Yes in my view we always will, this post is my view the ones I have always held.
Post workchoices even if Rudd wins in both houses it is my view unions face challenges.
But that no doubt exists they will over come them, first no union intent on success can not employ always only the very best.
Such out dated views as first on last of betray the membership, only the best are good enough to serve a members owned and operated union.
Some here know nothing of the union movement they did not half read and half understand in the papers .
But unions are not all alike and some must now learn to sit down and talk not make brutal war.
And while some actions of extremist unionists hurt the movement and find zero support from me, some on the other side are never unmasked for dreadful anti worker attitudes.
No payments of super are not even the tip of the iceberg.
ABN, payments are huge and at the end of the year under paid under skilled workers have big tax bills to pay and nothing to pay them with.
Safety is non existent even boots worn out with toes showing are on every contractors site.
Unions will always be needed to see fairness in a world that does not always care about that word.
Unions will survive and thrive but in new directions finding new tools and ways to serve members.
Lets talk about it.

Belly I started my working life in a new industry that had no union representation. We were well paid because the industry wanted to attract the brightest because the employers had to provide on the job training and quite frankly there weren't any experienced people to hand down their skills. There was great disparity in pay rates, pay was determined by how desperate the company was for bodies rather than how much revenue you created. There was no overtime pay, no part time work, an expectation of working until the job was done, an expectation of being on call 24/7, an expectation that women who became mothers would retrain into a different field, an expectation that all workers would retire before they got too old.

After a while employees of large organisations joined unions so that they could get pay rises. Telecom didn't deal with 30,000 individuals it dealt with a handful of unions.

After 10 years I was surprised to find that when people were called out at midnight they got call out pay, there was provision to come to work late.

After 30 years I noticed that women could arrange to work part time from 9am to 3 pm.

When I look at teachers unions, they are the only workforce where a woman's position is held open for 7 years while she takes maternity leave.

I have inhabited the seriously disabled ward of Royal Perth Hospital and heard the stories of union officials advised relatives of seriously injured workers not to sign the disclaimers the self insured company thrusts in front of them because the rehabilitation and compensation costs are greater than the relatives can imagine.

Yes we need unions to push for fair conditions in the work place, to represent workers who can't speak for themselves. The conditions the unions gain eventually flow through to the un-unionised workforce. In fact, many an individual contract is written after both parties have read the relevant award.

The "softly softly" approach does not work when sh-t hits the fan. Someone always gets hurt.

We bully in the work place, in community and the playground. We have critical social health issues that are not just caused by peoples responses to drought or cyclones.

We need to grow up as citizens, and as a whole nation - if we are to economically survive the coming decades as a nation in tact.

Australians run to lawyers often because they do not appear to understand the true meaning of advocacy.

We bully all those with a difference of opinion rather that learning and listening and helping to resolve issues, problems, and complaints. We blacklist whistle blowers, smear those advocating human rights... and then blame the media.

We need to understand advocates, and the role of the media as we do political parties, unions and lawyers.

As people, we need to learn more about how to stand up for ourselves and others. Co-dependance is a underlying cause of structural violence and other forms of violence in Australia. It is the 'invisable' social ill costing the nation millions.

The thing is the advocacy groups mentioned above are cheaper than lawyers and unlike lawyers... advocacy groups be they said through the media, or as consumers, political parties or unions... are often more skilled and familiar with the complexity of issues they work with... than most lawyers.

A egalitarian society is made up of many plural voices and we ought to welcome this fact as part of our "collective security".

Conflict is usually about two gangs and needs a third party and a fourth - and so on.... if the representation of all interests are to be understood.

http://www.miacat.com/
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Both posts interest me and I look forward to more, however not every one can fight or even stand for themselves.
My lifetime roll as a union activist has been to be there for them, I truly once thought I did not have the skills to be a union official.
Those skills however include an understanding that such people may be even better workers than those who can look after themselves.
We must not fail to understand industrial relations will always need a place things can be settled in , a failure of workchoices is the loss of the house of review.
However a union can settle issues long before that stage.
Evidence for that comes from hundreds of calls from employers who ask, can you come down? , I am not sure what I should be paying.
Or we have had a few injury's this month could you have a look?an extra pair of eyes can only help.
Believe me unions have a place for most fair minded employers.
And of course we must be aware those I mention in the starting post are having a great time under workchoices, care to differ?
Find a worker who is owed super, take the easy? path contact the tax office to resolve it, be prepared for a very long wait.
They are at best putting other forms of tax evasion first second and third, just maybe my view they are unconcerned is true.
I have to report to our posters in this thread about one in 20 manual workers can not read or write in this country ,that is both a reason they need help and a blot on our education system.
However some unions are well in advance of others in taking needless warfare out of IR.
OH don't get me wrong if fight we must then winners are after all are grinner's.
But it comes last tool in the box for modern unionists.

Answer:- NO

Thanks Gadget at the start I said some would have uninformed views or views not based on a true understanding, you proved my point early in the thread.
Now just one days planned work for one trade union official,tell me the unfair parts.
That AWA in another thread, over 800 have so far been signed, first job find out how they did not bring federal government intervention.
Visit a firm not paying travel or super as per the agreement they put in place 2 years ago.
Be there, answer the phone about ten to fifteen times this day and start actions as needed.
Put the notices for visits planned this week together and see they are faxed of .
If time permits spend a few minutes reveling in yesterdays polls and asking low income workers how they feel about unions/workchoices and Howard.

FACT ONE: Not every one can stand up for themselves and admitting that you may need support, is part of the learning curve.

FACT TWO: .Many people are often better workers than those who stand to advocate or represent them, on their behalf.

Good work Belly it. It's people like you, bothering too, that make the real difference.
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Unions, like many other advocacy groups, are part of the articulate minority. These are people who believe they have some sort of God given right to advocate on behalf of others - but on their own terms.
Advocacy is not wrong in itself, far from it. However what happens all too often is that it is not representative of the views of the majority. Instead it is representative of the views of those who think they know what is best for the majority.
There is of course the argument that these advocates sometimes get voted into their positions. The reality is often that they bully their way in and continue bullying to remain there. They stifle the capacity of others to communicate, indeed demand that they only speak through them and say what they want to say.
Rudd will endeavour to bring back compulsory unionism by the back door so that they can claim to be representative of what people want.
The reality will be very different.

Communicat your neo con views have been noted here in this thread and in the past.
It is my view in this thread you expose your total lack of knowledge of this subject.
A modern responsive union official who came up with an action that did not have majority support would not last a month.
It is true many need help in advocacy but even they know a false result.
I strongly hold the view no union that does not put the members first can survive.
It takes no brain surgeon to know those who work in the job know it better than any other, and they know if a union result is not right.
You do need to understand not all unions are walking the same path or using the same tactics.
Just this day, hours ago 2 union officials left a medium size business after being there by invitation to re write a good agreement for both the workers and the firm.
Find fault with that if you wish.
Put that type of unionism against John Howard's workchoices and you will find it easy to understand why this federal government is the outgoing one.
I find nothing wrong with the concept of a fair days wages for a fair days work.
And am proud to stand for those who can not do it themselves, and some times that is the boss!
Todays outcome was a result of help this firm got in gaining skills to win work in other Fields from our union.
And that work will benefit both boss and union members no black mail no thuggery no nothing but two way respect.

Unions... are too much 'them/us' for my liking.

Then, they are seen by dark forces as prime targets for takeovers and control of a nations trade. Those dark forces such as the Painters and Dockers etc.. thought nothing of murder to gain a foothold in the union leadership.

Then there is the appeal to the hip pocket. Unscrupulous "power at any cost" unionists with an ulterior political agenda, will promise all manner of commercially unstustainable reward to workers in order to get elected. They get the reward, it lasts for a short time, then the factory closes, and they are out of a Job.

By the same token, employers can be rather exploitative and cruel. Not all, but some.

So, in my view, what we really need is national renewal.

-A stronger sense of extended family.
-A greater awareness of the brotherhood of mankind
-A more caring attitude to others.
-A re-establishment of specific values being taught in our education system.
-Spiritual renewal at the heart, mind and will level.

The 2fold 'Law' which Jesus summed up was:

1/ Love God with all your heart.
2/ Love your neighbour as yourself.

The issue of employer/employee (including Slave/Master) relationships were addressed in the new testament. Even AWA's were addressed in one of Jesus parables. (believe it or not)Matthew 20:1-15

When we leave God out of our lives, we drift.
Anchorless, we float, battered and beaten by the forces of life, heaving this way or that, aimless, out of control to an unknown destination.
"If a blind man leads a blind man, will they not both fall into a pit"? said Jesus.

A little personal story.

Some 15 years ago I worked for a firm in Sydney, there were five of us on the maintenance staff to look after a 20 storey building.
The staff was reduced by one.
Some time after I was called into the ofice and told that I was not considered to be working hard enough,and that this was an official warning.
I pointed out that if it was in fact such a warning then I was entitled to have a Union rep. present.

"Are you in a union?"
"Yes, I'm not a fool".

Never heard another word about it.

It pays to belong.

BD once again you impose your God on a problem or situation.
And unless I read you wrong you claim evilness for a movement based on actions of one group within one union from the past.
Unions formed at a time children worked and died in coal mines, lived whole lives without gaining adulthood.
Workers at the time had been Little more than slaves or property.
The lights on the hill the 1940,s quote from maybe the greatest Labor leader spoke of a different time and that light no longer runs on kero.
To think unions are not different than each other, and that they never changed is unwise.
To think that every boss is fair minded and trust worthy is blind.
Even in a non union factory it is the fact unions exist that underpins wages and conditions.
BD ask your self if your God came back today, if he existed would he condemn me for wanting fairness for all?
And know unions are going to continue to do what they do now bosses unions will continue to want better for bosses .
Workers will continue to want a wage good enough to live on.
I had hoped the debate would have been deeper than the thought that unions are thugs and mugs using members as a path to power.
While improvement is always the only path to success and all unions have room for it facts say the rubbish some think about all unions is based on some unions past actions not all unions today.

Hi Belly
mate..I'm not bagging all unions on the basis of the actions of one.
All I'm pointing out is that by their nature, Unions are prone to or a juicy target for unscrupulous people.

Further...I'm not whacking you at all for wanting fairness mate. I also want that.
Notice, I didn't actually say 'Unions are bad'.. I just pointed out that they are vulnerable to exploitation. I tried to make the point that one of the factors which makes them vulnerable to manipulation is....'us'... when people promise us 'an industrial land flowing with milk and honey' many of us like to believe it is possible AND... enduring.

If Jesus were here today, (and He is in Spirit) he would condemn corruption on all sides. Employer and Union.

My 'point' is that the biggest problem is we ourselves. Because of that, I took a totally different approach by suggesting that if we get 'us' right first, a lot of other things will fall into place.

Please remember, at the cutting edge of the anti slavery movement were evangelical Christians such as William Wilberforce and others.

We can respond to injustice in two ways.
1/ Fight it with a violent and possibly armed struggle.(I live near Johnson Tiles.. ring any bells?)
2/ Call out in the name of God for people to re-think their whole lives and values.

John the Baptist too the 2nd approach, as did Jesus, and the Apostles.
It took 300 yrs, but the cruelty of the Roman Empire was transformed by the emergence of the young and unpolluted Church. Once Constantine made it 'politically correct' to be 'Christian'..... things changed and opportunistic people took advantage of this.

Tut tut Belly - your reaction just goes to prove my point.

Belly mate.. for your consolation and encouragement.. I DO see a very important role for unions, but only in association with Employers and standing as 'one'.. rather than us/them.

THE UNION ROLE.
On the day that unionists will stand with me at the docks of Australia, and hold up banners condemning the Chinese for their
-Pollution.
-Slave labor.
-Cruelty to employees.

Then I will totally support them :)

by the way, if we had more unionists like Doug Cameron, we should consider ourselves highly blessed.
If we had more like Greg Combe, I would consider Australia a wasteland worthy of total abandonment.

Ah BD no I must not say it! you do not pick the type of role model Australia would.
Again today my work took me to 2 firms who contract to the NSW government.
And under pay those who work for them, in work partly funded by the federal government.
Both do not have a code compliant agreement or award in place!
A require meant of both governments, the slothful NSW government department , was in fact my employer for 22 years.
It has a policy's that each contractor MUST furnish a statutory declaration to say it pays the right wages.
That is all, IT NEVER CHECKS TO CONFIRM , if I a trade union official can find this out how come my state government, yes the one I am a member of can not?
Yes minister was based on the NSW public service and government.
How come Howard's great IR system did not find it? or act?
Unions will always have a role to play stealing another's words even if its only keeping the B,S honest, clear that should read making them honest no easy task.
Communicat, a shot fired in the dark from you in unknown directions, you can do better.
BD I do not share your seal and am content to try to do my best without imaginary friends
regards

Belly - Keep up the good work, some one needs to curb the excesses of unscrupulous or ignorant employers and act as a mediator between upset workers and their upset bosses.

Hi Belly... well.. on your comment about sharing my 'seal' :) I think you mean't zeal there.. I'll add the word... 'yet' 0_- the power of prayer is stronger than you think old son.

Re those employers, it points not so much to 'unions' as the answer, but better government.

Sounds like we need a watchdog with teeth mate.. why shouldn't the government simply add some more people like yourself to the payroll and check up on these bad employers?

It all boils down to self interest. They don't care because they can get 'elected' without doing so. Lets face it, even though they are a labor government, the raw material for 'taking the electorate for granted' is right there in the number of safe labor seats.
Ask this.... how many of the 'non' safe seats would be swayed by beating a few more employers to death (figuratively) ? I doubt there would be many, but ask again 'How many of them would be swayed this way or that by some short term CASH handout, aaah.. that might be different.

So, with all of this, on the employer side and the worker side, selfishness is the root problem. We sometimes talk in Christian circles of the 'exchanged life' which is based on Pauls statement in Galatians. 2:20

"I" have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer "I" that live, but Christ that lives in me; and the life which I now live in the body I live through faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up to death on my behalf.

COMMENT. If you look at this verse closely, you can see that there are some profound ideas there.

-Not about 'me' any more.
-Its about 'Christ'.
-Who....loved me and... -Gave himself for me.

So, the focus is on self sacrifice and unselfishness, which are wonderful values to have at the roots of our social and economic structure.

Crimson hell BD! BEATING EMPLOYERS TO DEATH? I truly think you are a good bloke but do you think unions do that?
Even the worst actions of the worst unions surely do not include that?
Let me tell you what drives this trade unionist.
I am a product of a very large family bought up on spuds and pumpkin.
Living in far different times workers nearly had to hold their hat over their hearts to talk to the boss.
From my first day at full time work before I turned 13 I have bought the insurance of a fair go at work ,a union ticket with pride.
And given an honest days work for an honest days pay.
Your words in this thread prove to me you understand nothing of unions, nothing of workchoices, nothing of reality.
NOT ALL UNIONS ARE THE SAME yesterday I again did what I said found just a few who will never pay those who work for them fairly.
Today I meet a boss who is intent on getting a fair agreement in place with my union, a fair boss.
Do not look for evil in those who work, you as a Christian should know if money is needed for a good charity it is far more likely to come from them than the rich.
Unionists are just like you and me not as even you paint them.
Your God is your right I reserve the right to be a unionist while searching for constant improvement from the movement I stand by its right to fight for a fair go for workers.
BD how can we debate unions and not except the boss has so many unions of his own? and that they remain unchallenged?

Belly mate :) I said "verbally" not literally.. sorry, I'll avoid such blatant terms in future :)

I totally respect your line of work mate.. clearly your heart is in the right place regarding industrial outcomes.
What you mentioned about being brought up with spuds and pumpkin... I had vegemite sandwiches. But I don't think about much of the material lack of the past, what I think about is that I had a family which loved me. Family Love is the best thing.

If you can maintain the objective of 'fairness' which is fair on the employer as well as employees, then all power to you mate.

Right now, I'm at the cross roads of needing to employ someone, I have work running out my ears.. toooo much, and its sending me into a spin.. not knowing which way to turn to get it all done. But I'll avoid employing someone at all costs. I'll rope family in, friends.. I'll work around 'employing' someone as much as humanly possible. Why ? because as soon as I do employ someone, my costs go up ASTRONOMICALLY. Which results in me being less competitive, less work, and likely to go broke.

It's not just the employment costs, but if the work runs out because I've had to increase my prices, what happens to the bloke or girl working for me ? out the door..no choice.

But I digress. The thing is, you have to have LOTS of work to keep just one person employed, probably much more than is needed for one person, so that when you lose a customer, you can still keep your bloke employed. So the stress of always needing more work than you can cope with is a struggle.
This is why casualization is so important. You need flexibility to get help to cope with short term overload.

One bloke who works at my customers place says "Its great. come here each day and hold my hand out at the end of the week".. hah.. his company don't pay me for 60days if I'm lucky.

cheers mate