Belly,
I disagree with both you and Prax. Labors problems are not ONLY caused by the rats in NSW, but also because of the sheer incompedence of the present incompedence of labor in canberra.

I think it is far too late to do anything right now, but I said to you months ago the sooner there is an election then you can start to rebuild the party with reforms and better candidates.

I hope you and all other grass roots party members make your voices heard and demand drastic change.

As far as Abbott is concerned, we will just have to wait and see how he, and the libs, go. But do not count on his failure to get Labor back in office. Labor needs to change itself.

Dear Banjo

You are correct in claiming the ALP has more than one problem, however my point remains that the rats / maggotts / caucus whatever can't / won't fix whats broken, it needs to be done from grass-roots level. I don't however believe its necessarily 'too late', although given the apparent lack of interest at all levels it might as well be too late. Until or unless that ridiculous caucus disaster gets completely destroyed once and for all however, the ALP will always have a festering sore. Its undoubtedly the main factor in ALP disunity and the single most significant disadvantage it appears destined never to escape

Banjo, and for that matter Prax I am at least as aware as anyone of Labors fate and its faults.
But as you both have seen, in your case Banjo for years, I am not talking policy,s.
Yes BANJO AND PRAX but while the NSW FILTH, its power ceded by power brokers to them!
The HSU/NSW FILTH, are gut wounds the policy,s are in my view often brilliant.
And you both may add to this threads titles, such is the aura around this government, little attention is being paid to the policy,s and lack of them of our incoming government.
I would love to read what is said about this period and the incoming government in 25 years history will be made but not all of it good.
The policy,s of Labor are playing little or no part in this defeat, it is Gillard and her power brokers who have frightened the chooks.

Dear Belly,

Here's another link that may be of interest:

http://newmatilda.com/2013/05/23/just-who-playing-politics-treasury

Probably time we both let it die Lexi.
I needed no link to know that.
And of far more importance the voters, those who with no doubt have turned on us, will never look at that or any other positive for Labor.
It is strange, but vital, that my total support for the ALP and this government does not disappear in my frank honest words.
See at my birth Unions controlled the ALP, only those in my age group or older, will remember the faceless men taunt, the ALP rule, not always ignored but mostly, that to be in Parliament you had to be a union member.
As the big man in 1972 won we , at his hands, had distanced our selves but not much .
Then came Hawk and the accord, Labor had,for a short time controlled the unions.
Rudd was knifed Largely but not only, because Bill Ludwig owner of the QLD union I live for, never wanted to forgive a move Rudd sponsored in that state, to modifie union control.
Put your self in the shoes of those who came to us because of Rudd.
And those who for whatever reason are not one of the 22 percent who are unionists.
Then pop every male, make room for a big pile, who did not ever want Gillard, if honesty and understanding hurts so be it, Labor is unelectable, by its own actions, yet I hope we can limit the damage.
Only a new leader, any new leader highlighting our troubles and damning them, can save us, not the owner of many of them Gillard

As Ludwig did in a sleeping thread I too must waken a sleeping one to highlight a television show.
I here and elsewhere have spoken about todays Labor and made comparison with that of 1972 till 1975.
The achievements and pure joy and earth shattering self mutilation.
It was the first episode of the Withlam years, last night.
Hawk, some time ago talking of my party at the time the big fella took over the party, said words similar to these
*Labor {union controlled]was feeding on its self*
Within the first part we saw Union power very nearly vote a pure left to replace the big fella.
I rest my case, while future episodes will include Murdock turning from our lover to our death mask, if it follows the truth, it will show us, the ALP, loading the press and Liberal guns, as has been the case under GILLARD for them.
worth watching 7.30 ABC 0NE Sunday nights.