had it been 3 whites shooting a young coloured man jogging in America you can be sure it would be classed a racist attack. Not so a white Aussie. So many double standards.

In a discussion it is possibly easier to call other people racist, than for some people to backup there argument on certain issues.

According to police - three "bored" teenagers (ages 15 - 16),
shot a passing jogger, having nothing better to do with their
time. It is a tragedy. A tragedy that will affect the lives of
family members across two continents. One wonders how these
teenagers were able to access fire-arms and whether this will
have any bearing on a push for stronger gun-control laws?

Lexi [translated], 'They are blameless, the gun made them do it'.

Doubtless their parents are also at fault along with society, blah, blah...

Of course the simpler explanation is that they are gutless evil types who would offend anyhow and with whatever tool was convenient, including their bare fists and boots. Doubtless a history will come out in due course. They deserve to go to prison. One case where Milat style mongrels were discovered early through their own stupidity.

Runner is right though. The usual suspects would have worked the media up to a frenzy if the roles were reversed. It is called political correctness. As is blaming the tool.

onthebeach, Who in this tread "blamed the tool"? Lexi questions where and how they got it and if it may have a bearing on law changes. She did not say it was because they had a gun that the murder happened!
I agree that it would have been classed a racist killing had roles been reversed. Political correctness gone too far yet again. Or maybe they would have shot anyone they came across.
Gun Laws in America do need tightening, however those determined to get one will get one no matter what. The fact that at least one of the parents of these kids believes his son is "Innocent" says a lot. And the Herald Sun does mention gangs and general bad behaviour, but not to this scale. Whilst maybe push over parents may be one factor in this, as you are saying, in the end it is no ones fault but the 3 that committed the crime. They are old enough to know killing is wrong, heck my 2 year old knows that!

Yes I agree there would have been much more of an outcry, and possibly some added violence, if three caucasion guys drove by and shot dead an African American jogger.

But if the 3 youths didn't have a gun, the Aussie jogger may have had more of a fighting chance at least. Only cowards shoot someone else in the back.

After reading about the country with one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world, Singapore, and the one with one of the highest violent crime rates in the world , America, I wasn't surprised to read about this awful crime.

The main similarity about these 2 countries is that they both have the death penalty for murderers.
The main differences between these two countries is that Singapore has very strict gun laws, with serious punishments for just brandishing a gun in public, let alone discharging it, while America thinks it is their citizens' constitutional right' to bear arms.

So, do I think the slack gun laws, and high gun ownership levels, in America have lead to crimes like this one?
Well even blind Freddie can see that...

amazing no one asked about the dead man and his family and loved ones
the tragic loss to their loved ones
i guess he is dispensable

we must look at how the 3 murderers should be rehabilitated
we must study if society was at fault
we must see if their parents were too lenient
we must examine if their parents caned and spanked them which in turn started this violent streak in them because of emotional scars
we must NOT blame the gun ownership policy because we love our individual choice (never mind if a poor aussie student got killed)

no no...we must not even say horrendous things like 'these murderers should be shot or hanged"

boredom, guns etc. why do we find an excuse for something so evil. Maybe we are in denial.

does seem that finally some of the press have had their pc shackles broken.

One of the killers quoted as saying 'he hated white people '.

Can't say I am surprised.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/chilling-911-call-details-final-moments-of-melbourne-baseballer-chris-lane8217s-life/story-fni0fiyv-1226700172461

platypus,

"no no...we must not even say horrendous things like 'these murderers should be shot or hanged"

Not if we believe in the God-given absolute ethic of "the sanctity of human life".

Dear Bec,

Thank You for understanding my earlier post.
My intention was not to label, or finger-point
but to try to broaden the discussion in our
attempts at looking for answers to this tragedy.
I thought that regardless of the motives for
the random killing - the severe restriction
of private handgun ownership in the US could
perhaps be raised in instances such as this tragedy
and the loss of lives that they cause and grief to
families.

We all know that in international terms, the United
States is an extremely violent society, with a
homicide rate far exceeding that of any other
industrialised nation.
A single American city like Chicago, Houston, or
Los Angeles records more murders in a typical year
than does the whole of England, where even the police do
not normally carry guns.

Most other countries severely restrict private handgun
ownership, but there are at over 60 million handguns in
the US - and weapons of this type are used in more than three
quarters of the tens of thousands of murders that occur
each year.

I am not blaming the guns for these crimes.
To suggest that is not logical. I am suggesting
that perhaps Americans need to look at the liberty being
granted to the individual in not having stronger laws on
handguns - so that deviants do not continue to abuse
the freedom currently granted to them by American society.
It seems like a high price for American society to pay,
and I'm sure that in this particular case - the
families of the deceased just may agree.

@sus

you left out the impt fact
in singapore, disciplining of the child, yes even 2 yo with a teeny weeny cane or spanking is expected of a parent
yes, it is lawful until it becomes childabuse
and no busybodies will poke his/her nose into anyone else family...again unless it is abuse

ok ok... some lost soul here will say the cane is a weapon
LOL

i was told, one of the worse shame a parent can have hurled at them is their children are not well brought up

many of them told me, these white kids should have been spanked instead of having their exasperated parents pleading with them to behave

the british vet from manchester is right in saying she would have spanked the badly behaved kid if she was the mother

so much for the badly brought up aussie kids we have here

platypus 1900, "amazing no one asked about the dead man and his family and loved ones the tragic loss to their loved ones i guess he is dispensable"

You are right. His family and friends should be allowed to grieve.

However it is only to be expected that the Left would want to quickly sheet home blame to 'guns', or failing that to find other rationalisations and excuses to prop up the social re-engineering they have wrought. If that all fails there is always the mantra that 'men are violent' and Nature's masculinity is dreadfully wrong.

It would never do to find that the Left's favoured social 'solutions' have unforeseen, serious negative consequences. There is no way that the self-styled 'Progressives' will ever be held accountable for their social experiments. An example could be no discipline in schools. Heavens, what if there are downsides - negatives as well as the oft-promoted positives like ethnic restaurants - to that diversity we have to have, for instance.

At the same time it should be obvious that there are always some evil people in the world. Fortunately their numbers are few in any society. No amount of catastrophysing or 'if one child is saved' bans will prevent a determined person from offending.

What is needed is less political correctness and fewer litigious parents to allow teachers, doctors and authorities to identify likely offenders earlier and the facilities to provide care away from the mainstream population. That might un-do some of the changes wrought by the 'do gooder' Left who obsess about the rights of offenders.

@poirot

you really do not see the reasoning that precisely bec of sanctity of life, that is why a convicted murderer need to be punished

nvm

let us move on

Posters may find the following link of some
interest:

http://americablog.com/2013/08/3-oklahoma-teens-kill-aussie-baseball-player-for-the-fun-of-it.html

The author gives an interesting take on this incident.
He tells us that:

"We've got a horrific culture of violence in our country
and it's an issue that's complicated as hell.
But we also have a larger culture that is too quick to
turn to violence and to quick to revere violence. A
culture that simply isn't responsible enough for gun
ownership and that culture of violence is not just fed by
gun advocates - it also creates more gun advocates. It's
a vicious circle. Then you add poverty, discrimination, a
resultant underclass and yet another sub-culture of
violence into the mix and you end up with 3 bored teenagers
deciding to gun a guy down because there's nothing on TV."

"...I've never been sympathetic to the 2nd Amendment crowd,
but I've also never been sympathetic to children who act
like animals. "

"I'm tired of both - and it's not clear that either side
of this debate - the Left or the Right is willing to
face all the issues that make this kind of violence
possible."

"Some on the Right thinks guns aren't the problem and some on
the Left think guns are the only problem.
Neither are right!"

BTW - For your information - the three teens are black.
Google the information for yourselves.

Lexi, "It's a vicious circle. Then you add poverty, discrimination, a
resultant underclass ..."

Excuses, rationalisations.. Need you be in such a rush to prove me right. My earlier post above refers.

A comparison..
For many, many years, thousands of Aussies have led meagre existences on the fringes of country towns, eking out a living from casual farm work, growing their own produce and keeping their own dairy cow or goats to help feed the children.

In your terms Lexi they were living in poverty, they were discriminated against through the lack of targeted government services and they were an underclass. Yet they were solid citizens and raised their children the same way. As many a mother might have said, "Soap is cheap and self discipline leads to independence" and "We don't have much but we have one another, our pride and happiness".

Now why do you imagine they didn't raise their children to hate, and what prevented their children from using the plentiful supply of ordinary farm tools and products to bomb, main and kill?

What the Left 'Progressives' (a misleading descriptor if there ever was one!) do not accept is that their social change experiments have resulted in serious unexpected consequences. But they refuse to acknowledge their wrongs.

Fortunately some of the older style lefties such as Left guru Professor Robert Manne have the guts and goodwill to finally acknowledge Left ideology which has been proved to be B.S. It will be a long cold day in Hell before the authoritarian Left ever confesses any of the unintended negative outcomes of Left ideology though.

I gave the link that I did because we're not
discussing Australia here but America and what
happened there was as a result of the culture of
violence that exists in that country plus the other
factors that the author mentioned.

The acts were comitted by three black American
teenagers - and according to FBI investigations and
statistics the high involvement of American blacks in
homicide results primarily from the profound social
disorder - involving broken families,
drug abuse, poor education, and unemployment -
that has afflicted a small segment of black youth in
the ghetto "underclass." It is to these things that
the author refers. Much of this black-on-black
homicide appears random, mindless, wantonly malign,
psychopathetic and so on. Murder of this kind is
committed by people who feel that, even if they lose their
own lives, they're not losing much; who see no reason to
adopt society's values, for society offers them nothing;
who get no nearer to affluence or success than what they
see on their TV set; whose repressed rage and even self-hate
erupts against those around them.

Now what all this has to do with rural Australia - I have no
idea. Nor why this discussion is being turned into a
Left/Right dogfight once again is beyond me. All I can do is
politely hazard a guess that some people just simply tend to
see everything from the one fixed ideological viewfinder.
And that's a pity and sad - because then that results in a
total breakdown of communication.

But what can you do. Simply ignore and move on.

Look, the Tweets made by the Edwards kid in this case don't prove anything much beyond that he's an idiot who's just acting tough online, Blacks go on killing sprees and target White people for brutality all the time in the U.S, you could say it's just a fact of life.
Did anyone hear about Josh Chellew? Nope, thought not:
http://www.beaufortobserver.net/Articles-NEWS-and-COMMENTARY-c-2013-08-16-268396.112112-The-difference-between-Trayvon-Martin-and-Josh-Chellew-is-as-clear-as-black-and-white-and-as-disgusting-as-it-can-get.html
What about the Christian & Newsom murders? *Warning,this video is not graphic but it's extremely distressing*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIUIUqPYbng
This case is completely different to the Martin/Zimmerman affair,Chris Lane's killers are low IQ Black thugs who are everything they appear to be, gross and offensive statements about Whites easily roll of the tongue with that type of person.
George Zimmerman on the other hand was far from that "Ghetto Black" mindset and low level intellectual function as it's possible to be, the idea that he was "Racist" was on the face of it so preposterous that the "Race hustlers" like Barrack Obama, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson looked like fools from the outset.

Lexi,
I'd also question the ability on such people to exercise free will, when a Black person has an IQ of 70 or 75 and grows up with little to no competent adult guidance it's debatable whether they are capable of making good choices at all.
That said, how much of an effect can material factors really have on a person who's almost oblivious to the world around them? Most "Ghetto Blacks" have huge egos and very high opinions of themselves and Blacks when surveyed generally report high self esteem.
So gentle humane observers such as yourself see poverty and oppression, Runner sees things his way and the "Ghetto Blacks" believe themselves to be the strutting Elite of their world.

Lexi,

LOL I don't imagine that you would be able to understand the comparison if it challenged your argument.

Human behaviour is human behaviour and there is not a very big difference between humans in the US and Australia.

Your prejudice is to find excuses and rationalisations for the behaviour of those young thugs. However as can be easily demonstrated through comparisons, others who have grown up in deprived circumstances similar to theirs do not go out and commit serious antisocial acts. You discount their ability and freedom to make choices for the better or for the worse.

You also plead that you do not understand how the Left's social policies could contribute. But then again you would say that where it runs counter to your opinions. It is not the tools available to different populations that causes such violence. It is not a 'gun culture'. That is just finding ways to divert attention away from the real causes and the choices offenders make of their own volition.

Dear OTB,

The information that was given was obtained from the
annual reports of the FBI which compiles data provided
from local police forces. It's not something that was
made up by myself. Therefore it is legitimate. As also,
is the link that I gave earlier - where the author
confirms what the annual reports say.

You accuse me of things that are in your head - not in
my posts. You appear to be arguing on an emotional level.
Not a mature, intelligent one.

I shall leave you to it.
I will not respond to you any further.

Dear Jay,

Have a read of the link I gave in an earlier post.
We can't compare Australia with the US because
they have a different culture and different laws
to us. Also they are by international standards
one of the most violent countries in the Western
world. The circumstances are totally different.

I watched the mother of one of the 3 teens being
interviewed on camera. She was definitely from the
ghetto "underclass," in the US. And I do imagine
that the social disorder to which her family was
exposed would play a big part in the behaviour
of her child. That's not excusing his behaviour -
it's simply trying to understand it - and look
for possible solutions to stop a tragedy like
this from happening again.

Lexi,

"The acts were comitted by three black American
teenagers - and according to FBI investigations and
statistics the high involvement of American blacks in
homicide results primarily from the profound social
disorder - involving broken families,
drug abuse, poor education, and unemployment -
that has afflicted a small segment of black youth in
the ghetto "underclass." It is to these things that
the author refers. Much of this black-on-black
homicide appears random, mindless, wantonly malign,
psychopathetic and so on. Murder of this kind is
committed by people who feel that, even if they lose their
own lives, they're not losing much; who see no reason to
adopt society's values, for society offers them nothing;
who get no nearer to affluence or success than what they
see on their TV set; whose repressed rage and even self-hate
erupts against those around them."

Well said.

Lexi, I didn't compare the U.S to Australia but you can't compare Black Americans to other Americans either, the issue of violence in the U.S is related to genetics and the people on the left side of the bell curve, not "poverty" or "disadvantage". You can compare majority European communities in the U.S to the rest of the European world because their rates of crime and poverty are the essentially the same and obviously if you removed Mexicans and Blacks from statistics or from the country altogether the crime rate would be about 80% lower over all.

Dear Jay,

If we look at the statistics published each year by the
FBI in its "Uniform Crime Reports," they tell us that
50 per cent of all persons arrested were under the
age of 25, that males were four times more likely than
females to be arrested, that persons arrested were much
more likely to live in large citties than in small towns
or rural areas and that they were disproportionately likely
to be black. In fact blacks constituted the highest percentage
of all arrests.

The problem with this is that official statistics don't
always give an accurate picture of society's "criminal
element." A great deal of crime is not reported at all,
even if it is detected - it's the ones who get arrested,
prosecuted and convicted that make up the stats.
And these people are the ones who actually experience formal
negative sanctions are the product of a long process of
social selection.

Only a proportion of crimes are detected, only a proportion
of those detected are reported to the police, only a
proportion of those reported lead to an arrest, only a
proportion of arrests lead to prosecution, only a
proportion of prosecutions lead to convictions, and only
a proportion of convictions lead to imprisonment.

The chances of going from one stage to the next depend
largely on two factors: the seriousness of the offense,
and the social status of the offender.

Studies have shown that police were guided by such things
as as race, dress, demeanor. Of those who were polite,
contrite, and co-operative, less than 5 per cent were
arrested; but those who were defiant, uncooperative,
fully two thirds were arrested.

Dear Poirot,

Thanks.

Your input, as always, is greatly appreciated.

Lexi,

Yoiu should be thanking me and others for that fact. In threads on similar subjects before it has been pointed out to you many times that violence in the US is not 'men' and nor is it because of inanimate objects as in a 'gun culture'. Gun crime and violence generally is black on black and often associated with drugs.

By comparison, in Australia violence is also associated with drugs, especially alcohol, and the low gun crime that Australia has always enjoyed is associated with the criminals and gangs involved in the illegal drug trade. However there is another parallel being found: the extreme violence and gun use (as well as machetes, knives and other brutal methods) are strongly associated with ethnic gangs. The ethnic gangs that are taking over outlaw motorcycle gangs for instance are not only ethnic, but the criminals concerned don't even ride motorcycles.

So again I put to your the obvious conundrum that while there are many, many poor and deprived people all over the world and in the US and Australia too, that regrettable poor and downtrodden status alone does not result in a crime wave by the people concerned. There are people living happy family lives in dumps for instance. Happiness and good citizen behaviour are not dependent upon income or on the rather convenient and self-serving excuse and rationalisation of 'discrimination' as you would have it.

to be continued..

continued...

However violence including gun crime are strongly associated with (say) diversity and multiculturalism. That is where ethnic or religious sub-populations keep themselves separate withing a culture and do not assimilate. So the real questions have to do with that, noting that the separateness is cultivated and imposed by the sub-populations themselves with the encouragement of government and taxpayers' money. It is how fundamentalism can bloom and where antisocial thugs and psychopaths can be encouraged and hide to escape detection.

It is interesting too how many toxic traditions including criminal gangs have been imported whenever immigration officials are too overwhelmed by numbers to perform proper checks, or when the idiotic appeals system in abused. But you along with the Greens Protest Party also want an open door to all who want to come here.

Also, you favour the extreme multiculturalism in Australia and the diversity-we-have-to-have which do, as demonstrated, present risks. Those risks are not being managed effectively. That is obvious from the gang violence that is occurring and from the arrest of many would-be terrorists.

'Gun culture' is a diversion to avoid accountability for some rather nasty unintended consequences of Left policy. While I have mentioned some factors that contribute and even spawn the violence seen in the US and in other countries, there is a whole range of social policies that ought be examined. The Left's interference in education for example.

Lexi,

We should examine modern consumer culture and institutionalised life.

This article from Joe Bageant homes in on America's miasma:

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2010/12/america-y-ur-peeps-b-so-dum.html

So much for civilisation.....

it seems some have found studies to find why its understandable to be racist if you are coloured but you are plain evil if you are white. It certainly supports their world view. No wonder progress is never made with such obvious discrepencies.

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for the link.

It confirms some of the thinking
that I experienced having lived and
worked in the US for over ten years - as well as
having a cousin who was a detective in the LAPD
and prior to his retirement worked with troubled
teens. I am also very familiar with the "black"
problem that exists in that country. A problem
that many outsiders couldn't even begin to
understand - never having experienced anything
quite like it

Jay Of Melbourne I can not understand why you have not been struck down by lightning for even holding such views, let alone expressing them.

I have seen it in many places, that when a group can blame anything but themselves for their failure they will.

There is a report that these gangs are now making such drive by shootings part of initiation for members.

Still some people suggest we should rehabilitate, rather than eliminate the filth.

Dear runner,

I don't know of anybody with an ounce of intelligence
who would be stating that it's OK to be racist no matter
what colour you happen to be or anyone who would say that one
colour is good and the other is evil. It's mainly people
who are not very well educated and simply have very fixed
ideological views that think that way - and then they
of course tend to see things only from a very fixed
ideological viewfinder - on every single issue and
discussion (no matter what the topic) that comes along.

Talking about the discrepancies of racism... American
President Obama has been called an "Oreo Cookie."
Actually that cookie is a "bi-racial" cookie.
You've got 3 of the chocolate wafers and then you've
got the white vanilla cream.

Still, Republican congressman, Doug Lamborn, of Colorado,
stated that working with President Obama was like
"touching a tar baby," perhaps the congressman didn't
know that the term "tar-baby" was a racial slur.

Then we have the NYPD officers who complained about
West Indian Carnival duty in Brooklyn on Facebook,
and then disparaged, belittled, and dehumanized them,
despite the fact that the NYPD fired more shots on
the day of the parade then any parade-goer.

'It's mainly people
who are not very well educated and simply have very fixed
ideological views that think that way - and then they
of course tend to see things only from a very fixed
ideological viewfinder - on every single issue and
discussion (no matter what the topic) that comes along. '

I thought most working for the ABC were educated and yet
you describe the presenters and guests on the national broadcasters perfectly.

Hasbeen,
Thanks, I think LOL.
Back to topic though, the Lane murder isn't really a racial issue, just like the Martin/Zimmerman affair wasn't a racial issue...until the race Hustlers got hold of it.
There's no equivalent outcry, no "Jog for Chris" or run on Chris's favourite lollies or soft drink, firstly because White people have more sense and have the intellectual capacity to see things as they really are and secondly because they're not as conformist as Blacks.
People have expressed alarm at the disparity in the seriousness of the reaction but that perspective is informed by a belief that all people and all groups of people are the same and will react in the same way in a given situation.
Race is real, it matters.
There's also the fact that White people have nothing to gain from going on TV stamping their feet and running off at the mouth about "Racism". David Duke does speak out but he lives in poverty more or less whereas Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and Mark Potok, while just as disreputable as Duke are well off and lead comfortable lives.
Similarly Oprah and Barrack Obama have plenty to gain by sticking their oar in on Black causes, ie money in the case of Ms Winfrey and potential Democrat voters for the next election in the case of Obama.

A thoughtful article from Time by John McWhorter:

"Don’t Ignore Race in Christopher Lane’s Murder
The association of young black men with violence doesn't come out of thin air"
http://ideas.time.com/2013/08/22/viewpoint-dont-ignore-race-in-christopher-lanes-murder/?iid=ent-main-mostpop2

Dear runner,

Be careful not to confuse excellence with perfection.
Excellence, the ABC can reach for, perfection belongs
to a higher authority, as you keep telling us.

Perhaps the best that you can expect of yourself isn't
perfection but progress.

Lexi, "I am also very familiar with the "black" problem that exists in that country (US)"

Is that so? Then you should also be aware that not only is the lion's share of violence, including gun violence, black on black, but it is also black gang member on black gang member.

Also the violence is drug related.

So the message for the 'Progressive' elite is that they can help to reduce such violence but not buying their recreational drugs that support and provide the most profitable business for the drug gangs.

How about that? Something the 'Progressives' can actually do to make a positive contribution to society - just stop buying the coke and pills.

That would make Greens Protest Party conferences less of a hoot. However, 'if one child is saved it is worth it' as 'Progressives' are wont to say when directing others on how to lead their lives.

Should be, "So the message for the 'Progressive' elite is that they can help to reduce such violence BY not buying their recreational drugs that support and provide the most profitable business for the drug gangs"

Worth repeating anyway. It is completely lost of the thousands of well-heeled who buy their recreational drugs that without them there would be no $$ windfalls for the drug gangs who would then be starved of money.

Dear OTB,

Yes that is so. And, I've already stated the facts
regarding the problems faced by blacks in the US.
Kindly go back and read what I've posted. It will
save you duplicating information that's already been
stated.

As for the "Progressive" elite? Are you talking about
Celebrities and their documented drug problems?
Could you be a bit
more specific - because in the US there's an awful lot of
them - and I'm not sure that they're all on coke and pills.
I do know that drug abuse is a huge problem there - but
do enlighten us with your information and sources.
I'm sure everyone would love to hear what you've got to say.

As for your reference to the "Greens Protest Party?"
Who specifically are they? I'm not familiar with them in
the US. Or are you now back in Australia and having another
go at another political party (instead of Labor this time)?

For someone who regularly spruiks Greens Protest Party opinion word for word and oft repeated, your claimed ignorance is not convincing. Rather than tread the Party line supporting offenders and providing excuses for their awful choices -no-one makes them do what they independently choose to do- what about you answer some of the questions already posed in the thread? Poor, downtrodden, disadvantaged or however you might describe offenders, they still chose to commit their dreadful crimes, whereas others in similar situations (poor, disadvantaged), do not and never would commit a crime

Why is that so? To learn from the US experience, what does it say about managing the risks of the diversity-we-have-to-have and our recent extreme multiculturalism policy that encourages separateness of ethnic groups within mainstream society and maintenance of imported traditions, priorities and imperatives?

Speaking of which, it is a fact that immigration policy once ensured that there were no ethnic enclaves set up. Where that policy and the advice of DOFA and the Immigration Department were ignored, as for example by Malcolm Fraser, or where migrant intakes were floods that overwhelmed official scrutiny, serious social problems have resulted in the form of crime waves from gangs and toxic traditions have become established (as is the risk with FGM for instance).

Fraser was warned on Lebanese migrants,
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/cabinet-papers/fraser-was-warned-on-lebanese-migrants/story-e6frgda6-1111112763458

Immigration introduced organised crime, including criminal gangs such as the mafia or East and SE Asian gangs, eg., the Vietnamese 5T in Cabramatta, Sydney. That is not to oppose immigration, but it recommends transparency, forthright identification of the risks and appropriate and robust risk treatments.

You don't like to discuss the negative consequences of the Left policies you promote and would prefer to divert discussion to 'gun culture' instead, as you tried to do first up. A superficial but usually effective ploy to divert discussion away from the risks of overenthusiastic diversity and extreme multiculturalism. However there are parallels in policy mistakes with the US that cannot be ignored and it is doing a lasting disservice to Australia to avoid discussion of them.

Dear OTB,

Let me see - it's all the fault of:

1) Multiculturalism.
2) Greens Protest Party.
3) "Progressive" elites.
4) Left politics.
5) et cetera, et cetera.

We all get it - you've got it all figured out.
Deterring crime is one free shotgun at a time - problem
solved!

Can't wait for your next "expose," and solution.

cont'd ...

BTW: I have never supported the Greens.
And your obsession with them is a bit of a worry.
Unless of course you feel that they're some sort of
a threat to the Party that you support? However,
kindly don't attribute something to me that is
simply not true. It's an annoying habit of yours
when you run out of arguments. As for diversion?
You should go back and re-read your own posts -
you got diversion mastered down to a fine art.
Keep up the good work. It's entertaining.

Lexi,

If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it probably is a duck.

The fact is that you routinely air Greens Protest Party bumpf even before the media releases hit the stands.

Now what about getting around to answering the questions that have been directed at you? Stop ducking.

Dear OTB,

As I told Bazz on another thread -
therein lies your problem - you need a
proper doctor, not a, 'QUACK, QUACK, QUACK."

As for my answering your questions?
You never answer any of mine and why should I
encourage your rants and diversions - such
as comparing us to the US - two different horses.

You don't want a discussion.
What you want is someone to insult and give you a
platform for your rants.
I'll leave you to it.

Cheers.

"You don't want a discussion.
What you want is someone to insult and give you a
platform for your rants.
I'll leave you to it."

Awww....Lexi, don't be so perceptive....now you've gone and spoiled otb's Sunday.

: )

Lexi,

Once again you depart in a huff, unreasonably refusing to answer any challenge of your opinions and slamming the door on debate. How many times have you been tried to close off threads when your opinions have been found wanting? A lot, it seems.

Up to you I guess, but the policies of political parties shouldn't substitute for one's own observation and examination of the facts. Nor should debate be win/lose.

There are unfortunate parallels between the policies that are failing in the US and the UK too for that matter, and the policies being pushed by the Greens Protest Party in particular in Australia.

First para should be,

"Once again you depart in a huff, unreasonably refusing to answer any challenge of your opinions and slamming the door on debate. How many times have you tried to close off threads when your opinions have been found wanting? A lot, it seems."

A minor edit, but a para worth repeating.

Dear OTB,

I will repeat it for you:

When you stop with your -

1) Unreasonable generalisations.
2) Personal insults.
3) Attributing illogical statements that are in your
head and not in what I've stated.
4) Using every discussion for your own political agenda.
5) Assigning blame instead of reading what's been said.
6) And the list goes on...

Then, and only then,
I shall be happy to have a discussion with you.
However, as I don't see this happening any time
soon - I see no point in continuing.
No "huff", no drama.
Kindly find someone
else to stalk on this forum.
Someone who may value your opinions.

Cheers.

Lexi,

Many who have challenged your opinions have been subjected to similar accusations, attacks and door slams.

Rather than feel defensive when presented with facts that challenge your entrenched opinions, why not take the opportunity to review your beliefs?

There is a whole world out there.

Dear OTB,

How about you going back to your own posting record
and re-reading what you've posted to me
throughout your time on this forum - what people like -
Luciferase, CSteele, Poirot, Bec, Suse, and others have had
to say about you. You regard yourself as some kind of
"authority" it seems in giving advice. How about taking
some of your own? Yes, there's a whole world out there.
But all you seem to have discovered is "ME." And flattering
as some people may find that. I don't. So be a good chap -
and - bugger off!

onthebeach....

Enjoys having a pick.

However, he doesn't like it when his target refuses to to bite.

Dear Poirot,

That's his problem.

I've just been cleaning out some of my husband's
old book stock -
and have come across a book given to him by a
friend in Los Angeles that was written by a former
Attorney-General of the US, Ramsey Clark,
entitled, "Crime in America." Apparently it was
a national best-seller in its day, and a Book-of-
Month Club Choice. I've just flipped through it
but it appears to be a literate, thoughtful,
and reasoned discussion of crime in America.
I intend to read it - even though it's out of
date. It will be interesting to see how America
has changed over the years - (better or worse).

"runner" wrote 21 August 2013 5:35:06 PM: "had it been 3 whites shooting ... you can be sure it would be classed a racist attack."

I assume the attack being referred to was the one on Christopher Lane. A search of news items about the attack found about 247,000 using the word "racial" (or similar). So it is incorrect to suggest that a racial motivation for the crime is not being considered: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Christopher+Lane%22+racial+attack&oq=%22Christopher+Lane%22+racial+attack

Saw this the other day.

Yesterday I placed my shotgun on the front porch, gave it six shells, and noticing it had no legs, placed it in a wheelchair to help it get around.
While I was gone, the mailman delivered my mail, the boy across the street picked up my yard, and quite a few cars stopped at the stop sign near my house.
After ten hours, I checked on the shotgun. It had not rolled outside and it had not killed anyone in spite of many opportunities that have been presented.
Can you imagine how surprised I was, with all the hype about how dangerous guns are and how they kill people ? Either the killing is by people misusing guns or I'm in possession of the laziest gun in the world. So, now I'm off to check on my spoons, because I hear they make people fat.

While the prosecutor has ruled out race crime charges it would appear there was enough evidence to investigate this path of inquiry from one of the perpetrator's facebook page.

Whether the actual shooting was triggered by hate of whites or just an act of boredon or initiation into a gang is anyone's guess. The court trial will no doubt shed some light on motives. Everything else thus far is just media speculation and opinions.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/23/prosecutor-no-race-motive-in-shooting-of-australian-in-oklahoma/

If I can add, based on some comments, that understanding why crimes occur and some of the social or demographic factors is not to excuse or rationalise murder. Understanding these crimes is must one part of the process in seeking to reduce crime.

However, it is not JUST about understanding why, but doing something effective in response to that information. Sadly, this does not happen too often because the findings may suggest major changes warranted in the way societies function, what values we hold dear at a personal level and what values are prioritised at a policy level. For example: the way children are raised, inequities in access to opportunity etc. It is rarely just one thing but many complex and interrelated factors. And these may differ across nations and cultures.

I can not get myself to think/believe otherwise that the greater percentage of crime is due to insufficient punishment. There will always be those who, in the heat of the moment don't rationalise & then commit a crime or do something that is then seen as a crime by those who don't do anything about curbing crime. In general however, the lack of punishment is the key contributor to crime, courtesy of western Law.

'Whether the actual shooting was triggered by hate of whites or just an act of boredon or initiation into a gang is anyone's guess. '

your post is very reasonable Pelican although the line of killing someone through boredom wears very thin. Today people have computers, sports facilities like never before, skate parks, ipads, mobile phones etc etc. Much local crime is blamed on not having enough to do and yet their is more money and more to do than any time in history.