The ABC 24 "the Drum" reports:

The Green senator what's his name proposed to scrap the Lord's Pray when federal parliament opens.

The Left found the pray offensive to Jews and Muslims and atheists alike.

The Left found the pray offensive to Jews and Muslims and atheists alike.
Peng,
With morons like that can one say other than Peng! Peng!

I am not the least interested in the lords prayer, but I do find the greens offensive.

Can we scrap them?

The lords 'prayer' has no place in modern Australian parliaments, except for Christian politicians who may (quietly!) say it to themselves if they feel the need.

Why should everyone have to say the words to someone else's God, or even worse, if they don't believe in gods at all.

At best it would be boring for all those who don't want to chant useless, time wasting words, and at worst, it may even be offensive to some politicians.

Just because the old boys in parliaments over the years have always mindlessly chanted the words when required, doesn't mean they have to continue doing it today.
They aren't in church for goodness sake!

Parliament house is not a Catholic institute. They say the Lords Prayer? Nobody likes Religion to be pushed onto them and for those who have their beliefs, some extreme,to have to acknowledge someone else's God let alone be expected to take part in the chant, offended, to me a bit extreme but a certain feeling of disregard and disrespect. Religion is a personal choice/belief with a time and a place. Not in the workplace.

Ok, ok, ok, let's do away with The Lords Prayer.

But no half measures,eh!

Whilst we're in the mood for dispensing with "useless, time wasting" and "offensive" words, let's also do away with those ridiculous preludes or postludes which rhapsodize the guardians and traditional owners of the land.

Come-on Greens and progressives do we have your ayes on this?

Substitute sixty seconds of silence during which members can quietly pray or reflect as their conscience (yes, I know it seems oxymoronic) dictates.

Personally, I would be satisfied if all politicians asked for forgiveness...

Some might even reflect that they have been elected to represent neither themselves nor their parties, but the people of their electorate.

THE..lords payer..isnt recited
if you really..listen..they pray to the bLACK ROD
OTHER 'lords'..PRAYERS [USA]..PRAY TO THE BUndles of sticks]

THE..true.lords prayer..pray's
the other 'LORDS'..prayer..preys
[by THEIR WORDS..we can know..'them'..but BY THEIR ILL WORKS..will they condemn themselves.

they 'prey'..THAT IT BE DONE..on earth..as it is in heaVEN
well hell outcasts..sinners..heaven just ignores them..and they leave..by themselves..[so thus..the prayer tO THE BLACK ROD..MUST GO..

BUT THE LORD*S PRAYER..must be obeyed..
one daY

THE BIBLE IS THE SUPREME LAW BOOK..on earth..and in hell..[NOT IN HEAVEN]..but then we cANT GET A COMPLETE VERSION OF IT NEAR THE LIGHT..but then the SAME AP[PLIES TO ALL..the holy tEXTS CHANNELED..DOWN..TO MAN

sorry..about the caps..[THE Virus..is getting worse].

Good start to the silly season.

Why would Jews and Muslims find the Lord's Pray(er) offensive?

Non-believers might find it a bit of a joke.

jodelie,

What has Catholicism got to do with it?

The Lord's Prayer was introduced into a Protestant dominated Parliament by Anglicans and supported by members of other religions; it has now become a harmless tradition.

Once more The Greens are leading the way, in this case its Senator Richard Di Natale advocating the removal of that silly little anachronism of reciting of a religious incantation before each days sitting. As Richard said "We have a very clear separation between church and state in this country." so why are we sticking to this bit of mumbo jumbo in parliament. I expect no support for Richards endeavors from the stuffy old conservative bible bashers on the government benches, or the Labor Catholic right fruit cakes on the oppositions side. If the parliament was to abandon this anachronism how would Tony convey the news to his boss and mentor Archy Pell?

Parliamentarians are being paid good money to run the country.
Payer is a waste of this precious time.
If anyone can demonstrate one (just one) prayer that has been answered by divine intervention then let them pray.
Until then it is a useless anachronistic exercise.

Ponde, the political decision making by the Abbott government is based on a wing and a prayer, and hope for divine intervention somewhere along the line before everything goes belly up and the voters get wise to the charlatans! So I'm sure the Mad Monk will want to hold onto it.

The Lord's prayer was originally used by Essene Jews and Jesus taught to his disciples. So Jews should not find it offensive as no concept contained in it differs from their faith. Muslims uphold Jesus as a prophet and respect his teaching. The only ones who would object are atheists of varying degrees, as they see themselves as the highest authority.
Think about the words.
Our Father - who occupy the spiritual realm of power.
Holy be your character. Name = character
Your kingdom be revealed = may purity rule our world.
Thy will be done on Earth - May your highest values rule our world.
Give us today our basic needs - manage the environment and our resources well so our needs are met.
Forgive us where we have violated another's character and help us be forgiving of others violations.
Lead us not into temptations of dishonest dealings, lying or deceiving.
For your government reflects true holiness and purity.

YES! lets get rid of all these values and may we never be reminded that Government should not consider these things. Where does this leave atheists? Lets have a look at their values. Do they differ?

and no doubt those who want the prayer gone will revel in the aborigines doing their hulo hulo at the start of a new Parliament.

Aborigines are real, Gods aren't.
If you want to dance at the opening of parliament I will not try and stop you. You can also pray as long as i am not paying your wages while you do so.

Such a fuss over an anachronistic ritual.

I have a problem with the basic underlying concept put forward by the complainers that this rite is somehow "offensive".

In the same way that I (an atheist to my bootstraps) listen politely every time a formal session is opened with a "recognition of the owners of the land", I would, if I were a politician, afford the same courtesy to the harmless ceremonial mumbling of the Lord's Prayer.

The act of "taking offence" has reached epidemic proportions in our society, and it is about time it stopped. Are we such weak, feeble and vulnerable folk that we allow these petty trifles to cause us harm?

Because if no harm is being caused, then we should simply accept that no offence has been committed, and be adult about the whole thing.

More than a century ago France enshrined secularism, the separation of church and state. The idea is that religion is a private affair.
In recent weeks France released a secular charter for all schools to remind pupils and teachers of the country's secular, Republican principles.
Religion may be important to individuals and their churches, especially in countries that espouse a single religion, such as in many Islamic countries.
But religion and religious chants should be private - not public - affairs, and France is a shining example of this.
Australian governments, and agencies such as courts, should follow the French example. You can't have equality if the state embraces one religion over another. And you can't expect people who are not religious to say prayers they don't believe in.
I see no place for the Lord's Prayer in affairs of government in Australia. Besides, it has hardly raised the standard of morality and honesty for politicians or for anyone else for that matter.

Peter Clack,
Our politicians do need a daily reminder they are not the absolute power and have responsibility to higher ideals and values than they might be inclined to live. Perhaps they need an exegesis of what it means rather than a incomprehensible chant.

I don't think the Lord's Prayer would be deemed offensive by many, but I don't think its appropriate either given that we are amongst the least religious of all western societies. Only approx 7.5% attend Christian churches! which means the Lord's Prayer is not relevant to much of the population. Around 60% of the population view themselves as Christian but for many that relates to their heritage rather than them practising anything. A 2008 survey ranked Australia's youth as the least religious in the world.
So I don't think most of Australia care, and I don't think its relevant.
But I doubt many would find it offensive, but there is meant to b a separation of church and state so it makes sense to remove it.

I do think opening parliament with a welcome to country speech by an indigenous elder is correct. Because that is about recognising our history and trying to make up for injustices of the past.

I actually go along with Josephus. Let's get rid of the Lords Prayer. & replace it with something modern that would be a ritual opening Oath. Such as;

All the people of Australia.
We, your elected representatives, respect the Character of the Australian people.
The Culture of the Australian people is worthy of our respect & retaining.
What you ask of us will be done to the highest value in a bipartisan spirit.
We will look after the needs of Australia & the Australian people before all others.
We will manage the Australian environment and resources well, so our Countries needs are met.
As your elected representatives we will not violate another's character and help us be forgiving if others violate ours.
We will not be led into the temptation of being dishonest, lying or deceiving the people of Australia in any way.
For your government reflects true nature of the Australian Character.
This, I swear.

I think that would be too much for any Politician to accept don't you?

Josephus, come on you are believer in god, what's this about "have responsibility to higher ideals and values" reducing god to abstract ideals and values, why not just come out with a responsibility to god.
We Greens never hold a meeting without expressing our respects for the traditional owners, past and present, of the land on which we are meeting. I think parliament should do the same and members could voluntarily take turns of reciting the affirmation.

Jayb,

Great post, but revolutionary thoughts such as you propose will have you on ASIO's watch list.

Too late & I saw my File in 71. Don't ask, they'd have to kill you. ;-).

The Lord's Prayer is not offensive but it is an unnecessary ritual for the process of parliament and does not reflect the democratic idea of separation of powers.

Most of the leading politicians on all sides of politics in Australia are Christians and it certainly hasn't stopped some from misleading the public, lying, rorting travel claims and sometimes, at the worst end, entering into corrupt practices.

It is not Christianity that makes them dishonest, it is the fact that they are humans and some don't seem to be able to prevent themselves from unsavoury behaviour regardless of their faith or absence of faith.

The mere repeating of the Lord's Prayer does not ensure politicians behave in the most respectful and ethical ways. It all comes down to what sort of person they are and this is not determined by aligning oneself to any particular belief, whether Christian, atheist or otherwise.

The Lord's prayer differs in length - the Catholic Church omits the doxology at the end ("For thine is the kingdom, the power, etc). All these popular versions base the text on Matthew 6:9-11, rather than as it appears in Luke 11:2-4.The Context of the Lord's prayer

http://www.lords-prayer-words.com/lord_traditional_king_james.html

The context for the prayer is the Sermon on the Mount, and Jesus discussing how we should pray. We are not to pray to impress God or others, or to think that we might be able to manipulate Him in order to get what we want.(Matthew 6:5-7,
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%206:9-6:13&version=KJV

rather than/like it appears IN LuKE
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2011:2-11:4&version=KJV

The Message) Rather, we are to come simply, as a child would to his father, and honestly, being real about our failures and need of God.

When malkuth is used of God,..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Petition

..it almost always refers to his authority or to his rule as the heavenly King."[19] This petition looks to the perfect establishment of God's rule in the world in the future, an act of God resulting in the eschatological order of the new age.[20]

The request for God's kingdom to come is commonly interpreted at the most literal level: as a reference to the belief, common at the time, that a Messiah figure would bring about a kingdom of God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer

1662 Anglican BCP[13]

Our Father, whO art..AT ONE..in heaven,
hallo*-wed be thy name;
thy kingdom hast..come;
thy will..shall/be done,
0n earth..as it is in heaven.
[see gone wesT]

Give us this day our daily breaTH.
And forgive us..of our trespasses,..BUT*..NOT OUR INFLICTIONS....OF HUrtfullness..[UPON OTHER]

as we forgive them that trespass against us...let us recieve thyne mercies
And PRAY..WE KNOW..THY..DOTH/NOT..lead us not into temptation;
but THEEE..deliver us from evil.

[For thine is the grace/the good and the mercYFULL..THAT SUSTAINS US ALL OUR VERY LIVING..IN ALL OF THYNE the kingdom,
to theee lord..be the right..THE DUTY..the good the trie and the supreeme the power, and the glory,
for ever and eve er....

not SAID/UNTO..the lord AHMEN
BUT THEE the living loving eternal/omnipresent being.THE..lord of hosts/lord..HOSTING THY LIVING presence..within all*


Ahhh-men.

OUG,
You have shot yourself in the foot again.
" Thy will be done"
Lets have a look at what is Gods will?
Stoning people for working on the Sabbath.
No Women allowed to approach the alter.
approval of slavery.
Selling of your daughter's into slavery.
And the list goes on.
Surely you are not suggesting the federal parliament introduce such laws.

It is widely believed that our Constitution builds
a wall of separation between church and state, but
this view is largely a myth.

If one bothers to read the relevant parts of our Constitution
the actual wording implies that the state, out of respect
for the principle of freedom of religion, may not favour
or penalise one belief relative to another. However, although
the state may not become involved in religion, there is
absolutely no prohibition against religious participation
in the affairs of the state.

In practice, civic affairs and religion have long
been closely intertwined in this country. Religion has been
and is an element in oaths of office, party conventions,
court-room procedures and indeed nearly all formal public
occasions. Even the Boy Scouts and Girl Guides give a
"God and Country pledge, a phrase that implies, to say
the least, a compatibility of interest between the two.
And political leaders have always been expected to pay
at least lip service to religious belief, in fact
every swearing in to Ministers - involves some mention of
God whether it's on the Bible, or as was the recent
happening - of on the Koran.

The Greens Senator Richard Di Natale - has asked
for The Lord's
Prayer to be dropped from the day's sitting of the
opening of Federal Parliament. This suggestion can be
reviewed and voted on by Members. I suspect that the
prayer will remain - with the relationship between
church and state being a controversial issue that will
continue to endure. As they do with school prayer, and
other issues.

Please identify the current percentage values of the Australian population if we are to uphold them in parliament. Especially the young people who see consideration of others as of low value. What relevance does 'welcome to country' have to government?

ponde'..QUote..<,..Lets have a look at what is Gods will?>>

GOD..IS A shOrtening..oF GOOD=god.
as jesus..birth naming codefied..by the word..unifiED ..within..tHE 'TITLE....Emmanuel..[god..wITHIN/US[ALL]..

[ie that we do to*..the least..we do to god*]

<<Stoning people for working on the Sabbath.>>

JESUS REFUTED STONING*..[when he drew the commandment..'thou shalt not murder..IN THE DIRT]..god refutes stoning..as the stoner..and the stoned are both*..sustained theIR LIVING of gods wilL ALONE

NO DEATH/SERVES THE life giver*

the noahtide laws OF DESERT SURVIVAL..was refuted by jesus
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/capitalpunishment/ig/Types-of-Executions/Death-by-Stoning.htm

<<..No Women allowed to approach the alter.>>

spirit has long beeN MANS BUSINESS
god gave co-creator shIP..TO EVE[adam..the life giver..but eve co creator*]..REGARDLESS thats mosus [egyptian/lore]..jesus brung the new law*

<<approval of slavery.>>

iF ..i..borrow..from you..BUT LACK..the means.,,to pay
how else to make the DEBT GO AWAY..ITS..cash..or service*-

we had work houses..debt is debt..it cant go away
its over due..to return..our debt/to good[god]..

<<..Selling of your daughter's into slavery.>>

only the wealthy..have THE DOWERY*..[DO YOU VALUE YOUR daughter enough to..DEMANd..A high price*..][or let her marry the rocKSTAR/SPORTS THUG?

who are we to judge..till the..victim DEMANDS..here own rights
who are we to judge[NOW IF ITS UNDERAGE..[OR BY FORCE]..thats different

<<..And the list goes on.>>

WE CANT Judge other..great evil..allows..
greaTER GOOD..in ending it

<<..Surely you are not suggesting the federal parliament introduce such laws.>>

IF THE stoner wants to get stoned..let them
if you steal..your enslaved to who you stole FROM..if you got the gAIN..you must share thE PAIN..iF that young punk..wants her barefoot and pregnant..let it be HER choice*

THE COMFORTER*/JOHAN*NINE

There is irrefutable evidence that the Catholic Church interferes in politics in Australia and when viewed beside this intrusion into the democratic process in this country a bit of Green whinging about the Lord's Prayer is quite insignificant.

Di Natalii would do far better to go after the big things such as the Pope interfering in local politics.

Nothing to see here. It is just the headline hunting Greens Protest Party at it as usual.

Candide.I didnt realise that the Catholics and Protestants shared the same prayer. Arent they mortal enemies? lol. No offense to anyone, my religious knowledge is pretty limited.I went to a catholic school, the nuns were great ladies. As soon as the subject of religion, prayers,and church started getting pushed, I refused to participate. I was an extremely quiet girl, but could not do what seemed like playing along with something that made no sense to me. I do respectfully join in prayer at funerals. Anyway bla bla, the old saying 'you can keep all of the people happy some of the time and some of the people happy all of the time'. No happy medium here. It has to have something of a moralistic, humanitarian, universal theme. Some profound poem that may remind them of the purpose and privilege of their position, their obligations to the people. I know, how about this.'A conscious decision to forgo all the perks gifted to them because of their position, unless of course they are happy and feel they honestly deserve it, and accept it with a clear conscience, HA ha what am I thinking. Amen to that :)

amazing in 2001 that even a number of Democratics (with tears in their eyes) sang God bless America in its time of crisis. I suspect that in times of need that Aussies would do the same.

strangely enough no amount of rewriting history, God denying and frothing at the mouth will mean God is going to vacate His throne. Those with any sense know this.

runner: God is going to vacate His throne.

There is a GOD? Where 's at!

gods 'THRONE'..IS OUR LIVING loving heart*

Jayb

'There is a GOD? Where 's at! '

watching u and me.

I like the timing with that "Play Bible Trivia" add !!

Praying before Parliament starts, is an old habit that will change as Australia changes. Nothing, in any country, stays the same forever.

Without change, we'd still be living in caves.

Philips,
There are good and poor habits, identify what is bad about the prayer

How can you do such a thing?...The first law and order of which religion was based upon, not to mention, why humans are here... and yes I choose science to understand the world I live in...but the funny thing is....there's more:)..

Planet3

Josephus, when and where did I say prayer was bad?

Because something changes, it doesn't mean it was initially bad.

No matter how much the conservatives in society wish things to remain the same, they inevitably change. This anachronism or prayer will one day go the same way as did offering human sacrifice to the Sun God before the opening of parliament, we have not done that since 1962.

OUG,
gods 'THRONE'..IS OUR LIVING loving heart*

This is what is termed a personal God and commonly called your conscience.

If that is where you want your god to be then you must realize that in such a position he cannot grant prays, write books or have a son.

PONDE/quote..<<..This is what is termed a personal God and commonly called your conscience.>>

THE HEART=CENTRAL CONTROL..it has more 'neURON/activity'..than even the brain..ITS VERY PERSONAL..WE each have within us alL..god[with us/within us all

we arnt..the god
yet we know..GOD..[MAY SEEK TO KNOW good..by doing as we saw jesus doing]..TO SEE HIM..was like seeing the father[for those needing the SEEing.

but importantly..god is omnipresent
intra alia..with-in every..'living thing'
[and even inert maTTER has 'life'..]

<<..If that is where..you want your god to be..>>

ITS NOT..where i want..god to be
see revel-ELATION..ITS WHERE HE BE.
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Rev/Throne-Its-Surroundings

,,<<..then you must realize that in such a position he cannot grant prays, write books or have a son.>>

of course he HAS
HE..GAVE..US LIFE..that we be able..to
that any/of us do did..was ENABLED..by his sustaining us our lives

but we livING..is nuthing..to those departed
it is thEY..too sustained..THEIR ongoing living..by the holy spirit
that inspire..the living..[if WE think evil..we attract demONS..who love that/bad energy[if we think love we attract lovers..if we thunk it/we attracted more of it

where demons are angels cannot BE
where the light is..darKNESS IS NOT.

MORE OF THE SAME..is allwaYS A GIVEN*
skill attracts the skilled/bird of a feather ..ALLWAYS..cluster together]

heaven and hell is where we finally fiND..peers
who love the same obsessions we do

thus all lovers of say..MURDER..share the same hell
murdering only each other..aGAIN AND AGAIN..and agaiN..TILL THEY LOOSE THE LOVE OF MURDER..and evolve..INTO THE NEXT OBSESSION.

im told racist hell..IS TRUEly HELL
BUT the vivisectionist hell..thats TRUE HELL AS WELL

If we think..it we attract it
when we react to 'it'..we emit energies
that sustain the aNGELS/DEMONS..THAT FEED OFF IT*..

ponde,
Conscience is not the extent of the divine but it is our connection to the morality of the divine. However conscience must be educated.

emphasize.."GOOD-action"..over.."good/thoughts."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_(Christianity)

The Lord..sits..RESIDES..on the throne..of our hearts.

rev/21:5:..I am making/everything new.
Or,..in the King/James-Version:..Behold,..I make all things new.

It is a reminder..that God is always..making each of us anew...It is an important concept..to keep in mind..IN/New Year's...Symbolically, the New Year..is a good time to be reminded..that everything can begin again in our lives...

Of course,..this is true..WITH/IN..every moment..of every day.

Swedenborg..had a lot of say about Revelations.
He wrote this..in Apocolypse Revealed,..#886

'the "new jerusalem"..is peace on earth,..[with people acting/in love to help..each other.]The.."new church"..is a time of religious harmony..when all religions..are at peace with each other;
[with the..one commonality..living/that of love..of Divine[within/us all..and serving each other.]

In verse..#4 of Revelation 21,..we are told..that God now*
dwells..with humanity,..[in us all]..and that God..[one/of us]..will wipe away tears..from every eye.

Swedenborg/taught that..the.."second coming"..has already happened, with..[the Lord's pure]..love living8..within every heart.

We aren't..waiting for..a mysterious event..to occur[that will wipe AWAY evil..and bring justice/..]..Instead,..God lives within/each one of us,..and guides us to make our earth..into a New Jerusalem.

The time is NOW,..and God is at work within/each one of us to create ourselves and the world anew --..to birth the new[living/loving/jerusalem]..and the..FULLY INCLUSIVE/new church'..on the earth.

http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/articles/Word/sd.htm

The New/Jerusalem
The beginning”..includes the first period..of..SPIRITUAL/regeneration too,..as that is when people..are being born anew..and receiving life...[grace/love/mercy]..Because of this,..regeneration itself is called our new creation.[you loose..your name/your state..sepperate.. the criminal/from his means/of hurting/other.]

Before regeneration..a person is called the void,..empty/earth,..and also..[NIGHT]-soil..in which no seed of goodness..or truth has been planted...Void refers to an absence of..active/goodness..and empty to an..absence of truth/love/charity/GRACE/MERCY..ETC...

The result is..the present/burden/darkness,..in which a person is oblivious to..or ignorant of anything..having to do with faith..in the Lord

and consequently with..a spiritual..PURE/LIVING/LOVING/LOGICAL..EARTHLy..or heavenly life...…

[THUS CHOSE THE DARKNESS.]..by non action...[the/DEFAULT OPTION].

Heavenly Secrets, parts of #16-17. NCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortality_of_the_soul

I have a solution, rather than trying to change the world, why not just refrain from participating in the lords prayer when it is played at an event that you are attending.

At least then we can go on focusing on more pressing issues.

BTW, if on the other hand the lords prayer offends your FORIGN religious beliefs, then leave!

Considering that after the prayer, the members go back to their typically hypocritical un-Christian behaviour I think this is little more than empty superstitious ritual.

It's like the wigs worn by judges and medieval clerical garb - meant to create an air of authority and solemnity but with no substance whatsoever.

They may as well have a sing-song round of "the Hokey-Cokey" - with all the appropriate movements of course - otherwise the magic won't work.

I'll post this again,

"There is irrefutable evidence that the Catholic Church interferes in politics in Australia and when viewed beside this intrusion into the democratic process in this country a bit of Green whinging about the Lord's Prayer is quite insignificant.

Di Natalii would do far better to go after the big things such as the Pope interfering in local politics."

Did you all miss it or are you content that a foreign Head of State and a Religious Leader interferes in our internal affairs and attempts to deny some our citizens their democratic rights?

Greens where are you?
How can you allow this state of affairs to continue?

Is Mise, join the party and help fight the papal conspiracy.
A bit of light reading;
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/14/new-jesuit-pope-fuels-conspiracy-theories-about-an-army-of-shadows/

Father Joe, where do you get this clap trap from:
"Conscience is not the extent of the divine but it is our connection to the morality of the divine. However conscience must be educated."
Yep, get em' while they young and their little minds are pliable, and you've got em' for life. Well there are a few exceptions, me for one.
This was the reason the likes of the Catholic Church got into "education" in the first place. Churches have been guilty of the physiological distorting of children's minds since the year dot, Today that distortion sees grown, supposedly intelligent adults, our elected representatives, resorting to reciting a mombo jumbo of some religious hocus pocus, before getting down to the serious business of running the country. When will it stop!

@ Paul1405,

<<Churches have been guilty of the physiological distorting of children's minds since the year dot>>

C'mon Paul, you're not really opposed to the "physiological distorting of children's minds" --you just want to take it out of the hands of the churches and put it squarely in the hands of those lefty-Greenie teachers and professors.

I am quite sure *the left* can not be named as contributors to any thing the greens say.
The Lords prayer is no more or less offensive to me than any song of praise for any non existent God.
Schools teach evolution so why the contradiction.

Belly, (welcome back) there is a point here about Australia being a secular society. This anachronism may not be offensive to you or to the majority of Australian. Like the singing of 'God Save the Queen' Australia should clearly identify itself as a forward thinking progressive, all encompassing and egalitarian society, in the modern age. The resiting of this rather dated prayer with its roots in the 19th century fails to project Australia as such a society.

as..our law/govt/armed forces..swear
to 'serve aND PROTECT'[HRH/HER HEIRS AND SUccessers]..
removing our prays..[of god save the queen/WAS IN HINDSIGHT/SOMEWHAT shortsighted

[now policy police policy[instead of serve
and prOTECT]..DITTO GOVT..DITTO LAW..diTTO SCIENCE/MEDI-SIN MEDIA

TO REMOVE IT EVEn further..by taking god out..too
what next..hrh.. gives up her popehooD,,or OUR SERVANTS..RETURNING BACK TO SERVICE..

protection..NOT PERSICUTION?

OUG,
Please rectify your problems with CAPS LOCK.
No it is not persecution - they can pray all day but not while i am paying their wages.
it is not protection - just who or what is the prayer protecting.
And you still cannot supply one instance where prayer has been answered by divine intervention.

dear poNDE..stop trolling your owN TOPIC

I HAVE BOUGHT..MY LAST COMPULSory consumer purchase

im over buying..LIGHT BULBS..
over buying digital tvs..[just cause gOVT SAYS SO]
im over buying my 13 th computer..SO DO AS YOU WILL..NO MORE CONSUMERISM [BY GOVT Collusion]

WHEN THIS COMPUTER DIES
so do i..if i am killed before THEN..SO BE IT

im over helping ignorance
its ignorant s that see petrol double..cause govt allowed ;investors]..to buy up the futures

im over paying double..FOR PHONE POWER..double world price
IM OVER..the lot of it...[so go waste others posts]..im over it.

YOU WANT TO TAX MY SMOKES/tax my purchase/COM-PULSORY MAKE ME INSURE
YOU..go..AND..

[With as big a stick..as fits.]

OUG,
A troll is by definition is anyone that disagrees with you.
But please don't give up- you brighten my day.
Government consumerism is everywhere even you cannot escape - even in Heaven God will try and sell you his books.
I agree with you on petrol prices - just a rip off and it is only going to get worse as world supply runs out.
Electricity prices to will run out - it has been 50 years since the last power station was built we need to go nuclear.
The tax on smokes however is still far too low - their harmful effects are scientifically proven just the non existence of your God has been scientifically proven.
If you plan to use a stick I say that the word is more powerful.

pound..<<..The tax on smokes however is still far too low - their harmful effects are scientifically proven>>

the science was sexed UP/propaganda[get it?]
recent health Stats..reveal heart disease..the biggest killer

'smoking'..as a cause of death is frAUD

but..LINK SMOKING..TO 'HEARTS disease/..most arnt..'smokING RELATED'
LINK it to cancer..[only one in 5 cancers are smoking relaTED]
link it to the other ..medical causes of death..you gOT spin

MEDICAL..coSTS..of all smokers..is 800,million
not 30 billion..[CONNED AGAING]

BUT DONT BELIEVE ME
nextr time you see an empty ciggie packet..READ THE lie ON THE BACK

i have before me at this moment,..an empty jps/blue/PACVKET
it has on it a DEAD MANS FOOT..with a toe TAG..ABOVE IT THE WORDS
'SMOKING KILLS/THATS A LIE..SMOKING maybe..a cause of sickness..but only SicKNESS..causes death

no one died..from smoking[unless they choked on say the smoke
buT..THEN DEATH wOULD READ DEATH/BY AFFIXIATION[NOT SMOKING]

BUT LETS READ..the other words
'''dont tHINK IT CANT HAPPEN..TO YOU*'''

there was the threat..now note THE LIE
'''..half of LIFETIME smokers..ARE KILLED BY THEIR SMOKING.'''

LIE..

PLEASE PRESENT YOUR PROOF
your ignorance set this up

<<..just the non existence of your God has been scientifically proven.>>

great..pleasE PRESENT..the proof
OR BE REVEALED AS..A Useful/idiot..[IE..biased]..

anything upon me
just never on you?,,right?

YOUR a PATHETIC excUSE..FOR A MAN*

OUG

You are getting too verbose and offensive for this site.

Theatheist@iinet.net.au

If you want to continue in this vane.

<<..- even in Heaven God will try and sell you his books.>>

WRONG AGAIN..pleaSE PRESENT PROOF?

I KNOW..IN HEAVEN..You need but ask..the author..OF ANY POINT
WHERE YOU FEEl confused..and instantly..your EXCHANGING THE TRUTH..BETWEEN THINE Energies.

IN heaven..you need but ask..and the reply INSTANTLY..IS GIVEN
[FULL STOP]..

TO ASK IS TO RECEIVE..thats the law*

I wounder if we can step out side this issue and take another look.
No doubt if we had been talking about say Witch Doctors most would not want their prayers and utterances in our schools.
We avoid even considering how many Gods exist, or did, in mans history.
We many of us, without taking a breath, ridicule other religions, say the involvement of the Muslim religion.
In every thing from what will be in education to who will govern in those country,s they control, or for some even ours.
Have we considered us, the folk who think there never was or will be a God?
I doubt we have or ever will, and question why
Why too side by side our schools tell of the eminence number of planets of the universe and how we truly came about and? the creationists myths
PS OUG mate do not over do the capitals it has the reverse effect
you want if you do.
Paul, do you think any party gains by being brave enough to stand alone on this issue
Time is on our side in this issue, having left our caves we have no use for such blankets to hide under

It is interesting that many align religious belief with political ideology. It is religion not politics. Christianity does not belong to any political creed. There are many Left leaning Christians as well as Right.

Paul,

Do the Greens, and your good self, support the Pope interfering in the internal politics of Australia?

Surely you would oppose such interference and would support your fellow citizens who are deprived of their democratic rights by the actions of this foreigner.

Is Mise "Do the Greens, and your good self, support the Pope interfering in the internal politics of Australia?" What do you think? There is enough Catholic clergy in Australia interfering with children we don't need Bergoglio interfering as well.

Do the Catholic clergy and their followers still practice self flagellation. Pope JP2, liked a bit of the self whipping, most likely got a few young nuns to give him a lash or three, as well. The self flage is a way they get their rock off. Do we still have parliamentary whips, do other members have to make a booking or do the whips do it at call?

But the Pope is interfering, so do you support the democratic rights of those affected?
Will you and the Greens stand up for their rights?

Will you back these deprived people against the Pope?

Di Natalii would do far better to go after the big things such as the Pope interfering in local politics."

Did you all miss it or are you content that a foreign Head of State and a Religious Leader interferes in our internal affairs and attempts to deny some our citizens their democratic rights?

Greens where are you?
How can you allow this state of affairs to continue?

Is Mise, to assist in this matter I will raise it with our NSW Senator Lee Rhiannon, you can assist also by writing about the problem to state and federal parliamentarians, newspapers, call talkback radio, write to the Catholic Church, Pell would be a good start, join a political party (Greens would be a good choice, labor and Liberal are unlikely to take you seriously) and highlight the problem whenever you can. I hope I have answered the question for you.

Thought the thread was about greens calling for an end to School praying?
Then how come my mate from that lost tribe is asked if he defends the Pope?
Matter of fact, yes it is true for Christianity but not all religions, both left and right believe in God.
But using the home of evil acts against Children the Catholic Church here actually adds to my thoughts we would be better having no religions.
As does the whole history of Ireland
Will we ever evolve enough to walk away from all Gods and take responsibility for our own actions? we can only hope.

Can't give a straight answer Paul?
Do you support the Pope's interference in Australian politics?

Apparently you do, which is strange given your ravings about Catholicism.

Belly,

The thread is about a prayer in Parliament not schools although Parliament may at times resemble an unruly kindergarten.

Come off it Is Mise what does; "There is enough Catholic clergy in Australia interfering with children we don't need Bergoglio interfering as well." Maybe you need to Google the name Bergoglio to understand the answer.
Belly, I realised from the start Is Mise was trying, some how indirectly to attack The Greens, with his odd complaint. His; "There is irrefutable evidence that the Catholic Church interferes in politics in Australia." he didn't offer that "irrefutable evidence" maybe he should do that now.

If the head of a foreign state, the Pope is the head of the Vatican State, and if he was to interfere in Australian domestic politics through an Australia citizen, be it Archy Pell, even though that citizen is an employee of his, I would find that disturbing. Short of an admission from one or both parties, such a thing could be very hard to prove. But Is Mise has his irrefutable evidence which he'll post for all to read shortly.....waiting!

Hard question to answer, Paul?

The fact that the Pope interferes in Australian politics is common knowledge and has been well reported in the media.

The question is would you and the Greens support the Pope's interference or would you support those affected asserting their rights as Australian citizens in defiance of the Pope's interference?

Obama’s “Religious Freedom Day” Proclamation Recognizes “Atheists And Agnostics”
. http://weaselzippers.us/obamas-religious-freedom-day-proclamation-recognizes-atheists-and-agnostics/

I didn’t realize atheism was a religion, then again, many of them worship Obama.
.

Not all atheists worship Obama. Actually when you think about it, we don't worship anyone!
http://investmentwatchblog.com/james-galbraith-on-the-predator-state-and-national-solvency/

Paul just as I have had to you must confront this issue that poster considers only his thoughts to be true.
I doubt any other poster could find any protection of the Catholic Church in your or your party,s actions.
In fact think an effort to divert us from the real intention of the thread is barely hidden.
We know our country indeed the western world guarantees freedom to practice religion.
Is it rude to demand the same rights for us who do not believe?
I want no religion to have any influence on any country,s government, indeed politics

Belly,

Then we can take it that you as well as Paul object to the Catholic Church interfering with the political rights of some of our fellow citizens?

I know that I object strongly to the Church interfering in our internal politics; welcome aboard!

We have a long history of religious involvement in politics in Australia. From the very beginning of European settlement, the first to be politically active was the Anglican minister Samuel Marsdon who arrived in 1794. The Catholic religion was strongly suppressed in the early colony as it was seen as the religion of the rebellious Irish (convicts). During WWI and the burning issue of conscription, something both the Labor Party and the Catholic Church in Australia opposed. One of the leading opponents of the referendums held on the issues was the Catholic Archbishop of Melbourne Daniel Mannix, who had a strong influence on Australian politics for over 50 years. The next big religious involvement in Australia was the Labor split of the 1950's. This seen the "Catholic" section split from the ALP to form the DLP as there was a strong belief that the Labor Party had been taken over by the atheistic communists. The Catholic Church spent the next 20 years working hard to keep Labor out of office. B.A (Bob) Santamaria was the leading Catholic mouth peace in opposition to Labor. Some may recall his weekly TV commentary 'Point of View'. I don't believe there has ever been a more influential non politician in Australia than Bob Santamaria and that includes Rupert Merdoch. Over the pass 30 years the churches have remained very influential in Australian politics, the Catholic Church in the form of Archbishop Pell has in my view an over say in Australian Politics. This has also been self evident in the states, NSW politics for example has been very much influenced by the likes of the Reverend Fred Nile and his CDP over many years.
I see church involvement in Australia as an unwelcome intrusion into our secular affairs. With their innate conservatism the churches retard development within society.
footnote; The Rev Fred, 80, just remarried to a woman (55) who was 5 years old when Fred was 30. Some might say strange dirty old man.
Another footnote; The Catholic Church has also over the years been heavily involved in the Australian union movement.

Paul1405 I guess you are right in some respects. I remember Mannix speaches on the Radio on Sunday. I was too your to know what it was about, of course, Mum & Dad listened to them. Then I also heard Bob Santamaria. The man responsible for the influx of Southern Mediterranean immigrants in the 50's with the Colombo Plan. Mind you what he had to say made sense.

In the 60 the Communist Party had a big influence in Australia. We even had a Communist Party Member of Parliament, from Collinsville, where they ran the Catholic Priest out of town on a rail. (true) The Communist Party was very active in the Meat Industry, The Waterside Workers & the Building Industry. I suppose any influence the Catholic Church had in the Unions was to blunt the influence of the Communists. I even had to front a Meatworkers Court because I refused to donate 10/- the Communist Party. The Red Donation slip was on the end of the Union Ticket. I'd paid for my ticket but tore the red Donation slip off & gave it back. I remember all the signs, slogans & Bill Board were Hammer & Sickle & anti Pope & Catholic Church.

Still I don't think there was too much actual interference in day to day Politics as there is today. that I remember. Don't forget everyone was much more Conservative than they are to day. Even our most Conservative Politicians today would outrage the Pollies of the 50' & 60's. You could not even go out without a hat in those days. You were just not dressed.

As for Fred Nile, well he has been the laughing stock of Australian Politics long before the Greens took his place.

Oh yes, &, "This..., I believe." ;-)

Very good post, Paul, and I agree with you, however it doesn't answer the question about the Pope's direct interference and the pressure that the Church puts on some people to stop them exercising their rights as citizens of Australia.

Either you support the Papal stance or you don't.

Which is it?

Is Mise, I'll answer you for the last time on this subject. You need to be clearer in what you say a term like "its general knowledge", very hard to answer you unless you present facts, which as yet you have not put up anything to substantiate what you claim. Did you Google the name "Bergoglio" knowing who he is may add clarity for you to my answer. Remember a link or three to back you claim would be helpful. If everyone knows about it, then someone would have written about it...still waiting.
Jayb, thanks for the comments and the insight, I can't agree with "As for Fred Nile, well he has been the laughing stock of Australian Politics long before the Greens took his place." For some Fred was taken very seriously, (as are The Greens). I met Fred again during the last State campaign in NSW, he is quite a nice old bloke, the same day Kristina Keneally turned up, it was easy to gauge that the position of Premier had gone to her head, a very snobbish person was she, where as Fred was just the opposite, very friendly.
At the same election there was a Labor Party candidate running around distributing an anti Greens letter from none other than Archy Pell himself. Compared to other candidates from all other parties I have ever met, this Labor bloke was an out and out nutter. Fortunately he didn't win. I even said to a well known state Labor minister at the time. "Where did you get this nutter from." Her short answer was "Don't know, he's just in to make up the numbers, thank god!"
One bloke I became very close to during the early 70's with my involvement with the metal workers union was a true red if ever there was one, Laurie Carmichael, he was someone who could be relied upon to back the workers through thick and thin. Laurie was a very intelligent person to boot, who made plenty of enemies both in and out of the union movement for his beliefs.

http://workinglife.org.au/2013/11/15/the-wit-and-wisdom-of-laurie-carmichael/

Paul,

The Pope and hence the Church interfere in the democratic rights of some of our citizens via the clauses in Canon Law, that prohibit priests, deacons and members of religious orders from seeking election to public office.
This is clearly an intrusion into the domestic politics of this country; not many years ago a priest who had been elected to his local council was forced to resign by the Church.

Do you support this interference by the Catholic Church?
Do you support the democratic rights of priests etc., to seek public office if they wish?

I first met Fred Nile in 1980 and my first prominent Green, Ian Cohen, in 1979, both good blokes and both dedicated to helping people.
I knew Laurie Carmichael also and you describe him well.

Is Mise, you have made things somewhat clearer with you two questions.

Do you support this interference by the Catholic Church? No.

Do you support the democratic rights of priests etc., to seek public office if they wish? Yes. I may not agree with their point of view on many things, but I believe it is the democratic right of every citizen to seek public office, criminals excluded. One gray area I suppose is public servants. Should they also be able to run or not? As for priests I have absolutely no problem with them sitting on the local council or in parliament. Today we have an "almost" priest as PM.

Is Mise thanks but I built the boat so welcome aboard.
I wish we on both sides of the God issue could sit down and review the whole issue.
Impossible but truly needed.
Why must those of us who do not believe be ruled by the other side.
What purely freakish thoughts has for generations seen criminal pedophile,s flock to and be protected by the Catholic Church.
Yes other Churches too, and other faiths, but how can such institutions claim *any belief in a God*
Do they believe or is it just a job?
What benefits come from faith in a God as opposed to what science teaches us?

"What benefits come from faith in a God as opposed to what science teaches us?"

Hope?

Belly, all of us of goodwill long for a peaceful world, full of love and happiness for all. Unfortunately, and I'm sure you will be the first to agree, sadly we have fallen far short of that ideal. The human race has progressed a long, long way, as far as technology is concerned, we can put a man on the Moon and perform miracles of science, but we can't get on with each other. Be it an argument with our neighbor over the back fence or a world war, we simply find it impossible to respect and love the other fella and that is sad. Religion, rather than being a calming force for good, too often it has been exactly the opposite a force for hate and we see that very much today, all over the world. It is by far the biggest failure of the human race, only if we could apply some technology to fix the problem, but we can't.

Paul,

If only all Christians would follow the teachings of Christ!

BELLS/quote..<<.review the whole issue.>>

Why must those of us who do..believe be ruled by the other ATHEIST/side.,,AND CONTROLED BY ATHEIST GOVTS..godless couRTS ..and THUGS.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fakealqaeda.php
<<..What purely freakish thoughts..has for generations seen criminal pedophile,s flock to and be protected..by the Catholic Church.>>

ignore the atheist bias..but
What freakish govt has for centuries providED kids to secular govt public service..To 'members..to judges to..the party macvhine men..by police asnd child..'services'?

<<..how can such institutions claim..*any belief in a God*>>

belly institutions are Fictions Created by the state
its nOT,,institutions[they exisat only on paper..but those abusing the powers of their position

lest we forget we stole british kids..for kiddy fiddlers.. during ww2
lest we forget govt stole noT SO BLACK-KIDS..its rough out there when the powerful want sex..with YOUR KIDS..police come-in..and Simply take them..

[its that easy]..when the troopers come..hide your kiDS[THATS..what they do]..take away the father..rape the mum and KIDS..[its demonic mate]//NUT ITS SECULAR..plus on the wrong topic TO BOOT.[this is the PRAY THREAD

<<..Do they believe or is it just a job?>>

MATE..clearly kiddy fiddlers love whaT THEY DO..to our kids
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/01/17/20-history-questions-refuse-answer-school/
<<..What benefits come from faith in a God..>>

we know those who hurt kids
will themselves bE hurt many times worse..inb the eternity them earned to speND..with their raping masters[eterniTY..mate..for EVERY second of eternity..they will exp[erience the hell fire dam,mnation..of the godless vile evil they served.

<<..as opposed to what science teaches us.>

lol the science IS FRAUD..
http://www.blacklistednews.com/%27Agent_Orange_Corn%27%3A_Biotech_Companies_Are_Waging_a_Chemical_Arms_Race_on_Our_Food_Supply/32118/0/38/38/Y/M.html
TELL YOU what belly..yOU say what science..isnt fraud
and i will refute it to those able to comprehend it
WHICH..dont include you..you got faith..in..science..mate

HERE..is some of their lies
not/that you will read ANY.[lol]..of it..
cause thats who atheist/Masters use
http://whatreallyhappened.com/
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/congress-just-authorized-1-1-trillion-in-spending-and-nobody-read-the-bill_012014
http://www.bobtuskin.com/2014/01/18/epa-chief-cant-answer-question-about-obamas-global-warming-claims/
typical/eh? http://www.naturalnews.com/043559_superbug_outbreaks_endoscopes_hospitals.html
http://rinf.com/alt-news/latest-news/medical-cartels-newest-innovation/ http://whatreallyhappened.com/A%20New%20Bill%20in%20Tennessee%20Could%20Nullify%20Federal%20Gun%20Control%20Laws%20and%20Punish%20LEOs%20Who%20Try%20to%20Enforce%20Them
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2541599/Is-mini-ice-age-way-Scientists-warn-Sun-gone-sleep-say-cause-temperatures-plunge.html
http://metronews.ca/health/363279/canadian-problem-maybe-not-study-finds/
http://english.vov.vn/Society/Threemonth-old-baby-dies-from-Quinvaxem-vaccination/272379.vov

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/01/15/big-sugar-tips-balance-scale/

http://investmentwatchblog.com/government-admits-anthrax-vaccine-is-poison/
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/israeli-wmd-institute-used-soldiers-guinea-pigs-untested-anthrax-experiment/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2541178/Does-Diet-Coke-make-FAT-Sugar-free-fizzy-drinks-make-people-eat-food.html

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/15/health/fda-acetaminophen-dosage/
http://rinf.com/alt-news/latest-news/beyond-nsa-big-data-abuse-corporations-politicians/
THEY..want..us dependent..on their daily MEDS..not cures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWT8lNhn8Co

This could be offered to the Parliamentarians, as a replacement for the 'lords prayer', and used as their daily mantra.

'Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil'

Shouldnt be offensive at all to Jews, Muslims, Athiests or any of the other ones.

some people get offended at the smallest things
LIKE THIS MORNING..i was hearing god save the queen..SO I TOOK NOTE..of the words/as we live in the fruits of..its demise

only just heard..that a christian SONG..[alone YET NOT ALONE]..was rescinded from the oscars..[that REPORTEDLY..resembled a satanic rite]

I ALSO RECALL..THAT THE DAY..OF 911..there was to be a film of jesus released..[but wasnt..cause OF 911]..SO YES THERE is a war on..agAINST BELIEVERS..[not just MUSLIM ONES]

so saying...Originally, before the turn of the 20th century, there were 5 verses to "God Save the Queen"..now there are none..

1.
God save our gracious Queen,
Live long our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!

Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen.

2.
Our choicest gifts..are held..by you..in store
On her being..WE ARE pleased to pour,..[RESTORE].

Long may she reign;..fOR ALL OF US
May she defend our laws,and togetherness
And ever MAY SHE give us cause
To sing with common heart and voice,
God save the Queen!

3.
God bless our native land,
May heaven's protective hand
Still guard our shore;

May peace her power extend,
Foe be transformed to friend,
And Britain's power depend
On war no more...GOD SAVE OUR QUEEN..

4.
May just and righteous laws
Uphold the public cause,
And bless our COMMON WEAL..
.
Home of the brave and free,
Fair land and liberty,
We pray that still on thee
Kindest heaven may smile.

5.
And not this land alone-
But be thy mercies known

From shore to shore.
Lord, make the nations see
That men should brothers be,
And from one COMMON family
The wide world o'er.

Where is Henry VIII.
Oh dear God did a horrible job of saving him.
Monarchs seem to live just as long as normal people.
Oh Dear again, God fails again.

PONDE..<<..Where is Henry VIII...>>

he is still in the Cold part of hell
[see gone west]

<<..Oh dear God did a horrible job of saving him.>>

he can only 'save himself'..god loves us..trusts us with freewill
[those who deprive..other of freewill..god to hell..[as the meercat/says..its simpless]

<<..Monarchs seem to live just as long as normal people.>>

IS that a threat..or a promise
regardless i would need proof..[ok the KILL RATE..rich/poor..by doctors now has equalized..but thats what western medicine[me-die-sin]..does..

<<..Oh Dear again, God fails again...>>

[once it becomes clear..who we SERVE..why hang arround the entry of hell..its best we enter the true hell..]..its a mercy..[death where is thy sting?]

MANS LAW..IS BASED on..a POLICED/duty..to/OTHER/..as well as a serving of..*other..by threat..or force..or law..or oath...THEN/the false-god is..thrown in as A JUDGE/to Judge..[WE/YOU]..THE..LIVING.. AS SERFS BEASTS OF Burden..under DURESS AND THREAT

implicit..with god..is joy love grace mercy..[as the holy SPIRIT DWELLS IN THE LEAST..as much as the great]..it honors the living..over that of dead statehood fictions.

love..of other..living being..[that has been subverted..into..a duty/permission/license/duty..to serve the state..via the fiction..of rights..'statute's'..in their un-holy texts of..the crown/state..but this is a satanic perversion..]..

one cannot serve two masters]..

DO YOU..equally reject the whoreship of state..[OR just kings and believers?..or the latest media made heroes?..or just god 'believers'?..believing in good of god]..by serving the living sustained their life of god alone?

WE THINK DIFFERENT..WE both 'serve'..you serve the state/hood fictions..[artificial/FISCAL..dead person-hood..COMMERCE..sucking the life blood FROM THE LIVING..]

we serve..the goods..OF GOD..[life/logic/love/light]..of god as the only true merciful..state..towards spiritual GRACE...[the unseen]

,,<<.It would make me extremely happy if all religious people were, also, equally tolerant of other faiths.>>

yes we can agree..on this point for sure
..<<Do you see that happening any time soon?>>

not by govt bailing out the..Incorporated/dead..with the life blood of the living..not by forgiving the debts of the dead..but giving grace to the living..alone*

bY GODS GRACE ALONE..doth death release the pain

bY GODS GRACE ALONE..doth death release the pain.
Never heard of aspirin Endone morphine.
Oh dear - God loses again.
Medical science wins again.

pound..<<..Never heard of aspirin Endone morphine.>>

no i hadnt..but i do..the research..for you
http://novusdetox.com/oxycodone-addiction-detox.php

<<..Because all these drugs contain oxycodone, they can be dangerously addictive. Many people seeking oxycodone detox, including patients at Novus Medical Detox Center, became physically dependent or addicted to oxycodone while taking one or more of the combination prescription drugs listed above.

When taken for pain, oxycodone actually increases the pain in many people. This is a condition called opioid-induced hyperalgesia.

And the dozens of oxycodone-related crimes, illnesses and sudden deaths in the news any day of the week quickly reveal the sad and shocking number of Americans who are trapped by oxycodone addiction.>>

PLEASE DO THE RESEARCH
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=prescribed+adversE+REACTION+FATALITIES&

ONE IN 100 hospital admissions..is adverse reaction..to DOCTOR/prescribed GOVT SUBSIDIZED meds..[one in ten-FATAL]..

Oh dear - Medical science..loses IGNORANT'S LIVES..yet again.

JESUS WEEPS*
GOD SUFFERS...
BUT YET WE SUFFER THE IGNO*RANTS OF CHILDREN

We both have a tooth ache.
You can pray.
I will go see a dentist.
See who gets relief first.
I will even let you go to the dentist but you cannot use Novocaine.
Or you can even tie the tooth to a door knob
Novocaine is wonderful.
Medical science wins again.

ponde..<<..We both have a tooth ache...

thats funny..you picked up on that..[my canine/tooth..rotted from the inside out..I 'FELT'..THE PAIN went to a dentist..and they said its phantom pain..just ignore IT.

so i did..three YEARS LATER..IT JUSt BRoke OFF[its now just a black stump..yet i feel no pain..[i believed them saying it was phantom pain]

so have learned..to ignore it..thus feeL NO PAIN
[I VISITED THE HEMP EMBASSY THE OTHER DAY..noted many rooted teeth..i GUESS GOVT PICKS AND CHOOSES..the winners from the whiners

<<..you can pray..>>....PRAY FOR WHAT..IM NOT FEELING THE PAIN

<,..I will go see a dentist.
See who gets relief first...>>

OK..i win..i saw the dentist 3 to 4 years ago
they said go away...i sought relief..from man..threy refused iy[but it wasnt my pain..[see previously..to that..i felt pain..going ON 11 YEARS AGO..

THE DENTIST..looked into my smokers mouth..and said yet again..the teeth are fine..[said they just need a clean..so was booked in for a 'clean']..

i agreed thinking maybe he will notice the injured tooth after cleaning it..anyhow he 'cleaned'..my teeth..with a fine drill[etched out the enamel/between..the teeth..aND on the gum Line

since the 'clean'..THAT WAS VERY PAINFUL..AND BLOODY[THATS 'NORMAL APPARENTLY]..HALF OF MY teeth were gradually pulled out..

mainly..BECAUSE GOVT DECLARED WAR ON ME..[MADE MY SMOKERS MOUTH..look like the adverts on the smOkes packages]..its truely demonic

if a tooth IS SICK..HEAL THE TOOTH
NOT DULL THE PAIN.

<<..I will even let you go to the dentist>>

no PLEASE YOU GO FIRST

i love the pain..[its not my pain..but the paIN..earned by the dentist..that caused it[more of the same..will be given..to him]

not me
so i simply let it be

2bcTD

CTD
but you got rotten teeth..just like me
<<..but you cannot use Novocaine...<>>

its not my pain
iTS HIS..he created it..its his pain
<<..Or you can even tie the tooth to a door knob>>

thats old fashoned..MINE BREAK JUST EATING

<<Novocaine is wonderful.>>

NO TOOTH PAIN..is preventable
in a caring world..they seek to heal pain..cure sickness not supress the signs..to create ever more new sins ..like,,'opioid-induced hyperalgesia.''[SEE PREVIOUS POST]

..Medical science wins ..the painful harvest..yet again.
those who profiteer from our suffering..are demons..demons who inflict pain..reap their bitter harvest..in hell..for eternity..ps no opioid works..in hell

they shall FEEL THE PAIN 70 FOLD
but that THOUGHT helps me FEEL NO PAIN
its sad enough they felt inspired to hurt RATHER than hweal ME
but the pain they induced TO ME..dont hurt a bit

[i refuse to BE blamed..for their pain.]

thus chose to feel nothing
no one wins..if we only SUPPRESS PAIN
if its yours..bear it like jesus,..[turn the other cheek]

IF YOU DIDNT,,cause it
it was never yours..you were simply allowed the pre empathy..for those who earned it...for eternity..they will know what they did to other..they really only did to themsELVES.

ponde,
The point is there is nothing existing that has not been given existence by the creator of all reality; including the human brain that is made in the image of the creator. Nothing that the human mind can create does not have it's existence apart from all reality. However not all combinations of chemicals or processes are healthy to life and existence.

When all natural solutions fail we can only rely on prayer. Prayer can open possibilities to natural solutions by opening up a creative mind. Guilt, anger and fear can distort reality which prayer can overcome.

Josephus,
Prayer can never work.
How do you know which god to pray to.
A bit conceited to think it is your particular God.
You and your neighbour pray to a different God.
Why is your God better than his.
Prayer is the same is wishing and answers come at the same rate.
There has never been a prayer answered by divine intervention.
If medical science cannot fix it prayer is not going to fix it either.
Open up a creative mind LOL ROFL

One under the nonexistant.
Tooth pain is not preventable even with fluoridated water dentists are still kept busy.
If you have a recipe for perfect teeth tell a dentist they would love to be out of business.
If there was a god there would be no pain.
"God causes pain" - why ?? Is he malevolent?

ponde,
Don't show your ignorance. Pray to the God who created all things. There is only one Creator.

ponde,
Try living without a nervous system; which pain identifies body problems. You will not accept the reality that exists as creator designed.
Your understanding of the God of creation is infantile. Recognize God as Creator and respect His creation principles. Abuse of the body functions will lead to pain as well as natural laws.

PONDE/Quote..<<..Prayer can never work.>>

so YOU tried it..once..and you think it wasnt heard?
mate..if you can do it thyself..why ask him..did you pray..or prey.

god must use reason..to do it's granting..naturally
like if you think you need something..someone else needs to loose it
[or if you seek riches..and god knows that hurt you..its granted after this life[but money is of no use in the next LIfe..]..THING IS DID YOU PRAY FOR OTHER..OR JUST YOU..its all important.

>>..How do you know which god to pray to.>>

think of it like this your mother..is in a room full of mothers
if you call mum..your own mother replies..you might not know his voice..but he knows yours.

<<..A bit conceited to think it is your particular God.>>

RUBBISH..THERE ARE FAULSE GODS GALORE[EVERY SIN..every vice EVERY DELUSION..has its 'god head'..but only one true living holy spirit..sustains every life its living.

<<..You and your neighbour pray to a different God.>>

sure...so..he love football..thUS preys to his football gods
they arnt..the holy spirit..but the holy spirit care not the least what we love oR HATE..ONLY THAT WE GET/find A LIFE TO find our own beliefs..

,,..Why is your God better than his.....>
BECAUSE HE miss-THINKS GOD IS A JUDGE..because she thinks god is..A MAN..BECAUSE THEY THINK god is a baseball player..because they feel their kids are gods[who knows /who cares..god knowable..by his sign;is life logic love grace mercy good light ,,etc[once you kNOW GOd=all good..you cant be decieved.

,,<<Prayer is the same is wishing..>>..AND THE GOD SUSTAINING OUR LIFE KNOWS OUR NEEDS BEFORE WE EVEN ASK

<<..and answers come at the same rate.>>

agreed

<<.There has never been a prayer answered by divine intervention.>>

YOUR PROOF PLEASE?

<<If medical science cannot fix it prayer is not going to fix it either...

your PROOF?

,,..<<..Tooth pain is not preventable even with fluoridated water dentists are still kept busy.>>

not SO..high alcaline supposedly restores teeTH
HIGH ACIDITY CAUSES DECAY[SOME TIME AGO[8 years or so ago]..they found aN ANTibiotic that kills the tooth rot bacteria[they could eliminate teeth decay IF IT WASnt so proffITABLE

TILL I TEST THESE CURES..how can i ask god TO FIX that he has already sent to me unasked?

<<If you have a recipe for perfect teeth tell a dentist they would love to be out of business.>>[BULLDUST..ITS EASY MONEY..rootcannelS COST 1000;s..eASY MONEY..If you can coNVINCE MUNS TO FEED THeir kids sugary drinks that turn to acid.

<<If there was a god there would be no pain.>>

any pain..we feel..god sustaining our living feels
know this..he really shares our PAINs..EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEm..god alone lovES EVERY ONE.

<<"God causes pain" - why ?? Is he malevolent?>>

NO HE IS OMNIPRESENT

OUG
so YOU tried it..once..and you think it wasn't heard?
mate..if you can do it thyself..why ask him..did you pray..or prey.

Billions if not trillions prayers have been said over the ages.
Do you think god must be pretty sick of ignoring every one.
There has never been a prayer answered by divine intervention.
Man grows back amputated leg!!
Man wins lottery without buying a ticket.
The Pope lives twice as long as a normal person.
Loaves of bread mysteriously appear in starving village.

Nothing absolutely nothing.

If he does exist he is in a galaxy far far away.

Why worship a being that has never answered a single prayer.

Again the burden of proof is on you, name one miracle.

It is good to hear however that you have perfect teeth, congratulation.

An antibiotic for tooth decay good idea but the saliva in your mouth would disable it - or the toothpaste makers would add it.

NO HE IS OMNIPRESENT AND MALEVOLENT.

That is why you should look at the oncology ward in a children's hospital, so much suffering and all unasked.

Josephus.

Your understanding of Evolution is infantile.
If an individual was born without nerves it would not survive to pass on its genes.

Ponde,

Still awaiting your explanation of the miraculous, (for want of a scientific word), cures at Lourdes.
If those cures were not in answer to prayer as claimed then what explains them?

In the Church I attend we have two women who pray each morning and decide upon a plan for the day of who they look for in the street by signs i.e. wearing red shoes, straw hat, Porsche car etc. They approach that person in the street and identify what they are suffering from. When the person sees there is insight into their condition they ask if they would like prayer. They have seen miracles happen before their eyes. People come up to them days later and thank them. I personally do not fully accept this practice but to them and the people they pray for are astounded by fact.

i dont PRAY..AS i know..THE COLLECTIVE-god knows what i wish..it never needs asking
[i dont 'do'..gods will..as his only will is that we will.

<<..prayers have been said over the ages.
Do you think god must be pretty sick of ignoring every one.>>

your getting it backwards..gods spirit..is inside you..[the prayer]
THOSE Who seek to serve god..[ie you]..hear And obey..[unless they see it could hurt god[you]..OR OTHER*..who are god too

in essence..those..who love and serve god..swore to serve you..the most[as much as the least..its said..gods servants..serve eveN..the beast.in the field[who too dont know how great his life gift is[how great GOD ART]

<<..There has never been a prayer answered by divine intervention.>>

you are divine,,you just dont know it
thing is you got no proof..josephus..too is divine..but he reveals this in his words as well as WORKS..you dont comprehend prayer..thus cant even RECOGNIZE,..if 'it'..works

Doth..a WEEPING BABE..KNOW ITS MOTHER CHANGED ITS POOPY DIAPER
Possibly..did he care who changed it..or who gave him fuel..to fill the next one?

<<..Man grows back amputated leg!..>>
why when a will of man created the debt?
you stole my leg..its now yours..i shall get a new one..you shall have the old one kicking you for eternity[if you did it of ill WILL.

REGARDLESS..did YOU ASK..please present your proof.

[MAN KIND HAS LONG STUDIED..the salamanders..in time we shall regrow legs..[would you takeaway the motivation..to FIND THE LEARNINGS.. TOWARD..A remedy..or assume the blame..

bad things happen..to seemingly good people..for many reasons
we asked for freewill..thUs EARN as we learn..from karMA

[AS WE life live upon life..in the last life you may have taken..A LIMB..OR INNOCENCE..OR A LIFE..so you couldn't/wouldn't accept grace..till you 'lived'..it.

some people learn from signs..from others experiences..yet others..need live it..so they/WE do.

<<..Man wins lottery without buying a ticket.>>

illogical..so why pray for insanity
alternately..he was gifted..it..or found it or stOLE IT Or faked it

<<..The Pope lives twice as long as a normal person.>>

YOU HAVE A Logical mind..but must know thats insane[but more insane=Believing god wILLS ANY TO DIE..BUT FOR GREATER REWARDS..Our life GIFT=is sacred..

but its as hell..compared to that we rejected..to here come.

<<..Loaves of bread mysteriously appear in starving village.>.

could eassyt be made to happen
CUT OFF FROM A VILLAGE HELPERS COME
but you forget..we all need sleep[in our life we may recieve..love or hate[but in our dreams we get its balancing[sure yoU MAY//Llive lifes dreaming..in hunger..but in your dreams you partake in the huge heavenly fEAST

its the same for most things
THINK WHY WE NEED SLEEP..tO get OUR just DESERTS

<..Nothing absolutely nothing.>>

then you fall asleep..And are given everthing

<<..If he does exist he is in a galaxy far far away.>>

were i so inclined..i would chase the meak one away..from your meat
i could then say tO YOU..ok now show how you make your boby LIVE

thing is even your most clever scientist..cant do even a fractION..of the life priopcess even the most simple cell..appears to do..[but a cell is dumber than me..and even i dont got a clue[but god does it effortlessly..seamlessly..omnipresentLY..constantly..eternally..for every living being[even you]

alternately..please show how you do it
how do you make yoUR heart beat..how do you..make yOUR BREATH flow?

<<..Why worship a being that has never answered a single prayer.>>

BECAUSE HE IS THE MEANS..of LIFE..NOT THE WAY

<<..Again the burden of proof is on you, name one miracle.>>

your every breath..your every heartybeat..
you ability to make sense OF WORDS..your freewill..look at a lead..now try to make just one like it[we have seen the most skilled scientists..yet not one CAN make a simple hand..or even a simple CEll membrane..

SURE..they CAN gut out the dna,..put in a twenty bit chunk of rna and clAIM..they 'made' life..but..they took a living cell..killed many..to make the one we saaw in the news

first make just one life..LIKE ANY..'LOWER-life'

<,..It is good to hear however that you have perfect teeth, congratulation.>>

CLEVER

not*

<<..An antibiotic for tooth decay[IS]..good idea but the saliva in your mouth would disable it>>

THATS NOT SCIENTIFICLY CONSISTANT..if we took every bit of dna..from your 'body'..over 90 percent..of it isnt 'yours'

IN FACT IF WITH A Wand..we could remove every micro/beast/fungi/wornm..bacteria etc etc..from your boDY..it would die[we need the micro beasts..to keep us alive.

and yet scientists stay mute..[or wage war against the very 'other'..lives sustaining our own..'lie'/LIFE

<<..or the toothpaste makers would add it.>>

MATE TOOTH PASTE..IS TO MAKE YOU DOCILE
fleuride has long been added to our waters..to passify the angry
first thing they do in jail..is give yoU your own fleuride supply..think why?

<<..NO HE IS OMNIPRESENT AND MALEVOLENT.>>
i know your mind is sickened..in a sick body..lord
so i forgive theee..[thus myself]..thy knowest not what thy sayS[its THE FLUORIDE..or microbeast poisoning..OR LACK OF Sleep..or thy other selves karma.

<<..That is why you should look at the oncology ward in a children's hospital, so much suffering and all unasked.>.

WERE YOU OF THYNE Right mind lord..you would know..they asked for this insanity..by their previous..but not forgotten LIFE..mainly because THEY YET AGAIN..FORGET WHO THEY REALLY ARE.

but ye lord were alone..now o'lord we are many
but dO WE remove THE DREAM..or improve it via vivid dreaming..to make a happy ending..where we all win.

Josephus: we have two women who pray each morning and decide upon a plan for the day of who they look for in the street by signs i.e. wearing red shoes, straw hat, Porsche car etc. They approach that person in the street and identify what they are suffering from.

Yes, we have a couple of nutters around here too. Old Jim the JW sends all his trainees up to see me. He's lost a few.

There ain't no doG.

JAYb..<<..There ain't no doG...>>

an easy refutable delusion
there not only is a dog..its family..canus has 39 species

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

if you really 'believe'..in no god..
at least have the gumption..to use the correct term..

say what you really mean..jay
there not only is dog..but each dog too is god.

cheers..oh high and mighty lord..jaby

I was being dyslexic.

YEP BEEN THERE//done that..too
anyhow..its time we talked of HRH..meeting the pope
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2551259/Queen-call-Pope-Vatican-B-B-Francis-break-protocol.html

[THE 5 th pope..hrh has met]
one trusts THE AU GG..PASSED ON THE LETTER..ANYHOW.. we live in hope

NOTED..The popes lent..message
http://ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chronicles/full-text-pope-francis-lenten-message

''..God is greater than our sinfulness,..know..that he freely loves us at all times..and that we were made for..intimate personal communion and..our message..of eternal life. The Lord asks us to be joyous heralds of this message of mercy and hope!

''It is thrilling to experience the joy of spreading this good news, sharing the..eternal treasure entrusted to us,..SO..consoling broken hearts and offering hope to our brothers and sisters experiencing darkness.

Lent means following..the way..of love..and imitating Jesus, who sought out..the rejected poor and sinners as a shepherd lovingly seeks his lost sheep.//In union with Jesus, we can courageously open up new paths of ev*angelisation..and humane promotion...of humanity..revealing..the holy spirit.

Dear brothers and sisters,..may this Lenten season find the whole Church ready to bear witness to all those who..reside..in material, moral and spiritual destitution..ignorant..of the Gospel message of the merciful love of God our Father,..who is ready to embrace everyone..in Christ...We can so this..to the extent that we imitate Christ..who became poor and enriched us..by his poverty.

Lent is a fitting time..for self-denial;..we would do well to ask ourselves..with so much..what we can give up..in order to help and enrich others..by our own..chosen poverty...for those..with no choice.

Let us not forget..that real poverty hurts:..no self-denial is real without this dimension*..of penance...I distrust a charity that costs nothing and does not hurt.

May the Holy Spirit,..through whom..we are poor,..yet making many rich;..THAT..as having nothing,..and yet possessing everything',HE sustain us in our resolutions and increase our concern and responsibility..for human destitution,..AND Do that we can become merciful and act with mercy.

In expressing this hope,..I likewise pray that each individual member of the faithful..and every Church community will undertake a fruitful Lenten journey.

I ask all of you to pray for EACH OTHER.
May the Lord bless you..and Our Lady keep you safe.

NOTED..The popes lent..message
Why is the pope lending out messages? How much do they cost?

know..that he freely loves us at all times
Funny way of showing it with the starving in Africa - Tsunamis killing thousands. Wars, pestilence.

Lent is a fitting time..for self-denial
I gave up going to church for lent sixty years ago and still holding strong. Please pray for my further strength.

May the Lord bless you..and Our Lady keep you safe.
So there will be no deaths this weekend - good to hear.
How wide is your circle of influence - world or just you.

Ponde,

Have you worked out yet why there are scientifically unexplainable cures at Lourdes?

ponds/pun..<<..Why is the pope lending out messages? How much do they cost?..>>

as jesus said[in his acim]..ideas..can be given away..forever
once we get the idea..its ours to share.give use or rejeCT.

<<..know..that he freely loves us at all times..>>
is the fruit..of hope..of just one 'idea'.

its your OWN..idea..i affirm [hoLD]..as a SACRED truth.

no matter,,how vile..any living thing is in ouR eyes
god still loves us all equally..[he is the good..[loving/graceful/pure..useful..true]..of love..not the hurtful/love of spite..or greedy hoarder/loving sub*version of ideas]

<<..Funny way of showing it with the starving in Africa>>

this is bY MENS WILL..not gods[look if we wish..to go to hell..then we shouldnt complain..ONCE..we get here/further of you dont believe..'in god'..then you loose all right to complain//of things you think he did..if you say he dont exists..you cant blame him[or just LOOK ignorant]

example..god dont exist..
so why SAY..does he senD..anything

<<..Tsunamis killing thousands. Wars, pestilence.>>

if no god..then he didn't SEND THEM
man nature..may have[or chance]..ask your dorkins mate..ASK HIM.

aND AS for pestilence..thats atheist/demons
THE ELITE 144,000..tuning his CREATION..as if their fiefdom/slave camp[and they dont need this many slaves any/more..[its gods will they continue TO FAIL..[up-untill now][we..were told..of these times are not cut short..two thirds will die.

well we tried many times to awake you sleepers
mow SATANIST DEMONS RUN THE JOINT..

2b ctd

And as ..no one is praying noT TO..they will..continue to do as demons do.

,,..<<.Lent is a fitting time..for self-denial
I gave up going to church for lent sixty years ago and still holding strong. Please pray for my further strength...>>

I DONT PRAY..because many prayers[like yours]..pray to demons
and there is more prayer energy given..ALREADY..to demons..[often in ignorance]

then after you attract the demons
you throw this..,,<<May the Lord bless you>>[THEITR LORD IS SATAN]

<<..and Our Lady keep you safe.>>[IE DONT DRINK THE COOLAID[IE DONT TAKE THE BLUE PILL..dont get the flue shot..thats for the sheeple.

but as your previous pray attracted demons..your delusions energize them more..<<..So there will be no deaths this weekend - good to hear.
How wide is your circle of influence - world or just you.>>

MY CIRCLE ..of influence..is only as far as the pen FLOWS OVER THE WEB

but my influence..[in-FLUX]..IN-SPI-RATION..[IN-PUTS..OF SPIRIT MIND]
from the de-MONS AROUND ME..extends only as far as our minds meet...AND OUR WILL Synche-up.

to think it
is to bring morE OF IT..INTO YOUR MIND.

[think why all is demons..on tv/games hurt injury murder mayhem
you love it..or else it wouldnt enter into your awaremess.