russians to wipe out the Germans?
One estimate puts Soviet WW II dead at 10 million service personnel and 10 million civilians.
The crimes of the Japanese were less than those of the Germans by a significant margin.

"During World War II, Nazi Germany engaged in deliberately genocidal policies towards Soviet Union prisoners of war (POWs). This resulted in some 3.3 to 3.5 million deaths, about 60% of all Soviet POWs.".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_Soviet_POWs

Dear Belly,

Obviously it is not possible to be suffering at the hands of non-existant Gods, nor do Gods divide us (that would make a
superstitious conspiracy theory). Also, no God, nor even a prophet ever commanded: "Thou shalt molest little girls and cut off their genitals" - it is people who do all that!

We are dealing with people who also happen to profess to be "religious", but are they? Muslims from other cultures, such as Indonesia also profess to be religious Muslims, but do not behave that way!

You know in Israel, every common criminal - thieves, rapists, drug-dealers, extortionists, etc. when caught and brought to court they suddenly place a yarmulke on their head: their lawyers tell them to do it so they can expect a reduction in their sentence for being "religious".

<<What do you think powers them if not their belief?>>

The usual - lust, greed, jealousy, egoism, plus in their specific case, machoism (a form of false pride).

<<And as with the Christian acts against children world wide>>

Is that a Christian act? Did Jesus ever told them so?

<<PC is evil>>

I would say rather stupid than evil - it did start with good intentions, but because it had no religious/spiritual foundations, it lacks understanding of deeper principles, so it doesn't work.

Chriss,

I'm well aware of what Ion wrote in "Drums of Mer" and a number of his books are also in my bookcase, all with a nice little personal inscription. I first met him in Sydney when I was in my teens, he and my paternal uncle had been mining together.
I was rather interested in the Islands and he'd collected far more than he ever published.

I found the apparent ability of the priests of the Zogo le to communicate over great distances to be fascinating.

The Islanders' attitude towards the Mainlanders was, and is, interesting, particularly in Ion's description of the Dance of Death.

Did you know that on one of the New Guinea islands, that was under Japanese administration, the people still remember how much better treated they were by the Japanese Officers than they were by the pre and post war Australian officials?

Is mise,
The article you've quoted admits that slavery is not an accurate description of the indenture process,that the facts are disputed but like all good Liberals the author simply sidesteps the issue by refusing to consider any alternative viewpoint, see Steele Redux et al for examples of this tactic.
Based on the evidence you've produced the allegations of slavery are unproven, other researchers such as Keith Windschuttle have come to a different conclusion so we're right back at square one.
Have you heard of press ganging? Duping, coercing or outright kidnapping of workers was a common practice in the recent past.
Indentured labourers of all races (the vast majority of whom were White) were exploited and treated like slaves in the Australian colonies, just because the Papulanji Dreaming cult contains stories of "Blackbirding" doesn't mean that slavery as you describe it was practiced or that the experience of indenture was in some way worse for the non White labourers than it was for Whites.
The fact that Mal Meninga was born at all proves that there was no egregious form of slavery practiced here, presumably you know that the Arabs and Turks took an estimated 20 million Africans as slaves?
Where are all the descendants of those Africans? Where are the "African Turks"?

Chris Gaff said it all.
If we look at the posts the links we can see a total disregard for our culture and laws from SOME with in the community we speak of.
Look again and even those from that community who agree with us, first say BUT.
And if we wait long enough we will see, wait or not we will see our fears confirmed.
WHY.
It is human instinct self preservation why are we who see a danger ignored by both sides of government.
Sunday papers tells us the Federal government has hired a firm to find out on social media what our views are on immigration.
Well here,s hoping!

Jay,

"blackbirding, the 19th- and early 20th-century practice of enslaving (often by force and deception) South Pacific islanders on the cotton and sugar plantations of Queensland, Australia (as well as those of the Fiji and Samoan islands). The kidnapped islanders were known collectively as Kanakas (see Kanaka). Blackbirding was especially prevalent between 1847 and 1904. The Queensland government’s first attempt to control it came only in 1868 with the Polynesian Labourers Act, which provided for the regulation of the treatment of Kanaka labourers—who theoretically worked of their own free will for a specified period—and the licensing of “recruiters.” Because the Queensland government lacked constitutional power outside its own borders, the regulations could not be enforced; moreover, the fact that notorious and brutal blackbirders were able to retain their licenses seemed to indicate that the government was not seriously trying to end the practice. British government acts of the 1870s—especially the 1872 Pacific Islanders Protection Act (the Kidnapping Act)—provided for agents on British recruiting vessels, stricter licensing procedures, and patrol of British-controlled islands; these measures reduced the incidence of blackbirding by British subjects. Because of the continuing heavy demand for labour in Queensland, however, the practice continued to flourish. Blackbirding died out only in 1904 as a result of a law, enacted in 1901 by the Australian commonwealth, calling for the deportation of all Kanakas after 1906.".
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/68440/blackbirding

Maybe the Editor of The Encyclopaedia Britannica made it up, who am I to tell?
Seems strange that laws were passed about this myth of yours or that warships patrolled to enforce these unnecessary laws.

All the slavery in other parts of the World has nought to do with the assertion that Europeans didn't practice slavery in Australia or the Pacific; it was called 'Blackbirding'.

Is mise,
I'm afraid that it actually does prove my point, the characterisation of the indentured labour system in Australia as "slavery" is incorrect and the Encyclopedia Britannica is not an unbiased source.
I asked you to find me the examples because I didn't want spend time searching, I didn't say there were none or that the procurers of migrant labour were saints, after all do either of us doubt the integrity of Caroline Chisholm or the other reformers?.
I guess we'll just have to agree that there are varying forms of slavery and I'll admit that I've broken my own rules on avoiding cultural relativism just for the sake of argument.
Of course there's no comparison between the Islamic slave trade and the European or Australian experience, European slavery produced (among millions of others) Usain Bolt,Scott Joplin, Sojourner Truth and Marcus Garvey. Islamic slavery produced nothing but a void in African history because the slaves were in modern business terms "consumables" and Australian "Blackbirding" cannot be characterised as slavery under any accepted definition of the term.

Jay,

You said "...."Blackbirding" is a myth, there was no slaving by Whites in this region, Papulanji Dreamtime songs tell of the European slave ships of the tropical coast but they're just confused because the dreamers can't tell the difference between the Asian and White ship's masters....".

"The Jason

The prosecution....arose from the voyage of the....Jason from Maryborough to....[Polynesia] in the summer of 1870 and 1871....The Jason had raised suspicions on its return to Maryborough in March 1871, after a Presbyterian missionary....claimed that the Jason’s crew had tried to abduct two Ngunan women and a man. Later, one of the Jason’s crew recounted that John Coath, the ship’s captain....arranged the abduction in January 1871 of two men from Tanna, and in February of nine men from a canoe off Epi. These men were landed at Maryborough. However, nothing came of these allegations until after the Jason’s second voyage to the New Hebrides in April 1871. This time the ship was carrying a government agent, John Meiklejohn, a respected Maryborough sugar planter. Witnessing the abduction of nine men and a boy off Ambrym, Meiklejohn had protested....only to be threatened with a pistol. He was handcuffed to a ring-bolt in the hold and, with the captured Ambrymese, ultimately spent five weeks there. Only on the day before docking in Maryborough was Meiklejohn released, and he was found by friends in a mentally deranged state. Investigations followed, and eventually led to Coath’s prosecution for kidnapping and assault for the abductions during the first voyage. There were similar charges for the capture of the Ambrymese during the second voyage, but the key witness, Meiklejohn, was so incoherent that they were withdrawn.66 However, at trial in Brisbane Coath was convicted on the charge of kidnapping the nine Epinese and was sentenced by Mr Justice Alfred Lutwyche to five years imprisonment and a £50 fine."
http://www.paclii.org/journals/fJSPL/vol04/7.shtml

I think that I have shewen that 'Blackbirding' was not a myth and that your assertion that people couldn't tell the difference between Asian and European ships' masters can also be consigned to mythology.

Is Mise,
No you've proven that the idea that "Blackbirding" was a form of slavery is a myth,look, as I said we either have a concrete understanding of what slavery means or we don't. As usual this issue is blown way out of proportion and has assumed all the dimenions of a myth, "Kanakas" could not be bought or sold in the way African slaves were, they could not be "freed" by a deed of emancipation or similar proceedings, they were indentured servants whose employment could be terminated or extended and for which wages and their keep were offered.
So as it stands in this debate we have a total of nine Pacific Islanders who were found to have been press ganged into service out of an estimated total of 60,000 indentured servants,how does this equate to slavery?
Even biased sources like wikipedia concede that "blackbirding" is a belief, which means it's not an established fact, what your information also proves is that it was neither widespread nor tolerated in the Pacific Islander labour market precisely because it was illegal and counter productive.
The indenture/slavery analogue falls flat on that basic point, it defies logic and so fails to mesh with the world as we know it.
Do you seriously think that agents who were doing the right thing would put up with slavers undercutting them?

Is Mise,
Let's just put this to bed, from your link:
"From its beginning,[8] the debate in Queensland and New South Wales (where business had a large capital investment in the labour trade) about this trade has been conceptualised and argued in terms of slavery.9 This is understandable: plantation agriculture, the colour and imagined African origins of Melanesian people, Britain’s criticism that the Franco-Portuguese trade in libres engagés masked slaving, and the coincidence of the early period of the trade with the American Civil War naturally meant that the accusation of slave trading arose. For the best and worst motives, humanitarians (including the Anti-Slavery Society),[10] missionaries, the Royal Navy, organised labour, nascent White Australians, the liberal press, Liberal politicians in the colonies and the United Kingdom, colonial officials (including Governors of Queensland), and even Queen Victoria described the labour trade as slaving. On the other hand, conservative politicians in Queensland and, of course, the planters and merchants who undertook the trade strenuously denied the allegation.11 For different reasons, recent academic assessments tend to dismiss it as well: the trade had appalling abuses, but thorough review of the documentary material and a more refined notion of ‘slavery’ show that the trade and service under indentures in Queensland did not, generally, deserve the description.[12]"

The first line of the next paragraph in which the author lays out his methods reads:"I am not entering this debate."
Translation; "In spite of all available evidence pointing away from a conclusion that slavery was practiced much less widespread and tolerated I intend to construct (via the techniques of moral relativism) from those very data an analogue supportive of the idea of slavery "
QED. Let's move on and discuss the Asian immigrants held by their Asian procurers in debt bondage in the sexual services, hospitality and building trades and the new Australian anti slavery laws drafted to combat those practices.

Jay,

Indeed let us move on from the time when even Queen Victoria regarded blackbirding as slavery, after all, as you point out there were only nine cases (where did you get that from?).
Can't imagine why the British wasted all that money having warships stationed in Sydney.

Perhaps the Brits might help us fight the modern slavery that you mention.
"....Let's move on and discuss the Asian immigrants held by their Asian procurers in debt bondage in the sexual services, hospitality and building trades and the new Australian anti slavery laws drafted to combat those practices.".

How can this be slavery, are these people forcibly brought to Australia or are they enticed as were many of the Islanders?

Is Mise, Queen Victoria was by all accounts a naive woman, a Liberal humanist and a "bleeding heart" who led a very sheltered life, quoting her opinion on slavery is akin to quoting other people with zero credibility such as John Pilger or Tim Flannery.
So we've come round to my original point, under "White Australia" slavery, if you absolutely insist on that term disappeared, now with the influx of Chinese and Indians it's making a return.

Are there no "Whites" involved in today's version of slavery?

None running brothels, protecting call girls etc., etc.

None visiting the brothels for a bit of 'slant'?

None bludging on sex workers?

None employing today's slaves in industry?

How quaint.

Is Mise,
Here's an article which makes an interesting point about the utility of myth on the modern era,"There are valuable reasons for telling certain stories in a certain way at pivotal times, but that doesn’t mean we have to hold on to them once they’ve outlived their usefulness".

Have We Got Matthew Shepard All Wrong? By Aaron Hicklin
http://www.advocate.com/print-issue/current-issue/2013/09/13/have-we-got-matthew-shepard-all-wrong?page=full

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2560518/Police-target-secret-network-travel-agents-doctors-taxi-drivers-help-female-genital-mutilation-continue-Britain.html
If nothing else the link shows a world wide intention to ignore the laws and culture of country these people come to, in an attempt to find a better life?
Or to make ours worse?

Jay,

You asked for a trial in relation to Blackbirding, so I gave you one,
"....However, at trial in Brisbane Coath was convicted on the charge of kidnapping the nine Epinese and was sentenced by Mr Justice Alfred Lutwyche to five years imprisonment and a £50 fine."

Was the trial all part of the myth?

You haven't made any comment on those that exploit the subjects of Canberra's anti-slavery laws.
Perhaps I have it wrong; the brothel customers are all Asians as are the construction industry bosses that hire the slave labour.

I guess that the Immigration Department is controlled by Asians as well or this exploitation of people wouldn't exist.

Is Mise,
The way Chinese middlemen do business is that they take a contract to supply workers or to undertake work then they sell the jobs to migrants or people working illegally, this is the norm in Asian communities and I've never encountered it in any other context. Dodgy Australian middlemen operate by taking the "cream" from loaded contracts or by taking secret commissions from clients, I've never heard of anyone extorting money directly from workers or holding them in conditions of servitude.

Your definition of slavery fits more exactly in this context due to the fact that women are bought and sold in the sense that their debts can be sold by their Madam to another brothel or a client who wishes to have a live in concubine, so to speak. The point is that prostitution is largely de-criminalised in this country so people choosing to work in that area don't need to enter into these types of agreements, they can register with the PCA and work from home or as an independent escort, alternatively they can work legally in a brothel and complain to the PCA or Police if they're mistreated.
. The Asian sex trafficking trade is an institution peculiar to their ethnic groups, in Europe it's women from the Eastern countries who are being trafficked by European procurers, it seems that this type of activity doesn't often cross racial and ethnic lines.There's probably a good reason why White Australian criminals don't try to stand over or take over the Asian brothels, ie the Asian gangsters are more likely to behead them or kill their families than other ethnic groups.
Man found guilty in sex slavery case.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/man-found-guilty-in-sex-slave-case-20091015-gz7h.html
Sex slavery revelations show anyone can run a brothel
http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/10/10/s-x-slavery-revelations-show-anyone-can-run-a-brothel/?wpmp_switcher=mobile
There was a case in which a White man aided his Thai wife in procuring Asian women and keeping them as slaves in a Fitzroy brothel, she was the Madam and was dealt with more harshly, he was charged with aiding and abetting and perverting the course of justice:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/11/1057783356087.html

Jay Of Melbourne and others,
Until we get rid of those left wing judges whose only grasp of reality is in their whiskey glass and start locking the genital mutilators and the victims families and the religious nuts that orchestrate the practices and the mullahs that promote the rituals for many many years with deportation at the end of the sentence we are not going to wipe out these vile practices.
These people actually believe their family is shamed by a non arranged marriage of a child bride.

Not only the left wing judges but also Islam.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=1IXsTKzOTvo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D1IXsTKzOTvo%26sns%3Dfb&app=desktop

It is worth watching and few will disagree.

Dear Is Mise,

Thanks for this impressive clip.

But it produces only one side.

It portrays Islam as all black - and Western civilisation as all white... which it isn't!

It points out the sins of Islam, but does not mention the sins of the West.

It attributes the Western culture as "free" and "loving their neighbours": great rhetoric - but is that so?

If the West wants to win over Islam, then let it compete openly on the battlefield of morality, in Kurukshetra, over the hearts and minds of our children.
Let it show its righteousness in actions, not in empty words.

And let the best win!

Do you advocate a level playing field in the contest?

If so the West will have to be allowed to threaten death to their unbelievers and seclusion for women and stripping them of their rights, especially so as the breeding can be leveled out as well.

I'm all for fair play but when our 'Under Tens' rugby team is faced by a team that has a couple 13 year old backs then some action needs to be taken.

Dear Is Mise,

Currently there are Western children who are convinced and attracted by Islam, as well as Muslim children who are convinced and attracted by the West.

The numbers are not definitive,
I am not sure myself which team shall win,
At the moment both look pretty sloppy.

If you really believe that killing unbelievers, secluding women and breeding like there's no tomorrow is going to win the hearts and minds of your children, then go for it - in my humble view, this is a losing strategy!

On the other hand, offering your kids an empty meaningless materialistic life with a dog-eat-dog race to vanity, is in my humble view a losing strategy as well.

Y you appear to be a thinker so can you give some consideration for my thoughts?
See I once was totally committed to Christ.
Yes thought only he could solve this worlds problems.
It took hard work, from would be Christians and never would be preachers to open my eyes.
I have grown immensely after taking responsibility for my own actions.
But here is my point, increasing warnings some minister do not believe in God [why if they did are so many suffering after childhood assault?]
Without a God just maybe our journey to mankind becoming one is closer to its target.
Gods divide us not unite

Dear Belly,

Jesus never said or implied that you should not take responsibility for your actions. I am glad you do take responsibility now.

Yes, the worlds' problems could be solved if we walked in the footsteps of Jesus, but one of these problems is that many speak ABOUT Jesus while only few actually follow his teachings.

"Without a God" is a logical nonsense (as there is nothing but God, who possibly would be writing these lines?), but perhaps what you meant was "Without people believing in God"?

Indeed for people to believe in God without following, is a mere intellectual exercise of little significance. Moreover, those who do evil in the name of God are worse than those who do the same in their own name.

Mankind can only become one by realising that they are already one - God - the substratum which already unites us all.

I agree that having a concept of God is not a requisite for a successful journey to oneness, yet it more often than not helps and encourages people along the way, rather than being an obstacle (which occasionally it is).

Finally, I am sure you do not believe in what you wrote yourself - that "Gods divide us". Would you actually believe that some powerful beings are sitting on the clouds and sew dissent among humans?

Humans do it to themselves, they and their concepts!

Yuyutsu,

"If you really believe that killing unbelievers, secluding women and breeding like there's no tomorrow is going to win the hearts and minds of your children, then go for it - in my humble view, this is a losing strategy!"

Just where did I say that?

Islam is an ideology that is aimed at the destruction of the unbelievers, the West, and as such should not be tolerated.

In the body of our society it is a malignant tumor and should be excised while there is still time for the patient to recover.

Is Mise
Every time this debate crops up I post this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y
Europeans and the peoples of the Orient are naturally fearful of Islam because we've borne the brunt of their aggression for 1200 years without respite. Islam is in a weakened semi dormant state at present but as the video points out, Islamic terror takes hold in a time frame of years, not centuries.
Yuyutsu, wrong, there is no comparison between Islam and Christianity.
It's estimated that Tamerlane and his army killed, that is to say murdered by their own hand 5% of the world's population in 40 years, no Occidental group has ever come close to that level of savagery.
Why do you think that Vlad Tepes was so brutal toward the Turks?
It was that kind of war, the Turks would behead every man and rape then enslave every woman and child when they descended on a village or town, Vlad was exacting an eye for an eye.

Dear Is Mise,

<<Just where did I say that?>>

Indeed I did not quote you literally: your exact words were "If so the West will have to be allowed to threaten death to their unbelievers..."

<<Islam is an ideology that is aimed at the destruction of the unbelievers>>

More like blasting the earth due to an intergalactic highway construction project; or a truck driving over an ant. There's no malice - you just happen to be in the way.

<<In the body of our society it is a malignant tumor and should be excised while there is still time for the patient to recover>>

That is possible when the rest of the body is strong and healthy. Unfortunately, Western culture cannot be so described.
However, had the body been strong and healthy to begin with, such cancer would not emerge in the first place.

Dear Jay,

I was not comparing between Islam and Christianity, but between Islam and the Western culture - which was hardly ever Christian.

I also didn't accuse the Western culture of being murderous like the Muslims, but simply explained that both groups have their share of different sins - not equal, but nearly equivalent.

While Muslims kill and womanise, Western culture in general allows all physical human bodies to survive till their natural biological conclusion (and often beyond), but without spiritual purpose, such existence cannot be called life, but only a prolonged process of dying.

Yuyutsu,
What you're describing is something akin to Stoicism, the Occident is primarily a philosophical construct, it lacks the supernatural elements of Islam but it's not empty. Islam is the triumph of the ignorant, it's no match for Occidental reason, logic and virtue, that said the low IQ masses of the Islamic world outnumber us two to one and there are eleven million of them in our midst already.
Whatever, we'll see how Pagan reason and logic stacks up against Islam in the next decades, we're better off without Christianity and it's weak martyrs.