http://www.smh.com.au/comment/republicans-stuck-in-reality-they-created-20131003-2uxak.html
While the whole world watch s and wonders America will be the first victim.
The link talks about the Republicans and in my view mirrors majority view in that country.
So the first standout result may be the mid term elections in the American Senate.
On those elections the future of the Tea Party and its struggling victim the Republican Party stands or falls.
Well before that date America and the worlds economy maybe fractured too.
What are our thoughts?

Dear Belly,

Political commentators continue to tell us that
"It seems that the Republican Party post George W. Bush
has been more savage than before, driving hard for the
maximum political advantage on every issue possible,
no matter the cost."

It appears that President Obama's health care or "Obamacare,"
as it's called is not the issue.

One commentator summed things up as follows:

"Cutting off wages to federal employees and their families,
shuttering national parks and halting routine workplace
safety and mine safety inspections - all these comprise
merely an opening gambit ... what they want is what the
corporations and individuals who funded their campaign want:
austerity spending cuts, tax cuts for the rich, perks for
fossil fuel industries, cuts to ... health care and
food stamps and the like."

Now why does this sound so very familiar? ;-)

This thread has many branches like a very old tree Foxy.
Each of them will impact on the world at large I see just some of the outcomes this way.
Will it lead to success for the Tea Party or its death.
How can the Republicans regain the trust of that part of America most hurt by this shutdown.
The very level of dept we are told is behind this, can America ever repay it.
Will the worlds impacts see a change in the whole financial system.
Just how could America not be harmed by this.
No joy here for anti USA posters we too are at risk, not because of our debt levels, America and almost all of Europe would gladly swap.
I think this can be as dangerous as a Nuclear bomb going of in the middle east.
Only not the deaths by that but as the worst out come a world unable to trust its investment system and it reliance on credit.

Obomber meets with Goldman Sachs for New Line of Credit – in Violation of US Law
http://www.globalresearch.ca/obama-meets-with-goldman-sachs-for-new-line-of-credit-in-violation-of-us-law/5352631

‘The current U.S. President has chosen to meet outside of government law, possibly selling off additional parts of the nation’s sovereignty – to men in suits who are more than ready to capitalize on the current US budget crisis.’

We need to remember that deal that former Greek President Papandreou made with Goldman Sachs to conceal Greece's debt with currency swaps, which actually doubled Greece's debt!

Is Obama about to make the same mistake?

http://investmentwatchblog.com/national-health-care-obamacare-unfunded-liabilities-9-29-trillion/
http://xrepublic.tv/node/5605
many curious things
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-03/troops-forage-for-food-while-golfers-play-on-in-shutdown.html

shutting down..non govt funded parks[recallthey are security..promised to china..for bailout credits]
http://intellihub.com/2013/10/03/government-shuts-down-park-that-receives-no-government-funding/

100th birthday present..from the fed
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/happy-100th-birthday-income-taxes-or-how-the-rich-have-gamed-the-system-to-pay-a-smaller-share/75691/

as i told..long ago..fortknox gold is gone
http://investmentwatchblog.com/world-bank-all-gold-in-fort-knox-is-leased-is-no-longer-included-in-reserves/

executive orders that terrify
http://investmentwatchblog.com/you-can-t-handle-the-truth-executive-orders-that-terrify/

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/on-the-news-with-thom-hartmann-wages-have-gone-down-nearly-seven-percent-since-the-recession-and-more/75740/

current day which hunts
http://original.antiwar.com/andrew-p-napolitano/2013/10/02/government-looking-for-witches-will-find-them/

Obama is an American catastrophe. He is waging war on the very people he is supposed to favor.

He is destroying the economy & jobs in many states to repay his campaign funders in the green movement.

He has thrown billions of tax payer dollars at alternate energy companies owned by his campaign donors , & now bankrupt after much of those funds were "harvested" by those donors.

He is pouring money into companies like GE also donors, who are making a killing in "green" industries of little worth.

I think most yanks have now woken up to the fool, just a little too late.

Lets hope they manage to stop him before too many ordinary yanks pay too high a price for their foolishness in electing him.

Dear Hasbeen,

The New York Times holds a different opinion to yours.

According to The New York Times, its the Republican
Party that is at fault. They're the ones who have
extracted $1.7 trillion in budget cuts out of the
Federal Government (now that's what you can call
austerity). The influence of The Tea Party is very
strong and they've had dummy spits since they lost
the ellection. This is their way of revenge.

Obama was popularily elected last year. None of this
matters to the Republicans.

As one reader stated on the web:

"The Republicans are not thinking strategically here.
They're just a bunch of angry old white men and their
hangers on lashing out in impotent frustrated anger
at an America that no longer shares their demographic.
Eventually they will have to give in and this will add
to their collective humiliation."

It is a disaster for America what these people are
doing. They are also in effect demanding the deaths of over
40,000 fellow Americans each year from the lack of
health insurance by opposing "Obamacare." And that's
a disgrace for a country like America.

"Obamacare greatly improves the health care industry
for 44 million Americans who currently don't have
health insurance. They are covered under the new
health care law. It provides better preventive care, women's
health services, better care for seniors and expanded coverage
of its nation's poorest. It also prevents insurance
companies from dropping you when you are sick."

As one reader summed up, "No one likes a spoiled brat.
Especially a stupid one."

Foxy,

A lengthy article from The Economist.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21587211-land-free-starting-look-ungovernable-enough-enough-no-way-run-country?fsrc=scn/tw_ec/no_way_to_run_a_country

"When you are brawling on the edge of a cliff, the big question is not “Who is right?”, but “What the hell are you doing on the edge of a cliff?”"

"Battles over spending are nothing unusual—indeed, Congress has not passed a proper budget on time since 1997. But this battle represents something new. House Republicans are blocking the budget not because they object to its contents, but because they object to something else entirely: Barack Obama’s health-care reform...."

"The second reason is that Republicans are setting a precedent which, if followed, would make America ungovernable. Voters have seen fit to give their party control of one arm of government—the House of Representatives—while handing the Democrats the White House and the Senate. If a party with such a modest electoral mandate threatens to shut down government unless the other side repeals a law it does not like, apparently settled legislation will always be vulnerable to repeal by the minority. Washington will be permanently paralysed and America condemned to chronic uncertainty."

Dumb.

But the "really big threat of shutdown" is looming...

"It gets worse. Later this month the federal government will reach its legal borrowing limit, known as the “debt ceiling”. Unless Congress raises that ceiling, Uncle Sam will soon be unable to pay all his bills. In other words, unless the two parties can work together, America will have to choose which of its obligations not to honour. It could slash spending so deeply that it causes a recession. Or it could default on its debts, which would be even worse, and unimaginably more harmful than a mere government shutdown. No one in Washington is that crazy, surely?"

Crazy....

Dear Poirot,

Excellent article and much appreciated.

Surely no one is really that crazy and these people
will back down in time?
They were elected to serve the people, not to hold
them to ransom.

Only in America?

Right?

Foxy, Belly,

A more succinct article this time - but right on target.

"The Shutdown in 10 Infuriating Sentences"

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/10/shutdown-debt-ceiling-explained

I never really understood the whole 'lock down' situation in the US, but the articles in this thread have helped.
"This whole dispute is about the Republican Party fighting to make sure the working poor don't have access to affordable health care. "

That is disgusting!
My sister worked as an RN in Alabama a few years ago, and was horrified at the neglected health system there. She said that the hospitals were woefully stocked and staffed, compared to those in Australia.

She stated that she couldn't continue working there after seeing several very sick and dying patients turned away from this hospital because they didn't have insurance.
She still wonders what happened to those people.

All those people here who whinge about Medicare should check out the terrible two-tiered health system in the US...the haves and the have nots.

The Republicans seem to just want to look after their business interests and fund their middle to High class lifestyles, despite what is happening to the disadvantaged citizens.

Hmmm...let's hope our own Government doesn't follow suit.

suzie..compulsory insurance dont make sick
people better..if they cant pay..the top-up

3 trillion..plus..to..enforce a product..
the poor cant afford to use
its abuse

bitter fruits..bring bitter harvest
the american system is the worst..for the poor
money savings=capitalists profit..at least in china..the capital gain..need is cut out

anyhow..they will still be sick
how can we fix that..

just like the pollution tax..its just another bailout..for the insurance industry..that underwrote 4 quadrillion of bad securities..as AAA

i say let the thieves fail
then LOCAL govt takes over..via sheffifs

where capitalist gains FAiLED HUGELY
the sherrifs..will declare MARSHAL..lore
lock up the mr-biggs in china..and russia gulags
and seize BACK..the assets of the rich..that stole it all..from...the poor.

some work..for money
other's connive/collude treason..on how to steal it..from the workers./.who..truely are earning less..than is their rightful due

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for the link.

It's quite scary that actions like these are allowed
in a country that prides itself on being a "Government
for the people, by the people," et cetera.

But then I guess they're also a country that stretches
"individual rights" to the extreme (like gun ownership)
despite the problems for society.

Foxy,

GOP voted against gun control...and against Obamacare.

Right-wing nutters, actually.

Yes Foxy, the issue of 'the right to bear arms' in a country where there is no right to health care if needed, is amazing.

Apparently, in America, your 'right' to own a gun, just in case other gun owners want to shoot you, is more important than your right to affordable health care.

Thank goodness we live in good old Oz !

I am sure Foxy Hasbeen is not a bad bloke, but the world holds different views than him.
Polls, not ones taken here but in America, and commentary from within the Republican party, say America for the most part, blames the Republican Tea Party for this.
They understand, some of us do, that without rises to Americas borrowing limit, they, maybe the world, face a nightmare recession.
And have used both those who voted for them, and the system, to try to kill off Obarma care.
Innocuous it is in no way as good as our system, one very few of us would not want to keep,used as a blackmailing tool by no representative Tea Party extremists..
After the last election the Republicans, and middle America, took on board this truth.
To win future elections Republicans needed to embrace Latino Americans.
This act does the very opposite.
Today we look on in interest.
But if it continues? believe me no one knows how bad we may all suffer.
ENRON and a host of others may look like a kids picnic in comparison.

Republicans truly, see help to the poor as near communism, how long can they not live in this century?

Dear Poirot and Suse,

There's the persistent belief that, since criminals
have guns, law-abiding people need them for self
protection. Actually, gun-owning households are
much more likely to suffer fatalities from their own
weapons than from those of outsiders. One study found
that only 2 percent of all slayings in gun-owning
households were for self-protection; the remainder were
suicides, homicides, or accidental deaths, almost all
involving family members, friends, or acquaintances.
Also, the proliferation of handguns in the US is the
belief, deeply held by many Americans, that gun ownership
is an individual right.

It seems to me though that for granting this liberty to
the individual, American society certainly pays a heavy
price in the deviance of those who abuse it.

As for what the Republican Party is currently doing in
the US - it appears to simply be wrong. There should be
set limits that public officials dare not violate.
How can they hold a nation to ransom? I would have thought
that there would be formal restraints such as laws limiting
the exercise of power, constitutional arrangements for the
impeachment of officials. No one group should be allowed to
obtain a monopoly over such power.

Ladies, I think this is just a trial run for the argument coming up on credit limit.

I think they have decided that the US can not let the fool Obama get them any deeper into debt than he already has. They caved in allowed him to increase their debt ceiling before, but I think they are signaling that they are less likely to do so again.

They believe Obama will run up so much debt, while destroying so much earning capacity, that they have to make a stand.

Those who live off the government want Obama to continue spending like a drunken sailor, but more sensible folk know that is the way to becoming the new Greece.

Will sanity prevail, you have to doubt it, when so many have their hand out for their bit of the largess.

Dear Hasbeen,

These guys want what the corporations and individuals
who funded their campaigns want. Tax cuts for the
rich, perks for fossil fuel industries, cuts to
health care, and the like - no matter what the cost.

They are driving hard for maximum political advantage
with no thought of anyone else. They are just a
bunch of angry old white men and their hangers on
lashing out in impotent frustrated anger at an America
that no longer shares their demographic. Eventually
they will have to give in and this will add to
their collective humiliation.

Its a disgrace. The health care law should be passed.
It improves greatly the health care industry.
Providing better preventive care, women's health
services, better care for senior and expanded coverage
for its nation's poorest. It also prevents insurance
companies from dropping you when you are sick.

A society is judged by the way it treats its most
vulnerable. And these men should stop behaving like
spoiled brats.

Foxy my sweet, what do you think Obama has been doing handing out billions of tax payer dollars to all his mates in the solar, wind & battery industries.

Even worse most of the companies are now bankrupt, having been bleed by their smarty owners. They never had a chance before shale oil came along to reduce the crazy costs Obama & his Environmental Protection Agency had been adding to US costs.

But don't worry, they have some new even more stupid plans to send the country broke.

Dear Hasbeen,

I can see that we're not going to see
eye-to-eye on this issue.

Hasbeen,

"Foxy my sweet, what do you think Obama has been doing handing out billions of tax payer dollars to all his mates in the solar, wind & battery industries."

More bunkum.

Here's where the big bucks goes.

http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/

"In the United States, credible estimates of annual fossil fuel subsidies range from $14 billion to $52 billion annually, while even efforts to remove small portions of those subsidies have been defeated in Congress...."

Hasbeen,

It appears (from a link earlier on this thread) that, in the November 2010 US congressional elections, almost as many Americans voted for the Democrats as for Republicans, but gerrymandering produced a 'skewed' outcome, and a Republican majority. And, this election was AFTER Obamacare had already been passed into law in March 2010.
That election was not 'democratic' in its results - but the vote bespoke substantial ongoing support for President Obama, and for Obamacare.

After G.W.Bush, the election of Barack Obama was a breath of fresh air hailed almost universally, both 'at home' and around the world. It was, and remains, the 'right' move - backed up by his re-election last year.

Instead of blaming Obama for America's debt situation, have you considered the legacy left by GW? Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - with massive accumulated and ongoing funding demands almost beyond comprehension. And the GFC right at the start of Obama's first term - again a crisis largely brought about by changes to banking/financial regulations (and with legislated tax cuts for the rich) introduced during the GW Republican presidency! Debt, DEBT!

Obama has in my view performed near miracles, including the passage of Obamacare, in extraordinary circumstances beyond any his own making. He has battled a hostile Congress almost from the very beginning, and has prevailed.
Give credit where due; and blame fairly, where due.

The Republicans held a gun to Obama's head in the earlier 'fiscal cliff' issue over the debt ceiling, and are now trying to do the same again - with Obama and Obamacare both in their myopic/dysfunctional sights. This paints them not as patriots but rather as power-crazed and money-hungry pirates!

Obama has kept America from deep ongoing recession, held debt in check (and from accounts actually reduced it), and overseen a rise in hope, industry, jobs, and a return to prosperity.
The Republicans of course are naturally furious. How dare he!
They LOST the 2012 Presidential election, and appear bent on taking revenge. (Lousy losers - not Conservatives, but rather unconscionable 'spoilers'.)

Credit where due?

It is clear, some of us just do not understand the issue.
Even more frightening, some do not understand the implications.
Hasbeens rejection of loans/gifts/support to clean energy ignores this.
We for the very same reasons, under both forms of government, prop up the car building industry and always have, jobs.
Clean energy comes with the promise of new jobs, and brand new wealth if America becomes a leader here.
I hazard this truth, unpopular as it is ,if America defaults, and if that default turns to an American recession, its impact is beyond our understanding.
A world wide depression is possible.
And ,already, the Republican Party is the first victim of this spite filled shut down.
They had nothing to gain from this blackmail, and in truth from deep within that Partys heart and sole a rejection of the Tea Party is brewing.

Belly old mate that clean energy is a nice slogan, but you of all people should understand, that like most things green, is another con job.

The only useful alternate energy is hydro, & the greenies hate that. They even organized a con job to waste much of what we had in the Snowy system.

Europe is running away from subsidized alternate energy just as quickly as they can, & it is only shale gas that has saved so many in the USA from energy poverty.

Wind farm approvals in the UK are being reversed by the courts all over the country, which will at least keep some fool electricity prices increases down, & reduce the galloping energy poverty there.

I'm sure Abbott will have enough sense to ease away from our fool alternate energy commitments, he is too smart to have believed it, & will be aware that we, as with the rest of the world, just can't afford it, & don't want it.

Gday Hasbeen, as strange as you may find it my written words are my true thoughts.
And in this matter I am quite sure more agree than not, clean energy is the preferred future for us all.
Even hard as you may find it, it is the future.
I rather think we all, owe much of our distrust of all things green, to the party of that name, and plainly silly actions like the protest against Russian oil drillers.
We have got in to the habit of seeing every such movement/suggested path, as madness, but we must learn to discriminate.
It is a side issue to this thread, part of it but only a branch.
Tea Party, only a part but currently controlling the Republicans, is not including it, as a reason for the lock own.
Soon I see big questions for the Republicans as a whole, next years mid term election needs radical reform from them, or punishment for todays actions will surely come.
We may well see, even by this time next week, the very real impacts, and the unknown consequences frighten far more world wide.
Out come? I think Tea Party will not blink, but true Republicans will.

What about both 'sides' as you see it using some their claimed skills in diplomacy and sitting down to talk?

Just taking President Obama by way of example, is he is to have any credibility in resolving disputes abroad, what about doing something at home?

If a rump of citizens believe there is fiscal irresponsibility and overspending by government, what about surfacing their allegations and fears and discussing their examples? That is the democratic way, yes? Maybe if Obama can prove better returns for taxpayers' money and hopefully savings elsewhere, he would have hope of progress.

I am not familiar with this subject, but was intrigued by the post of OUG on page 2. Especially the first two sentences, see below.

suzie..compulsory insurance dont make sick
people better..if they cant pay..the top-up

3 trillion..plus..to..enforce a product..
the poor cant afford to use
its abuse

Would any posters like to comment on what OUG said? Is he correct that it will not help the poor?

Dear Belly,

Obamacare would force American citizens to purchase something (health-insurance) even if they don't want it, even those who as a matter of principle will never use that 'service'.

That is wrong - and good on the tea party for doing whatever they can to prevent it.

Note that I am not opposed to the state financially helping poor people who WANT to receive medical services but cannot afford to pay for them: but those who are not interested in the service as well as those who can pay for it themselves, should not be included.

Disturbingly, we already have such a system in Australia. Medicare is perpetuated by the powerful AMA Mafia/cartel, designed to provide unfair advantage to its members and their specific discipline. Even the Australian government is held as their hostage.

All the tax-funded Medicare money goes to 'medical doctors' and the hospitals and laboratories that are under their control. Even within the medical profession, only those who are registered and comply with the AMA's internal regulations are eligible to benefit from this enormous budget.

Alternative forms of medicine are thus severely discriminated against. You may believe in whatever system of medicine you like and accordingly receive the treatment of your choice for your ailments. Suppose you believe that witch-doctors are all fraud and of no benefit - fine, so just don't use their services. Yet what about your neighbour who believes the same about conventional medicine? or even who wishes to see a medical-doctor who does not comply with AMA's regulations? Assuming you both have the same financial situation, why should one of you be paid from my tax-payer's purse and the other not?

I have no objections if you take whatever tax you need to help the poor with their health, the way they want, including with their toothaches and disabilities.

Yet Medicare should be made optional! Australians should be able to opt out of it!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-shutdowns-losers-and-not-quite-losers/2013/10/06/7c6b0828-2e93-11e3-9ccc-2252bdb14df5_story.html
This link is at least informative.
It while showing clearly more Americans blame Republicans than Democrats has its own bias.
But I recommend a read, for those looking for insights to the whole thing.
It is my opinion, based on reading American points of view, Republicans are in true danger from this matter.
And looking for a win, to cover up its basic problem, its inability to attract the African American and Latino vote, without them it can not win elections.
Note however even in this link acknowledgment, that the whole thing boarders on madness can be found.

Banjo OUG was simplistic in his stated view in my opinion.
Let us all be aware why that insurance is needed, and in doing so rebut that claim, it is wrong.
If a child or parent is dieing in some states, and not insured they will not be treated.
One of our women got to the very heart of this issue.
Reminding us of the *great wealth* medicine and health practitioners get in America.
In fact health is just that, a money making industry.
Remember, we Australians must understand, Republicans are looking for one thing, the death of Obarma care.
That is in my view near evil, if we had to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars or see our sick not treated we would understand the greatness in Obarma care and its wonderful reforms much needed.
If any Nation forgets sections of humanity for financial reasons it can not claim it has a God.
For those non-believer like me substitute God for heart and humanity.

Hi Belly,

Coming off the back of a huge electoral defeat for the ALP/Green ideology, I have to wonder why you are re-running your loss through US politics? It must be painful to go through it all again.

If we were to replace Obama with Rudd/Gillard, Obamacare for NDIS/NBN, add the debt ceiling, deficit, failure to deliver and overspending, you could replay your last defeat all over again. Has anything new come up?

Then take a look at the tired and failed ALP/Green responses to identical policies on this thread and the “action replay” is complete.

There is something to be said about the sort of madness evidenced by repeating failures in the hope of a different outcome.

It is to be hoped that the US electorate is listening and that your failed ideology will produce a similar result for Americans.

Hi Poirot,

Hasbeen said,

"Foxy my sweet, what do you think Obama has been doing handing out billions of tax payer dollars to all his mates in the solar, wind & battery industries."

To which you replied <<More bunkum>>. Really?

“RENIXX is the key international stock market index for renewables and tracks the worlds top 30 largest renewable energy companies based in the USA, EU and China. This market is down 90 percent since 2007. (Sources; The Australian and NZ Climate Science Foundation)

In the USA alone eight of their largest subsidized renewable energy manufacturers have filed for bankruptcy between 2007 and 2012. Beacon Power Corp, Ener1, Evergreen Solar, Solyndra, SpectraWatt, Babcock and Brown, Mountain Plaza Inc and Solar Millennium. The cost to the US taxpayer is U$ 3.9 Billion.

A further six subsidized green energy companies are in default or in decline at a cost to the US taxpayer of U$ 6 Billion. The wind industry in the USA, the largest in the world, is predicted to lose 70 to 90 percent of its orders. Investors predict its total demise.

As at March 28 2013, “CHINA'S Suntech reached its zenith as the world's largest solar panel producer, but has plunged to the nadir of bankruptcy in just a year, highlighting the woes of the industry it shaped”. (Sources; the Global Warming Policy Foundation and The Australian)

As at November 2013, Siemens Solar in Germany announced the collapse of this company with losses of 1.0 Bn Euros. (source GWPF)

I guess Hasbeen was correct on Obama’s Green investments? which leaves only you talking bunkum

Frankly, I do not understand why the US Republicans have an objection
to people taking out health insurance.
It just seems common sense to me.
Are there implications of which I am unaware ?

Hasbeen & Belly;
One way or another we are going to need alternative energy sources.
We will be OK for electricity for a long time, provided we do not
sell it all to China, but transport is another kettle of fish.

The rising ratio of unconventional oil to conventional oils has put
pressure on transport costs and the only alternative readily available
is natural gas. If we migrate our transport fleet (cars & trucks) to
NG we will just have to reduce the planned export quantities.

There is a security factor in this also as we soon will be importing
100% of our petrol & diesel. To have a significant proportion of our
fleet running on NG will be insurance against having to compete for
expensive short supplies in the event of war in the gulf or just plain old production decline.

"Europe is running away from subsidized alternate energy just as quickly as they can, & it is only shale gas that has saved so many in the USA from energy poverty."

Odd?

"Germany Has Built Clean Energy Economy That U.S. Rejected 30 Years Ago"

"Twenty-five percent of Germany's electricity now comes from solar, wind and biomass. A third of the world's installed solar capacity is found in Germany, a nation that gets roughly the same amount of sunlight as Alaska. A whopping 65 percent of the country's total renewable power capacity is now owned by individuals, cooperatives and communities, leaving Germany's once all-powerful utilities with just a sliver (6.5 percent) of this burgeoning sector."

"The Reichstag, the home of Germany's parliament, is a perfect microcosm of the Energiewende I saw from the train. Revolutionary in its architecture and use of energy, the building is at once beautiful and functional"

http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20121113/germany-energiewende-clean-energy-economy-renewables-solar-wind-biomass-nuclear-renewable-energy-transformation

Of course, these types of developments require innovation and vision.

Something you won't find too much of on OLO.....

if insurance..really worked..the insurance..would cover ALL..of it*

[the only way..it does 'work'..if you can..
*force those..NOT NEEDING IT..into buying it..

[ie the fit/young and healthy]..BUY..it..or get punished..[so how many..are only 'buying it..to avoid being punished?

the yanki thing is nothinmg like medicare
[more like medi-[bank][private]..

thing is..if it costs 100..and you need to find.;.only ten..dollars or so..thats ok..but no..its thousands..[and is..the highest cause of bankruptcy]..

and then they must do..so many unneeded..or puerile tests..so they dont get sued etc..then the tests pick-up..an occasional wrong dia-gnosis.and they claim to have fix a problem..that never existent..and not fully covered by that gmo

then..adverse reaction/to..prescribed drugs
or affordability..of what mostly is..placebo

see..that insurance..has risks..and some..absurd risks..have been assumed..[undrer=written]..in the collateralized/securities..let alone..the other quick-fix..of underwriting..junk bonds..as triple AAAplus..etc

havnt you noticed..all the adverts..to buy this..or that insurance
as they squeeze..the last life blood/drops from..our purse..as well as our govt/purse[bailout..the rich..not next time..

next time..nationalize the asset..not the debt

that found-money[insurance]....is like a payday..
that is..all gone..when we finally collapse..

the massive fraud's..under..their own lies..take the 3 trillion..we supposedly got..in super..paid under compulsion..where will that be safe..when..the stockmarket..falls..when the free/cash flow stops

but..the longer it flows..the worse it gets
think..we pay..[though your not told it]..15 dollars each..on-top of your rego..[to insure..the uninsured vehicles..on our roads

so..how come you/who do..the right/thing..MUST* pay hundreds..for the same?

whether you ever claim on it or not...whether your good..or the worst driver./.whether you use your car once a year..or drive it non stop..

[so TECHNICALLY..there is..no such thing..as an uninsured vehicle..ever..yet they fine..those too poor to pay..1200 bucks

[one cure for you..is crime against..me/extortion..on me..]

your drinking..YOUR over eating
your way of life..MADE you sick.,.

yet i..ave to pay..for your bad..
too bad..or criminal colluded capitalist treason..are the defenders of it..only paid-lobby..or just plain blind?

you cant..force people to do commerce
unless you..high-jacked govts reason ..for exsistance..

ie..for protecting..its people..
facilitate compulsion..upon..us not interested..in subsidization..of capitalist gain,..FOR*big business..built on..individual pain

as yu/said..better would be to spend
money on doing health..not business

Dear Bazz,

<<Frankly, I do not understand why the US Republicans have an objection
to people taking out health insurance.
It just seems common sense to me.
Are there implications of which I am unaware ?>>

One implication is that people are forced to purchase a product which they are not interested in. Some people would, on principle either:
1) Not agree to receive medical treatment, preferring to die naturally of their illness if and when it comes.
2) Not agree to be treated by Western/conventional medicine, using alternative therapies instead.
3) Want to pay their own medical bills, as a way to hold themselves responsible for their own health.

Another implication is that doctors will be able to charge more because their income would now be assured by legislation, hence health costs would soar for everyone.

Another implication is that those who regularly donate to charities that provide medicine for the poor will no longer be able to express their compassion and goodwill. Some of those who use such donations to clear their conscience for past misdeeds would no longer be able to relieve their conscience this way.

Another implication is increase in red-tape and bureaucracy for handling the system, including wasting more of the doctor's time on administrative tasks.

Another implication is making health-funds richer and more people fed for doing desk-work. People of middle-income and higher are better off 'insuring' themselves by keeping money aside for a rainy day.

Another implication is loosening family ties and bonds, since the traditional extended family cares for its members, essentially providing an informal form of medical insurance.

Another implication is that people are less encouraged to take good care of their health. When people know that being ill would hurt their pockets as well, they are more likely to lead a healthier lifestyle.

This is an obvious case of government, in the roll of a Nanny, telling people that it "knows" what's best for them better than themselves.

The house, [the republicans], voted the money to run the government, just no money for Obama care. It is the fool Obama who got his knickers in a knot, & decided to pull the government spending, not the house. Didn't they tell you folk that in those lefty propaganda sheets you all read.

Bazz of course we will need a new energy source some time, [how about methane clathrate in the long term], but we don't need any of the current mix of alternates, now or ever. They are a total loss technologically, & will never be useful on a large scale. Rhrosty's algae farms may be a hope, particularly if CO2 does bring on an ice age, but is a long way away, as is peak oil actually. Either are pricey, but we'll manage.

I agree we should be roaring into gas, not selling it at a dollar a cubic meter as we now do. It is the gas from fracking that is the only prop holding the US industry up right now, [despite Obama's interference], & we should be profiting from our gas. Unfortunately our labour costs now make that impossible. I guess we'll have to have another "recession we had to have", before we can get back on track.

Yes it should be running our road transport, & would have been if not for huge government taxes on it. While we have government expected to pay for everything for everyone, I can't see much else but down for Oz. I wonder how our welfare society will react to the Chinese take over, which must result. If I'm still here, it will be fun to watch.

If some of our ladies would get their noses out of those fool lefty propaganda rags, they just might have some ideas of what is going on in Europe. Of course they wont, & the crunch will come as yet another surprise for them.

Hang on girls, It's going to be a wild ride. I hope you enjoy rollercoasters, & yes we will shout "We told you so".

Dear Hasbeen,

<<I wonder how our welfare society will react to the Chinese take over, which must result. If I'm still here, it will be fun to watch.>>

Not if Australia has nukes, biological weapons and the means to deliver them anywhere in Asia. Why can't we learn from Israel?
China should know very well that any Chinese boots on Australian soil automatically imply Beijing on fire and the rest of China dying of pox, then there will be no invasion (...but poor old Hasbeen will have no fun).

Moreover, having our own nukes would mean that we no longer have to be dependent on the USA and subject to their whims.

Dear Hasbeen,

You really need to broaden your own reading
and possibly with that will come - your outlook.
Afterall, you are entitled to an informed opinion and
the facts, and not simply just what passes down
the colon of the MSM.

Give it a try.

Yuytsu said;
doctors will be able to charge more because their income would now be assured by legislation,

Your reasoning is inverted.
They would not have to charge more to cover the losses !
Their current high charges are covering those who default payment.
Mrs Clinton once had suggested the US should look at copying our
medical system. Nothing came of it as it was considered too socalist.

The Americans have become rather insane on subjects such as this.

Foxy sweetie, I have not read a newspaper for years. I buy the Saturday Gold Coast Bulletin once every few weeks to wrap the scraps. I buy it because it is the thickest, but I never read a single word of it. I'd have to go to the computer to find my glasses to be able to.

I do occasionally watch the Queensland University of Technology student produced news, on the local community access TV station, as although often naive & somewhat lefty in perspective, it is reasonably honest.

I did by accident, catch a commercial station late night news the other night, after the motorsport, & thought it somewhat less mature than the kids from the uni. produce.

As you would understand, the activism contained in everything the ABC does, forced me to stop watching any of their stuff quite a while back.

So sorry sweetie, mine comes from the net.

Dear Bazz,

Only the most poor cannot pay their medical bills (and even then, their outstanding bills wouldn't be extremely high in America because they would have been kicked out of hospital sooner than later) - everyone else would first have to part with their cash, home and car and even with their pants in order to pay their bill.

I am not convinced that those outstanding payments are significant in amount, but even then, while I do not object to the state paying the medical bills of the poor, why also impose medical insurance on those who are not poor, who have their own money to pay their medical bills with and on those who do not want to be treated by doctors in the first place?

Regardless of the significance of this price-down factor, which I think is minor, the increased demand for medical doctors would be a major factor in pushing prices up, because many who otherwise would not have turned to doctors, or not as often, or would have turned to alternative medicine instead, or who would take better care of their health, would now see the doctors more because it's seemingly free.

Another factor contributing to increased medical costs is the extra costs of administration, including the reduced time doctors have to actually do medicine rather than accounting.

obamacare-cost-calculator-site-
whether-you-make-2k-6k-9k-20k-or-60k
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/why-is-no-one-talking-about-us-poverty/76397/

its the same-price
3159-per year
or 263-mth/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/obamacare-cost-calculator-site-whether-you-make-2k-6k-9k-20k-or-60k-same-price-3159-yr263-mth/

http://investmentwatchblog.com/winwin-for-the-gop-remove-all-exemptions-exceptions-and-waivers-to-obamacare/

Money Talks, Obamacare Walks:
Some Doctors to Accept Cash Only
By: AltMediaDaily
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/money-talks-obamacare-walks-some-doctors-to-accept-cash-only_102013

If you can’t afford “Affordable Care” and do not have employer-provided health insurance, what are your options when you need to see a doctor?

The answer may be to find a physician who offers “concierge” or direct care (also referred to as membership medicine, cash-only practice, direct practice, or boutique medicine).

Doctors who use this business model charge patients a monthly or annual membership fee or retainer for unlimited office access (usually including 24-hour email and/or telephone accessibility), and bill patients for tests and supplies that are used.

This business model is a win-win for doctors and patients – both parties avoid having to deal with insurance companies and the associated high costs, paperwork, and red tape.

uk/debt..bomb
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/06/stella-creasy-on-toxicity-payday-lending

After reading the following accounts
which have transpired in the past few days,

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/10/america-is-rapidly-approaching-its-date.html
it will become clear to the reader that we are moving into times of unprecedented change. These changes are promising and exciting, yet are very frightening.
http://12160.info/page/park-ranger-admits-being-told-to-make-life-as-difficult-for-peopl

you will work..for..free..no you wont
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/fox-business-host-slams-federal-employees-working-for-free-i-want-to-punish-these-people-2/76539/

http://sultanknish.blogspot.ca/2013/10/government-shuts-down-nation-descends.html

the poverty gap theory
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html
http://investmentwatchblog.com/total-economic-collapse-bye-bye-miss-american-pie/

The point is this:
http://www.theorganicprepper.ca/bring-it-on-i-will-not-comply-with-obamacare-10062013

I am an American, and as such, I refuse to be forced to purchase anything else. I have already been forced to have car insurance, forced to purchase annually the "privilege" of driving via a license and having a (paid-for) car on the road via a license plate, and forced to pay taxes on my income and every purchase that I make.

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/10/search-engine-manipulation-google-and.html

http://12160.info/video/keiser-report-working-class-debt-slaves-e506

hard-working Nubian goats were sent home because of concerns about their place of employment being closed by the feds. The goats were hired to take care of a poison ivy infestation in New Jersey’s Gateway National Recreation Are
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/shutown-drama-goats-are-furloughed-the-ocean-is-closed-and-jackbooted-thugs-grimly-deter-tourists_102013

whats up doc?
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/pentagon-to-recall-furlough-workers/76420/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/shutdown-ending-this-weekend-for-400000-department-of-defense-workers/

why?[redflag..a blackflag..7choices
http://investmentwatchblog.com/breaking-obama-publishes-7-imminent-national-threats-on-oct-4/

http://12160.info/page/shutdown-drama-puts-national-park-service-in-crossfire

Spindoc let us just pretend we admire each other.
Well in part we both have said we understand the others point of view.
I am fully aware of my party,s great big hole we live in, we dug it.
But my views are not those of a conservative, in any part of the world.
You will have read about 12 months ago the investigation in to how my side and yours think.
Your mob fear the innocuous, mine are more adventurous.
So my thoughts and fears on America, shared by most, are not a hiding spot.
EVERY DAY, I plow on pushing pulling my party towards its reform and rightful place.
And we have made quite a big start, new members in my branch, active there again, now number 11, more to come.
Let us not wander this subject is dangerous, to us all.
It is brewing up to threaten even little Tony,s first term,a GFC of true huge proportions is a possibility, anything is.
I do not drink Tea Coffee black and strong is my tipple.
Is you taunting post in defense of that weird mob of rednecks?
You can do better than that read the link.

The health system is being overburdened by the very stupid and irresponsible.

"Drug abuse costs the United States economy hundreds of billions of dollars in increased health care costs, crime, and lost productivity.

The total costs of drug abuse and addiction due to use of tobacco, alcohol and illegal drugs are estimated at $524 billion a year. Illicit drug use alone accounts for $181 billion in health care, productivity loss, crime, incarceration and drug enforcement."

http://tinyurl.com/illegal-drug-costs

Why should the US taxpayers accept the policy and medical treatment goals of Australia's medical system, of a return to optimal health and well-being, physical and emotional, of a methamphetamine addict who burgles homes to support his habit? Or the drugs for the selfish thrill-seeking gay who 'rides bareback' despite the huge publicity given to encouraging him to at least wear a condom while mounting his unknown lovers.

A return to optimal health and welling is an impossible goal in such cases anyway, requiring medical specialists and hospitals to undertake heroic, expensive treatment for patients who if it is successful, will return to the risky choices and habits that landed them in hospital in the first place. It should be replaced with a more reasonable, realistic and achievable policy of allowing Nature to take its course and providing comfort from pain. It is interesting that while the Left are all for euthanasia for senior citizens they are opposed to allowing the terminally stupid and irresponsible to shorten their lives.

Rather than grasp the nettle, what Australian governments do instead is force their decisions onto hapless hospital administrators by providing insufficient funding for the politicians' easy promises and the ambulances are ramped outside emergency departments.

west ozzz too
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/western-australian-credit-downgrade-signals-greater-austerity-2/76263/

JIM WILLIE: US T-BOND MARKET:
THE GREATEST ASSET BUBBLE IN HUMAN HISTORY NEARS THE CLIFF
http://12160.info/page/jim-willie-us-t-bond-market-the-greatest-asset-bubble-in-human-hi

FEDS TRY TO CLOSE THE OCEAN BECAUSE OF SHUTDOWN
http://12160.info/page/feds-try-to-close-the-ocean-because-of-shutdown

Just before the weekend, the National Park Service informed charter boat captains in Florida that the Florida Bay was "closed" due to the shutdown.
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/peter-schiff-warns-of-martial-law/76349/

http://investmentwatchblog.com/the-2013-stock-market-an-exact-repeat-of-1954/

http://investmentwatchblog.com/puerto-rico-on-verge-of-default-u-s-municipal-funds-heavily-invested-over-there-moodys-downgrades-puerto-rico/

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/10/why-do-they-keep-calling-it-obamacare.html
http://12160.info/page/kentucky-obamacare-marketplace-warning-no-explicit-or-implicit-ex
http://21stcenturywire.com/2013/10/05/british-company-under-investigation-for-fraud-hired-to-oversee-obamacare/
the killing machine
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/10/the-government-knows-its-medical.html
http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/the-government-knows-its-a-medical-killing-machine/

The United States is the only modern industrialised
nation in the world that doesn't have some form of
national health insurance. Its health care system
has evolved, over decades, from a virtual cottage
industry dominated by family doctors and nonprofit
hospitals into a huge "medical industrial ciomplex."
A vast, rambling system in which medical goods and
services are sold for profit in much the same way
as furniture or auto repairs.

With few exceptions physicians set the charges for their
work and collect payment - either from the patient
or, more often, from a third party such as employers'
health plans, government progams such as Medicaid,
or private insurers such as Blue Cross and Blue Shield,
to name two. Most older, city-center hospitals are still
non-profit (though not free), but newer facilities are
increasingly located in suburbs and run for profit, often
by large corporate chains.

Some hospital corporations are larger than the entire medical
systems of other countries.

The main disadvantage of the American system is that it
delivers health unequally, for the best facilities are
unavailable to many people, particularly the tens of
millions who can't afford adequate insurance coverage
but are not poor enough to receive public assistance.

This system has produced the world's richest doctors.

Most American would undoubtedly prefer a national
health-insurance system - Yet, largely as a result of
opposition from the Medical Association all such
proposals in the past have been defeated by Congress
for a period of many decades. The AMA is a powerful lobby
group in Washington, giving money to Senators
and Representatives. It describes any health-insurance
proposal as "socialised medicine," a phrase that suggests
socialism, which has a negative connotation for most
Americans. The fact is of course that Americans already
have - socialised police forces, socialised fire-fighting,
socialised elementary and secondary education, and so on.
You don't have to go out and hire a police officer if
you're robbed.

The question with what's currently happening in the US with
Obamacare - is whether medicine too, should be a social
service, or whether it should remain primarily a
commercial enterprise.

Foxy it is only a matter of time before our welfare system, & our free medical system will send us broke. We just can't afford to give James Packer medical treatment to everyone.

I personally can't see much wrong with a medium level of universal healthcare, with more expensive special treatment available for a fee. There surely should be some advantage to being successful in your career. I just hope we can still manage to afford the medium level of service folks like you & I have needed.

I saw figures for the wonderful Obama care system yesterday. For a healthy 22 year old male student, part time employed, earning just over $12000 per annum, the figures are a bit shocking.

His current medical insurance is $48 per month. When he went to sign up for Obama care the price is $198 per month. An increase of $1800 a year for a low income earner, is a bit much don't you think? That is over 10% of his gross income.

It looks like Obama care is not for the low income earner as promoted, if it doesn't help this student, but actually rips him off, to pay for the bludgers, who Obama is trying to buy.

Sounds very familiar to Oz in so many ways.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/10361288/Markets-fall-as-US-shutdown-enters-second-week.html
Some have said they do not fully understand just what this is all about.
Others by their words show they do not.
Another group still seem unable to grasp just how little Americas pre Obarma care health system gives to sick people.
I see many telling us our system will become like Americas, but know, without doubt, both sides of politics would never stand for it.
And as Foxy has said, western world has varying degrees of health support much better than Americas.
Yes waste exists in all those systems.
And in time we will be forced to confront that waste.
The link like the previous one, offers insight from another country,s news papers.
Those reading it will learn much more than just wrongly, comparing Americas current system with ours.
We have the freedom to think as we wish, but a truth can only be ignored at the risk of not seeing the possible implications to us and the world.
That truth is Americas debt is huge, and lifting the debt ceiling has been used since 1917, it alone has not reduced debt.
It however has, time and again, stopped that country defaulting maybe this time and these actions will bring us to a cliff we just may fall over.

belly..on abc they showed a chart..last night
that showed the deebt ceiling..shooting up from 6 trillion[in 2002]
toover 18 trillion..in 2013..thats 3 fold increase..injust 11 vyears

now old mate..think..where did that cash go?
to bailouts..of the rich[who funny enough got a trillion tax reduction..in2002]..recall jonny howard gave our elites their tax reduction..much the same time

see belly..911..was only to do many things
first was excuse for bush family..to get iraq..oil[plus lay pipelines to ship it out[but also all the enron evidence was in building 7..and the huge vault..of gold heisted.not ever recovered..

[the gold simply disappeared..but gold melts..not evaporates..
[alsocyclone saandy..some how managed the same gold dissaopearance..yet again..sadam/insane had gold reserves..wanted to sell oil for gold..ditto gadaffee..had gold....and none of that gold was 'found';..[officially]

thus was stolen.,.and the buildings blown up..to get rid of the enron proof stored there plus a reason..to kill..gret rich and go to war

the rich were bought off with a tax cut
and the bailouts go on..no

the higher ceiling..is only to bailout the rich

any further..we will owe ten fold true asset value..[and they dont even reveal the real truth..nor jail anyone..just give endless cash..to the same moneyed/elites..

when for a fraction.,.of that cost.,.
we could have payed off..in full the original mortgaged debts

or better nationalized the asset..and recovered the debt,...via normal channels..but there is one law for the rich..[protection..one law for the poor][send us back into peon hood

Dear Hasbeen,

I also believe that people who are able to, should
have some sort of medical insurance. I've always
had medical insurance ever since I started working.
I've paid for ambulance cover and medical. However,
I also believe that there should be some sort of
national cover - like we have in Medicare that looks
after the elderly and those who are the most vulnerable
in our society. I feel that this is what a caring society
should do. We know that in the US the Democrats are the party
more likely to favour the underdog, and the Republicans as the
party more closely tied to business interests.
And for most of the past century, since Franklin D. Roosevelt
promised in 1932 that his party would help the nation out of
the Great Depression, majority of the American people have
preferred the Democrats.

Dear Foxy,

What do you mean by "SHOULD" in <<I also believe that people who are able to, should have some sort of medical insurance.>>?

Does it mean that even Gina Rinehart must take a medical insurance despite the fact that she would prefer using her private jet to get private treatment in the world's best hospitals, probably over in America, Singapore or Israel?

Or is your intention to demand insurance-premiums even from those who vowed (perhaps on religious or ethical grounds) never to see a [conventional] doctor? then arrest them for conscientiously refusing to do so?

Note that I am not arguing against "some sort of national cover... that looks after the elderly and those who are the most vulnerable in our society" (provided those elderly and vulnerable indeed want that service). Forcing people to take a medical insurance is a completely different matter and has nothing to do with helping the neediest - yet that's also part of the proposed Obamacare.

Please explain.

Foxy I think there is quite a bit of past tense in what you are seeing.

From what I can see Obama is definitely not governing for the less well off American. He is actually attacking the worker, particularly the blue collar worker right where he lives, in his job.

I neither know nor care if he is a fool, an ideology, or simply a crony capitalist, but he is destroying much of US industrial base, & paying off his wealthy backers handsomely. He is running up a huge debt, probably to cover the failing economy. As I said earlier, with out fracking, & the industry it is supporting, along with the cheap power it provides, the US would be in so deep, it may not be able to climb out.

His EPA is attacking every viable industry in such a way, that it would be easy to see a conspiracy to weaken the US with industry destruction, & debt. Just like here, I think it is merely stupidity in the leaders, rather than anything designed, but it is changing forever the US ability to produce, & provide for it's citizens.

Sure it's "nice" to support everyone, eve the worthless, however if you prevent anyone generating wealth, there is nothing left to hand out at the bottom, & no one gains.

it seems convenience..that ignores manyof our dis-ease..is called by industrial pollutions..of many sorts..plus bad food and other INDUSTRY causes..[technically..its poor govt that allowed this..

thus all medical..cost..should fall
due on govt,..who needs get it..from the cooperation's causing the sic*

ie taxing via transaction tax..[huge amounts of money moved for near nothing..but withdraw from your own bank..we get transaction charges..of dollars..for a small transaction

yet those transferring BILLIONS..get it near cost free
[its offficially malfeasance..bordering on treason..thus..all non-living beings/entities trusts and corporations//must pay their tax..both ways

[wage isnt income..and dead cooperation
can NOT..'earn' wage..[only they should pay..for ALL gross income.

but by lie that it is all put upon..the l;iving person..by trick..
sees the dead capitalist..cooperation..[pertsona]..kill the living..poisoning our kids..making us sick..why?

cause govt does treason
lest we forget..both obama and clinton..
both worked for busche..and co..its the same few..giving aid and comforts to..too few...

caring for our poort..is long overdue

the rich..must be made to repay..their fruits..of their own evil..instead..it just seeks other ways to steal..our last asset..[life]

i hear our body bits.are worth plenty[20,00 per kidney..50,000your liver..your bones..your tendons..your eyes..its all..for sale..for the right price..but by the wrong reason

for profit..

Dear Yuyutsu,

We're not talking about the Gina Rhinehearts here
or about forcing people to do anything they don't
wish to have.

I've already explained earlier that most Americans would
prefer a national health insurance system and why there
is an opposition to it from vested interests. I've also
explained the high health costs in America and the fact
that it delivers health services unequally and why.

And as I stated earlier the question is simply -
whether medicine should, be a social service (like police
forces, socialised elementary and secondary education,
socialised fire fighting, and so on), or whether it
should remain primarily a commercial enterprise.

The answer to that question will depend on the power
relations among the interests involved.

OUG you highlight another major thing the thread has if not side stepped not yet addressed.
Americas debt.
First the lock down threatens to make the day the world and America must confront that today or very soon.
Remember it can not be ignored,that debt built under both sides of politics.
So do not look for easy answers.
Do not too make the claim killing Obarma care will help reduce that debt.
Be happy that America spent borrowed money to stop the greatest depression the world ever saw instead of the GFC.
American and Europe's debt will one day hurt us all.
But are Tea Party red necks bringing that day closer?

Dear Foxy,

<<I've already explained earlier that most Americans would prefer a national health insurance system and why there is an opposition to it from vested interests.>>

There may as well be an opposition from vested [financial] interests, but as I explained, it's not the only opposition.

Earlier you mentioned that the American AMA opposes Obamacare, but I don't understand why: when more people are medically-insured, the demand for doctors' time increase, hence overall doctors receive more money. Doctors can still charge whatever they like and they won't ask for less - take it or leave it, just because the payer is different, so poor Obama, to keep his promises, would just have to keep increasing taxes to feed their endless greed. If he doesn't, then this will translate into longer queues and those who want immediate treatment will still pay a fortune for it.

<<And as I stated earlier the question is simply - whether medicine should, be a social service (like police forces, socialised elementary and secondary education, socialised fire fighting, and so on), or whether it should remain primarily a commercial enterprise.>>

Why must it be either?

Why must it be the same body that provides police forces, to also provide medicine? both can be public - but what's the one got to do with the other?

A few public functions such as policing, fire-fighting and other security functions need to be mandatory, hence carried out by a mandatory and violent body - the state.

But most public functions need not be mandatory, so why should they be carried out by the same violent body rather than by a public voluntary body?

State and commercial enterprises are not exclusively the only two options. Nothing but state-intervention prevents people from creating their own medical-support organisation(s) on a non-commercial basis.

Dear Yuyutsu,

In most industrialised societies, health care is
provided as a public service, either free of charge
or at nominal cost. In the US this is not
the case as already explained.

The British National Health
Service introduced soon after World War II, has
served as a model for many other countries. The
British system allows for private physicians, profit
making hospitals, and fee-paying patients, but in
practice almost all doctors, hospitals, and patients
participate in the public system. The physicians are
usually salaried employees of local communities,
but they may also recieve a fixed annual sum for each
of their patients. Thus, doctors who attract patients
have higher incomes than those who are less popular -
but even so, they earn less than a third of what their
American counterparts do.

Medical care of any kind - physician consultations,
diagnostic tests, hospitalisation, major surgery,
artificial limbs, and so on - is completely free.
However, patients are expected to pay a small flat fee
for any prescription, regardless of what the drug or
its actual cost may be.

One major problem of the National Health Service is that
the demand for free health care outstrips the supply,
so the system is chronically short of cash (which comes
of course from taxes), and there are sometimes long
waiting lists for non-emergency treatment. Nevertheless
the system ensures great equality of health care and
offers the British a longer life expectancy and lower
infant mortality rate than American enjoy - and it does so
at a much lower real cost, a far lower percentage, than
in the US. In the British view, health care-should be
distributed according to who needs it, not who can
afford it, as is the case in the US.

I've already explained the American system and why the
AMA is one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington.

As for Obamacare - I suggest you Google it and get the
precise details you're after. You will find out that it
greatly improves the health care industry, and provides
expanded coverage for the nation's poorest.

Dear Foxy,

I happen to know that the quality of British health-care is so notoriously poor that any Britons who can afford it go to Germany or Eastern Europe for treatment. Some even take the train there to visit the dentist. Yes, it is completely free, but also worthless.

I haven't researched the reason for the high costs of medical-health in America, but it may well be a result of corruption, or collusion between the American AMA and congressmen. What for example if the AMA uses the congress to demand such strict standards for being qualified as a doctor (or specialist) that there are too few doctors in the USA. Yes, it would be great to break the AMA's back and send both colluding parties to prison.

You know I don't care that much for America, but I took your advice and looked up 'Obamacare': all I find is horror upon horror, I don't even know where to begin as individual freedoms are trampled on left right and centre, coercion everywhere. Yes, I know that this is more or less what we have in Australia, we are just so used to it that we take for granted something that breaks every moral standard.

I repeat: financing health-care for the needy is one thing, it's part of standard welfare, what we call 'safety-net', so it is fine to have that paid out of tax-money, but imposing all the other things on everyone else, other than the needy, is a horrible crime.

In other words, Obamacare has two aspects: the one is the nice front for which Obamacare is mostly known - for who doesn't like to help the neediest in society?
However, behind this nice façade, is the ugliest oppression - and that's the aspect which most people do not see unless they bother to read and understand the details.

I have written a list of concerns on Monday, 7 October 2013 11:49:08 AM, but now I have even more.

However, I'm too sick of what I saw and too tired to continue.

Oh Foxy what are we going to do with you.

You're believing all the propaganda again. Hell both Republicans & Democrats are screaming as they start to find the real facts.

How does a single income family parents & 2 kids on $46,000 PA, who find their insurance going from $2,800 to just over $10,000. The wife said she thought everyone should have health care, she just didn't realise they were going to have to pay so much of it personally.

At a single stroke Obama has moved them from comfortable to struggling, & this is so different to what they were lead to expect.

Dear Yuyutsu and Hasbeen,

Thank You both for your patience and for presenting me
with much food for thought. That's another reason why
I keep coming back to this forum. It's always good to
listen (and hopefully learn from) others points of view.
I too am tired, so I shall leave you gentlemen to carry
on with this discussion and once again - Thanks for
sharing your opinions with me.

Surely we can ignore the view this is about the greedy poor in America.
And too the Democrats are to blame for not bending to black mail, from a section of the Republicans.
Today world financial authority's warned, us all.
If America defaults the whole world may enter a very real and very awful depression.
Americas debt has hung around its neck for decades.
Growing all the time but the GFC saw it rise massively.
A day must come that see,s the very financial system change, big time.
This event may well bring that day to us within weeks or days.
Knowing what the situation is in just one more month would be of interest.

Dear Belly,

Surely there is something more important than money:

Suppose some dark angel told you: "poison your grandmother or I will bring a very awful depression to the world", would you poison your grandmother? I trust you wouldn't!

This multi-trillion debt bubble is bound to burst some day - if not in our times than in our children's. When it does, it will surely result in a big depression, as America will be declared insolvent and its economy severed from the economy of the rest of the world.

While there is not much we can do about this future, our own actions are fully within our control, so our duty is to make sure that all that we do is morally sound. Forcing people to purchase a product or service they do not want to have, is not morally sound.

the topic..is wearing many of us..lexie
but belly..mate..its like not fixing a tooth
do you keep dulling the pain..with free rum..[largess of the state]

that sucks the life blood endlessly from..usa tax payers
giving the capitalists an interest free lunch..credit line for ever?

<<..Today world financial authority's warned,..us all.
If America defaults the whole world may enter a very real and very awful depression.>>

mate..we been TOLD..we are in..a global recession since 2002
but we keep giving ever more cash[life blood]..to sustain..the dead corpse[keep sucking the tax payers life savings/pensions..houses jobs state assets..etc etc..plundering the living to support capitalist greed?

or is it simply..the beat-up..
business as usual..via spin/fear?

<<..Americas debt..has hung around its neck for decades.>>

mate globally..BAILing out..the bankers money-market
[main streets debts]..has sent us all broke..[asset wise]

yes its growing..cause all liquidity..is going into..the banker bubble

<<..Growing all the time..but the GFC saw it rise massively.>>

yes the bailouts..when govt can simply step-in
take it over keep it growing..while its still an asset

<<..A day must come that see,s..the very financial system change, big time.>>

just give back money creation..to govt
who never should have let bankers loot the coin metal
paper money..is real debt..even if..the lie of 'fiat--money just hides the true cost.

<<..This event may well bring..that day to us within weeks or days.>>

that day..will see our life savings bailed into shares
in worthless asset stripped of real value..holding only..the debt
<<..Knowing what the situation is..in just one more month would be of interest.>>

mate..what can i say..its going to..hurt those who thought..they had it all..far more than the have-nots..who always been poor..

ohh..its..a hard reign..its going to fall...thats all
as the free lunch bunch..think..they won..it all*

Y I always find it hard work trying to understand your thoughts.
Yes there are things much more important than money.
I maybe you, could live without it.
But at least you will know surely, few could.
America and parts of the world have been living on credit.
Credit is the fuel Capitalism runs on, no better system has ever been found.
While a bunch of right wing nuts the Tea Party is behind this issue, insisting taking action against the poorest is the way to a debt free future it is not.
Pre election Republicans, driven by the TP said there was no need to raise the taxes of the very rich.
Y your habit of looking at the whole of humanity for answers, would if they considered it, be the first move toward a better America if and it is unlikely, the Tea Party was to do just that.

Dear Belly,

<<insisting taking action against the poorest is the way to a debt free future it is not.>>

You make the assumption, a wrong assumption, as if the grounds for objecting to Obamacare is unwillingness to help the poor.

This is not the case.

Obamacare has two parts, but they were packaged together:

One part is helping the poor - I have nothing against it, and even within the American republicans very few have.

The other is about messing up the lives of all Americans, poor and rich alike and everyone in between, with compulsory and heavily regulated medical insurance. It is only this part which is opposed and it has nothing to do with helping the poor with their medical expenses.

The following link is worth a read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a-federal-budget-crisis-months-in-the-planning.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

https://plus.google.com/+EyewitnessNews/posts/7AuAhGuozhV
I have a link too.
From America it gives poll results saying 62 percent of Americans blame the Republicans.
Could have posted from the same source the thought that the leader in the blackmail ring wants to destroy? his own party the Republicans.
Thanks for your link Foxy will read it now.

belly..your having as mall problem..with your link
sometimes..they put an extra s..in the http but of the address
[no idea why that happens..but here..should be the link..of yours[minus that s]
http://plus.google.com/+EyewitnessNews/posts/7AuAhGuozhV

anyhow..
ps im also having trouble..immediately after posting this post
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15136#15136

all i get..is the same error message..
but no connection..to the site what so-ever
ANY CHANCE OF SOMEONE SEEING..if the link to my post works ok for them?

[it happend only after downloading a microsoft document/file
that i posted in full..at the link..that clearly has..put some bug..into my computer...but hopefully not somehow into the site

[ps i posted just the link..not file content here..at olo..so..i better let grayham know./.to delete that post..[or edit thye link out

OUG I too had that problem and it was this morning.
I cut my posts and left the site because of it.
I have for about two weeks experienced it or similar and have not been sure it was not my desk top.
Had it checked an hour ago and it is OK.
Links do not always work.
Mine was taken from the Goggle news other news sites, USA edition, worth a look and shows how very different some of our views are from the folk most effected.
I like to sometimes read the British press and Canadian just to get a different view.

A strong chance exists that a solution, for at least a short time, is about to be found.
A few questions remain.
Was it worth the loss of trust by Americans in the Tea Party section of the Republicans.
And even more important ignoring the attempt to destroy Obarma care when and how will America begin to bring its deficit down.
I think no easy way, maybe no way exists.
And for that reason a greater world global financial concern is is likely to come.

Time for Republicans/Tea party to stop playing brinkmanship.

(Did I hear right that their approval rating is down to 28%?)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-07/a-u-s-default-seen-as-catastrophe-dwarfing-lehman-s-fall.html

"A U.S. Default Seen as Catastrophe Dwarfing Lehman’s Fall

Anyone who remembers the collapse of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. little more than five years ago knows what a global financial disaster is. A U.S. government default, just weeks away if Congress fails to raise the debt ceiling as it now threatens to do, will be an economic calamity like none the world has ever seen. "

Dear Poirot,

<<an economic calamity like none the world has ever seen.>>

The USA will collapse, becoming insolvent. It's just a question of when.

If it doesn't, then Americans will continue to be eating and drinking at the expense of the rest of the world forever, never paying their bill. There is no chance they could ever repay their astronomical debts in real commodities or services. Your grand-grand-grand-children would then still be feeding them for no return other than green notes which could not even be used as toilet-paper (because they are at best made of plastic, otherwise of electronic bits).

The wise thing to do, is to disengage from the American economy now, rather than wait for the inevitable shock-wave once the USA becomes a 3rd-world country, where it deserves to be.

Obama like Greece and the rest of Europe believe that you can keep borrowing endlessly. He might be popular now as he hands out candy but no doubt future generations will curse him.

As Belly says, "And even more important ignoring the attempt to destroy Obarma care when and how will America begin to bring its deficit down.
I think no easy way, maybe no way exists".

This is exactly why clearer minds are resisting the crazy unaffordable Obama care stupidity. Much more restraint is necessary however if the US is to even get it's head above water. Obama care, bad as it is, its just another straw on the load the US is carrying. The camels back is about to go.

I see them having to cut back their military spending quite soon. We would have to at least triple our defense spending, should this happen. Bludging on the US would no longer be an option, & without big brother we become extremely vulnerable.

In exactly the same way as in the US, the NBN as it stands the National disability insurance scheme, & the Gonski schools spending just can't be afforded here. Neither of course can the parental leave scheme, & a lot of welfare we now take for granted.

We can continue to waffle along, the pollies buying enough votes to get elected, & running up the credit card bill for a little longer, but ultimately the poor will be the ones to suffer most when we collapse.

The US & EU are likely to be dragging us down quite soon. The weaker we have become with crazy spending, the worse we will suffer. It is time to sell the supercars we can't afford, & go back to granny's Morris Minor, while we still have at least that option.

Yes, Hasbeen,

Tell us how many trillions the Republican initiated wars in the middle-east have cost their economy?

All for nothing, except death and destruction.

Y much of what you say is true.
Runner however as is his habit looks only at the surface.
So bad is Americas position borrowing more is the only answer.
A question can the worlds economy survive an American default?
I very much doubt it can.
While this thread is about the current crisis, and the reason it is taking place, Republicans are not offering answers to how America can begin to re pay their debts.
I hold the view and American default, or for that matter many in the same danger in Europe, may bring a reform to world finances we never thought would take place.
I recommend we all give some thought to what the world may look like if that different system is forced on us.

I'm afraid you may be right Belly, if only about the western world & our fellow travelers. Sure something will survive, but perhaps nothing that we will find very palatable.

Who was it that said that democracy carries the seeds of it's own destruction? As more people realise they can vote, rather than work for a living, the load becomes too heavy. Most of the west is there right now, & we keep loading on more "rights" daily, while reducing responsibilities.

It would be nice to believe we could back away from the cliff, but the crush of those behind, with their hand out will take some breaking.

It is nice to be able to agree with you about something Poirot, but you can't blame only one side of politics, it was Labor that took us & the Poms into some of those stupid unwinnable wars.

Wars are only worth fighting, if you are prepared to annihilate the other side. Killing a few of their defense force then stopping is a bad joke for everyone. Thank god Obama got his tail spanked over Syria, or we'd be another one.

People do need to understand the US defense force is to a large extent an unemployment buffer. They employ & train hundreds of thousands of people, who have no chance any other way. Perhaps having that huge force does make using it irresistible.

It would be nice if it's use could be more productive, but don't kid yourself, with out that force in existence, we become very isolated, & extremely vulnerable.

Hasbeen I think I am about to shock you.
I share your fears and reasons for them.
Too the fear we are not truly in control of our own fate.
In about a dozen threads I have tried to put my views on this subject.
But not as clearly as I wanted to.
Free loaders are in my view anti Social.
My Labor colleges must confront this, to give goods and services to both the poor and the community we must find a way to cut the waste.
Not mandatory slashes to education and health care, not pensions and welfare.
But to institutionalized wast in them all.
A true carer for the poor undermines their concern by stalling much needed reform in all those areas.
New polling this morning shows support for Republicans in this matter is 24%

In effect those numbers say next years mid term elections are going to punish that party.
In a world that has other super economy's America must see its true position and confront its need for massive change.

Surprise surprise everyone seems to be in agreement, it is a b%^&#y mess.
I have even seen suggestions that if it goes to the default that there
will be a military takeover.
Sooner or not much later those holding US Treasury bonds will panic.

About the only sensible way out would be for Obama to ask the Queen
to appoint a Governor General who could dissolve both houses and send
them to the voters.
Grin

Now where have I heard that before ?
The similarity of the situation is remarkable.
Both houses locked over money bills.
Obama is illegally looking for a Line of Credit from Goldman Sachs.
Whitlam was wanting to borrow illegally from Kemlani.

I can see no way out of their indebtedness, interest rates are very
near zero, so who would want to hold them anyway, the risk must be
great so the interest rate should be high and the only way to
resolve that is to get out while the going is good.

Once people twig to the risk that they can never be honored sell, sell, sell will be the word.

i heard many affirmations..in my mind..reading your post bazz
thing..is..

we are borrowing..ever bigger debt..
MAINLY too repay..previous debt..borrowing
its like paying..off your credit card..with a new card
then..the..next loan..repays the next*..borowing..[from the same bankers*

..[and their free lunch..scooping off the cream..that floats on top..[in the form..of nice big fat bonus..interest free credit.[for raising..the book-debt...no real money was lent..]

we borrow..our way..into bankruptcy
already..they took our private pensions..investment funds..even cash in banks..[bail-ins]..and still..no-one in charge is in jail..or stretching their neck..for treason..upon its people..

but they are so guilty-desperate..
they can only..hide the crime they..will do [more horrible things]..by doing worse..the bible says two thirds die..before we wake-up..so its only just begun

so..this is as good as it gets..we will no doudt..look..back fondly..tothese earlier days..when we could have said..

'hang-on'..'it dont compute'
you..lend..me money..so..i can launder it for you?

its like doubling up the bet..till you win
ok..so who is left with enough..cash..to pay-off?

get them..now..the 1%..is far too..vile*
heed..*greed creates need..and some..are too greedy..to listen..to anything..but their..insane inner voice..that ever says..more..more..more..i wants it all*

or they..destroy..us all
who are..the real terrorists..media cant say
but numbers dont..lie..so.who..owns what..how was it begot?

Here you go - a brilliant animated short, narrated by Ed Asner.

Wanna know what went wrong in America?

http://www.moveon.org/share/72e232/hollywood-legend-ed-asner-has-outraged-republicans?rc=share-5393dd

(I hear Republicans are outraged....good.....cheating shonks)

agovt scam
http://xrepublic.tv/node/5697

BUT..how..to get them.. to riot..in the streets
http://intellihub.com/2013/10/12/welfare-state-collapsing-govt-shutdown-glitch/

According to a Xerox spokesperson, a routine system check by the vendor resulted in system failure, leaving assistance recipients across the country with no way to buy food.
http://www.theorganicprepper.ca/72-hour-warning-grocery-stores-across-the-country-turn-away-hungry-shoppers-as-ebt-system-crashes-10122013

$30 trillion held in tax-free offshore accounts, and satirized in South Park’s Emmy Award-winning episode on our bailing out the big banks with the catchline, “And it’s gone.”
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-fed-could-simply-cancel-all-5-trillion-of-intragovernment-debt

If one understands the mechanics of canceling $2 trillion in debt, there’s equal wisdom to likewise cancel all ~$5 trillion of the debt held by Social Security and other intra-governmental holdings as simple book-keeping because we literally owe this to ourselves.

http://investmentwatchblog.com/u-s-government-debt-is-the-biggest-ponzi-scheme-in-history-a-default-on-its-debt-is-inevitable-gold-was-designed-to-safeguard-bondholders/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/tim-iacono-the-fed-is-the-culprit-for-u-s-economic-problems/

http://xrepublic.tv/node/5698

http://investmentwatchblog.com/goldman-sachs-trying-to-flush-out-gold-sellers/

Too True Poirot, it really is like there with the US banks.

However watch out here;
Early this year the IMF and the G20 governments discussed the
"Bail-In" that was tried in Cyprus.
They considered it a success and agreed that the G20 countries should
adopt that process. Wayne Swan signed up to it and legislation either
has been introduced or is yet to be introduced into our parliament.
How does the Bail-In work ?

Well when a bank gets into trouble they can use depositors funds to
pay bond holders or other creditors of the bank. These creditors can
include overseas banks from which they have borrowed.

Now if it has not already been made law then the question is will our
new government go ahead with it ?

How thick a mattress do you have ?

We Australians seem to judge this issue as not very important to us.
By and large we ignored the facts in the GFC.
We give more thought to house repayments and can we squeeze in a second car and the big screen TV without too much pain.
Yet we blame Nations for doing what we do, living on credit.
The difference is we want so much from government and refuse to consider the day must come that credit ends and we must repay.
America invented mass credit and we all live by it, keeping the machine we call capitalism running.
Loch down or not we must confront this, the world is nearing its repayment day.
And in such a time we all are just pawns in a game we do not know the out come of.

We have stalled but the Crisis has not.
I tend to think we all thought it was over just two days ago.
Yet not just Republicans blackmailing Democrats is stopping resolution.
Right wing Tea Party Republicans are blackmailing their own party.
We sit assured it will be fixed what how ever if it is not.

his biggest ERROR
was allowing his EGO..to..use..his name on..it

it thus..must/will die..and maybe evolve..
like..our medi-bank..became medi-care.when..people ab-used it..as a bank