Sun Apr 29, 2007:

"ISTANBUL - More than one million people took part in a mass rally here Sunday in support of secularism and democracy amid a tense stand-off between the Islamist-rooted government and the army over presidential elections ...

"Turkey is secular and will remain secular," "Neither Sharia, nor coup d'etat, democratic Turkey," they chanted."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070429/ts_afp/turkeypoliticsvote_070429134050

In light of the rapidly growing Muslim populations in Australia and around the world, and with a view to learning from Turkey's experience, does anyone know what forces are giving sway to an Islamic party in Turkey. Turkey is a largely Muslim population but long ago separated itself from the "regressive" practises of sharia law, etc. So why now is it on the brink of sucumbing to these forces again:

- rising population in non-secular Muslims?
- failure to police radical/sharia ideas?
- rising global anti-West sentiment?

I am thinking, regarding Australia, how to control the radical elements of Muslim culture from taking root here.

Let everyone hope that Turkey is able to stay secular. If Turkey remains secular there is a good chance it can lead the Islamic world out of their backwardness and poverty. If Turkey becomes non-secular and returns to Sharia Law keeping women under black sheets and all of the other “gifts” of Islam we will have another 70 million embittered but devoutly religious Muslims trying to break every window in town.
Turks in Australia have always blended in to our society well and do not practice the “in your face” Islam that people from Lebanon, Pakistan and many of the other muslims do with their white pyjamas, hostile expression and straggly beards and their women walking behind often under a black sheet.

Whether you're christian or secular, from the group that believes Islam is a threat to the west, or the group that feels it's being exaggerated, I suspect one thing we can all agree on, is a hope that Turkey can remain secular.

I mightn't buy into the argument that Islam could have a crack at taking over the west, but no civilised person can condone some of the acts that take place in the more repressive muslim regimes. Nor can I see any examples of religion and state combining in a positive manner.

I wish the Turkish secularists well, and hope they can demonstrate how much more effective their current system of government is when compared to the religious alternative.

I might be mistaken, but hasnt the army removed the govenment several times in the last century. And when they do so, they bring on new elections? The army in Turkey seems to be a relatively benign force (dont want to rule in their own right), that are willing to act to remove a government that doesnt appear to be representing the majority of people (as a democracy should). I might be way off track here, but that's my understanding of the situation. Of course, we are only getting news reports too, which are likely to be loving the democracy vs theocracy element of this issue, and be contributing to blowing it out of proportion.

I generally agree with the comment about Turks in Australia. The same thing can be said for Afghans in Australia too - have been here for many years and cause little fuss. But remember, the first terrorist attack on Australian soil was committed by a Turk in about 1914 (maybe 1915??) at Broken Hill on a Picnic Day...

Mark Steyn, April 17, 2007:

"only Michel Gurfinkiel’s recent analysis in Commentary got to the underlying reality: Since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, there have been two Turkeys: the Turks of Rumelia, or European Turkey, and the Turks of Anatolia, or Asia Minor. Kemal Ataturk was from Rumelia and so were most of his supporters, and they imposed the modern Turkish Republic on a somewhat relunctant Anatolia, where Ataturk’s distinction between the state and Islam was never accepted. In its 80-year history, the population has increased from 14 million in 1923 to 70 million today, but the vast bulk of that population growth has come from Anatolia, whose population has migrated from the rural hinterland to overwhelm the once solidly Kemalist cities. Ataturk’s modern secular Turkey has simply been outbred by fiercely Islamic Turkey. That’s a lesson in demography from an all-Muslim sample: no pasty white blokes were involved. So the fact that Muslim fertility is declining in Tunisia is no consolation: all that will do, as in Turkey, is remove moderate Muslims from the equation too early in the game."

http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/206/

Michel Gurfinkiel's article Is Turkey Lost?, March 1, 2007:

http://michelgurfinkiel.com/articles/106-Geopolitics-Is-Turkey-Lost.html

From a cursory glance at the article, it looks like both demographics and a failure to police "regressive" Muslims are both involved. They've gone soft on both fronts?

Yes the military has intervened a few times over the years, but unless it proactively manages the regressive elements of the population then, my guess is, it can't hold back the demographic tide forever.

So the lessons for Australia are that only a tough proactive approach will keep us secular. Control both the fundamentalist Muslim population and the regressive ideas within it.

The mass marches are simply the 'symptom'.... the underlying disease is explained in Steynes article and those referred to by OnLine_East.

The demographics are not limited to Turkey, look at
a) The fertility rates/population increase in many European countries.
b) The demographically segmented increase.
c) Note therefrom, that most of the 'INcrease' is coming from the migrant communities.

If Turkey's experience tells us ANYTHING it tells us that there will always be a struggle by Islamists within a population to overcome and over-rule the moderate/secularists.

That simple fact has been at the root of my many 'Anti Islamic' posts.

If it(the spiritual/demographic situation) is deniable.. then let the deniers deny it, with facts.
Let them spread before us fact after fact which contradicts this assertion by Steyne and Gurfinkiel.

As Scripture says "Come..let us reason together". Lets have less 'opinion' and more 'fact'.

Most of my critics appear to take little regard to facts like these.
All they see is a ranting Bible Basher. (or is it a broken record? :)

Time is a great revealer. Turkey is revealing. All we need now is a few hithertoo skeptics with 'eyes which can see'.

My reading of the situation (sorry, Boaz, I can still only offer opinions; I shall leave "facts" to that thoroughly objective observer, Mark Steyn) is that Turkey has for the past hundred years been at the leading edge of Muslim enlightenment.

Long may they continue to be so. Let us also hope that Germany, who for years has grown rich on the backs of the Turkish Gastarbeiter, step back from their opposition to Turkey's inclusion in the EU.

I worked in Istanbul briefly back in the late eighties, and met some of the wisest and most gentle business managers of any country I have ever worked in. Their religion was worn lightly, but sincerely - a little like our Ahmed Fahour http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/04/29/1177787974554.html - and their level of honesty and integrity in business dealings would put the average Australian company to shame.

As I understand it, the country is 99% Muslim. Since they are constitutionally secular, this means that you have a million Muslims who believe sufficiently strongly that the state should not involve itself in trying to make them more Muslim, hit the streets to say so.

A sidebar on the numbers. The Turkish armed forces have always been in the vanguard of protecting the secular constitution. I guess it helps in situations like this to have them on your side...

Dear Pericles, I absolutely recommend a careful reading of the article by Gurfinkiel.

If you went to Gaza and you met this man(below), perhaps you might have a different opinion of the emerging Islamism in Turkey.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178020746583&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Sheik Ahmad Bahr, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, declared during a Friday sermon at a Sudan mosque that America and Israel will be annihilated and called upon Allah to kill Jews and Americans "to the very Last One". Following are excerpts from the sermon that took place last month, courtesy of MEMRI.

Ahmad Bahr began: "You will be victorious" on the face of this planet. You are the masters of the world on the face of this planet. Yes, [the Koran says that] "you will be victorious," but only "if you are believers." Allah willing, "you will be victorious," while America and Israel will be annihilated. I guarantee you that the power of belief and faith is greater than the power of America and Israel. They are cowards, who are eager for life, while we are eager for death for the sake of Allah. That is why America's nose was rubbed in the mud in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Somalia, and everywhere.

Quran 9:30 "Jews believe Uzair is son of Allah, Christians believe the Messiah is Son of Allah, MAY ALLAH DESTROY THEM, they are deluded"

BAHR's final prayer.

"Oh Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them all, down to the very last one. Oh Allah, show them a day of darkness. Oh Allah, who sent down His Book, the mover of the clouds, who defeated the enemies of the Prophet defeat the Jews and the Americans, and bring us victory over them."

Do any of us besides me see the 'connection' between the Quran and this mans prayer?

I can clearly show the error of the KKK and any racist "Christian" group from Scripture, I cannot find 'theological' fault in terms of Islam with that man's prayer. It is entirely consistent with the Quran.

Boaz, I have cautioned you before about relying upon sources that might be, shall we say, not entirely impartial.

On the topic of Islam, I'd rate the Jerusalem Post as coming into this category.

The reality is that you can always find articles on the Internet to support your point of view, whatever that might be. And in this case, Steyn and Gurfinkiel both have axes to grind. As indeed do you. So merely quoting somebody else's opinion, however prettily expressed, does not actually move your argument forward.

>>If you went to Gaza and you met this man(below), perhaps you might have a different opinion of the emerging Islamism in Turkey<<

The topic here is still Turkey, Boaz. Not the unconnected ravings of a "top Hamas official" in a Sudan mosque.

And for the record, as I pointed out earlier, Turkey is 99% Islamic already.

It isn't "emerging", Boaz. It is fully "emerged". And a million of those Islamic people see fit to take to the streets to protest against de-secularization. Supported by the military.

What are the ravings of one nutter in a mosque compared to that open air demonstration in a major city?

Boaz,

Your right Boazy. There's one billion Muslims in the world and we're all brain washed and preprogrammed to want to take over the world. Right now the World Wide Muslim Conspiracy Society is working on a chemical formulae which will change Christians into Muslims when ever there is a full moon. We're coming to get you Boazy. We're coming to get you. Turkey being a part of NATO and an Ally of the US and Israel is just a clever trick on our part. Soon we'll have you facing Mecca when you pray and giving up on pork products.

Boazy, don't you ever get tired of all your racist diatribes?

" I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. " - Mohandas Gandhi

Peppy and Pericles.. its time for a Pep talk.(nice aliteration:)

When I say 'emerging' re Turkey, I'm referring to the contentious struggle between the Anatolians and Rumelians. (refer Garfinkeil)

His account has the ring of truth about it, and he is not actually grinding any particular axe from what I can see.

So, while Turkey may be '99% Islamic' already, the more important question is 'which kind' of Islam? From what I read, there is a struggle between the more radical Islamists of Anatolia who feel aggrieved over the Rumelian ascendency, and who now, through demographic expansion and increased population are seeking to alter that.

So, in answer to the question 'why now' re the large rally, I suggest (as Gurfinkiel does) it might be connected to that historical idealogical and ethnic dichotomy and the sense by one side that 'things are about to change forever' in a way which will not suit them.

Peppy... the Muslim conspiracy is real, and true, but it resides in the minds of the likes of Al Qaeda and the Muslim brotherhood and their ilk. If they came to your door and said "Peppy, the brothers need your support for the cause" and you knew that they had already killed a number who refused to support them... would your 'moderateness' give you the strength to deny them?

If they did do that, you might need to quickly consider the Islamic punishment for 'apostacy' as I'm sure that is how they would describe anyone who did not do their bidding mate.
cheers.

Boazy,

I have the perfect solution. Let's get all the extremist Christians and all the extremist Muslims and KILL EM ALL. Think of the beauty of it. Peace and harmony for thousands of years. Of coarse you'd be dead, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to pay for peace and quiet.

Peppy.. I have a better idea..

Lets put all the Shia and Sunni together, armed to the teeth and let them rip each other to pieces.
Then, we can do the same for (just for equalities sake) the Catholic IRA and the Protestant UDA.

I'm not sure why you describe me as a Christian 'extremist'.. I don't own a gun, nor accumulate explosives, not call for the death of Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhists or Atheists. I'm very protective of my freedom though.

My only plea is to consider Christ as Lord and Saviour. My 'bark' is loud here, but my 'bite' is gentle:) unless of course we happen to be sparring in a gym. But as Mohammad (one of our gym members) knows, when I spar with him, I'm very gentle and avoid whacking him in the noggin to the point where he said "You CAN hit me you know"....
Its not 'Muslims' I attack, it is the religion which deludes them into a false sense of eternal safety.

You are welcome to describe me as a 'fundamentalist' in the sense of believing the Scriptures, and that Christ died and rose from the dead.
But you won't find me dancing with joy on the grave of a murdered homosexual as "Pastor" Fred Phelps did.

"Extremists" are generally characterized by wrong understandings of the Bible and a propensity to violent aggression against people because of their race.

One such example is the 'HammerSkins' of USA.. a group I only came to know of yesterday while doing some research. The list is endless, Aryan Nation, KKK, etc etc.

The problem is, I cannot find any Biblical justification for their views. On the contrary, I oppose their views on Biblical grounds.

The emerging 'Islamist' group in Turkey will be worthy of close monitoring. I think Gurfinkiel has some valid assessments.
Remember Pep... there are 13 men in Melbourne and 11 in Sydney on Trial for UKNOWHAT. I've seen their faces in person. No comment further.

Boaz,

In all fairness I don't think you are a Christo extremist but just an evangelist with anti Islam extremism. You are so obsessed with Islamist radicalism that you are turning on everything with Islam any it.

See? I think I am reasonable guy and can defend your right to believe in what you believe in. Thanks for the dinner invite but I can't afford a food taster :)

Peace,

Boazy,

Sorry if I have confused you. Yes, I do consider you to be an extremist but I never meant to imply that you're a Christian, at least, not a Real Christian. More of a Pretend Christian.

Some of my best friends are very religious Christians who attend Church regularly and none of them are so full of hatred and anger as you are. They try to improve their own lives and be a good example to others, you on the other hand are too busy telling everyone else how bad they are. Sorry that none of us meet the high standards that you yourself don't follow.

How about we start a new Topic and ask everyone else what qualities they think a Real Christian should possess and let's see how many say, "Christians should go on Blog sites and rant and rave about how evil their fellow man is?"

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. - Mohandas Gandhi