So Bob Carr is to step down.
And based on the way the Senate works, his six year term is up for grabs.
Paul Howes has in my view done well in saying he is not looking to take it.
His remarks are quite true and, lets face it if the only talent we have is ex Union officials lets turn out the lights close the door and leave.
ALP I am thinking of.
Heaven forbid Sussex Street now in hiding in Parramatta lets us vote on who fills that position.
After all for decades they have used such seats to remove folk from other positions.
Paul you are a bright bloke but based on past practice is some one trying to tell you something?
I move party members get to see who gets to sit in the now house of silly walks.
A day may come that sees the brilliant Paul Howes as Prime Minister,that day however is post healing and hopefully after power brokers trust the rank and file enough to let us be heard not just ordered about.

Waiting for the OLO's Grrls (and the faux 'Lady') to leap on this like demented attack dogs (their record on such matters speaks for itself).

But wait a bit, where it is Labor or the Greens(shudder, shudder), there can be never be any suggestion of 'sexism' and 'misogyny'. LOL

Besides, Labor has a policy of giving away jobs on gender. So it must be a woman, right? Now if Gillard was still there she would show them how to make a captain's pick.

So much for the luckless electorate who would always want their representatives to be selected on ability and a strong record of rendering a public service.

That Bob Carr. He's a caution, isn't he.

This says it all.

"Carr secured election to the Senate on 7 September in the No 1 spot for Labor. Carr publicly promised several times to serve a full term even if Labor lost, but the widespread expectation is he will resign."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/19/howes-quits-senate-vacancy-nsw

Politics is well rid of the likes of our Bob. He presided over the demise of NSW with the most spectacular display of inactivity it is possible to envisage.

Fortunately, he was tempted out of politics (the first time) with a half-million dollar "consultancy" at Macquarie Bank, the one and only selfless service that Bank has ever done for the State of NSW.

But I notice that his resignation has not actually been offered yet. Perhaps he's waiting for Macquarie to come up with another half-million. Please, guys, help the country out, just one more time.

<< But I notice that his resignation has not actually been offered yet >>

Er….. yeayus!

So what’s all this BS about then, then??

You don’t want to jump the gun or anything eh.

Not just looking for any old excuse to have a dig at someone you consider a really bad politician, but who is actually one of the few who is properly tuned into the REAL core issues that we face, and hence should be seen as one of our truly excellent pollies, of many years’ standing!

But then, that is your style, eh Pericles!

Belly, look who has popped up, to dance on the Labor grave, me The Little Green Pixie, firstly goodbye Bob, you grub! Secondly Paul (put the Greens last) Howes wont be sitting in the Senate, well hallelujah, another grub we wont miss. May I suggest a couple of NSW Labor stalwarts who, shall we say, are at a loose end these days, Eddie (the boss) Obeid and Ian (sir lunch a lot) Macdonald. Both grubs would fill Bob's shoes admirably and be far superior choices than Howes. How about latching on to some good old Greens democracy and have the rank and file members decide, ha, that will not happen in the Labor Party. who's the best branch stacker Albo or what's his name, Mr Forgetable?
Are you a little bit put out by the fact The Greens are still there, a live and kick'n, Still with 10 in the Senate and Adam thrashed your Gal in the seat of Melbourne, interesting how you never did comment on that one. And to think you predicted the demise of The Greens, got that wrong! Hasta la vista Baby, The Greens live to fight another day.

My we do let our emotion,s get in the way of balanced comment.
In some cases frothing at the mouth is seen to be comment.
Ludwig, Howes in ending his interview with the comment Labor has trouble hiding its leak, along with the fact he even held the press conference tells open and inquiring minds a great deal.
Carr was well into his other life away from politics when called up, considered the right man to replace Rudd,maybe the only one, Gillard head hunted him.
He has every right to avoid a life sentence in the ,now kiddys sand pit/Senate.
We all should demand an end to current slanted voting system used to put some in this house.
And it would be much more than nice if my party picked a team of 4 or 6 potential replacements and then included a vote for us the member ship, to elect our view of the best.
I posted this in frustration.
Who knew before Howes interview Carr was to go.
Who too knew Howes had been offered the job.
Why are party members on both sides the last to know.
And who and why offered Howes the job.
Last is my great party to forever see ex Unionists draw box one in getting a seat in the Parliament,[box one = the rails run clear air and best chance]

Pericles I mostly find your comments more right than wrong but while my view carries no more weight than yours I saw a far better man in Carr
Carr had an intellect, had many interests he was the glue that held NSW Labor together when it started its decent.
Are you aware he gave this state, and was knifed for it, more National Parks than any one in our history.
Now to drag a man down , one that history will show great respect for, based on untrue charges/ignoring his age and right to spend his last years as he wishes? extraordinary stuff.
OTB, your comment says much about you, and nothing about this threads subject.
IF we all used threads to launch insults at people as you have what would OLO become?
Yes no need to tell me I know I can be harsh, but in rebutting comment made in a thread you blast an indignant heap of male cow by product at innocent folk not even involved in the thread at this time.
Forgive me but I learn from your rude style that you are a bitter person who respects only your views and remind you those you insult have been here for much longer than you.

Come on Belly, Carr "was the glue that held NSW Labor together" more like the axle grease that put Eddie Obeid in power. A bit of light reading for you. Its called Carr, Obeid and the Sussex Street Mob.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/09/paul-sheehan-on-bob-carr-eddie-obeid-and-the-sussex-street-system.html

Are you one of histories revisionists? Carr was up to his neck in it here in NSW as were Lemma and Keneally, the only one who made any attempt to stand up to the Sussex Street mod and Eddie Obeid was Rees and look where that got him. Thing haven't changed here in NSW under Robertson, he's got a few skeletons in the cupboard and is desperately trying to keep the door closed. Every time the ICAC comes out with a new report Labor politicians rush to have a read, for no other reason than to see if they have been named and shamed.
Fortunately there is one shining light in the politics of NSW, its called The Greens, our parliamentary members are fighting a constant battle with the O'Farrell government on behalf of the good citizens of the State. Where is the Labor rabble, nowhere to be seen, too busy infighting and trying to keep their heads down to avoid the chop.

Belly,

Some non-partisan advice:

For the life of me I don't know why anyone would see Paul Howes as Labor's great white hope. He hasn't a scintillation of charisma.

Labor's interests would best served championing someone else.

Folks,
Bob Carr hunts with the wolves and sleeps with the sheep.
He is the most derisive, cunning political pretender this country has ever produced.
For a socialist he is a great showpiece of capitalism and perhaps the finest exponent of nepotistic maleficence we have had to contend with in the political landscape of this country.
I say good riddance to bad rubbish.

Would not Ursla Stephens, the NSW labor Senator that did not make it this time, be in the running if Carr resigns.

I do not have any knowledge of how she performed during her 6 years in the place, but if she did OK then she would be a likely choice.

In other parties, the nomination is made by the state executive, so why not in the ALP. My understanding of the new Rudd voting rules only applied to the position of federal leader. The states should continue to nominate whom they wish for casual Senate vacancies.

Belly,

I will not dignify your rude remarks by responding to them.

However if as you say, you and some of your buddies have been holding forth on this site for years, you might care to explain how it is possible that you and they haven't managed to learn anything new to escape those mental ruts you occupy regardless.

Now, to return to the subject of the thread, you haven't as yet commented on Labor's 'leakers', of which there appears to be many. Are you talking about your mate Shorten et al? Or is this just another shot at making Rudd responsible as Labor's whipping boy?

Dear Belly,

I guess
we'll all know more about the direction in which
the party is going to go once the leader is elected.
Simply as an observer,
I feel that Labor should get closer to its base and map
out a strategy of opposition that allows Labor to frame critical
policies for the common good.

We can only trust that there will be genuine conversation
about policy free of the backroom manipulation that
normally accompanies the development of its platform.
Hopefully new ideas and new unities may emerge.

Although, it may take a while for this to happen -
especially if the factions continue to wield their
influence. But I guess that's the way the political game is
played in this country.

I suggest you lot leave Labor out of the picture for some time, after all they're irrelevant for time being & let the new Government focus on saving Australia. There'll be plenty of time to play hyprocitical grub before the next election.

Dear Individual,

You may not realise it but our Liberal Democracy is run
by a government and a party in opposition which holds
the government to account. If you feel so strongly about
a government being allowed to get on with governing the
country, you should have made your feelings known during the
previous government's term in office. I don't recall your
telling the last opposition to go jump, or suggest that
they were irrelevant. A bit of a double-standard on your
part here old chap.

Foxy,
What I meant was once Labor achieve something resembling relevance then by all means go & do your thing. Until this happens though they could help this pseudo democracy by acting democratic & let the majority do their job.

Dear Individual,

I'm sure that Labor will do precisely their job,
just as the Coalition did when in opposition.
Only hopefully, more positively and constructively.
And not wrecking for political gain.

Foxy Indy does not understand, most things, hence the one line verbal bashing of views other than his.
OTB thanks.
I wounder how folk form opinions about politics?
Foxy Labor not unlike Libs is going to fill this position the way it always has.
Can any one tell me of a time both sides ever let membership pick a single Senate candidate?
I again think the interesting point is who knew before Howes interview,he had been offered the seat, or that a seat was going to become vacant.
Chris Gaff, Howes, it is my view he is both brilliant and a future Labor leader.
I at least know the bloke, he not so long ago, was my boss and a respected one.
Mining for my thoughts, in my words, you could build a case both ways, I said I agree with his reasons for not standing.
I however in his words *6 years of whatever/trouble* confirm my view he should wait/serve his time.
Labor had 3 years of problems bought about in my view by power brokers in the party.
Any pretending Rudds two full years of public acclaim and highest polling did not happen points to a need to review his thinking.
Not however to forever damning him.

Pretty much everyone knew, Belly.

>>Who knew before Howes interview Carr was to go<<

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/federal-election/bob-carr-to-resign-from-senate-report/story-fnho52ip-1226715036317

And this is weak, Ludwig.

>>Not just looking for any old excuse to have a dig at someone you consider a really bad politician<<

Look at the facts.

Carr took no.1 spot on the NSW ticket having reassured the puppetmasters that he would serve the full six years. Two days after the election, word "escapes" that he will resign. Not, of course, that he would let this interfere with his taxpayer-funded junket in St Petersburg.

Taken at face value, it is not unreasonable to suggest that his stance on population control was also pure expedience.

I'm sorry if it offends you, Ludwig, but I regard Bob Carr as a prime example of what is rotten in Australian politics.

Belly,
I do not have a problem with Labor. In fact I voted for them for over 50 years. I have a real problem with Sussex Street running the show and the internal union corruption.
At least with the LNP I know their base motivation is money.

<< I'm sorry if it offends you, Ludwig, but I regard Bob Carr as a prime example of what is rotten in Australian politics. >>

It begs the question Pericles: who do you think is/was a good politician that is not an example or a person entrenched within what is rotten in Aus politics?

It might be a bit of an aside to this thread, but I’d love to know.

<< Taken at face value, it is not unreasonable to suggest that his stance on population control was also pure expedience. >>

Huh? Expedience from what? Expedience to where? I mean, no one in his political circles was interested in population control, so what did he stand to gain from espousing it?

Clearly he was expressing heart-felt views, which flew in the face of Labor doctrine, and any political doctrine for that matter, and would have won him no friends in those circles.

He expressed concern about that sort of stuff, over a period of several decades, because he knew it was the right thing to do.

Ludwig,
If I recall correctly, concern about the growing Australian population was not the reason Carr wanted to reduce the immigration levels.

As Premier of NSW he was concerned that Sydney was getting the bulk of immigrants which was causing his government housing and infrastructure problems. If he could have directed the immigrants elsewhere, that would have made him happy.

So it was expedient for Carr to advocate reducing the immigration levels.

Carr is and was and in a git. End of story

If nothing else the thread is a window on how we view politicians.
No less for my views than others.
As most know I have taken the axe to many on my side of the fence.
But consider my self a true blue Labor person.
It may pay my party to understand others think like me while making that claim.
Because you can bet on it many do think like this.
Carr was Streets ahead of Wran, yet many will say that is not true.
Wran was a thief, nearly as bad as Sir Robin Askin.
Well no need to defend my views or Carr history will do that.
Every time our Senate comes up it will bring debate and yes anger.
But in this so called place of the states representation, now just a joke.
Why are places filled but not by an election.
I thought a time had to pass after an election, or one had to beheld?

The divisions in NSW Labor are as deep as ever. Its a fact that they control the party federally and very much want Shorten to lead. Albanese as the lefts candidate is on the nose with the NSW right, the left have already taken the Senate leadership with Wong and to see them take the lower house top job with Albanese, would be too much.
As for Carr going, the right will demand that one of theirs fills the vacancy and it wont be Howes. With Dastyari already endorsed by the NSW right to replace Thistlethwaite in the Senate they want to maintain federal control and to do that they need one of theirs to replace Carr.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/nsw-right-forced-paul-howes-out-of-senate-contest-20130919-2u2oq.html

Belly after getting it so wrong about The Greens in this election, I invited you to comment, but true to form you made grandiose pre election statements about The Greens and when your predictiosn failed to materlise, in other words you were wrong, you don't correct the record.

Howes, it is my view he is both brilliant and a future Labor leader.
Belly,
you'll find leopards changing their spots before Labor changes their incompetence in favour of competence.

Belly,
I cannot believe that you are as naive as you seem to be therefor I tend to think you allow sympathy to exceed your good looks.
Carr is not a criminal in the true sense of the word. He may well be a political con man but that is not a crime...yet.
The other two blokes you mentioned they are a different story.
I worked under Bob Askin when he was part of the East Coast Mafia of Askin, Joe and Henry Bolte. In the job we called them 'Corruption Incorporated'
Askin had a team called the S.O.D squad, 'Special Operations Division' of the Premiers Department. Secret budget, all that sort of thing.
We thought they were a joke, until we found out what they used to get up to and discovered that we were powerless, as a police force, to stop them.
As far as Wran was concerned, I busted one of his children driving his black BMW up the Pacific Highway at three in the morning carrying a kilo of pure hashish.
By 10.00 AM the next day the charges and the hashish had disappeared and the family member freed.
I also busted his 'bag-man', Malcolm Johns, in his white Rolls Royce collecting the Friday tribute bags.
Bad move on my part. Promoted and back to uniform and posted to the Northern Rivers Command.
Bob Carr wasn't in their league mate believe you me.

Banjo, Bob Carr has always expressed broad views on population. His interests were and are much broader than just Sydney’s ever-increasing population pressure.

He has always advocated a much lower rate of immigration, rather than just a redistribution of immigrants so that less might end up in Sydney.

http://www.population.org.au/about/people/the-hon-bob-carr

Ludwig,
Have it your way ole fella, but that is not my recollection.

Carr's objection to high immigration was mainly based on the impact it was having on Sydney. As NSW Premier, it is reasonable that he have concerns about that. After all his government had to find the funds for the additional infrastructure.

Chris Gaff wounder if you know I like the person you put in print here?
Your post above the one I put here was at best dismissive, see you made a statement and then informed me that was then end of it!
No way sport my right to my view remains.
You tell of your time in police uniform.
You do not need me to remind you, MORE BENT COPS than straight man some stations.
A Chief Inspector of Police told me that!
I happen to think a good Cop is worth more than we can ever pay them.
But have spent hours being near begged to give information to ICAC as a Police witness about a den of thieves, many caught up in a later sting.
Know why I refused? I knew others in the job would even up with me, some survive today.
So maybe you know some thing.
But consider this, no please!
I despise with every bone in my body for every day I live the true filth from within my party.
So why? when? do/did I not condemn without mercy any one I thought fitted that description, why would I do it here.
Chris, name the Liberal/Conservative voter who ever blinked an eye or commented here on the filth on their side?
Ludwig is a good bloke no really I would be the first to ask him about our trees but while admiring his stand on Carr will not be asking him for advice on who to vote for in my proud party,s leadership poll.

Brother Belly, why don't you ditch your Party of Filth and join the Party of Virtue, THE GREENS. Like a Prodigal Son returning we will, welcome you with open arms, show you that their is a better society awaiting, better than following the sinful ways of the Conservative devils. We will absolve you of any past political sins you may have committed (like saying Paul Howes is a good bloke) and we will welcome you into the promised land of (Green) milk and honey. Sister Lee and Brother Adam will welcoming you with love and kindness. All of us can rejoice in the knowledge that Brother Belly may soon be with us. Lets all now pray at the shrine of Father Bob... to the tune of kumbaya, ready, lets go!.....Belly your not singing.

Banjo, youy are probably right – Carr only talked about Sydney in an official capacity when he was NSW PM, which of course he should have done, as it was and is insane for that city to have a rapidly growing population due to immigration given its problems with services, infrastructure and all manner of other things.

But he has had the population-stabilisation ethic at heart for a very long time. He has talked about reading Ehrlich’s ‘Population Bomb’ with great admiration in about 1970.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/monocotyledon/3004826760/

Paul can I give you a little advice.
Try to be more controversial in your posts, we can then have an argument.
Like the way you turned your 3 plus percent drop in votes to a positive.
I too see it as a positive!
Positively negative that is.
Back to Carr not PM Ludwig.
He as did at other times Howard expressed concerns about the growth in Sydney and enclavism too.
He was always long before his leadership involved in Scouting.
We just have to live with it, we think differently than each other.
Show me however one who has never got it wrong, he/she has not yet been born.

Belly, you know I don't take this forum at all seriously. I hope my above post at least got a chuckle from you. I find a few posters on here, conservative ones mostly who wouldn't, crack a smile if they won Lotto. I think they are Blackjack McEwen reincarnated, never seen old Blackjack smile in all his years in politics.
I met up with a good mate of mine for a coffee yesterday, like you and I he is of mature years, in other words an old fart, my mate is a Labor stalwart, been a party member for years, and does so much for Labor, they want it, Bill does it. Bill is very much right wing conservative, a bit like you, but he finally admitted if it wasn't for Green preferences in so many seats Labor would have been annihilated. This election will do us no end of good, 3 years of Abbottism is just what the doctor ordered for the left of politics.

Paul I knew you would find it funny that was my point.
But bloke you need to think just a bit more about your words there.
First half if not more of your vote has always been Labor refugees.
You will agree with that surely, they have no place to go other than kick our shins then preference us.
Rather like you they know greens will not govern.
Too Paul pre greens our worst election polling before preferences was 42 percent.
I am truly very confident about my party,s future and its growth.
Can you tell me that about yours?
Surely we both know your party in part bought about Labors removal.
I remember black Jack, there is a tale, see you and I lived in a time the Cow Cockys party, then not now, had power,he kept Billy Mac from leading the Libs until he went.
Now too the Nationals are in fact the Gina Rhinheart party/miners toy.
That is why Windsor and Oakshot had over 65 percent of the polling, and why chubby6 cheeks, on her face too Gina dashed to Tamworth on election night to?
Kiss Barnaby's bottom.
Gee glad it was not mine, you have to draw the line some place!

Fixing the Senate is easy through electoral reform. Get rid of above the line voting and bring in optional preferencing perhaps up to six choices. It also gets rid controversial preference deals.

Losing the election may be the best thing to happen to the ALP in the short term. The party needs a good clean out,purging the system of it's bad practices, factional obsessions, powerbroker sharks and careerist politicians. If Labor can return to its roots, involve the membership and differentiate themselves from the Conservative end of politics they have a future.

With Abbott's already worrying tendency to choose secrecy over transparency and to reduce freedom of speech with talk of banning primary and secondary boycotts (yet unclear) and a review of companies rights to sue governments (meaning corporations will set nation's agenda) this mighty be a short-term government. Labor has an opportunity for reflection and review and a return to putting the interests of people first, particularly the most disadvantaged.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a career in politics. However, when aspiration becomes the primary goal and winning at all costs (at the loss of values) it is like the Emperor is finally seen naked, without his new clothes. When a member of your own team leaks for self-interest and is rewarded, it displays a lack of values.

Tanya Plibersek said on election night that Labor would have won the 2007 election with Beazley at the helm without the need to change leader, given the public's growing distaste for the Howard government. Perhaps Julia Gillard will write more in her memoir.

Pelican well said, I can not find a difference in my thoughts from yours here.
Tania is likely to be the Deputy leader as Bill Shorten seems to have it in the bag.
Labor has its task ahead but it has its helpers too.
Had Shorten taken over in 2010 we may well be still in government.
Tony Abbott has to ask himself and his advisers is this curtain of secrecy good or bad long term.
And he must answer this, with up to $75.000 for a well off woman to have a child, will his increasing cuts to the already battlers be a negative in the long run.
If any one can take it up to Abbott it is either one of these two candidates.
Hopefully this Parliament will fix the senate, or hold a DD election that does it.

Belly, surely your not trying to endorse Shorten as opposition leader. and a possible future PM. Shorten's political history amplifies Labor's malaise. The man is an untrustworthy back stabber, a political opportunist.
Pelican said; "Losing the election may be the best thing to happen to the ALP in the short term. The party needs a good clean out,purging the system of it's bad practices, factional obsessions, powerbroker sharks and careerist politicians. If Labor can return to its roots, involve the membership and differentiate themselves from the Conservative end of politics they have a future."
The only thing I would add is if they don't they are political history.
Belly you said you agreed with Pelican, and then give the thumbs up to Shorten a factional wheeler and dealer, a powerbroker and back stabber, a man devoid of any semblance of Labor principles.
What about the vote of the rank and file, will that mean nothing?
I can't agree with that crap about the Senate. As Don Chipp said "keep the bastards honest" and that is what The Greens are doing in the Senate, as my friends are doing in the NSW LC with O'Farrell, performing that vital roll

Paul well done! you out did me in the humor test there!
It was a joke that post wasnt it. funny stuff in any case.
Shorten is more than likely to be our leader again.
Both men are good candidates you of course want the leftest one to win.
My vote will be sealed and not spoken about again.
Look, brilliant humor from you has me giggling like a kid!
On the day after SIX high rollers left your party because of madam lash your lost leader you have front.
Australians unite!
Watch as the Senate results become known, do we want a few silly walks party,s to stop governments ruling?
Vote in the senate with great care and below the line, yes it will make waiting lines to vote a klm long but our rulers must not by their actions turn our votes in to seats for the emerging idiot party,s.

Belly,

Just to remind you again that you have volunteered nothing concerning Labor's leakers as was the promise of your OP.

Albanese has been mentioned as the preference of journalists for the Labor leadership because he has given them a constant supply of 'background briefings' (heh, heh) in the past. How he managed to beat his opponent Shorten in that goodness only knows.

What do you say though? Who would you rate as the champion leaker out of Albanese and Shorten, and how do they rate against the acknowledged past champions, Rudd and Julia Whatshername?

Belly,
The Greens have nothing to hide, yes 6 members of Christine Milne's staff resigned and took redundancy, you can read all about it with the link to 'Lateline' and Tony Jones interviews Christine. Personally I favor Adam Bandt as Greens leader.
As for Albo, we would like nothing better than to send Albo packing from the seat of Grayndler and have a Greens member installed, we see Grayndler as a future winnerable seat for The Greens, presently we command better than 23% of the vote.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3856536.htm

OTB I under stand, not every one can grasp the link to Labor leaks and the threads path.
Like a scavenger turning over a rubbish dump you came looking for Labor dirt.
My reference was to words Paul Howes used in saying he did not want a Senate seat.
He by his comments actually leaked, not many knew a vacancy was to come.
Seems a very good man, the once member for Eden Monaro, may get the seat.
Paul consider this, until the new Senate sits, mid next year, your party has the balance of power.
Maybe in truth in the new Senate too.
Do we agree on that?
Put your self in the shoes of middle Australia.
How long do you think both Labor and Liberal voters will execpt your party stalling them.
Paul be realistic, you like my Tory opponents have no difficulty in slamming Labor, but seem unable to grasp this truth, no less than 8, at the least, voters for every one who vote green never will.
Comment please do you see and agree with that?

All,
Wait for the double dissolution and then see where your derelict parties stand, sorry fall

If I was a Labor member my support would go to Albanese. Shorten is too wedded to the stuff I mentioned in my previous post, although to his credit he did a lot of work on disability policy and advocacy.

Paul
I think preferences are important in a fair voting system. My argument is not against preferencing, rather there should be a limit to the amount a voter has to number and that voters should be responsible for choosing preferences rather than handing it over to parties - with some pretty weird preference deals as seen in the last election.

Belly,
Could this link below be the real reason Paul Howe was dropped to replace Carr when he retires?

http://www.afr.com/p/national/grand_mufti_threatened_labor_over_Icf2aeY266mv1mLRHTUIXJ

I recall once when Carr and other pollies attended the Ramadam celebrations, the then Mufti threatened to withdraw political support from the NSW Labor government if they did not do more for Muslims. So threats of a political nature are not unknown to muslims.

Apparently it is Howe's support for Israel that the muslims object to.

I also doubt that Howe's support for homosexual marriage would go down well with muslims.

Interesting to see what comes of this, but disappointing if Labor has cow towed to muslim pressure. Still Labor has shown it will do anything to garner support from anywhere.

Belly,

It is easy to see why you are so down on the leakers in Labor. Keep that dirty washing off the rotary hoist, eh Belly?

However, whistleblowers can be good for democracy. Otherwise no-one would ever have known about the about the Grand Mufti who knows that as the ethnic tail he can swing the Labor dog.

<Grand Mufti threatened Labor over Israel ‘bias’

Australia’s senior Islamic cleric threatened to withdraw community support for federal Labor in Western Sydney if union leader Paul Howes replaced Bob Carr in the Senate, a leaked email reveals>

http://www.afr.com/p/national/grand_mufti_threatened_labor_over_Icf2aeY266mv1mLRHTUIXJ

That makes the Labor faithful like you, Belly, into the 'useful idiots' who do the leg-work and raise the money, while the ethnic lobby (and unions!) tells the party hierarchy whom to appoint as representatives, and would be sure to be dictating policy too.

OTB!
You are aware I have little regard for you or your ability to think.
You too know I have told you so you should, it is not my intention to post in your threads.
And too that I believe avoiding you is best for both of us and OLO.
You in that post not question, but prove you are not capable of comment worth reading.
My years here have seen *thousands* of posts demanding improvement from my side of politics.
Bloke think before opening your verbal mouth.
Read my comments ,even here, surely *an informed poster* would understand I am unlikely to change my spots, if someone needs a boot from my side I will let you know.
You before throwing mud, should consider my years old much repeated challenge.
*Tell me of the wrongs on your side of politics*
Last, you present as a some what limited and fixed Mind.
I have this for you, I want to learn every day of my life, not wade in the lower end of the pool with the kids so we are on different paths OK?

Belly,
Glad to see you back. I was beginning to get concerned because of you being unwell recently. I may be wrong, but I think you live alone. Do you have friends or relos that call on you regularly. Maybe other ham radio operators or neighbours?

Take care.

Banjo thanks bloke, yes by choice I live alone but have a big family.
As a matter of fact am on a health kick!
With Sugar as well as the unknown thing I get better if watching my food.
Small village mate and I have only been here from 1978, so am not a local yet, again in part my choice.
Hope to be around for the next federal election.
Bit concerned that a quota may come for gays, not against them.
But surely we know many on both sides are already in the house, based on ability.
Wounder if we can get a quota for grumpy old blokes?
Maybe we can get one for those like my self and many more who sometimes have the heart to warn the party its trousers have a hole in the bottom?.

Belly,

I am saying that you and many other staunch Labor supporters are being treated as dupes by political opportunists, careerists and union bosses who continually demonstrate they are in it for themselves and apart from that have no interest in the roots, traditions and traditional ideology of Labor.

Honestly now, what conclusions do you yourself draw from the past and recent behaviour of egocentric, self-seeking back-stabbing clowns like Julia Whatshername, Bill Shorten (aka, Whatever She Says) and Penny Wong (who disloyaly stabbed her leader and fellow member of The Sisterhood)?

Now there may or may not be some of that in other political parties too and the Greens are sinking knives into one another as I write, but this thread is discussing Labor. As well, Labor and their sidekicks the Greens have just been thoroughly spanked by the electorate.

There is nothing to be served by you railing in frustration against any like me who are prepared to apparently waste their time advising you of those facts. That you are in a constant state of denial must be dreadful for you, but the way out is to freely discuss the problems and work on solutions. Speaking of which, Rudd's solutions to union corruption are already being given the deep six by Shorten and he and others would force Rudd out of the Parliament. How is that for thumbing their noses at democracy?

Belly,
Small world, I have type 2 diabetes as well, but control it with drugs, so far. BP is the main concern of doc. Only have beer now on special occasions. Don't know if I will make next election, often see in local paper people I know karking it, all my vintage and younger.

Also have been living alone, while place is on market. Wife is in Qld, for health reasons, but signs are I may join her shortly. Will just have to wait and see.

In meantime we see polys saying, and doing, silly things. Questionable.

Banjo good morning.
Well we both know what sugar brings with it including the high blood pressure.
It has been my stunningly bad luck to have had both Q fever many years agoi, and recently, not over it yet Barma Forest Virus.
Once you confront the fact it will not go away you can use the best and only medicine that works.
Confront it get pleasure from the small things like a coffee under a tree in the garden, but never ever give in.
OTB next post is for you.

OTB I in your post saw an attempt to lower the heat between us and just maybe both respect you for it and feel you place little value on my intellect.
See most know, I am both Labor and Union for life.
Long time posters will have seen me verbally lash, even trash, both.
See you see things I never can, because in my view they do not exist.
You make it a crime to be a just left of center person.
I brand that position as the right one for folk who care about others.
I FEAR the Tea party element in todays Coalition government you fail to see it.
I call for change and reform for both party and unions.
You call for a hearse.
I am deeply troubled by the stage managed nature of Abbott,s first weeks in power .
And truly think the hand and mind of Rupert Murdock, and Gina no heart are involved.
You see me as quite mad for saying those things.
I too understand we are a better country, served by better politicians, for changing governments now and again.
You see only one side as worthy to rule.
OTB I have great regard for some conservatives here.
But see your mind as a closed one at best.
I thank you for your attempt to communicate.
But too saw it as evidence, you and some others, do not truly understand yesterdays insults, those from decades ago, do not truely look at the great and very different ALP/UNIONS we have today.
You will say I am blind.
But know, unlike your self, I *constantly* let it be known when my side needs it, kick them.

Belly,

You and traditional Lefties must be exasperated.

Someone said that the association with the Greens finally brought Labor down. That it probably did and it was a very poor decisions by a careerist, egocentric politician now gone but still bobbing up to promote herself and sink the boot in. She does that while claiming she has the good the the party at heart of course.

However the crux of the problem for Labor and the unions is the takeover by very clever and ruthless men and women, usually young relatively speaking, who are skilled practitioners of the dark arts of (Marxist) manipulation, who set out to use and abuse those organisations for their own personal benefit. Honestly now, what traditional Leftie would pursue materialism,(say) purchase a $2million bungalow, for example?

All of the traditional lefties with any street cred were never like that. They wouldn't abuse the opposite gender just to bad-mouth a conservative opponent like Abbott either. They could get laid without paying for it at the knock shop too. They must be turning in their graves.

Each and every day traditional Labor supporters must feel trapped between the devil (devils who have hijacked Labor and the unions) and the deep blue sea (as represented by the LNP). Mind you, some of the LNP's policies are more traditional Labor these days.

Rightly or wrongly as you and others might see it, the electorate saw Labor as being managed by corrupt, self-interested clowns. There is some truth in it though and nothing will change until ways are found (eg independent audits) to thwart the rogues and selfish career politicians. Trustworthy men and women with life experience and good principles are needed desperately .

OTB I wasted my effort.
Tried to be kinder and to you! a person I long ago rejected as having no idea and no substance.
KNOW that is my true view of you.
You lack the ability to see what is in plain sight.
Labor received its flogging, it was coming, because they forget us the members and voters.
That was not a recommendation for Abbott, he is unsuited to lead a plow horse.
34 in every hundred voted for us.
You my red necked bloke, so easily brand me leftist!
Yet I like my modernizing party are in the seat true Liberalism once held, not left .
I do not like you/want to talk to you/have placed no value on your knowledge of politics.
Is that enough?
Last being judged by you remains a matter approaching humor nothing else.

Belly,

It is apparently not a good day for you.

Go in peace.

Quite wrong OTB you make a habit of telling others how they think even why.
Look first at your self for answers to my words.
Sorry but you have seen *my considered views* about you.

Belly,

I have said this before and I am sure others would have said it to you as well, but not everyone comes to this table for win/lose and to ensure their 'side' prevails, as you and some others do.

It is silly to defend the indefensible.

It is going to be a very long six years minimum for you.

OTB you may be unaware of this but verbal acts can be seen just as clearly as body Talk.
In your case your efforts to get me to see you as other than the real you is.
Well some what informative and interesting but too a surrender in full view, by you.
Let us be honest, I unlike you understand not all my views or for sure in your case, are even close to true.
You haunt me with attempts to tell me you are right I am wrong.
My spelling and composition of my posts are not sign of my intellect.
While self praise is not recommendation, you should remember and value that.
If my IQ is not higher than yours I am nothing.
I do not enjoy such talk but you leave me no other way.
Your post history Sir, the way you talk almost all the time too thers repelled me long ago.
I value nothing in your posts and am trying to avoid you.
Posting slowly, try to keep up, as we live we grow, read your post history, look deeper not taking it for granted only you are right.
Improvement comes best after self examination.
Can you consider this with me, as we dislike each other is it better for this forum that we avoid further contact?
Secondly can you truely ask me to give any value to your views if they claim mine are wrong always.
Is it youth or extreme old age that drives your miss placed self confidence?