Sun Apr 29, 2007:

"ISTANBUL - More than one million people took part in a mass rally here Sunday in support of secularism and democracy amid a tense stand-off between the Islamist-rooted government and the army over presidential elections ...

"Turkey is secular and will remain secular," "Neither Sharia, nor coup d'etat, democratic Turkey," they chanted."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070429/ts_afp/turkeypoliticsvote_070429134050

In light of the rapidly growing Muslim populations in Australia and around the world, and with a view to learning from Turkey's experience, does anyone know what forces are giving sway to an Islamic party in Turkey. Turkey is a largely Muslim population but long ago separated itself from the "regressive" practises of sharia law, etc. So why now is it on the brink of sucumbing to these forces again:

- rising population in non-secular Muslims?
- failure to police radical/sharia ideas?
- rising global anti-West sentiment?

I am thinking, regarding Australia, how to control the radical elements of Muslim culture from taking root here.

Let everyone hope that Turkey is able to stay secular. If Turkey remains secular there is a good chance it can lead the Islamic world out of their backwardness and poverty. If Turkey becomes non-secular and returns to Sharia Law keeping women under black sheets and all of the other “gifts” of Islam we will have another 70 million embittered but devoutly religious Muslims trying to break every window in town.
Turks in Australia have always blended in to our society well and do not practice the “in your face” Islam that people from Lebanon, Pakistan and many of the other muslims do with their white pyjamas, hostile expression and straggly beards and their women walking behind often under a black sheet.

Whether you're christian or secular, from the group that believes Islam is a threat to the west, or the group that feels it's being exaggerated, I suspect one thing we can all agree on, is a hope that Turkey can remain secular.

I mightn't buy into the argument that Islam could have a crack at taking over the west, but no civilised person can condone some of the acts that take place in the more repressive muslim regimes. Nor can I see any examples of religion and state combining in a positive manner.

I wish the Turkish secularists well, and hope they can demonstrate how much more effective their current system of government is when compared to the religious alternative.

I might be mistaken, but hasnt the army removed the govenment several times in the last century. And when they do so, they bring on new elections? The army in Turkey seems to be a relatively benign force (dont want to rule in their own right), that are willing to act to remove a government that doesnt appear to be representing the majority of people (as a democracy should). I might be way off track here, but that's my understanding of the situation. Of course, we are only getting news reports too, which are likely to be loving the democracy vs theocracy element of this issue, and be contributing to blowing it out of proportion.

I generally agree with the comment about Turks in Australia. The same thing can be said for Afghans in Australia too - have been here for many years and cause little fuss. But remember, the first terrorist attack on Australian soil was committed by a Turk in about 1914 (maybe 1915??) at Broken Hill on a Picnic Day...

Mark Steyn, April 17, 2007:

"only Michel Gurfinkiel’s recent analysis in Commentary got to the underlying reality: Since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, there have been two Turkeys: the Turks of Rumelia, or European Turkey, and the Turks of Anatolia, or Asia Minor. Kemal Ataturk was from Rumelia and so were most of his supporters, and they imposed the modern Turkish Republic on a somewhat relunctant Anatolia, where Ataturk’s distinction between the state and Islam was never accepted. In its 80-year history, the population has increased from 14 million in 1923 to 70 million today, but the vast bulk of that population growth has come from Anatolia, whose population has migrated from the rural hinterland to overwhelm the once solidly Kemalist cities. Ataturk’s modern secular Turkey has simply been outbred by fiercely Islamic Turkey. That’s a lesson in demography from an all-Muslim sample: no pasty white blokes were involved. So the fact that Muslim fertility is declining in Tunisia is no consolation: all that will do, as in Turkey, is remove moderate Muslims from the equation too early in the game."

http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/206/

Michel Gurfinkiel's article Is Turkey Lost?, March 1, 2007:

http://michelgurfinkiel.com/articles/106-Geopolitics-Is-Turkey-Lost.html

From a cursory glance at the article, it looks like both demographics and a failure to police "regressive" Muslims are both involved. They've gone soft on both fronts?

Yes the military has intervened a few times over the years, but unless it proactively manages the regressive elements of the population then, my guess is, it can't hold back the demographic tide forever.

So the lessons for Australia are that only a tough proactive approach will keep us secular. Control both the fundamentalist Muslim population and the regressive ideas within it.

The mass marches are simply the 'symptom'.... the underlying disease is explained in Steynes article and those referred to by OnLine_East.

The demographics are not limited to Turkey, look at
a) The fertility rates/population increase in many European countries.
b) The demographically segmented increase.
c) Note therefrom, that most of the 'INcrease' is coming from the migrant communities.

If Turkey's experience tells us ANYTHING it tells us that there will always be a struggle by Islamists within a population to overcome and over-rule the moderate/secularists.

That simple fact has been at the root of my many 'Anti Islamic' posts.

If it(the spiritual/demographic situation) is deniable.. then let the deniers deny it, with facts.
Let them spread before us fact after fact which contradicts this assertion by Steyne and Gurfinkiel.

As Scripture says "Come..let us reason together". Lets have less 'opinion' and more 'fact'.

Most of my critics appear to take little regard to facts like these.
All they see is a ranting Bible Basher. (or is it a broken record? :)

Time is a great revealer. Turkey is revealing. All we need now is a few hithertoo skeptics with 'eyes which can see'.