With the I'll fated carbon tax getting the chop, the ETS will still effectively be a permit to pollute.

I say this because the way a business operates, is that it determines it's costs and expenses then adds a margin to it's product/service in order to make a profit.

So, as carbon credit certificates become scarce, one would assume companies will pay extra to secure their polution permits, then simply pass on the additional costs.

As an alternative, I feel we should be charging the user of energy any tax on carbon, not to generator, as once prices increase to most users, their automatic reaction is to reduce their usage, and this reduction will ultimately reduce carbon emissions.

I say this because either way prices will rise, just as usage will fall, so why the need for yet another tax, especially when we here will have our tax determined by outsiders and sock market traders alike.

Rechtub good morning.
No sense in us clashing again.
I do truly, think you are the wrong bloke to open the batting on this issue.
Current ALP policy will cut the costs, from what they are now to a much lower one.
So very many in the world would pay much more, if asked.
And read todays story [link in your other thread this subject].
Look at the given numbers who it claims want action.
You, now till election day need more voters not less.
You can not plant pumpkin and try to harvest water melons.

Current ALP policy will cut the costs,
Belly, Belly, Belly,
Sorry to disillusion you but I'm afraid there's no such thing. Go back & check on their record by starting yesterday & you'll find nothing to that effect.

Of course the LNP's "Direct Action" plan will cost nothing to anybody, right?

I'm disappointed that Rudd sold the early adoption of an ETS as a measure to help families with living costs rather than a coming into line with the European carbon market due its unexpectedly large current disparity with Australia's carbon price. Many Australians are happier with matching the European effort on contributing to carbon abatement, as poor an effort as that might be.

Of course, Abbott's response was a three word slogan rather than taking the opportunity to sell "Direct Action", making himself look silly again.

Just heard Joe Hockey performing well for the LNP re fringe the benefit change on cars, not that he's got a leg to stand on(*), but looking the goods. That was until he said Australia was hitching itself to the European economy via the ETS, the usual hyperbole he is noted for. he even said the carbon price would rise to $40/tonne if the AUD fell 30% against the euro, alarmist rubbish.

* On one hand he says there is no rorting related to car claims yet, on the other hand, he says the motor vehicle manufacturing industry (which we already keep on life-support)will be ruined by the change. He can't have it both ways. Regarding the documentation impost, returning to keeping a log book for three months is no biggy and won't ruin the industry, as it didn't in the past.

Anyway, given my disappointment in Rudd (see above) I can't blame Joe for pinning his ears back now we are deeply into election campaigning.

Indy being the sporting bloke I am not take the strap to you.
See I truly honestly do not think you can understand.
Every one who understands why it will cost 4 billion dollars, to adopt the policy Howard Turnbull and Nelson shared with Labor knows why business likes the early jump from tax to trading scheme.
See you in another threa

I'm calling an ebb in the tide.

Up to now there has been little more than hallelujahs and choral singing by the media about Kevin.However, in the last 24 hours I detected a change, an as yet small measure of doubt:

-How can he overturn the carbon tax if the ALP's Green allies don't play ball?
-How are the carbon tax reforms going to save us when the ALP has been telling us for the last 2-3 years that the carbon tax hadn't imposed any additional costs, and any talk of such was baseless scaremongering?
-How will he resolve the illegal boaties issues without alienating the ALP left or the ALP right?
-How many of the policy changes he's announced has --the new consultative Kevin--actually discussed with the rest of the party?

Could it be he is not the messiah after-all?

The ETS price has only one way to go.
The European Commission has voted to remove millions of credits from
the market. They are doing this because they believe E6 is too low.

The Australian Treasury is forecasting A$50 to A$71 in future years.
It means, long term, that the European Commission will have control of
a significant part of our economy. We don't get a vote.

Do those on here think that is a good thing ?

Yes SPQR, one can't help but wonder what the process was when labor passed all this legislation they constantly crow about.

Did the party have a say in this, or, was it just Julia and a selected few.

I say this, because if it were in fact the party as a whole, how then did they get it so wrong that it now needs to be repealed by K Rudd.

Is it just Rudd, or has the party miraculously changed it's mind?

Now hers the interesting bit, if it were Julia that made this happen, then she and labor must be slow learners, as it was Rudds arrogance that cost him his position in the first place.

If it was the party as a whole, then apart from being the crowd favorite, what influence can just one man have, because we must remember, we are voting for a PM which we are collectively placing our futures in

Food for thought hey!

Lexi, if the bringing back of Kevin either sees Abbott lift his game, or a better person lead the libs, then we as a nation will be better for it.

As for the polls, I say just wait until the OFFICIAL election campaign begins, as the libs will have equal campaigning dollars to labor.

It's hard to win a fight with one hand tied behind ones back, financially that is.

Personally, I can't wait till it's GAME ON and my bet is that labor will need at least a ten pecent lead in the so called polls to have any chance as there are simply too many stuff ups to defend.

Sorry Lexi, wrong thread.

What is the difference between trading carbon credits as to trading shares. No one is going to own anyone.
Turnbull is the future of the libs. Not the unintelligible rabbott.
Co2 don't exist cos ya can't see it.

Huge difference doog, as unlike shares, whereby they always represent the total capitalized value of a company,these certificates will be reduced in number and, as Long as the demand for energy continues, so to will the demand for these certs, therefore, their value will increase, not decrease, because like it or not, as long as the cost of polluting can be passed on to the consumer, ETS certificates will simply be a permit to pollute.

rectub You best have another go at that, anyone can own carbon credits, it's not confined to the polluters. Electricity demand is on the decrease, It's not necessary to get your power from the grid. Price rises will be a contentious issue.

Belly,
I agree that the Coalition is not perfect, not by a long shot, they have many frustrated Labor voters in their ranks. What I am agreeing to even more is the claim that ALP Governance has not delivered anything since the big Goaf fell into the position by being literally shoved into it as did all others, by ignorant idealists with no concept of planning for the future.
Where are the great, beneficial projects of the past such as the snowy scheme or Lake Argyle ?
Why not work on making the Bradfield scheme a reality ?
They blow vast fortunes on frivolous short-term nonsense whilst totally neglecting the future.
ALP always pounds it's chest for being progressive, what ? progressive regress ? Can anyone here point out a positive long-term benefit ALP infrastructure policy ? Morale is sliding into the pits faster than greased lightning. ALP has not lost the plot, they never had one, their continued existence being entirely due to continued stupidity by too many.
So far as the Coalition is concerned I'd like to say to them stop working towards becoming a mirror image of the ALP.

Where is the evidence that political action will fix a technical problem? National solar schemes have been a farce, making electricity more expensive by 25% margins and making little difference to carbon emissions.

We wont see effective results until effective technology is available. Currently it is not, and until governments realise and accept this fact we will keep suffering from ineffective and economically damaging political pseudo-fixes by self-absorbed pollies on delusional ego-trips.

fester,
Infrastructure must be in brick & mortar. IT should be dealt with what it is, an ever changing phenomenon which can not be looked at as a long-term solution. So, Government should keep it's nose out of it, it does nothing but interfere.
What we need is more useable land by using it smarter not by cutting down more trees. We need a sustainable water supply. Inland Australia offers plenty opportunities for the long-term investor, short-termers butt out. Somewhere along the track we've lost many great visions simply due to being blinded by extremely short-term vision.
The Carbon Tax/ETS are a burden to both man & environment & should be written out of the history pages. To save the environment needs logic not idealism. So far no political party has addressed that. We need many dams i.e. lakes for inland infrastructure & to saturate the artesian basin for good. To build this would not require half as much funding as is required to maintain present inefficiency which has no future.
We need to rid ourselves of the entrenched deadwood in the public service to get a move-on. Pressure the political parties to change senior public servants at the same time as the politicians. Stop sitting back & blaming everyone else. YOU (everybody) do your thing & if you don't know what to do read the internet & enlighten yourself for free. If you can't do that then there's no help for you.

Oops, should mean Internet Technology not IT.

Hi Individual,

I see government as being of great potential for solving problems. Where it gets hampered is when you get egomaniacs who imagine that they have the answers, dont listen to the expert advice and seem oblivious to their glaring failures. I can only wonder at how the many drownings and electrocutions are rationalised.

I can only wonder at how the many drownings and electrocutions are rationalised.
Fester,
I'd imagine quite a few. What i have found in my own little investigations is that some bureaucrats will literally let millions get wasted as long as they can submit nicely, rose-coloured reports to their regulators etc. it doesn't concern them if the place is falling into a heap time & time again as long as no-one higher up is a wake-up to them or is simply just as bad & does nothing either. I have actually called it quits with good old mate because he is one of those people who think the tax will eventually save the planet. I could not stomach such silliness & rather go it by myself.
I have spoken with bureaucrats who openly say they're not going to be around by the time the proverbial hits the fan. All they focus on is getting a huge pension for next to nothing achieved in their work. I get into some situations where these people could literally sacrifice the income for several families just to protect their selfish plans. Everyone of those bureaucrats I speak with is anti Abbott. Does that tell you something ?

Doog, nowhere have I mentioned that these certificates can only be held by poluters, however, all poluters need to purchase them to pollute, therefore, as they decline in number, the price is most likely to increase.

Imdi
Another thing that puzzles me is why Rudd has chose to hold his great ideas from the rest of his party while Gillard was at the helm.

Surely if a party is to be functional it must put all options on the table.

It appears this was not the case with the Gillard led government, at least not from Rudds corner anyway, as in just three weeks he has scrapped the carbon tax and found a solution (yet to be tested) for the illegals.

It would suggest that either he was asleep at the wheel previously, or, they were his ideas and nobody else was going to steel his thunder.

Either way, it's certainly not displaying the characteristics of a well functioning team, strong leader or not.

The ideas were put together long ago, but parliament was still sitting.
We did not need another Malaysia, no vote. Big polluters will demise, or get with the program. It's not compulsory to pollute. Renewables are having a big effect on output now. And that is not going to stop. So the bigger the price the better off we will be. High carbon price will hasten the installation of clean energy.
So the sky is not going to fall in as we are led to believe, it will just get cleaner.

So tell me doog, how will higher taxes on carbon force generators to cut their emmisioms, especially considering they can just pass the increases on?

They are cutting their omissions now. People are not using as much power. The higher the price of electricity to generate the less will be used. The govt; sets the price for electricity, All power goes into the same pool, you can't separate renewable and coal power. The current price for power is $ 54.00 / mw .
With so much renewable in the pool coal power has to take the govt; pricing no matter what it costs them to produce it.
Work out the cost of a kWh of power and see how much you are being ripped off.

<High carbon price will hasten the installation of clean energy.>

Quite the opposite I would think. I would like cleaner and cheaper energy as much as anyone, but the technology does not yet exist. So by making fossil fuel more expensive you make the economy weaker, and weaker economies have less ability to solve problems. Pertinently, you might note that renewable research funding has been cut in Australia for this reason.

The price of carbon does not come into the price of power when it is bought. It's supply and demand. If the demand is not there power is cheap. A high demand calls for a higher price.
At the same time the govt; sets an overall price for power no matter what the demand. The power price is set annually, currently 8 cents / kWh. That means when the price of power is above 8c /kWh the retailer loses, and when it's below 8c / kWh the retailer wins.
The currant retail price for power is artificially high, because the retailers are conglomerates. As more retailers come on board the price of power will be less, due to competition. Electricity can retail at 18c / kWh with good margins for retailers as of now.

You can generate coal fired power for less than 8 cents per kwh, and you can provide power continuously. The straights we are in now stem from a lack of new conventional generating capacity. Were renewables capable of delivering, we would not see this happening.

...The currant retail price for power is artificially high, because the retailers are conglomerates. As more retailers come on board the price of power will be less, due to competition. Electricity can retail at 18c / kWh with good margins for retailers as of now

Doog, not that long ago, our power was supplied by Energex, that was it.

Then Peter Beaty said he was going to introduce new players into this monopolized market, to install competition and reduce prices.

Guess what!, we got the competitors but the prices went through the roof.

So how will this be diffent this time?

Also, you said earlier that as generators increase prices, deman will drop, and so too consumption/emmisioms.

So why the need for the tax, as all that is needed is a levy placed on the end user, they will reduce consumption, emissions will reduce and no tax on those who create jobs.

Same result, less hastels.

Energex i think is a distributor. And were being subsidized. You will not have not much luck in QLD until you get deregulated retail electricity.
The price for QLD power for 2013-2014 is .065cents/ kWh off peak and .089 / kWh peak so mark up from there is how much you are being ripped off by. At the moment QLD power is selling for 59.51$ / MW = 1000 kWh. or 5.9c / kWh.
All power in the eastern side of AU and SA are linked and all generated power goes into the same selling pool. Vic is completely Deregulated. NSW is well on the way and QLD is miles behind as usual.
Because you can't distinguish between renewable energy and coal generated power the tax has to be specifically targeted. There is no tax on renewable power, or gas fired power. Only coal power.