Thanks, Phillip, that's the sort of thing I was getting at.

Banjo,

No, now that the US and others are in Afghanistan battling with the Taliban and, unavoidably, boosting the rights of women and thereby directly confronting the injustices built into Afghan culture, what might happen to those women if the Coalition pulls out ? No, I think that once they have started, they have to stay the course and protect - and boost even further - the rights of women.

Antiseptic,

Every metaphor has its limits, I suppose, some more than others. With respect, your comparison of cultural practices with the growth of crystals, or the structure of clay particles, doesn't say much worthwhile.

Cultural practices, at least from a Marxist perspective, are not 'natural' processes, but the products of differential power relations within a society, which in turn are derived largely from an economic base. Hence, most peasant societies have similar attitudes to the rights of women, and the need for male power centring on their property rights: for that reason alone, it could be a very long struggle in Afghanistan to protect the rights of women, with rural society there dominated by the conservative reactionaries, and a vibrant urban economy and culture being the main hope for women and their liberation.

Or has that become a term to be shunned ? US bad, therefore Taliban sort-of-good ? Therefore Afghan women's rights and their liberation - at least in Afghanistan, but not in Balmain or Carlton - sort-of-bad ?

Sorry, I can't keep up with the Left these days :(

Cheers,

Joe

Joe, I say that human social organisation is every bit as "natural" as chemistry. The particular form it takes depends on the conditions it forms under, with some individual usually forming a nucleus around which the rest condense and form bonds that create the structure, each trying to fit in and balance the social forces they experience.

The particular form is dependent on the individual or small group that provides the seed and growth is dependent on the amount of energy in the environment, as well as the density of the population in its immediate environment.

I think it does tell us a lot about the likely behaviour of a society, because we already know a lot about material properties.

The socio-economic factors depend on the structure, not the other way around and the structure defines how individuals interact, as well as how the society as a whole interacts with the rest of the world. The structure only changes when there is a change of the conditions that it is a response to and individuals rearrange their interactions in response to the changes in social force that occur due to the change in conditions. The change in conditions is caused by energy availability or population density, or the introduction of a new population with some different properties that causes existing structures to change to absorb them.

It's pretty robust, I think. If true, it means that we can build a society in the same way we grow crystals to suit our purposes.

Joe,
I would like to see the gains the girls made continue also, but the Yanks have said they will pull out next year. They have knocked hell out of the Taliban and killed Bin Laden, and along the way some womens rights have been improved. But the cost of continuing the troops there is high. Sure they can continue to knock off the Taliban/AQ bigwigs with drones but ground troops are still needed to clean up.

The Taliban still have some influence though, as our diggers can attest to, so will the Afghan forces be enough to maintain the Status Quo or will the Taliban regain more influence. The Afghan government doesn't appear to keen to improve womens rights.

As I said in the first post, it would be a crying shame if the womens rights went backward.

Any ideas as to how the gains can be assured

Antiseptic,

Well no - metaphors have limits when you are trying to compare something with societies, some much more than others. And it can be pointless, even dangerous, to stretch them too far.

After all, are you suggesting that if we immersed people in pure water, in time they would dissolve ? Or if you stand each of us in some sort of solution, we'll grow bigger, but in different ways ? Are some societies prone to form crystals like salt, or more like calcite ? Or copper sulphate, to draw on my limited memories of secondary school chemistry ? Meaning what in a social context ?

And what can you predict about societies from your model ? Are you suggesting that societies are 'natural', given, and therefore no society should - or can - be changed ? A rather conservative approach, one would think.

Needs work, Antiseptic :)

Best wishes,

Joe

Banjo, it's a waste of time. The West can throw whatever it likes at Afghanistan but it's no better than pushing dust around to keep the floor clean. As soon as you stop the dust settles back down and all is as before, but you're tired from all the work.

Regrettably there is no money in "the rights of women" it is and was and always will be about big business, oil and America protecting there puppet ruler.