Joe, each society has its own properties and structures that emerge from the properties of the cultural and environmental factors that form them, just as halite has different properties to calcite.

The culture is what determines the actual structure and it is very dependent on the initial seed around which it forms, as well as the underlying properties of the population that is the "solution" from which it forms, just as a crystal is dependent on the properties of the solution that produce it.

What can I predict? I can predict that Western efforts to break Islamic cultural hegemony will be futile. I can predict that Islamic states which have a lot of interaction with other cultures will gradually assimilate them and that the structures of both societies will change to gradually become more western, with a transition phase that looks like Indonesia.

I can predict that as Western states become more culturally diverse they will fragment into interspersed layers which have very little interaction with each other. I can predict that as the amount of energy available to the west decreases, the cultural influence will weaken and the layers that make up society will become more separated and that these will create space for individual freedom (anarchy, if you like) that will produce the seeds of new cultures. I know that as population declines the structure of society will erode, just as a crystal in solution will erode if the concentration drops.

That's just off the top of my head based on an understanding of basic clay mineralogy. There is a lot more that could be said, but that's not bad. Real understanding would require a knowledge of the actual kinetics of social interactions and how the cultural influences and emerges from them. Sorry, but that might have to wait for a few years. As you say, it needs work, but it looks promising.

What can you predict from your model? Is it complete?

Joe (Loudmouth)

You asked "do I support human rights for women in Afghanistan, or do I support the 'cultural' rights of men in Afghanistan to oppress and suppress 'their' women, in a time-honoured way, no matter how reactionary and backward that may seem to unsophisticated outside observers?"

When we start asking if it is right to support the oppression of a group of people we are asking the wrong question. The best societies from an individual's point of view, are those where people have the power to make choices and have freedom of movement and association.

For those who feel they will experience a loss of power over, in this case, women is like saying that a slave has to respect the right of their masters and become a willing partner in their oppression.

My main point is that Islam, like Christianity will evolve and these societies will develop and change to see women as equal and worthy human beings. Sometimes I think that when these matters are pushed by outsiders it sets back the clock because then events become a matter of pride and sovereignty rather than about human rights

Hi Antiseptic,

I suspect that you are aware of the limitations of your metaphor - stretching it too far really does take you down unwelcome pathways. There's nothing 'natural' about culture - in fact, culture is usually defined explicitly in opposition to nature.

I fervently hope that your 'layered society' model does not come about - threats of it seem to be wracking European societies at the moment, in Britain, Sweden, France, and partly as the stresses and strains of flagging economies drive people out of work, and certain groups feel particularly aggrieved at that - but I can't see European societies putting up with that for too much longer.

The rule of law, one law for all, equality of men and women, and other principles will probably have to be made more explicit, that's true, but I can't see any European country giving way to Shari'a, for example, not even for sectional interests.

European governments may be smug about their coherence and sovereignty, but I don't think the populations there will tolerate the fragmentation of their countries. It could get quite messy.

Hi Pelican,

So how has the 'evolution of Muslim society' gone so far, over the last 1400 years ? The Book is fixed, it's seen as the unchangeable Word of Allah, so how can such systems evolve ? Is there any sign of it happening yet ?

Maybe, as conservative ideas and practices continually come up against more progressive images and practices in the media, greater numbers of Muslims will break away and - at the risk of their execution and murder - cast off their religion altogether, to form a growing secular, democratic population. But they will certainly not have it easy - witness Syria.

So abandonment, rather than evolution, Pelican :)

Cheers,

Joe

Joe
There has already been improvements for women in many Islamic countries and in parts of Asia. Countries like Malaysia, Burma, Turkey, India where there are still problems but quality of life for women has improved. In India women and men are mobilising on the issue of rape. People are saying we are fed up with this monstrous and oppressive attitude toward women.

Even in Iran women are making small statements in relation to dress codes and there are small inroads such as the woman in Saudi Arabia who drove a car. Yes there is still a way to go.

Christianity went from oppressing, killing and pillaging to a more civilised dogma. Islam will eventually do the same. The question is what is the best method?

Intervention may or may not be the answer depending on a number of factors. War and killing innocent civilians is not the way to endear a nation to a 'civilised' way of life.

Sorry anti but it is my view what happens to any one in any country that disturbs us is fair game.
And very much every ones business.
Humanity is increasingly being drawn towards being one,we will not see it but it will come.
And even if as a result of a war we may emerge better for it.
Lets turn it on its head, given the chance to see how our women live would Afghanistan,s women want to come here?

Pelican,

<<There has already been improvements for women in many Islamic countries and in parts of Asia>>
Turkey is in reverse
Egypt,under the Muslim brotherhood, is in reverse
Iran (there latest edict is to outlaw dogs in public) is in reverse
Syria, no matter who wins, is likely to shift into reverse gear.

The most identifiable trend hasn’t been the liberalization of/in Islamic countries, but the Islamization of suburbs/district’s in Western cities such as Paris, Sydney, Amsterdam etc!