First my reasons for thinking/knowing Labor is gone.
It has great difficulty's selling it some times great achievements.
And just refuses to think out side its own ranks.
Knifing Rudd, putting Gillard up, has cost the party dearly.
As has the ACTU decision not to allow the disbanding of the HSU, is a blindingly stupid act!
Union members/Labor voters, needed to see true disgust not ignoreing a horrible betrayal.
I could go on, but while I will work hard and vote for them.
*Total unconcern for opinions other than those hideing the NSW FILTH is going to hurt.
My theme however having established my views is to make it clear no instant fix is in Abbott,s bag.
How will he reduce our carbon footprint?
Will he go ahead with Labors and maybe his own welfare cuts while keeping middle class welfare.
I will get kicked for this, but know most Australians demand an end to boat people how will he stop them?
IR while commitments to not radically change it will he?
Before I am jumped on I am not trying in this thread to say Labor can win.
It will not happen.
IF they had heard Australia, dumped Gillard, picketed the NSW FILTH AT COURT AND HOME, [as they would do if it was a business],and the HSU, maybe.
But I am preparing to pick over the bones of my murdered party, post defeat, hoping and begging for reform that lets rank and file takeover from the rank and vile.

Belly,

You persist in the ideological mantra that the ALP are the bad guys and that the trade unions are the good guys.

When are you going to accept that it is the trade unions that have been buggered by the elite, socialist left and that they have usurped both your beloved unions and also taken over the ALP.

It serves only one purpose for you to try to differentiate between the unions and the ALP and that is the “illusion” that the rank and file still holds sway over their own unions, rubbish.

If that were so you would have no case to make against the ALP. Gillard has had you all for breakfast, you never saw it coming, you can’t accept it now it has happened and all you can do is try to blame other than yourself and your ideological blindness.

We have a government that pretends to protect future generations and yet their actions and policies are not dealt with in today’s circumstances, instead they flick their economic and social destruction onto future generations.

You and your ideological fellow travelers will forever be vilified for not standing up for the rights of our children and grandchildren who will sadly have to pay the price for your incompetence.

I’m sure you will take the view that you are not to blame, that we are getting at you and that you are just an old trade union member, interested only in the benefits of the rank and file.

Sadly, you and your ilk seem to forget that in expunging you own guilt, you are saddling future generations with the price you were never prepared to pay.

A pox on you and your bumbling, incompetent, juvenile, ideological and economically destructive idiots.

May you and yours be consigned to the political wilderness that you so richly deserve

Belly>> As has the ACTU decision not to allow the disbanding of the HSU, is a blindingly stupid act!
Union members/Labor voters, needed to see true disgust not ignoreing a horrible betrayal<<

Belly my china, this afternoon Labor with the Greens and the Independents voted against a private members bill to make union books available for scrutiny by others rather than just the Unions officials.

Voted transparency down….they care nothing for their members.... It is abundantly clear that the union members are there solely to financially support the union representatives and the hierarchy of the political wing. I don’t know what to suggest as the party fills with lawyers and corrupt union officials.

Whatever the reform, if any, it will have to start at branch level. After the defeat all positions at all levels should be up for grabs. It should start with branch elections, the President -Senior Vice President - Junior Vice President - Treasurer-Assistant Treasurer and Secretary.

Then a vote on the state team and then the National team. The few rotten apples have spoiled the lot. There are many who knew about all of the self-serving revelations, but did nothing…. they all should go and just start over again, this time without factions Czars.

Spindoc>> bumbling, incompetent, juvenile, ideological and economically destructive idiots.<<

Yeah, that pretty much covers it.

You forgot sickening, spindoc. Otherwise spot on!

And get this:
"I could go on, but while I will work hard and vote for them"

The fool would vote for Pol Pot if he was an ALP member.
Scary people like this exist!

Dear Belly,

The following link may help put things into
some perspective for you:

http://www.newmatilda.com/2013/05/14/swan-delivers-fails-sell

Voters will be able to decide who they want running this
country of ours and representing us on the world stage
come September.

Which leader has the right mentality and character/suitability
as not only party leader but also MP to be our PM and determine
the direction our country should go.

It will be an interesting few months especially the pending
litigation against Mr Abbott which he has to face
in court in June. Interesting to see what falls out of the
tree when its shaken.

Lexi>> Mr Abbott which he has to face in court in June. Interesting to see what falls out of the
tree when its shaken.<<

Lexi, it doesn’t matter if Abbott is there or not…as long as his replacement is not Hockey or Turnbull, I don’t care.

Even though Labor has focused on personalities, this election will still go to the coalition on a few critical domestic policies such as boarder protection and the repeal of the carbon tax.

Dear SOG,

Good Luck with that.
And be careful what you wish for.

You may just get the same shock that
Quuenslanders and Victorians are going
through currently. Where they now regret
what they did and how. But its too late babe.

Lexi my sweet, you are reading from the wrong book. That New Matilda lot will lead you astray with bull dung every time.

Queenslanders are growing more happy with Newman & co every day. Yes the cunning rats in Canberra have laid a few traps for them, just as this budget is entirely aimed at damaging the new government when it comes in later this year, but they are on top of it, & growing in approval daily.

With in a few months of the election the truth of how bad it is will surface, & yes the stuff will hit the fan. I just hope there is enough money to continue with health care as we now have it, but I'm not holding my breath even on that one.

Belly you are right, there are no miracle workers standing in the wings, but a genuine effort should help.

From what I can see, I don't think Gillard, & Swan have done anything in the last 6 months that was not specifically aimed at doing us long term damage.

Most of the stupidity will have to be dropped, causing much bad will, if we are to get out of the looming mess. I just hope Abbott has the guts to do it, before it's too late.

Please don't worry yourself about carbon dioxide. By the election, even the Poms will have accepted the fact that the game is up.

Lexi>> You may just get the same shock that
Quuenslanders and Victorians are going
through currently. Where they now regret
what they did and how. But its too late babe.<<

Lexi, I regret Liberals in NSW, but we couldn't keep the likes of Obeid and Macdonald in power...they are corrupt

OFarrell and Hartcher are suspected of corruption by myself, but I do know they are liars.

Lexi - Voters will be able to decide who they want running this
country of ours and representing us on the world stage
come September.

I shudder when I see that red-headed witch big-noting herself anywhere, but particularly overseas. Foreigners must have a real chuckle at the mentality of sheeple stupid enough to allow the Woodpecker to represent them. One could go on about her dress sense but that wouldn't be correct, the silly bitch doesn't have any !! Mind you thats not the only thing she doesn't have ........

As for the RAbbott, I fail to think of anyone more suited to trashing what precious little respect Australia still has internationally after JooLIAR had her go than that budgie-smuggling creep. I'm keeping my fingers crossed in hope that even if the court system doesn't sort him out, karma will decide its time to step in.

Sure we are not electing miracle workers, but why FFS does it happen that whatever we vote for, we invariably end up with a mob of bloodsucking parasites ?? what was that old saying about a drovers dog ?? ... I for one would definitely prefer to be represented by a mangy old hound than either the red-headed witch or the RAbbott. Those beasts don't need to be taught respect for those who feed them, they don't stab their mates in the back, they keep unwelcome intruders out & they don't tell lies (not even when their lips are moving)

Belly my old mate, I will post here, but anything I say will come a distant second to the what spindoc has said, because I doubt anyone could have put it any better than he/she.

Just a few points, your unconditional support of K Rudd is amazing, especially given it is he who almost single handedly removed the mechanism we had in place that DID PROTECT OUR BORDERS.

Not only that, but he also oversaw and over ruled industry experts in the electrical field, an arrogant stance that without doubt led to the loss of young lives.

But I guess your support for him pretty much sums up the way you lot think, as it's just like the poor state of our economy that you have denied for years, as to you, to be great, only means being better than the rest, regardless of who's in the race.

So go off and support your scelitale remains of a party, but do remember, the definition of insanity, is to do the same thing over and expect a different result.

Raw Mustard nothing hot in you insulting post, no under standing either.
SPIN doc, stop it it tickles

I love the ALP and most of the Union movement.
Had you understood that,or even part of it, you could see why I demand better of both.
Lexi, good morning, your link is to a place as unaware of reality as Murdocks COMIC BOOK PRESS.
The truth, unshakable! is that Labor, for that matter Liberals too, ,Must not hear only the voice of those already committed to them.
Look for evidence my thoughts have value in these groups, swinging voters/those who came to Labor because of Rudd/do not ignore the group of good folk who are in shock at the mess NSW is, at the Unionists/party members who look there and at Rudd,s fate, there is our fate.
But, as my future posts here will say, Labors faults/inability to confront them, is assuring us a mediocre at best Liberal government is coming.
And I think some are putting high expectations, impossible tasks on their shoulders.

I need to put meat on the bone in regard to SPINdoc and raw mustard, no understand it leads to more insults, but is walking away an answer?
ANYONE! even , yes true, raw mustard, who reads others posts before flaming!
Knows by my history, I am fighting with every thing I have, to hold the union heads who saw to Rudds knifing,* without them* it could not have taken place!
Thread after thread *condemning Union control* of *the ALP*
SO WHY HAS LIBERAL PARTY PTY LTD spindoc used what he knows are mineralogical inexactitudes?,
Because it works! it is the very back bone of LIBERAL POLICY,S LIES!
So judge me if you must but it is true, we are not electing a sound government, while Abbott leads it.
And the task is no push over some tasks are confronting and difficult.

Lexi, my impression is that very few are regretting turfing Labor out. Maybe wishing the LNP had a smaller majority to keep them more aware of the need to be accountable. I'm certainly wishing that they had chosen to be different to Labor in terms of accountability and jobs for mates, initial impressions are thats not the case.

Tossing out Labor was an absolutely necessary thing, we have replaced them with a group who could have done a lot better and chose not to do so but still no where as bad as what went before.

On the upside at least now when the government is attacking workers the unions will say something. Having been through some of the Labor attacks on workers and seen the results of the conflict of interest held by most union officials that alone is a good reason not to have Labor governmnents.

R0bert

A red Ineptocracy or a blue Ineptocracy what’s the difference, what’s to save, what is there to look forward too?

“Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

It is a pointless conversation between red and blue sheeple producing exactly the same result. Both sides are pissing on the tyre of reality, just using a different leg.

Talk about it as much as you like. If you don’t make it or do it, it will never be done or exist.

We need more autonomy, more individual responsibility and less Ineptocractic control. This will mean a lot of non-productive parasites will not take as much but a nation we will be better off.

I still say hang them in September!

Dear Belly,

You wrote: "Knifing Rudd, putting Gillard up, has cost the party dearly."

Rudd was not knifed. He was displaced by an orderly procedure under the Westminster system. The people do not vote for a prime minister. Party members do not select the person who leads their party in parliament.

I think the system is not a good system, and the executive branch of government should be completely separate from the legislative branch. However, that is the system we have, and Rudd was removed from leadership by a procedure following that system. He was not knifed.

David f.,

I think you're being a little pedantic and hard on Belly there.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/metaphor

Dear Belly,

A contest between Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott
is a poor way to try to win government and when
Labor has the likes of the big media, big business,
and big money lined up against them then it is hard
to get any message out.

To me Tony Abbott represent regressive ideas, imparted
by divisive scare tactics. Now he's attempting to
change his image. However, he's done nothing to establish his or
his party's economic credentials. He seems content to
coast on the public perception that the Coalition is more
competent at economic management than Labor.

As economic experts have pointed out to us:

The Coalition has had the fortune to hold office in good
economic times, especially from 1996 to 2007 when the
Howard government enjoyed the dividends of the Hawke-Keating
economic reforms and when the world economy was enjoying a
long speculative-driven boom. Yet the Howard government
neglected our asset base. If the Howard Cabinet had been the
board of a publicly listed company, the shareholders would
have thrown them out for weakening the company's asset base.
It's very easy to leave money in the kitty when very little
has been done over 11 years of the Howard Administration.

Take a look at what Jeff Kennett did in Victoria and what
NSW is like today.

Anyway, it shall be interesting what sort of a conversation
we'll be having in a few years time. And what our economy
will look like then and what sort of long-term planning
will be put in place. Whether repealing the carbon
price will come at a cost to the budget. Whether there will
be an end of the "Age of Entitlement," and whether as Joe
Hockey tries to tell us - the government will no longer be
able to afford the variety of middle-class welfare.

I imagine that all decision will be made in a very different
frame, especially if Joe Hockey is treasurer.

Interesting times ahead.

Dear Poirot,

I know Rudd was not literally knifed, and I know that Belly is not part of anyone's digestive tract. Nevertheless, the word 'knifed' implies there is something wrong in the way that Rudd was displaced. He was displaced by those who knew him well and had to work with him. If I had any say in the matter I would have got rid of him also. Outside of his reputation for mistreating subordinates and micromanaging he apparently lacked awareness of the environmental consequences of the 'big' Australia he advocated. He also originated the chaplaincy program in Queensland which Howard made a national affair. I will happily give preference to Labor over the Libs if Gillard still heads the party come election. It would be difficult for me to give such a preference if Rudd heads the party.

Well, David, I think it depends on one's point of view.

I'm supposing Mr Rudd considers it a "knifing"...after having successfully led Labor into government (with a bit of help from Howard & Co:)...I'm also supposing that if Gillard had been in Rudd's place in 2007, the win may not have been so resounding.

All conjecture, of course....as I said, a matter of perspective and opinion.

Sorry folks I know my memory is substantially flawed, but please, would somebody inform me why Mr Abbott needs to attend Court ? What's he allegedly done ? Except for being a politician of course.

Thank you.

While my theme, and wish, is to highlight the fact it is no easy task we are setting for the incoming government.
I think/thought my views about Labor ,repeating the events of the years 1972 till 1975 was clear.
We tend to remember the great achievements of that long gone government.
But as I did then, for some time, refuse to see the roll it played in its own removal.
We too could benefit, by knowing Big Mal, came in on a wave of joy, just as we sailed out on one of dispiar.
And the man who cryed on the night Bodgy Bob beat him, those GOLDEN TIERS! let his side down, more laughter came the night he lost his pants!
Nothing new here Lexi, the polls we lapped up with joy warning Howard he was gone, now telling of our doom we must execept them..
2 months after REALITY DAY, for us, and for the new government, others far more important than me, will eco my words, Labor will reform, or die, unions will consider the words wishes and thoughts of members
And only the truth can rebuild us, forget how bad you think Abbott is.
It will play only a small roll, the defeat may not be a landslide, but defeat it will be, and unnecessary too.
Abbott has committed to keep carbon tax welfare but dump the tax, no place in my posts have I said Abbott will be a good leader, his task is big.
And he by mid first term, if he is not replaced by then, will be considered a joke, on both sides of the house.

Dear o sung wu,

Regarding the reaons Mr Abbott has to go to court.
There's an article by Alan Austin in the "article
section," of this forum.

Have a read of it, including the comments section.
It may clarify things for you.

cont'd ...

I forgot to add it's under the title:

"Tony Abbott Goes Back to Court in June."

Belly,
I for one will put in a big effort to be rid of the present incompedent mob running parliament, but I do not expect it to be easy for those taking over.

Firstly,they will have to pay about $9 billion a year in interest alone on the debt Labor will have left them. But we simply cannot keep going the way we are now. From many promises of a surplus they finish with a $20 billion deficit and budget for an $18 billion deficit next year.

No, for some time the Libs will not have enough funds left to build any infastructure and will have to be very carefull with financial management. Labor has spent like drunken sailors, literally throwing the money away with gay abandon and we are left holding the baby.

I expect the Libs to run a tight budget and I expect them to stop the illegals coming, which alone will save heaps. Then i expect all the AGW rubbish to be abolished, with all the so called 'green investments' labor made.

For those that do not remember the libs did have surplus budgets and i expect the same again. We will again live within our means.

Yes Banjo, but only after thus mountain of labor debt has been brought under control..

That's going to be no mean task.

Every single labor voter, from the previous election and the comomg one, should take a real hard look at what they have helped to create.

Not to be proud, but to realize just what happens when one voted from the heart, and not the head.

Furthermore, if any of them have grand kids, they should spare a thought for them, as it is they who will be feeling the effects of the past five odd years of incompetence and total missmanagement.

If you were to tell an uninformed person today, where we were JUST LESS THAN SIX YEARS AGO, they would say, na, not possible!

What does it mean "live within our means?"

Is it so important for governments to have a surplus
when frontline desk staff in hospitals are cut to
the bone, when basic services are cut, when unemployment
increases, and so on. What's the use of having money in
the kitty when a government administration does very
little in providing the services that it should.

Governments should not be run like a business. They should
provide services for people and the nation. Our economy is
in good nick. We have a triple A rating. This is
not a cliche, it's what the International Monetary Fund tells
us, the Reserve Bank and world economists. Our economy is the
envy of the world. And we want to change things? We're told our
debt is negligible:

http://www.newmatilda.com/2013/05/14/swan-delivers-fails-sell

We know that Mr Abbott will establish a "Commission of
Audit," he told us so last night. This is a well-worn
Liberal tactic used by Premiers Newman, Baillieu, and
O'Farrell, to avoid disclosing their real plans prior to an
election and keeping secret the massive jobs, education, and
health cuts headed our way.

Australians deserve a little more respect from the man who wants
to lead the nation. The upcoming election will be held against
a back-drop of a fast-changing world. The central challenge
for political leaders and aspirants is to ensure Australia's
economic resilience in this time of change.

Mr Abbott's policies simply don't add up. He promises more
spending and lower taxes but he doesn't disclose what savings
he'll make to pay for his promises. We know the only way
out of this magic pudding world is to make massive cuts.
But not only is Mr Abbott refusing to disclose these, he's
also opposing other savings measures such as the government
reforms to the private health insurance rebate.

Why should we believe anything this man says. He wants to be
PM and is prepared to promise anything to get there.
His record for the truth is blemished. He'll do "whatever it
takes." Present whatever image is necessary. Gullible
people buy it. Others don't.

Here's a brief article and graph from The Economist.....seemingly telling us the opposite of all the doom and gloomers on this thread.

Reality, Gents?

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/12/focus-3

Dear rehctub,

You need to state facts as they exist, not the spin
that you've been buying.

As the link that I've supplied earlier states the:

"Australian economy has grown by 9 per cent since the onset
of the GFC. Our unemployment rate was only 5.5 per cent last
year and is not expected to rise above 6 per cent."

"Yes we're running a deficit - but it's only a tiny one -
$18 billion in underlying cash terms. Our deficit is only
1.1 percent of our gross domestic product. By the time the
budget returns to surplus sometime in the next few years
Australian's will have a government debt of only 11 percent of
GDP. A negligible figure by any sensible judgement."

"Anyway you look at it ordinary Australians are doing okay under
this government. Nearly a million jobs have been created.
Inequality has steadied, perhaps even fallen. Standards of living
have kept rising. Interest rates are at record lows..."

But I guess you can't please everyone.

Some people simply have to whinge.

I think Labor and can revive and Australia can reverse its situation under either major party.

While data says Aust is going well, it is not hard to find much evidence of some decline, whether it be greater home unafforability, the decline of many industries, and too much reliance upon consumption rather than production.

We just need to get more capable leaders.

Chris,

But the name of the game "is" consumption.

The whole edifice is designed around it.

Whichever way the pin drops politically, the whole show is unsustainable.

Remember this from the guy who actually predicted the GFC?

http://www.ibtimes.com/nouriel-dr-doom-roubini-karl-marx-was-right-841825#

And now we're all going round the floor for one more dance - executing exactly the same steps.

Here's another lengthy article which may interest you.

http://newleftreview.org/II/71/wolfgang-streeck-the-crises-of-democratic-capitalism

(Don't be put off by references to Marx or the New Left....they are interesting, especially Streeck's:)

Hi there LEXI...

Many thanks for providing me with an explanation of the apparent wrong doing of Mr Anthony Abbott. Well, I suppose one more or one less distraction won't make any real difference to the way this country is run ? People say to me don't let things get you down, when all around us this country is slowly imploding. What a mess. Again, thank you so much LEXI for taking the time to point out, that which has totally escaped my notice.

This coming Monday, I have an appointment at the Neuropsychological Department, at the Repatriation Hospital, for the purpose of establishing if I'm suffering from any number of the various Dementias, including age related, Alzheimer's and a couple others they've previously mentioned, which I've forgotten ?

Previously, I harboured a great fear of any forms of Dementia. Now, with the way this country is going, in some ways it may be a blessing in disguise ? They'll not be able to convey the results, of next Monday's testing, for at least a couple of weeks. So I'll be on 'tenterhooks' until then.

LEXI, thank you once more for appraising me of this court matter Mr Abbott has 'hovering' about him - another absurd distraction for the Coalition to confront, I suppose ?

Lexi,
'Living within ones means' is to not spend more than you earn. That prevents one from going broke. This present government has been spending far more than its income, This year $20 billion more than it earned and will have a total of about $300 billion debt by the election. Now debts have to be repaid along with the interest.

To give you some idea of a billion. One billion seconds ago it was 1959, how about that! In actual fact it is one thousand million (1000,000,000) Now our government has borrowed 300 times that.

Now the last time Labor lost government they left a $90 billion debt and it took the Libs 10 years to pay that off and create a bank account of an extra $20 billion, after running the country.

How long do you think it will take to repay $300 billion and interest?

It is no different to running a business or house, you just need to add a lot more zeros.

I just cannot believe Gillard advising citizen John to borrow money to keep up his lifestyle after his boss had stopped his bonus. The proper thing for John to do is to curb his spending. No wonder people have trouble with credit cards!

Hay o sung, I've got this theory about Dementia.

I reckon the best thing to do, if you've got it, is just forget it.

Now what was our topic?

Let me be frank, as I think my post history shows me to be.
I WILL never except the junk that this country is broke.
The all governments from 1983 have given us assurance we are not broke.
Now be careful! no one knew about the GFC on Rudd,s election.
And remember even your/our own words on the fragile state of the financial world.
At the blink of an eye, Abbott could confront a close down of the China trade, then?
I see hope, not the death of Labor, Labor has to confront the changes it has refused to contemplate, even Withlam wanted far more than he got, and few know he had to go hat in hand, to a union head, a powerful beyond any living today union head,Charlie Oliver, just to be given the leadership.
So change must, and will come , built after the bones of this divided ALP are sorted out.
But we face a mandate being given, have no doubt, to the coalition.
And they face and will pursue their wants not center or left .
I see a true chance we are about, briefly,to go the opposite way than the rest of the western world.
American right is facing change or near death,are going a little more right.
IF LABOR em brasses true reform ? re birth will be quick and less painful if not?
Fractured factions of my great party will be all that is left.
A warning! while some posters will hate me for it, IF Turnbull leads the Liberals, then a truly Liberal government may take decades to remove.

ao sung wu - nother absurd distraction for the Coalition to confront, I suppose ?

I don't believe so. Admittedly I'm cynical about politicians, particularly the major party legal leech types, however it appears to me there is no shortage of evidence that the RAbbott acted with demonstrable ill intent toward One Nation and especially Pauline Hanson. Whether or not HE actually pulled the trigger is immaterial, the clown clearly orchestrated the chain of events leading to the demise of One Nation. What Pauline Hanson was attempting to achieve was to force much needed accountability on the political circus, even if in hindsight she may have been more successful if she'd chosen a somewhat less controversial subject. That said, I fully supported her right to be heard, as did a lot of Australians who will NEVER vote for the RAbbott or for that matter, any federal LNP in which he is leader, purely because of his unethical treatment of One Nation. I am also very keen to see the early doings of the red-headed witch fully investigated as I have no doubt whatever that she knowingly & intentionally indulged in 'funny business', dealings which incidentally caused her then employer to dispense with her services.

Poirot,

I hope i have never given any impression i dont listen to the Left, i do. I have even sourced som data from socialist left sources. Most people have something useful to say. Marx did not become famous for nothing; did not one UK urvey vote Marx the greatest figure ever.

In fact, i once wrote to an editor of a magazine i used to get published in and suggested that a middle ground perspective was needed in Australia given the simplicity of extremes on both the left and right, and the need for all commentators to lift their game.

When at uni i was asked by one extreme left-leaning academics why i was such a supporter of liberal democracy given the horrors of the world and even the explitation caused by capitalism (which i referred to). While i think i am still learning, some 15 years later to be a better student, i stillhave a pragmatic view that a world of liberal democracies is still the best possibility for humanity due to democratic accountablity and so on.

While i know full well that many problems remain from economic competition, i am now worred that economic success by authoritarian naitons offers some sort of reason for some in Australia to dismantle our social welfare system. I believe this is not necessary and would mark the final capitulation of the hopes of the Enlightenment tradition. This is not to suggest i do not support the streamlining of social welfare programs.

I have long argued that the key to a sophisticated liberal democracy is how we adjust our production and consumption balance wihout turning in on ourselves.

I think Australia can do it, but we need great leaders, great interest groups, great consensus, great discussion, and great sacrifice by all to achieve the goal.

We also need politicians to lead by example, not giving themsleves pay rises and expecting others to take on all the burden of reform.

That's a really good post, Chris.

I'm sure the "middle way" is the only path to a stable and sustainable modern society.....of course, more difficult in a globalised market.

Do you remember this article/lecture I once posted by Tony Judt on social democracy?

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/dec/17/what-is-living-and-what-is-dead-in-social-democrac/

Poirot, i just read first page and i agree with this persepctive. I will give it a more detailed read tonight.

We should celebrate the diversity of thought in our liberal democracies, but we should also strive for ongoign analysis and ideas that can redefine a nation's direction to take account of the strengths and weaknesses of recent trends.

It is true that Australia has long been a lucky country, but i see enough commonsense in community and people to address our problems, albeit that perfect solutions are hard to achieve in a competitive world.

We all just need to lift our game.

From what I can see the Scandinavian countries are the best places in the world to live. They have a high average standard of living, a smaller gap between rich and poor than in most countries, a low index of corruption, political freedom, environmental consciousness, very good public schools, a higher percentage of GDP given to foreign aid than most developed countries, a free press and an independent judiciary.

They are capitalist welfare states.

Those who want complete laissez-faire capitalism call them socialist and point out their high taxes. They do have high taxes, but the people get a lot for those taxes.

Marxists criticise them because they are capitalist.

I think we could do well to emulate them. They seem to have a lot of things right.

While each country has different tradtions and a different take on the world, there is no doubt that Scandinavian countries do a lot of things well, albeit they have altered greatly in the last 20 years.

Sweden, as an economic player, is also very capitalist. When i told a few that Sweden did not have an oficial minimum wage, they were dumbfounded.

Economic success is never delivered by mere adherence to a theory; it is about assessing what is needed and what each player needs to do to improve their situation.

Such countries prove that higher taxes is not necessarily an impediment to high growth or well-being, albeit that there are enormous differences between their societies and their location when compared to Australia.

There is no shortage of 'good ideas' elsewhere but the number one question for me is how to convince our particular species of bloodsucking parasites there is more to life than the their arrogant & avaricious money-grabbing selves, love of money, a 'big' Australia, consumerism & economic growth.

Undoubtedly the most significant factor is the unbelievable apathy of the sheeple, even if that apathy has been created a la the Roman Empire by provision of all manner of diversions. Why don't the citizens of certain other countries sit back and ignore the carryings on of their elected officials. As an example, look at the Italians / Sicilians who are happy to blow away any scumbag politician who gets too big for his boots ?? I don't necessarily recommend we adopt their practices however its difficult to deny it gets the desired results.

Closer perhaps to our chosen way of life are the Swiss. How exactly did they manage to get citizen initiated referenda whereas we are constantly told 'its not allowed here'. Why indeed not ??

I've attempted several times to convince various bloodsucking parasites that continually building ever more roads isn't guaranteed to fix traffic congestion, in fact international experience has proven conclusively that more roads inevitable leads to INCREASED congestion. With General Disaster, any suggestion the economic growth paradigm is crap get met with a blank glazed over expression. Suggesting that if there was even one example where bigger population has led to higher living standard, politicians would trot that out constantly, gets exactly the same incredulity. Its effectively sacrilege to challenge the status quo, notwithstanding the inescapable fact that we are going backward at a million kilometers per hour and the light at the end of the tunnel is the oncoming train !!

G'day there HASBEEN & PRAXIDICE...

Mate, I got to give it to you, you have an inexhaustible level of great humour and good cheer ! Trust you Naval Aviators to save the day ! I wish I had the positive mood you seem to exude in spades ? I reckon you'd be a real scream in the Ward Room !

Hi there PRAXIDICE...

In one of your threads, you mentioned you'd be most keen to see the full events surrounding the PM's termination from her previous employment as a solicitor from Slater & Gordon, thoroughly investigated and the reason(s) publicly revealed ? I'll be prepared to lay a modest wager with you, (with considerable regret) that a true explanation to those events will never ever see the light of day ?

And if those reasons were simply, of an administrative nature, and were not of some questionable conduct, that may amount to either a criminal offence, or some other propriety, ethical ground, then it's really none of our business ?

o sung wu - And if those reasons were simply, of an administrative nature, and were not of some questionable conduct, that may amount to either a criminal offence, or some other propriety, ethical ground, then it's really none of our business ?

With respect (to you, NOT the witch), the red-headed witch chose to be a public figure, therefore her doings are likewise public. Like it or not, anyone who makes a conscious decision to live in the limelight must reasonably expect to be constantly scrutinized. I recall Joe Peanut once saying it wasn't necessary to be liked as a politician to be successful, just being a household word was sufficient. That certainly worked admirably for him because despite a litany of 'interesting' doings, he stayed in office for far longer than most would have guessed. I guess the difference between him and the red-headed witch is that Queensland ran reasonably well whereas the same certainly can't be said for the witch.

Chris Lewis great stuff! my constanst harping about my ALP,s fault,s is in the hope we can get to that place you picture sooner rather than sweep troubles under the carpet.
Some policy,s are never going to see every one happy but change can be for every ones benefit.
Abbott just by his election will slow the boats.
Just as word spread Labor was softer, it will about the new broom.
However how will he stop them?
Cutting the carbon tax but paying company,s to cut emissions, who pays.
Look for no instant fixes it will not happen.

Betty - Look for no instant fixes it will not happen

Very true, only the one-eyed LNP faithful would presume to declare the RAbbott infallible. He might well have had a catholic schooling, but thats a long way from being the pontiff. Then again, some us of don't believe the 'holy father' IS infallible. Personally I'd like to believe the one-eyed LNP faithful breed is as rare as the ALP equivalent, however when one reads that 30% of Australians still support the red-headed witch, one can but wonder. Fact is all politicians are human and thus they all share the normal human failings, albeit to an infinitely greater extent courtesy of the power breeds contempt factor. The solution, for what its worth, is for the sheeple to realize improvement in gubment is not to be realized by switching horses, but rather for the sheeple to take a more active interest in political doings & less in footbrawl, Days of Our Drearies, Home and Away & suchlike dribble. Ultimately the sheeple need to DEMAND their elected representatives (regardless of colour) sit up and take notice. Note particularly that these turkeys are our servants NOT our masters, despite their misguided belief to the contrary.

While wanting, at every opportunity, to express my concerns with the ALP I had other thoughts behind this thread.
We because of the extraordinary nature of this hung Parliament, have lower expectations of politicians.
And lower opinions.
We however hard we support our team, should know it is no easy task to please every one, in my view it can not be done.
As most would expect from me, a wounded Labor/Union tragic, I am sure Labors policy,s are far better.
I too, with no doubt, think as is and always has been the case, Liberals will, and have, cut and tax , controlling spending , its the way they work, but too, what most Australians,*think they want now*
I too think Liberalism will re emerge, Abbott,s politics are not Liberal.
Many commentators here and in the real world, are imposing a Howard like picture of Abbott, and too judging what he can achieve, on a pre GFC world.
It will not be a done deal, we face a different world.

.....Cutting the carbon tax but paying company,s to cut emissions, who pays.

Belly, the consumer is who should pay.

If the consumer (us) has to,pay an additional tax, on top of our energy bills, WE WILL REDUCE OUR USAGE.

Now if we reduce our usage, we reduce emissions, because generators and providers of energy will also reduce their outputs.

This whole carbon tax thing has been based on EU's carbon price being something like $23 per ton. ITS ABOUT $4.50 per ton.

It's just ome more thing this mob got wrong. AT OUR EXPENSE!

The thing is, we dont elect miracle workers, simply because we don't pay the right money to attract the right people.

Most CEOs expense budgets would be higher than the PM's salary.

I see no need to increase the politicians over all budget, we just need to TRIM THE FAT and get rid of much of the duplication in governments and pay those who are left, real money.

The day to day stuff can be performed by every day people, people who are simply told what t do.

I do think that if Clive Palmer had another year or so before the election, he would be a serious contender. He still may be, because after all, he's a MAKER not a TAKER.

betty - because of the extraordinary nature of this hung Parliament, have lower expectations of politicians.And lower opinions.

How do you figure that ?? Personally I believe a 'stable' gubmunt is the very worst case because that absolutely guarantees arrogance & total lack of any semblance of accountability, not that the latter has ever been high on the priorities of any Australian gubmunt. By comparison, a gubmunt with no effective majority has no option but to listen carefully to every bleat of the sheeple or suffer the kind of earth-shattering defeat we saw in Queensland last year and will certainly see in the federal election in September. That said, there is still time for the red-headed witch to reverse the fortunes of the ALP although due to her supreme arrogance, she is blind to her faults & thus incapable of making the necessary changes.

Belly, there is always room for a quick revival in a party's electoral fortunes. It happens all the time; it may again if the Coaliton proves incapable.

However, does that mean that us, traditional Labor voters, cannot shift sometimes and give a govt the flick rather than just hope it changes its ways?

For myself, who has no interest in being a diehard political member of any political party given my desire to comment on politics, i am looking for a party or parliament that can address most of my concerns for a better Australia.

At the moment, it is certainly not Labor, but who knows in the future.

I'm a "worker" in the sense that I'm a sole trader so my economic interests lie with the fortunes of the middle classes because all my work comes from that demographic but here's the catch, it's middle class values (their "feelings") which are also at odds with my economic interests. Skilled migration and illegal immigration are against my economic interests but widely supported by my clients in the middle classes, so too carbon pricing and so called "Green Policy".
What we need is a party which shakes the stupidity out of the middle classes and focuses their "feelings" toward their fellow Australians who are living in the here and now instead of encouraging all this pseudo Leftist nonsense and facilitating "Redneck Bashing". We need a party which appreciates caste differences and directs the benevolence of the wealthy and the creative toward the welfare and prosperity of their servants.
Liberalism and egalitarianism are dead, we need a small, efficient government with loyal bureaucrats who take care of the wealthy and creative people while demanding in return that they show loyalty to the worker castes.

Dear Jay Of Melbourne

I've just posted a new discussion based on a recent media interview of Big Clive. It should appear online later today & the video is definitely well worth watching, regardless of what colour team you may traditionally support. I have no doubt whatever this bloke is perfectly capable of turning the political circus on its head, more to the point one gets the distinct impression he is champing at the bit in anticipation of charging in feet and all. We could well be in for some VERY interesting times with impending demolition of many hitherto 'sacred cows', mind you not before time. Even the approach to dealing with refugees / boat people is EXTREMELY innovative given the absymal lack of progress to date by both major parties. All in all, Big Clive gave a pretty good expose' on what Australian politics will be like without legal leaches turned bloodsucking parasite politicians.

I am also interested in what Palmer has to say. Again, i like people who promote a can do mentality, and i think he has some important ideas, especilaly adding value to our basic products.

Chris Lewis - I am also interested in what Palmer has to say. Again, i like people who promote a can do mentality, and i think he has some important ideas, especilaly adding value to our basic products.

Check out this video I found on the UAP website. Talk about putting the cat among the pigeons !!

http://t.co/wQfDh33GeK http://t.co/jAT0yZ72pT

Yes, i saw that. He is quite an impressive speaker.

The only thing i would disagree on is that parl should have a good cross section of people from different backrounds, albeit that business experience is crucial.

But on the whole, i hope his party wins a singificant number of seats. The parl needs much more far dinkum debate rather than the crap that dominates today.

Put it this way, i am waiting for the Coaliton's industry policy. If it is more of the same, i will consider voting for the Palmer Party.

Palmer is right, ps should be about serving the country.

G'day there CHRIS LEWIS & PRAXIDICE...

Thank you for providing us all with a Video or some Q & A's from Clive PALMER'S interview in Canberra. Some of what he said I find a quite problematic, particularly his solution to these Illegal Boat People, I believe he over simplifies the problem, thus his solution is substantially flawed ?

Something he did say that resonated with me, as well as it did with both of you two, apparently. Was to ensure we process our precious raw materials, as much as possible, in order that we may 'Value Add' to them, prior to exporting them to our overseas customers. As Mr Palmer succinctly put it, if Japan with their higher wages Bill can do it, why can't we in Oz do something similar, with an abundance of our manufacturing industry now lying idle ?

Sure, I don't believe for a moment Mr Palmer is our new political messiah, but he does bring one concept to the table that's been lacking for so long now I can't recall it ever being any different ?

We need well qualified business people to run this country in an economic sense. Unquestionably and definitely NOT career politicians ! Nor lawyers, union leaders, academics, social scientists, and other academic 'bottom feeders' the likes we have sitting in Parliament now, sucking the very life blood out of the country !

Over time, those of you who've been silly enough to read any of my threads will know, I'm absolutely opposed to capital punishment. I've now revised that to exclude...Politicians who are proved to be seriously corrupt. The untold damage these maggots do is so serious, they should forfeit their life ! There's one still living who managed to escape serious criminal prosecution because he had a terminal illness ? Even I 'the pacifist' would pull the trigger on this bloke !

Chris Lewis - Yes, i saw that. He is quite an impressive speaker.

Big Clive is certainly a breath of fresh air after the rambling ineptitude of most of the present crop. Whenever I hear that unspeakably awful screech affected by the red-headed witch, I want to throw up, not that the RAbbott is anything to write home about.

Chris Lewis - parl should have a good cross section of people from different backrounds, albeit that business experience is crucial.

Neither the ALP nor the LNP lineup exhibit much of a cross-section, both being heavy with failed legal-eagle types & in the ALP case, filled in with a bunch of union heavies. As I've noted previously, why do we allow treasurers with less ability & experience than a severely retarded pre-schooler (eg the dying duck) and NO accounting / economic qualifications whatever to mess with hundreds of billions of our hard-earned money ?? We wouldn't entertain the thought for two milliseconds with our business interests, so why isw it different with the biggest business in the country ??

Chris Lewis - The parl needs much more far dinkum debate rather than the crap that dominates today.

EXACTLY. If pre-school level yard-apes carried on like our bloodsucking parasites they would be expelled within the first half hour

Chris Lewis - Put it this way, i am waiting for the Coaliton's industry policy. If it is more of the same, i will consider voting for the Palmer Party.

POLICY .... WHAT POLICY ?? I seriously doubt that the RAbbott, or any of his sorry tribe for that matter, can even spell the word !! Look at their feeble response to the dying ducks budget, mind you what more could be expected from a hopeful party leader who is not only a failed lawyer but also a failed priest ... seems to be a trend developing here. Furthermore, shadow treasurer Hockey is also a failed lawyer. What convinces these turkeys they have what it takes to run a national economy when they couldn't even run a tinpot legal practice ??

I will be campaigning strongly against Labor as we now have the most deceitfull and incompedent government ever,

However i will vote most likeley for Palmer or Katter, if they have candidates in my electorate, but I will be putting the Libs ahead of Labor, in preferences, because the most important thing at this election is to be rid of Labor.

I also will not give either major party the $2.00+ for my vote.

Mr Abbott needs to be upfront with Australians
about what he would cut to pay for his $4 billion
infrastructure promise, his $440 million tax rebate
commitment and his "article of faith" to remove
means testing of the private health insurance
rebate, among others.

As I've stated previously, we do know that Mr Abbott
will establish a Commission of Audit, he's told us
that in his reply Budget Speech. This is a well-worn
Liberal tactic used by Premiers Newman, Baillieu,
and O'Farrell to avoid disclosing their real
plans prior to an election and keeping secret the
massive jobs, education and health cuts headed our way.

Australians deserve a lot more respect from the man who
wants to lead the nation. The up coming election will
be held against a backdrop of a fast0changing world.
And the central challenge for political leaders and aspirants
is to ensure Australia's continued economic resilience in
this time of change.

o sung wo! do not put your self down, and do not be overly concerned about the signs of ageng, you are as bright as any of us.
I think I need to make this clear, and in doing so, for a short time divert my own thread.
Labor in my view has jumped many fences to be where voters want them.
And left much behind, I approve of both actions.
The NSW FILTH, and Rudd,s fate, the HSU, by implication, Gillard all her own work, take Labor to its lowest point in 40 years.
That will stick, be thrown back at us for decades.
Unions must not control my party, they have work enough raising membership, and alway bring pain when controlling the party.
Labors policy,s include great ones, history will see greatness in saying sorry, NDIS, Gonsky, Carbon reduction, Pensions and education.
BUT my friend Lexi, Abbott is not playing a roll, dislike of him will not match distrust of Unions/NSW FILTH/give me a word that better describes those ugly filthy Labor power brokers and mates who stole from NSW and saw Labors task to ever be trusted again almost imposable!
PICKET THEM! let the same rank and file who would be marched from work sites to scream abuse if THE FILTH had been a company.
Rechtub, you here as is your usual, look for policy,s you golden halo wearers are not intending to use!
What do you think you are getting?
Abbott,s policy is to reward firms who cut emissions, and to fund some to do it, he plans to plant that many trees to do it he will need to plant some at sea! we do not have enough land.

I am not sure my words have been enough to convince some that Labor is gone.
How many understand we once held every state and territory?
How many saw QLD fold?
And my very early warnings about the FILTH that was NSW/Sussex Street Labor?
Remember seeing the SNAIL TRAIL? left by a Sussex Street tool as he stepped down leaving his senate seat for Carr? [ must have steam cleaned that seat!]after being the general behind Rudd,s knifing? ANY ALP voter still believing other than Rudd wish for reform drove him from office should consider getting out more.
Why would the federal election, showing the same polling, be different that those states.
Yet a Victory is there for Labors taking.
IF after the defeat Union control is stopped, if branches stop being the private property of slugs.
IF labor is to re connect with those it constantly ignores , the very folk they claim to represent it should bar the suit wearing slugs who infest it.
Voters wanted Rudd they got Gillard, evidence the party thinks it need not hear the voice of its people.

Dear Belly,

Many thought that the minority government wouldn't
last. It has. It will have served its full term of
3 years. Also the collapse of trust in politics is
a defining feature of our current political culture
driven largely by the ruthless exploitation of the
Abbott Oppostion. As a result there are declining
levels of trust in most aspects of our entire
political system, including the media and its role
in reporting on it.

Historically Julia Gillard's Prime Ministership
will be seen as an unusually active and reforming
period in Australian public policy. Her legislative
achievements have not translated into public understanding
let alone support.

But when you have big media, big business, and big money,
against you, it is difficultd to get any kind of message out.

Labor depserately needs to become more open, transparent, and
democratic. But Labor knows this, a Committee of wise men,
one of which was Bob Carr, told it so back in 2010.
Let us hope that they will eventually listen.
Sooner rather than later.

Betty - For what its worth, algae in the oceans is infinitely more significant as a CO2 to O2 conversion factory than trees. Personally I prefer to live around trees even if they aren't quite as efficient as algae. I wouldn't lose too much sleep however about your favourite mob of bloodsucking parasites losing their way, the problem certainly restricted to the ALP. If truth be told, **NONE** of the present political breed have a clue. If perchance you can put aside the ALP devotion for a few minutes you might find the new thread 'Clive Palmer slams' enlightening. The video of a recent media interview is extremely impressive, in fact I can't recall a more inspiring contender in living memory.

Lexi "a defining feature of our current political culture
driven largely by the ruthless exploitation of the
Abbott Oppostion"

I sow wish you were joking but suspect that you are serious.

It goes back much further than that. Richo's whatever it takes mentality has been with us for a long time.

Abbott has his team have been fortunate to have a government that's an easy target with plenty of obvious stuff ups and failures and little if any for most people to see by way of benefit from the reportedly record number of pieces of legislation they have passed.

Rudd was fortunate in the previous governments poor handling of industrial relations reform. That stuff up on Howards part was exploited ruthless by Labor and the unions in a very successful negative campaign. Likewise a few other issues where Howards unwillingness to pay lip service to the issue created an opportunity even if the real outcomes were no different. The apology and Climate Change being two that come to mind.

The coalition are not the first opposition to ruthlessly exploit the failings of a government nor are they likely to be the last.

R0bert

Dear RObert,

As political commentators have pointed out:

In politics a degree of rhetorical flourish and a
pinch of hyperbole is to be expected. As is holding
the governmentd to account. However when the whole
basis of an Opposition campaign is a lie about a lie, then
the bar is not being set very high.

There is a gulf of difference between a broken promise
in the context of altered circumstances and a deliberate
decision to mislead. As such, to accuse the PM of lying
and to argue that the carbon pricing scheme is based on
a deliberate pre-meditated lie in itself displays some
towering mendacity. That it has persisted for so long and
spawned the meme "Juliar" (a term used only by the
ignorant, and spiteful) says more about Mr Abbott's
guile and ability to manipulate the facts for his own
destructive ends than it does about the PM's trustworthiness.

And as I asked earlier, what about Mr Abbottt telling
SkyNews in 2009 that, "if you want to put a price on
carbon why not just do it with a simple tax?" or
claiming that the cost of a lamb roast will soar to $100,
whole towns and industries will disappear and that our
entire economy will be laid to waste.

By all means lets have a discussion but lets stick to the
facts. I am sick and tired of the beat ups in the tabloid
press misrepresenting things and not giving a balanced
account. If the Opposition wants to hold the government to
account - it too needs to be placed under scrutiny and
have a blow-torch placed on some of the nonsense it
espouses. The collapse in trust in politics is a defining
feature of our current political culture - driven largely
by the kind of negative politics that has characterised the
carbon debate. And for the the Opposition is solely
responsible.

Lexi,
You really are a Labor tragic. You will not acknowledge the stuff ups Labor has made. You are trying to blame the media and Opposition for Labors uneptitude.

Do you actually want to start a list of Labor lies to go hand in hand with Labor stuff ups.

OK, here is a few and others might like to add to the list.

1. Both Rudd and Gillard promised to stop the boats.

2. Gillard lied to Wilkie about the pokies.

3 Gillard lied about the carbon Tax.

4. Rudd promised a $6 billion plan to fix the homeless-- nothing.

5. Promised time and time again there would be a surplus-$20 billion deficit.

6. Promised tax cuts- failed to deliver.

7. In 2010 Gillard promised $2.2 billion to build 16 mental health facilities-- Nothing.

8. Promised hospital reform--nothing

9. Promised PCs for schools. Half delivered

10. Promised to cut 'red tape' 12835 new regulations/58 repealed

11.Promised 260 child care centres--38 delivered

12. Promised 64 super GP clinics--11 delivered.

13. Promised 2650 Trade training centres--70 delivered

14. Promised Rudd Bank--nothing.

Anyone want to add the promises missed. Was not there something about promised aboriginal housing not being done?

Hi there BELLY old friend...

Many thanks for your vote of support, I certainly appreciate it, believe me. Similarly, don't get yourself down too much either, on the state of your beloved Labor Party, BELLY.

The upcoming election may well clean out those within who've done your Party the most harm over the ensuring four or five years. I don't know ? Maybe you're in the best position to identify Labor's most culpable political transgressors ? Those of them who manage to orchestrate matters behind the scenes ? Perhaps it's they alone who are the most deserving, of the Party's severe censure ?

Though, I always believe in the old dictum, 'it takes two hands to clap'. I don't believe any one individual, in the parliamentary Labor Party, is solely to blame for any electoral loss. Most of it can be apportioned squarely at the feet of these 'faceless' men and women, who pull the strings, we so often hear about ?

Still, it's not for you to worry over BELLY. If anything they've betrayed you and your cohorts completely. You've given them your loyalty and valued support. And in return they've 'sold out' you and their other faithful members, for no other reason but to advance their OWN personal grip on power ! They're so corrupt, they simply can't even recognise it ? They've got this cockeyed view, they are there to rule in perpetuity, such is the level of their hubris, it's stunning ! Though in reality, it's all so very sad ?

Go quietly there ol' son. As I said earlier, it's not for you or your other loyal cohorts to agonize over, or to blame. I reckon you know precisely where the blame lies ?

Banjo, there are also the elections where significant portions of the campaign were based around claims that the Libs would increase the GST (including the original one when Hewson took it to the polls). Fear campaigns based on Howard handing over to Costello etc.

I'm no fan of the opposition as it now stands but the attempt to lay the blame for negative oppositions pretty much entirely with the current coalition opposition is somewhat staggering in it's one sidedness.

Lies and fear mongering have unfortunately been potent tools in Australian politics for too long. The suggestion that's primarily about the Abbott lead opposition is somewhat amazing.

R0bert

When its all said and done, the concept of honor is totally foreign to both the ALP and the LNP. Both leadership & normal members alike regard survival of their party as infinitely more important than principles with the ALP 'possibly' slightly worse in that respect because of the more obvious influence of the various pressure groups within and without. History has shown that even a long period in the wilderness or a shattering defeat only has a short-term effect, a few years later we are back to exactly the self same rabble. One would have hoped the Queensland LNP would have learned from the lessons of history but the antics of Newman / Seeney / Nicholls suggest otherwise. Likewise it would be reaonable to expect the red-headed witch &b the dying duck to have learned from previous ALP disasters but again, such is not the case. I really don't know what is required to convince these turkeys to behave. I guess there is at least some reason for the Newman / Seeney / Nicholls arrogance, after all they started with probably the biggest majority in recorded history and as such viewed themselves as completely invincible. The red-headed witch however has not only a tenuous majority but also a less than completely compliant senate, so I'd expect her to be on the ball. Obviously the untold arrogance of bloodsucking parasites generally blinds them to their mistakes. Ultimately I see the real responsibility for this state of affairs belongs to the supremely apathetic sheeple who have chosen not to demand accountability.

Praxidice – You say

“I guess there is at least some reason for the Newman / Seeney / Nicholls arrogance, after all they started with probably the biggest majority in recorded history and as such viewed themselves as completely invincible.”

The reality is they got less than 50% of the vote

A system similar to the federal one delivered 88% of the seats to a party with less than 50% of the vote. A proportional system would have Labour 24, LNP 44, Greens 7, KAP 10, Others 4 seats.

We need to fix the system.

Not sure if it is server fault but had to sign in mid post yesterday, then again today.
Lexi,if only, if only I was not a 24/7 walking politician!
I see about a thousand every weekend market day, they see my always on ALP shirt.
And long ago, working class people have left Gillard.
Yet you are quite right! as sure as we are history your thoughts on its view of this government, along with my own, will become the future view [ both great actions and awful ones]
Without reform there will be no ALP.
Carbon reduction, watch it become Liberal policy to truly reduce carbon, it will happen.
Abbott, by his every action, is all the evidence we need, to prove against such Labor is in the hearts of voters STILL GONE.
Those responsible for my living night mare will emerge from their rats nests when it is too late, and reforms major reforms, will transform Labor.
But how do we get those we,all over Australia, let down back?
Frank honesty is better than that filthy word solidarity, it in any dictionary should get its new meaning printed, *To hide the filth*
EG *IGNORING WRONG BECAUSE HE IS ONE OF US*
PS national booth wanted to hang me! coasts biggest market, and enjoyed walking past often, I was one of the few who knew they had a booth, Oakshot is the target.

Producer - The reality is they got less than 50% of the vote

Such are the advantages of the gerrymander. Mind you neither Teflon Pete nor GoAnna the Blight perceived any reason to 'fix' the system and they certainly had more than sufficient time. Obviously the Newman / Seeney / Nicholls won't tamper with something that works to their benefit, likewise the RAbbott given his part in the demise of One Nation.

It all comes back to the reality of humans with uncontrolled authority being inherently corrupt. Sure we need to 'fix the system' but to be effective, the 'fixing' needs to be set in concrete well before any authority is conferred.

Dear Betty and other ALP tragics

You people persist in the mistaken belief that the ALP is the only true political party & that its impending federal defeat is the fault of a few. Fact is that **ALL** the present crop of politicians (regardless what colour jersey they wear) have lost the plot entirely. None of the clowns have divine right ... they are merely SERVANTS of the people (or more correctly sheeple in Australia) elected for a finite time to carry out the wishes of the majority. Ultimately the people / sheeple are the bosses, they alone have right to hire and fire. Quite obviously the major parties (as well as many smaller ones) have actively conspired to de-rail the system for the benefit of the union movement (in the ALP case), big-business (LNP) & the IL-legal / IN-justice establishment (both major parties).

I've long suggested an a-political citizens union be established to represent the interests of the people / sheeple against the political circus generally. No doubt if we had more people in Australia than sheeple, this might be achievable. Why for example, do we allow these turkeys to adopt the 'honorable' title the moment they take office when in reality the words 'honorable' & 'politician' are for the most part mutually exclusive. Some will immediately jump on soapbox & scream I don't show the clowns 'respect'. Why indeed should I ?? Respect is EARNED as a result of doing something of value, its certainly not an attribute automatically conferred on a person just because they happen to be in whatever position. It would be far more apt to demand politicians respect their electors, after all they only get their nice cushy overpaid jobs because WE put them where they are. Given the myriad examples where our elected officials have knowingly and intentionally sought to lie, delude, mislead, rip-off, con & perpetuate all manner of mischief on us, they have no right whatever to respect. We should in fact demand that henceforth they be addressed as the DIS-honorable member until or unless they prove they are otherwise

Dear RObert,

I'll try again.

As one political observer commented:

"Since the PM announced the September 14 election, the
man who once wanted cameras to follow his every move has
noticeably reduced his media commitment, abruptly walks
away from press conferences and is keeping tight-lipped
in Parliament Question Time (except for the odd
interjection he seems unable to restrain). It looks like
now that the scrutiny is being applied, Mr Abbott has
nothing to say."

"Last year, we endured a political debate mired in the
personal, the trivial, and so often, the downright nasty.
Yet beyond the grounds of Parliament House, the desire is
for a debate about real issues and real plans."

"Labor has set out its plan - a plan to ensure a strong
economy and support jobs and growth. A plan for education
reform, health, and aged care and a National Disability Insurance
Scheme and to boost skills and innovation so we can succeed
in the Asian Century."

"Do we know what Mr Abbott's plans are for Australia?
The Libs spruik a supposedly "ready to go," set of policies,
yet we have no idea what they are. No details have been
provided on substance, how much they'll cost or how they'll
be paid for. Their strategy for electoral success is to make
policies a policy-free zone."

I watched Joe Hockey on the "Insiders," yesterday.
When questioned by Barrie Cassidy, Hockey could not give a
straight answer, he was all over the place - it was confusing
to say the least. He kept contradicting himself. Possibly as
a result of saying what he really thought, and then remembering
he had to toe the party line. It wasn't a good look and
certainly did not inspire confidence in his Party's
economic credentials.

Now that is something that is amazing.

Lexi,

Perhaps we shouldn't be too hard on Hockey.

He was probably still recovering from being bounced around by Alan Jones.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/joe-goes-into-bat-and-is-hit-with-a-jones-bouncer-20130517-2jrlo.html

: )

Dear Banjo,

As economists tell us:

"Australia's economy has grown by 9% since the onset of
the GFC. Our unemployment rate was only 5.5% last year and is
not expected to rise above 6%. Yes we're in deficit but it's
a tiny one - $18 billion in underlying cash terms - our deficit is
only 1.1% of our gross domestic preduct. By the time the budget
returns to surplus sometime in the next few years Australians
will have a government debt of only 11 per cent of GDP.
A negligible figure by any sensible judgement. Anyway you look at
it ordinary Australians are doing okay under this government.

"Nearly a million jobs have been created. Much legislation has
been passed. Inequality has steadied, perhaps even fallen.
Standards of living have kept rising. Interest rates are at record
lows." And the list goes on.

BTW - just to remind you...Andrew Wilkie rejected Tony
Abbott's $1 billion hospital offer. He angered Senior Coalition
powerbrokers who felt betrayed after Wilkie rejected an offer
from Tony Abbott (to get Wilkie's support) that would see
the Tasmanian MP's local hospital receive $1 billion.
Coalition front-benchers were furious that they had been
snookered by Mr Wilkie who labeled the Opposition leader's
offer as "over the top and irresponsible."

For every bad thing that you list - there's always heaps
of goog stuff to balance things out. Still, invariably the
way we colour the world will be from our own agendas, our
own unique view. And that is rarely black and white.

Cheers.

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for the link.

Who'd have thought that could happen?

Dear Belly,

As I've stated many times in the past - Labor needs internal
reform and grassroots level re-engagement with people.
A contest between Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott is a poor way
to try to win government. Labor's job is especially
difficult when the likes of the big media, big business, and
big money are lined up against them - it's hard to get any
message out. And of course in the mediascape polls trump
policies every time. And people buy it. Lets hope they're
not all gullible.

Another link for you, Lexi,

"Abbott focuses on profit, not people"....gaps in logic?

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/editorial/abbott-focuses-on-profit-not-people-20130517-2js2r.html

Dear Poirot,

Great link. Thank You.
Yes - big gaps in logic. I had the same
feeling watching Joe Hockey on the "Insiders."
People need to have things pointed out to them.
They need to learn the truth of what's in store
for them and the direction this country is going
to be headed if these guys get into office.

Lexi - They need to learn the truth of what's in store for them and the direction this country is going to be headed if these guys get into office.

Any but one-eyed LNP tragics need only look at the Newman / Seeney / Nicholls dictatorship to see what a federal LNP would / will be like. The RAbbott doesn't even have an alternative to the dying duck budget, maybe the dying duck could switch parties and assist the RAbbott 'rape & pillage' plan because there is no way the people of Lilley will give him another chance after his record run of stuffup budgets. Whilst I'll be hoping Big Clive gets up in September, thankfully none of the clowns will have much effect on my lifestyle.

Dear Prax.,

Well you're lucky. If these people get in
they will certainly have a great effect
on the lifestyle of most Australians.
Especially the most vulnerable and the aged.
What's worse then a liar, is a liar who's
also a hypocrite.

Lexi - Well you're lucky. If these people get in they will certainly have a great effect on the lifestyle of most Australians. Especially the most vulnerable and the aged.

I don't know that even the most dyed in the wool ALP freak would claim the red-headed witch & the dying duck have exactly done a lot beneficial to ANY Australians, including the most vulnerable and the aged. What they have done is tell more porkies than any gubmunt in history, they have awarded themselves the most outlandish wages paid to any politician on the planet, they have squandered taxpayers hard-earned money on the most insane schemes, they have stuffed six budgets in succession (probably an all time record) and still they haven't seen the error of their ways. Don't draw the conclusion that I'm suggesting a RAbbott & Hockey show would be any improvement, they could well be every bit as bad if not worse. The real moral of the story is that the problem is far more basic than merely one of what team is in office, its the whole party political system that has passed its use-by date. Quite simply, humans with authority cannot be trusted to act honorably, even more so when they have a background in law and / or the priesthood. The party system itself is a con. Nobody can serve two masters & the major party political scumbags certainly DON'T serve those who elect them.

Sign in again? third time in two days?
Lexi a sad truth.
To win elections party,s do not need you and me, we are fixed, as are the Liberals taking part here.
Being uncommitted some times proves those folk are thinkers, and why do you think the polls say we are in it, up to our chins.
I do not share the view, it is Abbott vs Gillard, both are unloved, but it does not matter.
Labor must, now, *confront tomorrows view* in time we will see faceless men chant has been replaced with * Crimals* read, every day, the NSW inquiry reports about the NSW FILTH.
Australian voting public can hardly wait to pass judgment on us, in truth our defense has ignored our faults in the hope concentrating on Abbott,s can change minds.

Dear Belly,

Regardless of how we feel about the pollies personally
I guess we'll have to wait and see how history judges
them, and whether they will judge them imparitally.
The truth is never as simple as it seems and as I've
stated previously, invariably the way we colour the
world will be from our own agendas, our own unique view.
And that is rarely black and white.

Australians' interests are far more complex than those
who insist on seeing all discussions through a fixed
ideological viewfinder. We're remarkably diverse.
We have voters of all persuasions, city and country folk,
very young and very old, straight, gay, and everything
else.

It is going to be interesting come September.

Dear Belly,

Here's something that you need to read:

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/tony-abbotts-budget-reply-porkie-pies/

Lexi and Belly,

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4700796.html

...from a former media adviser to the Howard and Kennett govts.

Lexi and Poirot, I have been reading it for decades.
See it is 1972 to 1975 all over again.
The media was just as savage, and some within my party just as foolish.
Few non Labor folk care to see the Murdock/Fox link to ultra Conservative politics.
Even less, from that group, want to think about what untra conservatism brings with it.
I how ever have never been much good, at lieing.
To myself as well.
NSW FILTH headlines yesterday, [Labor ministers!]spoke of the biggest fraud in government ranks since the Rum Rebellion.
So what?
Labor post election will be at the factory gates of bosses, government politicians.
Why not take the opportunity now?
To get out and protest, clearly show Labor and unions feelings and separation from the FILTH?
Truth hurts, take every fraud Abbott ever used, take all the wrongs of media and the right.
And know, such is the discontent with Gillard and the wrongs on our side.
WE ARE UNELECTABLE.
Now feel my pain, I know I bring in public life and here, scorn on my head.
And that defeat will bring thousands of supporters to my views.
But unless it brings many more, brave enough to demand change, POWER BROKERS will dig in making ,for generations, the ALP unelectable.
Yet a chance exists, if we let truth guide us, that the needed reform will come very fast.
Australia needs on non Liberal party, not one wasting its power, green, of todays Labor , fighting its own party inflicting an unwanted by most Gillard on us.

I am keen to return to the threads intended path, while refusing to blind myself to our coming loss.
As a sign things government have no control over changes the game.
In this case mainly a positive the sinking Australian dollar will impact in many ways, our exports will gain an advantage.
But mining exports contracts already written will not.
Imports and fuel will suffer, but over all manufacturing should gain, breath again, it was our dollar that stiffed it.
Government has no control over it, but can both suffer [tax drops] and gain from it.
I am no dreamer, but see a shaky Tony Abbott at present, a chance still exist he will not lead for long, Hockey seems not pleased with him.
At some point in history we will see, just have to, a new GFC!
Even here we must one day address the price and availability of housing.
So no easy task for the incoming government and pit falls exist, however they seem likly to have two terms to get it right.

The way to turn politicians into miracle workers is to constantly communicate our wishes to them, as at the BPN planning forum we attended in Parliament House yesterday. The best way is to spend the tiny amount a Votergram costs and tell them all. When we guide, inform, constructively and privately criticise them, then they will produce the miracles we want. It is better to vote for good politicians than favourite parties, because parties are always after the power that being in government gives them to deliver wealth to their financial backers. Kings, queens and dictators have done that for thousands of years. Democracy does not change the nature of those who seek to rule. It just changes the way they get there - by lies and promises, PR, Spin and fancy speeches. There are miracle workers in all parties and amongst independents. It is we, the voters, who let the system down. We don't even cheer them on like a footy team. We just hurl insults and rubbish at them and look surprised when no miracles flow.

Dear Voterland,

Well said.

Once people no longer take their world for granted,
but instead understand the social authorship of their
lives and futures, they can become an irresistible
force in history.

Is this now not getting all to boring with Belly and Lexi and Belly and Lexi going on and on and.........sigh....on!

Id hate to go to dinner with you lot because all your discussion would be very boring stuff really!

Dear misanthrope,

I'm an excellent cook - so it wouldn't be too bad
at all. Besides - you can always join in and
contribute to liven things up a bit or do you
just sit there at dinner parties and expect to be
entertained? Now that makes for one dull and
boring guest - might give you a miss.

Lexi if you cook as bad as you write I don't think so Im afraid. Why don't you and others put some interesting things to talk about instead of constantly putting down the Labor Party who are trying to keep Australia financially capable? At least your friend Belly sticks up for the party, instead of the many racist, anti Labor people who constantly throw dirt at them and everyone else. I don't think you are racist, not like Hasbeen and Osongwo and Praxdice and many many others on this Cite? They all should be ashamed of themselves and the muck they are always trying to throw at the Labor Party all the time.

Misanwhat ever! well come but.
Lady Astor said to Winston Churchill, *you are a horrible man! if you were my husband I would poison you!*
He replied if I was I would drink it!
Now may I say your self opinionated view is giving far more value to your view that its true worth.
Will watch without anticipation, to see if you actually have views or come to insult.
Much time exists post election, for me to complain about SOME, not all, Liberals and the Nationals[their Pups] actions.
Now however my task is to try to get Labor to wash and iron the sheets before disaster day.
I do not claim the ability's of Churchill, while ever ready to use the masters words my own thoughts are along the lines of chooks turning in to emus and kicking the place your thoughts came from, down.

Hi there MISANTHROPE...

If your personality is in any way reflected by your absurd 'sobriquet', perhaps it's you that needs to examine your position, and much of that which you try to write ? Believe me, my peculiar little friend, there are very few contributor's herein who are 'racist' as you claim ? Particularly those you chose to identify.

So if I may be so bold as to suggest what it is I think you should do ? Go away and quietly examine your own priorities; Then, make some sort of attempt at tidying up your vocabulary; Then, and only then, return to this place with a much more positive, polite, and mature attitude, towards all who care to contribute herein !

Other than that 'sunshine', have a great day ?

Dear misanthorpe,

I think you've got me confused with someone else
old chap. I'm not the one putting down the Labor
Party - unless of course that's a typo or you're
being facetious. Check my posting record.
Apology accepted.

Voterland - The way to turn politicians into miracle workers is to constantly communicate our wishes to them,

Thats effectively what Arthur Chresby says in his booklet 'My Will be Done' (see discussion by same name). Many of the contributors were (understandably) critical, citing a long history of studied indifference to constituents on the part of politicians generally. That said, the present public confidence in Australian politics is clearly at an alltime low and dropping steadily, so anything and everything is worth a try. I will certainly be putting Chresbys sample letters to the test ... with three of the laziest and most inept dingbat representatives who ever drew breath, I figure there is nothing to lose. The weak point is enlisting others to follow suit, given the apathy of the sheeple, we'll almost certainly see the long-awaited financial crash before the sheeple decide to extract their collective digits.

Each of us, can find fault in any political party.
My constant niggles at my lifes party are, in defense of that party!
Some one needs to be the driver of change.
But here two at least posters make the claim all are useless, put your own insult and some one has used it.
Not so, never was or will be, I will not bore you with a list,a long one, of Labors emerging greats.
A list could be just as long for the other side, squashed, under Abbotts few.
But watch the post election chin dropping!
Taxs will, and must, rise under any winner.
Labor is less constructive in this area, or has been under Gillard, so after the mandate Australia, and *Labor power brokers* have delivered to Abbott, remember post election who we owe for our pain.
WE should be aware true fools usually young and always stupid fish for us on the net.
Do not forget recent history of true trolls leading to needless deaths, because of brain dead taunting.

Dear Belly

I believe its 'possible' for your ALP to find its way again, however finding rocking-horse droppings / frogs feathers would undoubtedly be more likely. There are simply too many pressure groups fragmenting the party in furtherance of individual objectives, none of which give a rats about the sheeple. Sure there WERE Labor 'greats' back in the never-never, but we are talking ancient history. These days the ALP shares a common evil with the LNP, namely the number of legal leeches. Furthermore, society itself has changed dramatically since the heady days of the Australian Socialist League. Unions in particularly no longer have the position they once had, mind you there is a growing need for 'something' to represent ordinary sheeple against the combined forces of multinationals / big-business / gubmunt etc. I suggest that if grass-roots members regained the upper hand & turfed out all the parasitic hangers-on (especially the ex-lawyers, but also the union heavys and failed academics), the ALP would be well on the way to legitimacy. The mind doth boggle what would the founding fathers would have made of the likes of the Undertaker, the KRudd, the red-headed witch & the dying duck, certainly they would turn in their graves if they were aware those bottom-feeding parasites were in power.

How many countries have a triple A credit rating
and a stable outlook with all four major global
credit agencies - Standard & Poor's, Fitch,
Moodys and Dagong? Only one - Australia.

I guess the government must be doing something right.
At least as far as others are concerned.
A shame that this message doesn't seem to be publicised
in this country.

Lexi - How many countries have a triple A credit rating and a stable outlook with all four major global credit agencies - Standard & Poor's, Fitch, Moodys and Dagong? Only one - Australia.

More good luck than good management. The writing is already on the wall with Queensland suffering one downgrade under the Blighters and another under General Disaster. Given the dying ducks unblemished record of stuffup budgets & the obvious ineptitude of Hockey, its only a matter of time before the credit agencies focus their attention on our federal situation. Quite simply, nobody can continue to squander more money than they receive, yet neither the ALP nor the LNP have come to grips with such a basic concept. Furthermore, if the Queensland experience is any example, the sheeple won't be told the truth about the real state of finances, rather the clowns will duck & weave , providing whatever fanciful excuses deemed necessary to indulge in wool-pulling. Seems Costello is already being groomed to undertake a federal version of the 'independent' inquiry con he perpetuated in Queensland. No doubt he's already received instructions from potential buyers of certain assets preparatory to ensuring those are high on the list of things to be flogged. Note that even the dying duck twigged to Costello antics in Queensland, even if Newman / Seeney / Nicholls managed to convince the CMC that the organization should lose interest. There is no way 'interesting' events like that one can continue indefinitely without repercussions.

Dear Prax.,

Labor made a choice to support local jobs during the
Global Financial Crisis, a choice many countries around
the world didn't, or couldn't make. These countries will
be paying a very high price for many years.

Anyway you look at it ordinary Australians are doing
okay under this government. Nearly a million jobs have
been created. Inequality has steadied, perhaps even
fallen. Standards of living have kept rising.
Interest rates are at record lows.

And the list goes on.

Whereas have a look at what Mr Abbott promises:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/editorial/abbott-focuses-on-profit-not-people-20130517-2js2r.html

Lexi - Labor made a choice to support local jobs during the Global Financial Crisis,

You mean the 457 visa rort that actively encourages big companies to import cheap third world labour instead of Australians ??

Anyway you look at it ordinary Australians are doing okay under this government. Nearly a million jobs have been created. Inequality has steadied, perhaps even fallen. Standards of living have kept rising.
Interest rates are at record lows.

Strangely enough, nobody of my acquaintances in the workforce is in a better position thanks to the red-headed witch, most are barely scratching by in the vain hope of winning the casket or whatever. The building / construction industries and retail sectors are deader than dodos, miningg is in free-fall, and the public service is shedding staff at a record rate. Dunno where the 'jobs' are, thanks to moronic anti-discrimination rules I see lots of over 40s frantically applying for thousands of jobs they will never hear about. If your standard of living has improved under the red-headed witch, you would be one of the very very few. As for interest rates, surely you don't suggest that the moronic dying duck who stuffed up six succeeding federal budgets had anything to do with interest rates, apart of course from running the country so far into the ground that the reserve bank had no option but to cut rates.

Lexi,
Last night on ABC 7.30 there was a segment about Bluescope Steel in SA axing 800 jobs. Labor came to the rescue with a $3o million handout to assist the workers get other jobs. It was marched by the SA government and Bluescope.

According to the programme, very few jobs were created and only a handfull went to former Bluescope employees.

Now the question is what happened to all that money? Was it even forthcoming or was it misappropriated? No answers were given.

Another Labor stuff up or another broken promise by Labor. Making political decissions, announcing them with no intention of carrying them out.

Banjo - Now the question is what happened to all that money? Was it even forthcoming or was it misappropriated?

or was it diverted to the half-billion dollar war-chest the red-headed witch, the dying duck & the wong wun have spirited away in their vain hope of buying votes before September ??

Why have neither the RAbbott nor the governor general chosen to raise the roof about this evil practice ??

Gentlemen, you really need to do a bit more research
before posting. We do have a current financial problem
globally. Still despite this Australia is doing remarkably
well and our economy is the envy of the industrialised
world.

We all know how tough our manufacturer's
are doing due to our high dollar. And steel manufactureres
along with others are doing it tough simply because they're
not competitive and the demand for their product has
fallen.

The Labor government gave Bluescope $110 million to help
finance the elimination of jobs and it is further helping
to enforce restructuring of steel companies and manufacturing as
a whole. Re-configuration of steel production is vital to
maintain viability of its Australian operation.

Of course the government cannot be held responsible if the
CEO's of Bluescope decided to give themselves bonuses
in the millions while their company is struggling.

But carry on with the blame game.

I'll leave you to it.

Lexi the night before the 2007 election I comforted you here and assured you Rudd was going to win.
I note Praxs usual landslide of doom gloom and insults.
Know Lexi, this far out from the election, I too know all the good things you tell about Labor.
I too know, fear, the bad things and much more, you say about Abbott.
Truth is a miserable thing! some times, it defiantly stands any test.
Despite all the above, every thing, our country has made up its mind.
We are gone!Rudd? do you remember the pure joy.
His sorry speech, and the then leaders sham one.
Can you remember poll after poll SHOUTING! we want Kevin.
And did you feel gutted when he kept his word/did not have enough votes to unseat Gillard.
I FEAR a great deal, understand not all Abbott does will be bad, BUT he stands for big money, we stood once for those crying we want Rudd, they still do, want Rudd.
This morning in a sea side town, tourist atracting wealthy retirement town, I was reminded how much I will miss.
And what Labor could have done, two different people at different times as I waited for my bank to open , went through the rubbish bin searching for food.
One was a middle aged woman, clean tidy and? hungry, the other quite dirty a man bit younger, both I was told are sleeping on the streets of that town, one GY mentions from time to time.
There again is my reason for being ALP for reminding them they have badly let us down.
And Lexi my friend all hope is truly gone, to not know that is to not understand the great hight Labor has fallen from but will rise to again, clean fresh and a sight to gladden me for sure.

Lexi - . We do have a current financial problem globally (worsened considerably when the ALP clowns squandered millions on inane schemes)

The Labor government gave Bluescope $110 million

Of course the government cannot be held responsible if the
CEO's of Bluescope decided to give themselves bonuses
in the millions while their company is struggling. (Hmmmmm)

Seems to me those three alone would constitute more than adequate proof of the utter ineptitude of the red-headed witch, the dying duck and the wong wun, but then we find they have highjacked another half billion of OUR money to buy votes .... and you still claim the parasites have an acquaintance with honor ??

Dear Prax.,

I can see that we're not going to agree on so many
things. On the PM for one thing. Eva Cox sums things
up very well when she states that the PM:

" I think she's done a
good job in holding together a diverse and quite
different group of votes in the Senate and the House of
Reps and she has pursued the business of government
with some efficiency, with many bills going through unopposed
and many others passed with narrow margins. In that sense, her
role, as head of the executive process of government has been
impeccable."

I'm not saying she's perfect. Nobody is. But you can't blame her
for the control by party machine men and relying on bad
research to justify egregious policies that prove the
government is tougher than the Opposition. These problems
would still exist with or without her.

As Eva Cox tells us: "The PM has many characteristics to be
admired. She has a strong sense of who she is, what she stands
for, many negotiator skills, the ability to stay cool and
collected under considerable pressure, she's a good parliamentary
performer, and a warm personality up close."

You may disagree with all of that and that's fair enough.
However what is not fair is the way in which you abuse
the PM and her team. People you don't really
know in the most disgusting and
personal terms. That lowers the bar of the discussion.
And is very off-putting.

Dear Lexi - someone who knowingly & intentionally fleeces taxpayers to the tune of half a billion dollars purely to fuel their personal fantasy has obviously no right to any level of respect. I don't expect much from scumbag politicians but this witch has stooped to an all-time low. Despicable doesn't even begin to describe the mood.

Prax is of value to every non Labor/greens voter.
His views highlight a truth, while he will not confront truth it lives in his posts.
He constantly reminds me much of Liberals words are untrue.
See we are electing a second grade Liberal team.
Yes brilliance lives there too, but sitting on that faction are a third grade front bench team, not all but most.
It is so, cry if you want to, under Gillards mountain of discontented voters, hidden from us all, Abbott is preparing to unload the biggest truck load of non core promises.
He need not promise anything.
He rarely dos.
Much of the fantasy stuff, carbon emission/mining tax is evil, we are broke, will haunt him after he wins.
But win he ill, unless Turnbull, yes the man could still be the best leader/treasurer we ever had, he has only two paper men , men without that some thing, to replace.

Dear Belly

Turnbull, or any present sitting conservative for that matter, is not the answer to either the blue, the red, or the green teams. Even the great white hope 'Big Clive' is unlikely to be the long awaited political Messiah, although I figure he's the best we can reasonably hope for in the immediate future. Fact is the major parties and even the smaller ones have lost their way. They have invariably got too full of their own importance and have effectively ignored their constituents.

What political party to date didn't consider its own survival took precedence over all else & compromize principles accordingly ?? What political party didn't willingly sell Australians out to offshore interests for a few coins ?? What political party didn't do everything in its power to sidestep accountability ?? Whilst the ALP faithful clearly can't bear to hear the truth, their own caucus is the architect of the partys doom. As the old saying goes 'too many cooks'. Has any Australian really asked themself 'why are yankees so patriotic whilst Australians really don't give a rats ?? Despite the myriad of bad features about the USA, citizens have somehow managed to dredge up a fanatacism about their homeland that others merely dream about. Obviously there are precious few halfway desirable yankee habits & customs, but if only we could put off the class-conscious subservience male bovine dropping we apparently inherited from the bleeding poms, we just might be able to consider the meaning of patriotism & thence demand far more from our elected officials.

Dear Prax.,

Thank You for your civility and explaining your
views to me. The point that I was simply trying to make
was that we should try to give thoughtful, intelligent
responses, and frankly avoid personal abuse and insults
no matter how strongly we feel justified in doing so.
We all need to be heard. Reasonably.

Dear Belly,

For me this discussion has now run its course.
What will be will be come September.
Hopefully, the voters will get it right.

Praxidice,
You notice that the programme I mentioned was the ABC 7.30. If it had been a commercial station the Labor supporters, like Lexi, would have been claiming bias and Laborphobia, Gillard bashing. However the ABC to them is Gods word so they make out it was all above board and in workers interests.

I suggest 7.30 did not disclose further because it would reveal another broken promise and ineptitude by Labor. For Labor, the announcement is the crucial part, non delivery is not important.

Banjo - You notice that the programme I mentioned was the ABC 7.30. If it had been a commercial station the Labor supporters, like Lexi, would have been claiming bias and Laborphobia, Gillard bashing. However the ABC to them is Gods word so they make out it was all above board and in workers interests

I didn't miss the ABC report, nor the News Ltd story claiming RAbbott & Company are already arranging to flog off both ABC and SBS. What I cannot understand is how 'workers' can look up to a mob that spend half their life shafting them. Can't everybody see its 'them' & everyone else, regardless what team is playing ??

While we are not electing miracle workers we too are not dumping dills.
Not all fit that, in both sides.
We more than any time in my life are a divided nation.
And prax thinks Clive can be of service?
Remember what the greens did to Labor.
Remember too the independents, all bar the Tassy Devil*refugees* from the Liberals pup the Nationals.
If I know any thing, at all, Liberal/Nationals would be better off with none of the above gaining seats in any house.
A divided house, needing deals, such as the infamous NSW upper house is anti democratic.
I would never live in Tasmania, its government is shattering!
Best I say no more there.
Points worth considering.
No government can please every one/ not all who complain actually understand why things take place.
And *for every act a government takes we can not see all the impacts until they take place*.
Measure the worth of politicians with both eyes open.

Dear Belly,

I judge politicians by their actions or
often their inactions.

I prefer a Party of activism rather than a Party
who can only condemn and offers us no solutions
of any substance and whose past record is
anything but "golden." I've lived under both Labor
governments and Liberal. I know which I prefer.
The enemy isn't conservatism, the enemy isn't
liberalism. The enemy is BS. And you know which Party
is full of that.

I in post after post above , at least I hope I have, said Labor has the better policy,s.
By about that country Mile times ten.
But Lexi you surely will agree, the current policy,s displayed or avoided, by Abbott,s circus are as untrustworthy as any ever put before us or our ancestors.
There Lexi is the painful truth, they still will not return us to government.
We, both of us, gloated when Dillard leads Abbott in the polls, but evenn then, even with such a failure in place, they will not vote for us.
Here is the very heart of the matter, we take dead and rotting meat, not our policy,s to a voting booth.
In June NSW FILTH will re-fire our opponents guns, we, so far have paid lip service, to a few FILTHY MINISTERS, and the maggots who fed on?
US! with them.
Try to see the uncommitted/the Gillard haters/Rudd lovers/the stark fear of our seeming soft actions against our intestinal worms and know, nothing you or I ever do, or can do will change the outcome.

Belly - nothing you or I ever do, or can do will change the outcome.

You can at least HELP to reform the ALP. There are far more party members than caucus. If every single one made a conscious decision to join forces and DEMAND the idiots in power recognize the wishes of the majority, the clowns would have no choice but to sit up and listen. One huge advantage the red-headed witch has provided is TIME, more than sufficient for the ALP grass-roots faithful to initiate the necessary revolution (if they choose to extract their digits). You have at least come to grips with the fact that the party has a bad infestation of maggots. As chinese philosopher Lau Tsu said, 'The journey of a thousand miles begins beneath one's feet' (usually incorrectly rendered as 'The longest journey begins with a singe step'). You've already made the first step by admitting the maggot infestion, now its a matter of convincing others. Get sufficient off their dots before September & you most definitely do have a chance of changing the otherwise inevitable outcome. Note that its infinitely more difficult for a political party to fight back from oblivion than to pull its socks up before falling over the precipice. If its any consolation, both the greens & the LNP also have their own infections however its doubtful if they have recognized it to date. Make no mistake, I don't like political parties, never have and never will, because it always ends up with the party line being more important than wishes of constituents. That said, its gonna be difficult to get rid of the things in the forseeable future so the next best thing is to kick the clowns at the top of the pile into submission. They must be taught they are there for the benefit of the sheeple and not for their own selfish interests, a situation common to all like organizations.

Belly,
I disagree with both you and Prax. Labors problems are not ONLY caused by the rats in NSW, but also because of the sheer incompedence of the present incompedence of labor in canberra.

I think it is far too late to do anything right now, but I said to you months ago the sooner there is an election then you can start to rebuild the party with reforms and better candidates.

I hope you and all other grass roots party members make your voices heard and demand drastic change.

As far as Abbott is concerned, we will just have to wait and see how he, and the libs, go. But do not count on his failure to get Labor back in office. Labor needs to change itself.

Dear Banjo

You are correct in claiming the ALP has more than one problem, however my point remains that the rats / maggotts / caucus whatever can't / won't fix whats broken, it needs to be done from grass-roots level. I don't however believe its necessarily 'too late', although given the apparent lack of interest at all levels it might as well be too late. Until or unless that ridiculous caucus disaster gets completely destroyed once and for all however, the ALP will always have a festering sore. Its undoubtedly the main factor in ALP disunity and the single most significant disadvantage it appears destined never to escape

Banjo, and for that matter Prax I am at least as aware as anyone of Labors fate and its faults.
But as you both have seen, in your case Banjo for years, I am not talking policy,s.
Yes BANJO AND PRAX but while the NSW FILTH, its power ceded by power brokers to them!
The HSU/NSW FILTH, are gut wounds the policy,s are in my view often brilliant.
And you both may add to this threads titles, such is the aura around this government, little attention is being paid to the policy,s and lack of them of our incoming government.
I would love to read what is said about this period and the incoming government in 25 years history will be made but not all of it good.
The policy,s of Labor are playing little or no part in this defeat, it is Gillard and her power brokers who have frightened the chooks.

Dear Belly,

Here's another link that may be of interest:

http://newmatilda.com/2013/05/23/just-who-playing-politics-treasury

Probably time we both let it die Lexi.
I needed no link to know that.
And of far more importance the voters, those who with no doubt have turned on us, will never look at that or any other positive for Labor.
It is strange, but vital, that my total support for the ALP and this government does not disappear in my frank honest words.
See at my birth Unions controlled the ALP, only those in my age group or older, will remember the faceless men taunt, the ALP rule, not always ignored but mostly, that to be in Parliament you had to be a union member.
As the big man in 1972 won we , at his hands, had distanced our selves but not much .
Then came Hawk and the accord, Labor had,for a short time controlled the unions.
Rudd was knifed Largely but not only, because Bill Ludwig owner of the QLD union I live for, never wanted to forgive a move Rudd sponsored in that state, to modifie union control.
Put your self in the shoes of those who came to us because of Rudd.
And those who for whatever reason are not one of the 22 percent who are unionists.
Then pop every male, make room for a big pile, who did not ever want Gillard, if honesty and understanding hurts so be it, Labor is unelectable, by its own actions, yet I hope we can limit the damage.
Only a new leader, any new leader highlighting our troubles and damning them, can save us, not the owner of many of them Gillard

As Ludwig did in a sleeping thread I too must waken a sleeping one to highlight a television show.
I here and elsewhere have spoken about todays Labor and made comparison with that of 1972 till 1975.
The achievements and pure joy and earth shattering self mutilation.
It was the first episode of the Withlam years, last night.
Hawk, some time ago talking of my party at the time the big fella took over the party, said words similar to these
*Labor {union controlled]was feeding on its self*
Within the first part we saw Union power very nearly vote a pure left to replace the big fella.
I rest my case, while future episodes will include Murdock turning from our lover to our death mask, if it follows the truth, it will show us, the ALP, loading the press and Liberal guns, as has been the case under GILLARD for them.
worth watching 7.30 ABC 0NE Sunday nights.