Gday Hasbeen, as strange as you may find it my written words are my true thoughts.
And in this matter I am quite sure more agree than not, clean energy is the preferred future for us all.
Even hard as you may find it, it is the future.
I rather think we all, owe much of our distrust of all things green, to the party of that name, and plainly silly actions like the protest against Russian oil drillers.
We have got in to the habit of seeing every such movement/suggested path, as madness, but we must learn to discriminate.
It is a side issue to this thread, part of it but only a branch.
Tea Party, only a part but currently controlling the Republicans, is not including it, as a reason for the lock own.
Soon I see big questions for the Republicans as a whole, next years mid term election needs radical reform from them, or punishment for todays actions will surely come.
We may well see, even by this time next week, the very real impacts, and the unknown consequences frighten far more world wide.
Out come? I think Tea Party will not blink, but true Republicans will.

What about both 'sides' as you see it using some their claimed skills in diplomacy and sitting down to talk?

Just taking President Obama by way of example, is he is to have any credibility in resolving disputes abroad, what about doing something at home?

If a rump of citizens believe there is fiscal irresponsibility and overspending by government, what about surfacing their allegations and fears and discussing their examples? That is the democratic way, yes? Maybe if Obama can prove better returns for taxpayers' money and hopefully savings elsewhere, he would have hope of progress.

I am not familiar with this subject, but was intrigued by the post of OUG on page 2. Especially the first two sentences, see below.

suzie..compulsory insurance dont make sick
people better..if they cant pay..the top-up

3 trillion..plus..to..enforce a product..
the poor cant afford to use
its abuse

Would any posters like to comment on what OUG said? Is he correct that it will not help the poor?

Dear Belly,

Obamacare would force American citizens to purchase something (health-insurance) even if they don't want it, even those who as a matter of principle will never use that 'service'.

That is wrong - and good on the tea party for doing whatever they can to prevent it.

Note that I am not opposed to the state financially helping poor people who WANT to receive medical services but cannot afford to pay for them: but those who are not interested in the service as well as those who can pay for it themselves, should not be included.

Disturbingly, we already have such a system in Australia. Medicare is perpetuated by the powerful AMA Mafia/cartel, designed to provide unfair advantage to its members and their specific discipline. Even the Australian government is held as their hostage.

All the tax-funded Medicare money goes to 'medical doctors' and the hospitals and laboratories that are under their control. Even within the medical profession, only those who are registered and comply with the AMA's internal regulations are eligible to benefit from this enormous budget.

Alternative forms of medicine are thus severely discriminated against. You may believe in whatever system of medicine you like and accordingly receive the treatment of your choice for your ailments. Suppose you believe that witch-doctors are all fraud and of no benefit - fine, so just don't use their services. Yet what about your neighbour who believes the same about conventional medicine? or even who wishes to see a medical-doctor who does not comply with AMA's regulations? Assuming you both have the same financial situation, why should one of you be paid from my tax-payer's purse and the other not?

I have no objections if you take whatever tax you need to help the poor with their health, the way they want, including with their toothaches and disabilities.

Yet Medicare should be made optional! Australians should be able to opt out of it!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-shutdowns-losers-and-not-quite-losers/2013/10/06/7c6b0828-2e93-11e3-9ccc-2252bdb14df5_story.html
This link is at least informative.
It while showing clearly more Americans blame Republicans than Democrats has its own bias.
But I recommend a read, for those looking for insights to the whole thing.
It is my opinion, based on reading American points of view, Republicans are in true danger from this matter.
And looking for a win, to cover up its basic problem, its inability to attract the African American and Latino vote, without them it can not win elections.
Note however even in this link acknowledgment, that the whole thing boarders on madness can be found.

Banjo OUG was simplistic in his stated view in my opinion.
Let us all be aware why that insurance is needed, and in doing so rebut that claim, it is wrong.
If a child or parent is dieing in some states, and not insured they will not be treated.
One of our women got to the very heart of this issue.
Reminding us of the *great wealth* medicine and health practitioners get in America.
In fact health is just that, a money making industry.
Remember, we Australians must understand, Republicans are looking for one thing, the death of Obarma care.
That is in my view near evil, if we had to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars or see our sick not treated we would understand the greatness in Obarma care and its wonderful reforms much needed.
If any Nation forgets sections of humanity for financial reasons it can not claim it has a God.
For those non-believer like me substitute God for heart and humanity.