First I remain a committed ALP voter/member.
But this subject is under review, I must let truth have its say.
Labor giveth Libs taketh, too much on both sides.
Here the difficulty sets in, some are unable to even concead that truth.
Some want the lot no welfare or more welfare.
It is because I am a true believer that I want my side of politics to confront this area before we come in to government again.
We the ALP bleed votes because some of us are stuck in the nineteenth century on this issue.
Signals are being put out by this government it is about to confront this issue.
Labor must face the truth, if we do not lead in reform others will.
This country knows its future, just with the weight of soon to be pensioners from those like me Baby boomers is creating difficulty's.
If we get a start, and we have had such threads in the past, it would be good if we swapped ideas for true reforms.
I Labor to the thong straps see no reason to forever support work shy or free loaders and call for a job not a hand out as first step.

On this subject Belly there is plenty of room for co-operation, and
a non political approach. I know that the government is aware of the
economic problems down the track and I suspect the opposition does also.
The coming situation is not the fault of either party and each should
not try to blame it on the other.
Having to face it with such a large debt is a problem but there it is.

I think the economy will continue as it is now till about 2018 2020
and then start a slide to high unemployment of say 15% +.
There is a catch, finance, if it drys up for drilling it could happen before 2018.
Now there is a prediction Belly, so pin it on the wall and we will
look at it then and see how close it is.

I think the government is aware of that timing and they have been
told enough times that hopefully they now acknowledge it.
The governments, especially the US government, took steps before the
2008 crash to suppress the information because they did not want to
panic the stock markets, but they were too late, they panicked anyway.

It took a whistle blower from OECD's IEA to dob the US in.
Our governments of both parties were told but they did not want to
know, unless they already knew. That is why this time there is no
justification to make it a party political war.

Lets start by not giving well to do mothers the massive payouts that are promised. I think your unemployment figures will come in much earlier than that Bazz. The start is already in place. Which part of welfare do you attack. Pensions, Disability Pensions, Dole payments, No matter what part is attacked it is going to cause poverty and more living in cars.
How can you down grade a pension without first having jobs waiting. Youth unemployment should not exist, If they can't find a job they should do a national service and get some job ready skills.
You can't fill jobs that don't exist, so first you make jobs.

The very term "sustainable welfare" is an oxymoron of sorts, especially when used in the world of 2014, the whole society is unsustainable. Let me explain the mentality of a welfare recipient in a "working poor" family. As I've grown older I've become relatively poorer and my wife and I now receive the parenting payment even though our income has gone up slightly since 2003 when we were last judged to be eligible.
I began full time work in 1988 in a unionised workplace and working five and a half days a week plus doing on-call maintenance work on the side I was making about 48,000 gross and being taxed at some horiffic rate, last year I made about 52,000 gross and still ended up with a $4,500 bill I haven't yet been able to pay...yet we receive both parenting payments, the schools allowance etc.
This makes no sense to me, surely parenting payments should be for people on minimum wage and it's insane to cause hardship to those on the median wage by taxing them in the first place then reimbursing them via welfare.So unless I double my income it's basically not worth taking on extra work these days because if I go over 60,000 I lose benefits and have to pay more tax, only by working twice as hard could I get ahead and at 47 years of age doing more than 30 hours a week of hard manual work is only going to shorten my working life by years. I'm in a situation where I'm better off doing 15-20 hours a week until I'm 75, becoming foster parents or taking in boarders when our kids leave home and just sponging as much as we can get from the state.
Why bother extending ourselves if nobody else is expected to? It's not like material comfort is even that much of a status symbol in this country anyway.

Dear Belly,

The social impact of welfare dependency is high
in this country - even by international standards.
Australia has a high proportion of people living
in jobless families. I read somewhere that 690,000
children live in households where no parent works.

Australia's welfare system provides support to those
in need, but it must be sustainable to ensure that it
meets the long-term needs of our society.

We need changes to the welfare system for working-age
Australians that will address the high levels of welfare
dependency and will improve workforce participation.
Policies need to focus on self-reliance and the message
has to be that the best form of income comes from a
job, not welfare.

When Bob Hawke was PM, he negotiated a deal with the LNP not to debate immigration issues and the two major parties have stuck to that. They each believed immigration was a no win situation politically, so they left it to the party in power to set the agenda without debate.

I am not too happy about that as I want immigration to be debated. However could not social welfare come under a similar arrangement or approached in a bipartisan way.

Both major parties support social welfare and both parties are aware of the costs involved. There is little difference between the policies so be bipartisan and take the politics out of the issue.

Dear Belly,

I think there is a lot more we need to know to ascertain the true lie of the land.

What I think is certainly unsustainable is keeping the 7 tax cuts delivered by the Howard government and the further 2 tax cuts given by the Rudd/Gillard governments. A long while ago we decided as a nation that we would be a workable welfare state. Pensions, Medicare, parenting payments etc were all part of what we considered necessary for a humane and just society. This obviously comes at a cost but we appeared prepared to pay for it.

Now we seem to be seeing a lot more 'I'm alright Jack so stuff you'. Those with large superannuation stocks can't see why their earnings shouldn't be taxed to support those who never had the means nor opportunity to accumulate such wealth. Superannuation companies now such literally billions of dollars out of our economy in fees and commission, monies that use to go into the common weal to support our aged into their retirement.

Remember the promises of Super. It was to fix the perceived shortfall in revenue required to look after our aged. The question we should be asking is why on earth hasn't it?

We have allowed big financial corporations to change the way we talk about welfare. Perhaps we need to own the conversation once again.

Given that at least half of those who "work" produce either nothing, or nothing of real value - yet wonder of wonders, nobody starves, surely carrying on our back those who are not formally employed is not a serious burden on society.

On the contrary: those who are not formally employed receive only a fraction of the income of those who are employed but not produce any real good. By staying at home, we overall also save the costs of their commuting to work, as well as their office space, air-conditioning and other work-expenses.

The challenge is how to have more people share in the production of real and wholesome goods and services, rather than to increase the circles of those pretending (or self-deceiving) to be productive.

We should start with those who take much and give back nothing (or even first, with those whose employment produces negative outcomes) rather than with those who take little and give back nothing (or nothing of formal recognition).

< This country knows its future, just with the weight of soon to be pensioners from those like me Baby boomers is creating difficulty's. >

Don't tar all us baby boomers with the same brush as you. Most of us are not responsible for your difficulties. Most of us actually did productive work, saved a bit for our later lives and gave you the podium you now stand on to denigrate the rest of us!

You and that hive of scum and villainy you support blew all our hard earned wealth into the never never and now you want to claim we are a difficulty? You've got a god damn hide!

Take away the rights of pea brains like you and your lot to give out free stuff with moneys that never belonged to you in order to buy votes and the problem is solved. You could also stop importing an ever increasing army of freeshitters from far way lands that only disrupt our capacity to thrive and prosper and again, afford you a greater vote count. You're a fraud!

I do not have a solution and I think it will take the wisdom of Solomon
to come up with a solution.
Everything will become local and the solution might well be more
community orientated.

Raw Mustard your comment informs me of your true inability to understand.
The Goldilocks welfare system is badly needed.
As both sides dig in and the very left screams at me believe me things are not as uncompetitive as Banjo thinks.
Rechtub mate, please not food tickets we are better than that much better.
However reform is under way Labor cut deeply in to single parents and the left screamed.
Abbott intends to cut deeply and every one will scream.
Well his baby bonus scheme will confront him forever.

Australia needs reform we need true caring welfare to remain but we, those opposed to change risk the3 whole system being lost.
True work true wages and true work for the dole or no dole.
Hold your breath tell me how evil I am.
But in the end we have a seeming never changing base of about 4% long term unemployed, whys hould we subsidize third generation W A S P welfare?
We in doing that *take from the true needy*
A return on welfare can be found.
Superannuation do we all think it is a crime to self fund retirement?
Why not no tax on supper but no welfare in retirement, *some clear hundreds of thousands even millions is less pensions worth less super tax?
Who of us can not come up with a thought on how to deliver welfare in a cost effective way.
This Nation needs to try to keep our welfare but if it refuses to confront the need for change we risk it all

Superannuation do we all think it is a crime to self fund retirement?
Belly,
It's no crime to self-fund. It is only a crime in the Public Service where payments are topped up heavily & some Public Servants apparently don't have to contribute anything, the taxpayers fund it for them.

It is worth thinking about the fact that countries with low welfare usually have high crime rates.

If someone is on the dole and sleeping in the North Coast sand dunes or living in a commune and spending his/her time surfing then s/he isn't in the city and getting up to mischief.

A win situation at low cost.

If there are more unemployed people than jobs then the first saving ought to be the reduction of Centrelink etc.

Hmmm, Middle East passports with Australian residential visa stamp ?

One area of welfare we are going to have to cut back is medical.

I wondered about a hip replacement in my mother, when she was in her 90s. She never did manage to walk a hundred yards after the operation, which she could before, if only painfully. Perhaps we should just offer more pain relief.

I've had a fantastic life, which means I've worn the body out a bit. I could use one hip, a couple of knees, & definitely a new, or at less used heart. However should I get them, even if available. I can't really see it is the tax payers job to repair what I have worn out. Perhaps these things should only be available to those who have earned the money, & made provision to pay for them.

Perhaps we are going to have to remain useful for much longer if we want to be supported by a diminishing pool of workers. I can not do much physically, but I could still manage a national park, run a road gang, or drive a grader/tractor, if we had something more useful for those workers to do.

Sleeping in the dunes, surfing every day and even living in a commune would probably be a bit different now than back in the seventies. The commune wouldn't be self sufficient, all peace love and harmony, living off the land and appreciating small niceties.:)
These days we are too 'want want' and self indulgent. Gotta get tattoos. Gotta have plenty of grog. Gotta get high, and then smoke a few spliffs later to get back down. Hairdresser for those authentic dreadies, or the hair style and color, and maybe a few piercings.The only resemblance to the old days is the tins of beans, cause there isnt much left.
And no Is Mise I dont mean surfie guys and girls, maybe some, I mean 'legitimate' bludgers, who's parents gave them a good education, and the opportunities were probably there for them (dad found you a job working for his mate) but somewhere along the line the attitude of 'F.. you lot, im not conforming, its my life and I'll do what I want'. Comes into play and there comes the hand. The old reliable dole. And of course mum and dad 'cause they owe ya'.
So in effect, have never done a days work in their life, dont have any possessions except your adornments and a back pack, crash at your mates parents place, who look after you too. One of the mums will wash your clothes when you drop them on their floor. There's always the cash for special occasions from the family to keep your dress standard up to scratch. Not too bad, comfy really.
Job search? none of those crap jobs are good enough for you, and your not sure what you want to do yet anyway.
Now dependent on and taking for granted what others turn to as a necessity in time of need.
A not so exaggerated example of a certain type of welfare recipients.

It will not be all bad news.
People do adapt, and I don't doubt that the retirement age will be
raised probably to 70.
Even if unemployment is very high there are real world examples of
alternative economic opportunities.
Take the town of Totnes in the UK.
It is the town where the Transition movement originated.

www.transitionnetwork.org

Basically, it is a community do it yourself organisation, where it is
not up to individuals to do everything but the community as a group
organises their local economy. The town of Totnes even has its own
currency, the Totnes Pound which has been use for nearly 10 years.
The idea is to keep as much economic activity in the district as possible.

The "chuck it away and buy a new one" economy will be gone and those
with the skills will find themselves in demand.
Anyway read about the Transition towns, there is even one in Brixton
London, and see where it all might go.

jodelie,

and if such useless people are not supported they will turn to crime, they will be unsuccessful criminals and will end up in gaol, where their support will cost the State much more.

Belly,
Don't be so dismissive of the idea of a bipartisan arrangement between the major parties, stranger things have happened in politics.

Now I am not saying it will happen, but it could if the parties agree that their policies are close, as they are with immigration.

It would all depend on whether or not one side thought they could gain votes by opposing the other. Politicians think in terms of votes and themselves, not on whether something is beneficial to Aus.

there is little difference now in social welfare policies.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/23/welfare-review-could-recommend-stricter-conditions-on-carer-pensions
The link is only to show that the matter is under review.
I just have to comment on some contributions.
I saw this morning views from the far sides of this issue, even predicted it.
But like every single issue in politics while not satisfying all, a middle path exists.
And in the case of our welfare system failures and too waste exists too.
I would never propose an uncaring system.
But firmly think we can do much better.
No one cap fits all here, we must understand that.
We as a country should consider why we pay welfare to the well off.
And why we at the other end fail to stop those who chose not to work being leaches on us all.
Not every poor person is a saint, I know of a youth receiving carers pension for his grand mother, he sees her rarely.
His family every one, extended too, are third generation welfare receivers, by choice.
A job, once settled in to getting out of bed would even if they disagree be a blessing for them, and a saving for us.

.....I think your unemployment figures will come in much earlier than that Bazz. The start is already in place

You're kidding! Is this the same 579 that told me repeatedly to not worry, I was over reacting.

It's about time you removed your head from the sand and saw the real picture, you know, the one I repeatedly warned you about, albeit all too often to no avail.

We are in trouble and the warning signs have been there for quite some time.

As for welfare, my answer always has and always will be, quarantining, because it's stands to reason that if every dollar can be channeled towards its intended usage, then the dollars simply go further.

Y.......On the contrary: those who are not formally employed receive only a fraction of the income of those who are employed

Sorry, but that's simply not true.

The dole pays around $240 per week, FOR NOTHING.

A basic min wage pays around $600 per week, of which they pay tax, whereby the worker has to not only have the means to get to and from work, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.

Then there are the growing number who are under employed.

Then there are those NOT ALL who have two kids, paid for by others, who then proceed to piss away the gift they receive from the tax payer simply because they are cunning enough to work the system.

The answer for welfare reform is to stop the waste, because if you stop the waste the tax payer, the ome who provided the gift, get more bang for their bucks.

I also think that welfare should be earned, not gifted.

As for super, it should never have been left for profiterers to manage, it should heve been reserved to provide infrastructure for all to benefit from.

In fact, had this been done we would still own Testra, Qantas, the railways and the banks etc etc.

Another il implemented government policy supported from both sides.

Dear Rechtub,

<<The dole pays around $240 per week, FOR NOTHING.>>

You and I get more than our fair share from that, by not having those dole-recipients break into our homes. In countries where there is no dole, robbery is the daily standard and those who have anything to lose are afraid to go out and must live behind high fenced walls with armed guards. Or would you jail them instead and pay to feed them and their guards? Consider the cost of fortifying and guarding your home, your car, your children's schools, etc. and you will find that this is much cheaper!

Do you seriously believe that those people will quietly starve or have their children starve before they exhaust every possible avenue to grab what is yours?

<<A basic min wage pays around $600 per week>>

Those who receive the minimum wage are usually those that actually produce - it's those who receive the high salaries, in both government and corporations, that produce nothing of real value, it's those paper-shufflers that we should first aim to reduce, not the poor people's sustenance. Just consider for example the percentage of people whose employment is, directly or indirectly, just about dealing with money - that's perhaps around 50% of workers who do not produce anything real. Can we afford them?

The aim of economy is to produce those actual goods and services that we really need, such that we can eat, wear and shelter under, rather than useless numbers flying up in the air.

Let EVERYONE receive those $240/week (but nothing more), including those who currently receive more than 10 times as much along with other perks, but should instead be sacked because they create nothing good while sitting in their air-conditioned offices. Let this payment be unconditional, so no cheating is possible. I already explained this at length in http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15791#273170

Yuyutsu,
If it goes the way I think it will, the Transition Town way,
life will not be too bad at all. There could be work for all, even if
it is just working in your vegi garden. There would be no $200k bonus
men about, they might be working with their father-in-law electrician
repairing and installing solar cell electricity systems.
Perhaps he might be working at the town printers, producing the local currency.
Now Rehctub will be most useful, he could be at work in his shop and
spend part of his time preparing meat to be distributed to other
towns or assisting at the local cattle market setting prices.

Now Hasbeen, having such seafaring experience, could be doing boat
repairs. Belly could be set to work & run a team of young fit blokes
keeping the roads repaired so our bullock teams would not be getting
bogged. The road needs to be kept in good condition so the weekly bus
and the weekly truck delivery can get through.

Hmmm Greeny Philip, well he could always tell us what we are doing
wrong, but I think he might have to experience some starvation before
he enters the real world.

Now what will we give Foxy to do, well the Library is quite small
but she could work with the school teachers bringing the children to
an understanding of what books are available for the new world in which we live.

Me ? Well someone has to be boss, so I will nominate for that.
NO, I will make a crust repairing all those toasters, radios and if
it is still on air the TV sets.
I could rewind burnt out electric motors also if I could get the wire.

So you see it is not all that bleak.

I know this is a conservative site.
And I except that.
Recently I put myself in the sin bin.
I am aware my comments, hopefully in retaliation have been over the top.
Yesterday my spare wheel, bolted to the back of my small 4x4 was slashed and exploded.
It had a *Labor Values sticker on the back and side windows*.
About 4 times from Abbott,s installation they have been ripped of, always in a coastal town know for its well off ex big city folk.
I never went looking, why would I.
See I am not aware we are involved i8n a hate war.
RAW MUSTARD.
DID WE ALL READ THAT GR4UBBY MANS COMMENT TO ME?
Is it OK if I stoop that low?
Are we intent on dividing this country that much.
Do I test the waters to see if I can go that far?
Surely retaliation could put a fire under our culture?
OLO at some point must confront both me and hopefully raw mustard.
I wish to continue this theme, welfare it isurgent and this country must confront it
continued

The subject is not new for me, a lifetime of seeing the very poor suffer pushes me to post threads like this.
I surf the webs news papers its a love thing news information and education.
Recent British press,try the free to read ones highlight an intention to cut that country,s welfare, deeply.
My younger years are far different than most here living amung the truly poor and working very early as eldest son.
My Heros remain the Jack Langs and the best of true Labor leaders.
I reserve a special place for those I tru ly loath,those who used Labor and its followers.
But its not just Labor I call on here it is both sides.
Some here have never seen or known a truly poor person.
Some never will, and some never saw a generation of welfare collectors who run with gangs or thieve cars supported by our dole.
It is no use being blind pretending its the other sides fault.
I hope my first post and words I used gets some to under stand Labor gives too much.
Liberals take too much
And that the coming reforms are good ones finding a middle course

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2544276/Benefits-Street-proves-reforms-right-says-Iain-Duncan-Smith-Work-Pensions-Secretary-says-middle-class-families-shocked-welfare-ghettos.html
This link reenforces the west is changing old systems.
The dailymail has multiple stories about current debate in Britain

Butch you said unemployment was going to get worse just as you said, but it did not happen the figures were near stable to improving for the whole period of labor.
With the change we will see a change for the worse. 60,000 have already been promised unemployment by our fearless leader, and that is just a start. They backpedaled from sacking public servants, the more they sacked the more they had to reemploy.
By the end of year we will have 10% unemployed, and that is true to form, we must have a surplus of unemployed for some reason.
Where will that put your welfare costs.

Ahhh well 579 & some others what you do note take into account is;

YOU DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY !

I dont know the backgrounds of any of our illustrious leaders. Besides them being good god fearing Christians. Which is irrelevant to my subject. Im sure there must be some who have had to work hard for a quid, been almost down and out, surviving on meager offerings and who has an understanding for the struggles, that we middle class, working class, less fortunate and welfare recipients, deal with on a daily basis.
If not how can they be fair and impartial when deciding who deserves what and who deserves squat, when they cant say 'been there done that'.
When those in power want to introduce a proposal why not include to a degree, input of those the decision concerns, who Have been there and done that. Impossible to include all those affected, but a couple thousand dispersed throughout the the state, should provide helpful information, maybe a little education, with their final decision.
Saving advantageous policies for election time, when they could quite easily be implemented now, has a fraudulent feel, a little blackmail perhaps. Someone confident in themselves and in what they have to offer shouldn't need a crutch.
Remember the polie lady who said '... she could survive for a week on a pensioners wage'. Id like to see alot of them do that. A worthy new policy, and if they can do it easily, maybe realize that they don't need $6000 a week plus perks.

If they are looking to save on social security then start with the indigenous welfare that gets fed through the poker machines and poured down the throats in grog or smokes in cigarettes and drugs.
Look at the enormous amounts spent on indigenous health.
Then look at the indigenous refusal to work or look for work. Look at the young caste indigenous girls who look for a baby to float themselves on the sea of public money.

CrisGaff1000 my though long before starting the thread includes all welfare.
I note comments that talk of uncaring governments and seem against any cuts.
That if acted on, stops true welfare and in time threatens ability of this country to have any system.
I highlight the American street people.
We need to confront what we meant when this country and England first paid welfare.
Did we intend to just help the poor or see an ever increasing rise in both costs and people receiving welfare.
Are we capable of coming up with reforms that ensure welfare can survive.

I have the idea that Mr abbott sees medicare as welfare, along with public hospitals, and public schools. This may well be what they are softening you up for.

579 do you understand your stand point, telling off a mutual dislike for Abbott is trying to deny any change.
Be assured change is coming.
And Liberals are going to do it not Labor.
I just can not say loud enough or long enough we need that change.
We should have crafted it while in government.
We did not, in part because some refuse to see the waste the leaches and fail too to understand
*The system was never intended to feed parasites*

I know what you are saying belly. I was defining what i see as abbott's type of welfare cuts. After offering money for newlyweds at the same-time planning welfare cuts. Why not up the GST.

......If they are looking to save on social security then start with the indigenous welfare that gets fed through the poker

Too right Chris, but dont just target that group, target all welfare.

579, of cause Medicare is welfare, because if it wasn't, then we could all get to see the doctor for nothing.

Paying for something, then being denied the right to it causes contempt.

The first cut to Medicare should be any illness that is self inflicted, such as alcohol, drug and tobacco abuse along with ridiculously unhealthy diets.

Please note the word 'abuse' as this rules out those who enjoy the odd drink, maccas or even a fag.

If you wish to slowly kill yourself that's fine, but don't kill the system along the way.

No one would want to go down the path of the USA. We have enough crime and thieves now without making it compulsory just to survive.
The same with medicare, pensions are not structured for extra expenses of medical. You go on about the underemployed, with out welfare they will be far less underemployed.
Has anyone come up with a realistic solution or is this left to Abbott.

579, you talk about the US.

My wife was there las year, went into a very crowded bar, as they all are, and was amazed at the fact that the bar ladies always remembered the drinks for the group she was serving. She would simply wait for the signal, as getting close to the bar was impossible, then she would take the money from the stack on the bar, hand out the drinks and never get them wrong.

Funny thing is, she was on $7.50 per hour, BUT, if she did a good job, she got what ever was left at the end of the night as she survived on tips. She achieved this as she was highly skilled and that's the difference between here and the US, because here you get paid even if you are hopeless. Not only that, but being hopeless is insufficient grounds for loosing your job. It's a joke!

Here, hospitality businesses are dropping like flys because they can't afford the wages, especially penalty rates.

As for pensioners, where did I say they should pay to see the doctor, unless of cause they have a self induced illness.

Finally, I am not against welfare, just welfare waste. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

< Is it OK if I stoop that low? >
You do it every day!

Now you're implying I slashed your tyres and ripped off your beloved stickers?

Did you not imply that baby boomers were creating difficulties?
Somehow it never entered your mind that perhaps people like yourself and the state, particularly those crooks you undyingly support are responsible for the difficulties that are upon us?

Now your only concern is your crooked mates are losing money... er votes and blaming successful folks for detesting the type of larcenist you are. No one ever slashed my tyres or ripped stickers off my car. But then I don't advertise my undying support for crooked criminals either. Karma must be a bitch!

It grieve,s me to talk to you.
But how could you in I believe Victoria slash my tire?
Are you just wrong or lieing?
I am a baby boomer, even you must know the word boom says many more of us being born in those post ww2 years, sees a big inflow of those who are on the pension.
So plainly untrue are your words, our differences may be because you intellectually just can not bring understanding to the debate.
You charges are false/wrong your manners non-existent can we each avoid talking to or about one another?
Honestly and earnestly can we avoid one another.
Your sniper style of posting is something I can do without
May I assure you, you are in fact not hot stuff.

I never expected an answer.
The thought that I was making a bombing run on my age group, baby boomers is, well madness.
As the other charges are.
But as the thread is now likely dead it is a pity we did not delve deeper in to the changes about to come.
Labor hurt single parents, it was something that had to be done.
Liberals [shame about the baby bonus] will too.
In fact welfare is under review in Britain too and we will return to this subject often,
Change is going to shake followers of both sides of politics, if China,s growth ends and it will.
We will not have enough to fund endless growth in the non productive sector.
Non productive? not meant as other than truth if we do not address this issue we will see an end to end of work age all together.

Yes Belly, the damage was done back twenty years ago, or more, when our governments, in all their wisdom decided we, a tiny remote nation would be better served with a level trade playing field.

It was a huge mistake and has, and will continue, to cost us dearly.

I seriously doubt we can ever reboot our manufacturing industries, to any sustainable levels, and the taxes collected by the service sector will simply not be enough to keep the wheels turning. Welfare on all levels will suffer but at least the illegals debacle seems to be under control. For now.

The only real solution in my view is a better fairer tax system, but big business won't allow that.

In short, we are screwed and our population is too small to recover in our life time, i say that because of the 22 odd million here, only about 6 million work, and of those, only just over half pay posetive taxes.

So we can only hope the future generations can make a go of things. Good luck with that I have to say.

That is why rehctub, governments of all colours now collect more in GST, licensing fees, stamp duty, fuel excise & tax, development charges, & still have to attempt public-private partnership deals to get anything done.

Yes we will waste billions in undeserved welfare payments, ridicules university courses of non subjects, boat people, union controlled big manufacturing, & all the other vote buying handouts, but have no funds for the things that help develop a prosperous nation.

At least with the incredibly expensive & unreliable alternate electricity generation, the last person to leave won't have to turn out the lights. They will have failed some years back.

Hasbeen ,no matter what you don't like alternate energy is well under way. The cost of big batteries are coming down and solar power is cheap.
More than 2 million installations are now in operation.
It won't be long before housing subdivisions will need to have their own solar + battery installations.
Hospitals and education is what will get hit for welfare cuts, and the rich will get richer.
As in the US if you can't afford to get sick it's best not to.

Gentle men in truth it was 1973 that saw a very big over correction in welfare and it continues still.
It should be clear I remain ALP but it was us who started the slide, because we cared, maybe too much.
It is also true and why must it be? that Liberals reign in the waste and Labor back in office does not return to their old system but keeps the Liberal one.
I most definitely am not calling for starvation wages/dole/welfare.
What however is wrong with returning some thing of value to the country?
I believe a job instead of welfare system would see more than one percent of c8urrent precipitants drop them selves off the dole.
British press is worth a look goggle the new daily.
Right now one story tells us over their 15% of those on disability payments are well enough to work.
My thought here is to defend the system we first must cut waste and fraud.
This will earn me enemy's but if Labor falters at change in this area it will pay for it a growing concern about Green/Labor links will if left choke us.

579, "solar power is cheap"

Cheap for whom? For how long? While I can see some benefit in solar, other consumers on the electricity grid should not be paying higher tariffs to subsidise home solar.

However even if consumers paid for all of their installation and had no subsidy, the hours of generation are at the wrong time for them unless they are at home in the daylight hours.

Consumers must soon twig that as demand for power reduces through proliferation of home solar generation, the electricity providers will levy a large flat fee to compensate for loss of profit. That has already happened with water, where higher charges make up for reductions in usage that persist after the cycle of higher rainfall returned.

Belly, "it was 1973 that saw a very big over correction in welfare and it continues still"

It set up the business model for the victim industries.

Belly, "It should be clear I remain ALP but it was us who started the slide, because we cared, maybe too much"

Excuses. Maudlin B.S., where honesty is required. Labor knew immediately of abuses - their public service advisers in Social Services, Treasury and the Australian National Audit Office certainly did. But Labor benefitted from the votes of the hordes of welfare abusers, including many ethnics who knew how to work around regulations to their advantage, and the academics, bureaucrats and professionals who were to make careers and jolly good incomes from the burgeoning victim industries.

There is no high moral ground on this for Labor, while Gough was idealistic, it was cynical politics to buy votes and remained that way.

Why no recognition from you on the departure from traditional Labor values and priorities (as understood by Labor supporters and voters) and instead, a course set by the 'Progressives' aka Fabian Socialists aka International Socialists? Labor was one thing to voters, but quite another behind closed doors when the imperative was the Statism and central control of International Socialism instead.

Reading your posts one arrives at the same conclusion every time, that addressing the systemic corruption of Labor will never be a higher priority than winning seats. That is where the 'Progressives' are able to pull the wool over your eyes time and time again.

Belly, I would suggest we have a much higher figure of 'could work' on disability pensions, or at least caters pension.

Now while I accept that many caters are ligit, it is ome area that needs a shake up, because there is no way a person should be on a caters pension, looking after someone WHO COUKD have a knee give way while at the shops.

Surely they COULD shop on their day off.

I also know a guy who pulls a shifty with a sore back and has been on the pension for decades, lives in a rental and pays $80 a week, has a working partner and no kids.

When asked to work he simply says to the investigator, will you sign a form to say you forced me to work if I become a cripple. Of cause the answer is no, so off he goes and enjoys his black market income.

579, it is a matter of scale, sure it is quite feasible to have a
couple of million solar systems scattered all over the country and
offset electricity bills.
It is altogether a different matter to fit every residence, (including
flats etc), with solar cells big enough for everything plus batteries
plus storage for 3pm to midnight in winter then pay for it and then
have enough people to maintain the systems, in every town and city.

I just think that you are not aware of the logistics of the task.
Have you ever done any work on the installation of moderate sized
electrical installations ?

The fact of the matter is we, the whole community, no longer has the money !
Whats more we will never have it.

Welfare is alive and well. I spent Australia Day watching cricket and having a few beers with old mates at the club while we all watched dozens of aborigines pouring cash through the poker machines.
I thought they were against Australia day but they certainly enjoy spending the cash that my super fund gives them in taxes.

As a Green, like my party, I am committed to supporting the welfare state. I believe most Australian rightly support the concept of providing for those, that for various reasons and circumstances, cannot either permanently, such as through age or sickness or temporally, because of unemployment, cannot provide for themselves or their families. I have been to countries where there is no welfare at all, and in those places people who don't have family support are generally reduced to begging, something I never want to see on that scale on the streets of Australia.
However, and this might surprise some, I'm not in favor of a 'carte blanche' approach to welfare. I hate how many of our citizens have become welfare dependent and are trapped in a cycle of welfare poverty and have developed an entitlement mentality where living off the state has become for some, the normal way of life. I certainly don't support the fraudsters and the criminal receiving undeserved payments from the taxpayer. I am realistic enough to know when you have a large welfare system it is always going to be open to some level of abuse, but that is not to say efforts should not be made to curb that abuse.
The keyword here is "SUSTAINABILITY", again something myself and Greens in general are strong believers in, cannot stress sustainability enough. Add affordability to this and you have my view on social welfare.
A very worrying aspect of welfare for me is in the way, particularly the conservatives have engaged in large scale 'middle class welfare' paying people cash handouts, who by any stretch of the imagination, don't need or deserve these kinds of incentives. I suspect it is done from both a philosophical, and also, the more crass position of an exercise in vote buying.

sorry that the solar panels found their way in to this thread.
Please consider 579! it gave a rant and raver often wrong poster a chance to insult.
All will know I installed them and produce a sell back item to my power reduced now to 7.8 a day, sell back 500 to 800 KWH company at six cents a unit KWH.
I pay for all nightly use 34 cents per KWH.average use before was 15 KWU a day
hardly theft and remember it was Howard who first bought it by subsidizing to us but needed input during the hot summer days.
Paul step carefully we inhabit a mine field Rechtub and Bazz as I have said many times most Australians think like we do needless waste is not welfare it is a crime.
I worked in many less than great jobs but my familly knew a job was the first thing in haveing a good life no matterthejob.

Yes Bazz, while there would jobs serving solar systems, the problem is these jobs would be non productive work, in the sense that the majority of our coal is exported, producing not only jobs, but income. It is this income that allows companies to invest and prosper, with the bi product being more jobs.

And you're right about having no money, it's a concept that we are all going to have to adjust to as the future will be much different to the past.

Paul1405, providing welfare for the needy is not a problem for most, it's the way this valuable gift is allowed to be wasted that is of huge concern. Admittedly not by all, but any dollar wasted is one dollar too much.

As for solar, I have installed two systems, both are doing just what they are supposed to do and I, like many, simply took advantage of what I considered a great offer.

In Victoria's heat wave last week victorian solar systems produced 600 MWh of power and not dropping below 500 MWh. Peak power production from the usual generators did not happen until after 7 pm. We had generators laying idle even though it was 5 of the hottest days ever.

We lost the chance with nsolar, we started it here and let China take it over because no finance was around for it.
It would not have created many jobs maybe a few thousand but thats it.
If the ALP does not confront welfare reform others will.
I want to see reform before in my view the whole welfare building falls down.
While we are not as broke as some think we are on thin ice if/when China boom stops look out.
Now is the time to prepare for bad times even if they do not come for decades they will come.

The government has no money, what it has is taken by force as taxes.

'Sustainable welfare' must be the euphemism for ordinary citizens bled white by direct and indirect taxes including 'user pays', to support the victim industries.

Targeting disability allows a government to 'save' by forcing vulnerable cases such as people suffering from severe mental conditions such as chronic depression back onto relatives and charities. Also the 'savings' by missed and delayed payments, as legitimate, vulnerable people struggle to comply with the processes of re-application and re-assessment. At the end of the day, the quick-witted who know the system and have advocates working for them will always remain on the guvvy teat.

There is a reluctance to confront and reel back the victim industries that were spawned by the Whitlam government. The PC tail swings the guvvy dog.

It'll never happen, OTB. Those that vote for a living outnumber those that work productively for a living. Those voters are also applying Moar force on the productive to plunder Moar.

The founders of democracy, the Greeks, understood this to be the demise of the system over 2500 years ago. This is where we are today and it will only get worse.

Those voters don't want to work at risk, they wont question why the system is failing only question what schemes they can come up with to ensure its survival. Eventually they will become Moar aggressive in their pursuits as history has shown, hence the oppressive self defense laws.

Margret thatcher said it herself, "Eventually you're going to run out of other people money" The pace at which the voting freeshitters are pillaging the productive workers wealth is at breakneck speed at the moment. prepare accordingly!

579 said;
We had generators laying idle even though it was 5 of the hottest days ever.

No, we did not have generators lying idle, they were sitting there
spinning waiting for the sun to move far enough westward so that the
solar cell output would start to fall.
Spinning away, burning that horrible coal, while keeping ready to
follow the solar cells down their daily curve, if clouds do not come
first.

The problem as I see it is that the average home does not have enough
roof space, together with enough storage with enough efficiency, to
carry the load from 3pm till 9am the next morning.
As for the home units the government is pushing, where do they put the
20 panels for each and every unit in a 100 unit block, to say nothing of their storage banks ?

As I see it the cost of providing every home, factory, office with
enough solar cells and storage would be far greater than using
central generators as we do now.

That's why I say people like 579 go off without thinking it through.
Unfortunately this is the sort of talk you hear all the time.

Rechtub, the maintenance people employed would just be part of the cost of energy.

Rechtub, apparently Belly considers you & I to be some sort of fanatical bomb.

Belly, all the finance in the world means nothing when you are comparing $2 per hour, to $22 per hour. That's the main problem.

onthebeach, at some stage people have to take steps to protect themselves from bad times.

Insurance is available for most people and, if they can't afford it, then that's a personal choice in most cases.

Now of cause you can't bring a system in without a phasing out period, a bit like the pension, and perhaps one option is to allow people to use their super for TPD insurance. At least then, the choice is theirs.

In any case, we must remove some of the fat from welfare.

Bazz, the likes of 579 are dreaming if they think we can run the country on solar.

As for Bellys comment, it is often the view of many people who's life has been provided by another's risk.

Having a job is one thing, creating a job is a whole different ball game and the likes of 579 and Belly are now seeing what poor management does to business confidence and untimely jobs, with Holden being a prime example of union lunacy. Get what you want at any cost.

Well, they have what they wanted, but at the expense of their employer, at least in this country anyway.

Rechtub what are you on about?
Are you saying [not sure what my comment was you remark on] I am a bludger?
Bazz?
Not ever aware of what you are on about what are you commenting on?
In my defense and it was the fate of eldest son in big country family I started full time work at 13.
Had been absent more often than not in the last two years picking fruit or vegys to earn for my family.
I saw increasing waste in welfare, we now have two threads talking about it.
BUT! surely no one here called for starvation for the poor.
A community should be able to get returns for what we pay, not in competition with existing jobs.
That could include but not be limited to, mowing lawns for elderly and those unable to do so.
Under go training for fighting bush fires and floods and be used in such times to help in those events.
The list is only limited by our imagination, not punishment but true work.
Now these things are done by volunteers often very short of numbers.
If fire brigades had the numbers more preventative burning could take place.
I REBUT firmly the thought every recipient is a bludger or lazy.
But last night seeing a man who by his age and free admition he has been on the dole for 28 years see both a policy and the public service who over look his long term holiday just are not working.

Belly; as indicated in my post I was replying to 579, read his.

Rehctub said;
Bazz, the likes of 579 are dreaming if they think we can run the country on solar.

That is true the way 579 meant it.
However, using centralised generation and the grid gives much more
efficiency, imagine a very large solar farm co sited with a coal or
gas or nuclear or geothermal station. The load matching would be a
doddle compared with trying to match individual solar systems everywhere.
Also the maintenance would be a lot cheaper.

Still we were warned about 20 years ago and we took no notice.
If you consider Hubbert's warning we have had 60 years warning and we took no notice.

We got an extra 5 years notice with fracking and we took no notice.

It is now too late, we can play about with solar and wind but there
is no way we can cope with the 20 to 30 years necessary to change
to an alternative energy regime.

Of course a miracle might happen and cold fusion comes good or they
might build a few hundred fusion reactors in the next 5 or 10 years.
You wish !

But to get back to the subject, which I think maybe what Belly was on about;

We have a much bigger problem than worrying where our next Centrelink
payment will come from.

Note Japan's condition, 200% of GDP debt and a rapidly falling population
and an aging population.
They can never pay their debts.
The US is in the same boat, but while they are able to print the reserve currency
they can stave off the final crash.

The problem is if one of those two countries crashes because their
credit dies, our creditors will come running to us wanting their money back,

AND WE DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY !

War extinguishes debt, so there lies the remedy. If we have money for Abbott's delusion of paying people for having babies at extraordinary rates, we obviously do have the money.
It's a matter of prioritising where to spend the money.
I don't think any welfare can be classed as sustainable, but what are your options, there isn't any.

Sorry Bazz my mistake.
We could have done well if we put money in to solar, instead China has it.
No single thing is an answer to all our troubles bloke but yes solar maybe next generation backed by battery at night time will save us money but may cost jobs.
579 six percent gap now we need not be too concerned , while remembering we took our selves out of government we are twice blessed Shorten is no Rudd/Gillard.
And Abbott no leader.
No need to snipe in every thread Tony is doing that for us.
I hope folk know as a union official, in almost any union you gain the bosses friendship.
No strings just acting fairly and honestly.
A side benefit is that boss asks you to send applicants for jobs he has.
I always undertook it by saying if any are no good let me know and not interfering if he unloaded the worst.
I live in an area work is not always easy to get, helped a butcher leave his trade and become a team leader on good wages.
But too could not separate youth who had never ever worked from their surf boards.
Then it was $21,80 an hour now $23.80
I do with all my being think a job is an essential part of life and the sloth like rob them selves of a better life.
PS my remark about solar was aimed at a barbed and rude insult from a poster I never again will address.

Bazz not all generators run on unclean black coal the generators that laid idle were gas fired turbines. To disregard solar is to disregard reality.
Which part of welfare is the sustainable bit. The latest is soft skills for welfare recipients. What makes anyone think there are not architects or builders on welfare. A few gardening skills, is that what is really needed. Councils will take up the offer at the peril of already working persons.

579, I don't think anyone here is saying solar is a dud.

We will comtinue to have solar and, we will continue to make advancements in both solar and increased energy efficiency from electric powered goods.

As for welfare, my suggestion is an immediate halt to all 457 visas, because the number of jons that labor claims to have created, are almost exactly the same as the number of 457 visas issued during the same period, about three years.

The next step is to force companies to train our own people. No training, no licence, it really is that simple.

Now if an Aussie person refuses training, CUT THEM OFF.

Finally, introduce, or at least trial a true transaction tax, a tax that taxes money, not people, because if it were successful it would see around $150 extra per week in the average workers pay packet.

What better way to stimulate the economy.

Belly, I was not calling you a bludger never would

579, it does not really matter whether they were coal or gas, they
have to be kept spinning as backup. If it is co2 that you are worrying
about, that makes no difference because the overall co2 is almost the
same due to fugitive methane.

Our problem is much greater than a few unemployed we have because
politicians, just like the general public, including people on here,
have not been listening and it is now too late to take mitigating
steps. If you thought global warming was a problem, then as they say;
"You ain't seen nothing yet !".

The UK has already gone into panic mode and is taking up fracking for
oil in a big way. The North Sea is well on the way to being finished
and the government there has suddenly realised they are at the mercy
of the Russians and others.

In the meantime, back at the farm, (which we sold to the Chinese) we
are quite happily going to sell off most of our gas, just in case the
Japanese or the US or the Chinese want it.
Of course on cue, the Gladstone plant has refused a contract to an
Australian gas retailer. They prefer to sell it overseas. So Mrs Aussie
get rid of your gas stove and buy an electric one.

Butch you can't just cut them off, our system does not operate on an execution style of govt; We do not have food stamps or the likes of the USA. Who ever has been successful at forcing people to work. There are a lot of hidden mental statuses out there, not diagnosed.
Welfare is a problem, but an ongoing one. It is going to take more thought than an aeroplane trip's thoughts to come up with the right solution and will cost plenty.
You can see the depth of action involved, when we hear solutions like soft work experiences being used. That means there is no money to be allocated for any real solutions.

579, what makes you think even the old age pension will survive ?
Without any mitigation planning, we will just wake up one morning and
find that all the governments cheques have bounced and the banks as a
result are also broke.
You will quickly find that the Financial Stabilisation Board has
sequested your bank deposits. (remember Cyprus ?)
You haven't heard of the FSB ?
No they have been very quite about it.
Ask Joe Hockey about it or better still Wayne Swan as he signed us up for it.

Since the Whitlam government started to pour taxpayers' money into victim industries that would always be beholden to them and would vote Labor, government has found it necessary to withdraw services and introduce user pays affecting traditional welfare recipients, such as age pensioners.

That is the elephant in the room: the hundreds of millions, in fact billions, wasted annually on victim industries that produce no results, pouring the lion's share of the money into salaries, conferences, 'networking', 'study' tours and on lobbying for more guvvy funding and grants.

Next problem is the apparent impossibility of obtaining accountability, despite recommendations and simple 'how-to' guides from consultants and the Australian National Audit Office. How is it that hundreds of millions of taxpayers' $$ are allocated annually to provide aboriginal housing, but after decades of doing so, there are only vacant blocks and wrecked houses to show for it?

We may not all know it but this country indeed the whole world must reconsider what we spend and how we do it.
579 do you understand why I posted this thread,and for that matter the anti CFMEU?
In defense of both welfare and unionism!
Consider right now we could be targeting in to Abbott,s anti ABC rant.
Questioning his ability to lead or his drifting his whole party to the right and further down the polls.
Do you think we have that right?
While refusing to confront our own troubles?
Welfare is worth saving, but not for every one, by far not for every one.
We you and I want a Labor reformist government.
But by hiding our faults we fail!
Fail to win those folk who make up their own minds.
Who wanted to hear us being honest.
If diverting the thread to solar panels was an attempt to hide the threads intended path you are part of the problem not the solution.

Looking back on 2014 say on news years day 2015 we will have seen reforms in this area that some times confront us.
I hope by then the knife will have been taken to Abbott Baby bonus scheme.
See it is waste too. highlighting my concerns the cuts to come, as has every action of our Prime Minster post his installation has been, will be purely political, not well thought out and balanced actions.