Even as labor and Julia Gillards numbers head seriously south, here we have the union movement, openly pledging their unconditional support for what will go down in modern history as the most wastefull, grossly incompetent government of our time.

It just goes to prove once and for all that the unions care more about keeping the libs out, than they do about how well the country is run, as not only have they openly pledged their unconditional support for labor, but they have offered the same support for Julia, despite the waste, missmanagement and total incompetence displayed by labor.

I hope their members are aware of this, as they are the ones who are funding this movement.

Dear rehctub,

The position of unionists makes sense to me.

The Liberal Party (just like its counterpart in the US - the Republican Party) is anti-labour.

Looking at it in this light, the unionists are just another social group fighting for their survival. Just like the economic elites who side with the Liberal Party want to maintain social hegemony over a working class.

If you want to see some pretty dreadful examples of how people have been treated then have a look at the history of anti-labour movements in the US, particularly in the second half of the nineteenth century.

Rechtub,
Do you seriously believe that Abbott's government will be an improvement?

Well, let's see now. We've got:
Joe Hockey, Shadow Treasurer who consistently gets his basic maths wrong;

Julie Bishop, Shadow Foreign Minister, ignorant of basic geography, and certainly lacking in the skills of diplomacy;

Christopher Pyne, Shadow Education Minister, never had a job in his life outside of politics - consistently demonstrates poor communication skills.

George Barndis, Shadow Attorney General, a man renowned for the single fact that his pomposity is in inverse proportion to his competence, and his pomposity is huge.

I'm so looking forward to watching you desperately trying to defend this pack come next year. That will be the only upside of an Abbott government.

I wonder how you feel about Abbott's plan to ensure that maximum profit from our mineral wealth goes to the overseas rich while Australians miss out.

As a trueblue Aussie, I'm sure you'll love that. Or maybe not.

And Abbott's plan to let corporations off the hook and make tax payers foot the bill for global warming efforts. I'm sure you think that's a wonderful plan too. Or maybe not.

Beware of what you wish for rechtub, because you might get it.
And in this case, I would give it about, oh, three months before you start hating the Coalition as much as you hate Labor now.

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Dear Anthonyve,

Please, no more, no more. I had such high hopes for all these people.

But I must say that when they get in they will definitely join forces with Barrel O'Farrell and declare total war on Australia's citizens. I'm just praying that they won't sell us into slavery to the Chinese.

Hi Mr Opinion,
Ouch!
Now you've really got me worried.
Anthony

IS IT OK?
Can any tell me how often I or any one on my side of the fence abuses whole class of people.
Rechtub in print has very often called me and labor supporters foul things.
If I reply in that fashion? we become nothing more than a trash talking site.
Red neck is not descriptive enough bloke.
A truth, voters unionists, workers, vote not in blocks never as told, no man or Rechtub, has the right to stop that.

Athonyv nice to see you back.
You are so very right.
6 Months in to a Liberal government the pain will arrive.
First however a truth.
Things are not near as bad as Rechtub thinks.
And as a member of the mentioned union let me say members vote as they wish not as told, by any one.
I have chucked in the towel,will work till I drop to prove myself wrong, but in truth Labors backers/owners should read the polls, and watch them go very much lower, this latest call for solidarity has added more heat than Rudd,s supporters can muster.
It, without doubt, further damages Labor

Hi there ANTHONYVE...

In closely examining your thread herein, can I take it you don't care for the individual expertise of those adroit members in the Liberal Party ? That said, I'm sure you'll not go so far as consciously disavowing them, by failing to give them your vote of continued assent ?

Hi there BELLY ol' mate...

You've been a little quiet lately, all's well I hope ? A question if I may ? Do you, (in your considered opinion) believe the average bloke in the rank and file of the various large Unions generally obey the wishes of their respective union leaders in terms of voting in general elections ?

The reason I ask, there are many 'talking heads' in the media claiming inter alia, there are many of those living in the traditional Labour seats here in Sydney, and in the other Capital Cities, who are turning in their droves towards the conservatives, so disillusioned are they with the continued alleged misfeasance of the PM and her crew ?

Butch, we gotta have unions, employees as individuals need a collective voice when dealing with employers. Consider that 10% of the globes population own 85% of its resource, and without unions they would own the lot.

I had no issue with the global union strife of the 1960’s and 1970’s; brewery strikes every Christmas, the wharfies and the rest filled the other parts of the year. That’s when the globalists planned to dismantle production in “our” world and ship it to the second and third, which they have now done.

The technology that manufacturing has embraced in the past 50 years has seen their fixed costs plummet. You don’t pay machines holidays or long service and you can write off a good part against your tax liability.

Factory floors that employed thousands now employ hundreds and the ones that employed hundreds now employ a dozen. I did not think it wrong for the few who still worked to ask for more. But that is not your issue with what pass for unions in Australia.

Our unions have lost the desire for equality. They have become private fiefdoms and a power base for the political wing of the Labor movement, which itself has become centerist and governed by international socialist protocols at the cost of the citizens.

All registered unions should be liable to legislation along these lines.

No elected official can hold office for more than two terms.
All deposed officials cannot run for office for two terms.
All union ledgers to be publically scrutinized every two years.
All donations to the political wing of the movement to stop.
All officials can have no more than two relatives on staff during their tenure.

Then we may have community respect and an honest passion for the betterment of members return to the movement.

Really Anthony.

Anthonyve>> Well, let's see now. We've got:
Joe Hockey, Shadow Treasurer who consistently gets his basic maths wrong;

I will give you Hockey, he is a simplistic creature of the pack, and in fact he would fit right into the front bench of the current Labor carcass…caucus.

>>Julie Bishop, Shadow Foreign Minister, ignorant of basic geography, and certainly lacking in the skills of diplomacy;<<

Stephen Smith was hardly a world stage diplomat when Rudd appointed him.

In 2007 Bishop said that the states had hijacked our school curriculum and lefty ideology of dumb the smart ones down, rather than giving the bright ones a chance purveyed. She wanted the development of national education standards as well as performance-based pay for teachers.

Shoot forward to six years later, In December 2012 a global literacy survey found our kids come LAST out of all the English speaking nations, LAST.

She’s a smart girl, but I have a subtle contempt for lawyers in principal.

Christopher Pyne, Shadow Education Minister, never had a job in his life outside of politics - consistently demonstrates poor communication skills.

Peter Garrett went to uni did an arts and then a law degree, the eternal student, then he sang for his supper until the brawling scourge of Sydney cabbies, Latham found him. Hardly a tutor.

George Barndis, Shadow Attorney General, a man renowned for the single fact that his pomposity is in inverse proportion to his competence, and his pomposity is huge.

Anthony what is the name of that woman, recently departed that wanted legislation stopping freedom of the press, freedom of verbal conversation and a tear drop from somebody could send you to Jail. That’s right Nicola Roxon. She would shut you up if you didn't sing her praises.

Anthony they are all self and ideology serving before they throw a crust to us. If you back “this” Labor government it is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black sport.

sonofgloin, I have not suggested that we have no unions, I just want to know why on earth they (unions, nit union members) are offering their unconditional support for both labor and Julia, despite the ampaulimg track record they have achieved in less than five years.

I can only assume it's a case of not supporting the libs at any cost, and to my way of thinking, that is a closed mined, brain washed attitude.

Now I ask those die hard labor supporters, do you really think we would be where we are today, had labor not come to power back in 07,remembering we had some 20 billion inn the bank, which is now some 150 billion in the red and counting.

Belly, as to your suggestion that things are not as bad as I suggest, please advise at what point you feel we should start to worry, remembering where we came from back in the mid 90's, where the libs left us in 07, and where we are today, not five years latter.

rechtub,
yes, I do believe that we would be in the same position as we are now if the Coalition had been in power.

Actually, I would argue we would be in a much worse position because I doubt if the Coalition would have stimulated the economy during the GFC, (given their belief that the working class should always pay/suffer if the economy is hurting because it's always the workers' fault - according to them).

If we look at the work of Joseph Steigleitz, the Nobel Prize winning economist, we find that right wing austerity policies during times of poor economic performance are exactly the wrong ones.

Yet everywhere we see right wing governments destroying weakened economies with their ideological love of watered down Friedmanism, which has been utterly discredited, but that doesn't stop Abbott et al from dreaming.

So, yes, there is every reason to believe that the Coalition would have harmed Australia enormously with the flawed, disproven policies they would have implemented during and after the GFC.

Hi sonofgloin,
I concede the point. None of them are really worth recruiting.

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Rechtub I will still have that beer with you if we meet.
Truth is mate you are not as informed as you think.
An open mind learns a closed one does not.
You my friend are a red neck.
SOG you spoke in the climate change thread about not needing to research or read other views.
You told me you build your case on personal observations, what you see around you.
It shows mate!
I want to inform you of true state of union members and how they vote.
One member left ban urgent message HE MUST SEE ME,I drove 200 klm stepped out of my car and he wanted to fight!union had sent him a vote Kevin 07 pamphlet.
A hundred such things happened ,workers are vas good as any one, and vote as they wish, if I said, in any post, ever all conservative voters areas Rechtub, bless him in his heated unkowing rants does?

Dear Belly,

This thread is about the behaviour of unions.

Not about you driving 200km to beat up someone who didn't agree with you.

o sung wo, first my friend I value Anthonyv as one of the most informed posters we have, currently we both a riding a near dead horse.
Bloke a had a lot to say about this in my thread Labors policys.
It will sound big headed but my greatest joy in my work life came from the knowledge my members trusted me,and still do.
Unfortunate habit, saying it like it is got me that joy.
NO union members do not let them selves be lead, in fact any honest review will show they voted for John Winston Howard, not Labor, until work choices.
Now while we are on that matter with 6 packed lunch rooms to visit and less than an hour to do it, I selected second place, following the militant CFMEU bloke.
At election time his handouts hit the rubbish bins as he left the sheds.
Construction workers sometimes by long hours six or seven day weeks, own multiple houses ,some times and believe me bloke, vote Liberal, any thing but greens, if we are around in say ten years the ALP will be much reformed and greens not existing.
I am unwell, have been for a while but not dieing yet all the best good friend.
PS Liberal booth worker sneaked the information she voted for Kevin, so brands do not work, ewe are a better country for that.

A truth, voters unionists,
Belly,
Hang on a second, you've got the word truth in tandem with the word unions. How does that work ?

Anthonyve, what evidence do you have to support that claim, as the way I see it is that when the libs came to power in the mid 90's, they were left with a massive debt (or at least we thought it was at the time), then, they went about the task of not only repaying that debt, but, they also managed to have money in the bank, our money, that labor wasted, plus another 150 odd billion IN LESS THAN FIVE YEARS.

Furthermore, there was confidence within the people and the workforce and, we didn't rely almost solely on mining. In fact, nobody cared about mining until labor run out of options to fill the MASSIVE hole they had dug.

Of cause there was work choices, which was really really bad for all concerned. Apparently!

I am basing my assumption on history, what are you basing yours on?

Belly, I would love to have that beer one day and talk about fotty or perhaps even cricket. Anything but politics, because just because we have different opinions, doesn't make us enemies.

Good evening to you BELLY ol' man...

Just as I thought. All union members are individuals, and as such they cast their vote according to their own personal principles and conscience. Not at the instruction of a Union Boss.

Why I asked, I heard on 'talk back' Radio the other day some 'peanut', an ultra-conservative, even worse than 'me', rang in claiming members of Trade Unions voted as directed by their Union bosses ? A claim I felt to be patently absurd ?

I realise BELLY this Forum, is essentially for public consumption, therefore any sense of privacy is pointless. However, I noticed you'd said that you've been 'unwell', and not on your diet ? Look ol' friend I do hope you're travelling OK, and your current state of being unwell is both minor and very temporary ? It's often said we blokes don't take particularly good care of ourselves, ignore Doctor's instruction, carry too much weight, drink excessively etc. etc. But BELLY, at our age's, best we take just a bit more care of ourselves, then we did, thirty or forty odd years ago ? I'm not sticking my nose into anyone's business, just showing a bit of concern for a 'likeminded soul' if you prefer ? So please take it easy ol' mate !!

Rechtub I agree.
o sung wo, gday mate, well believe me I am trying, and under care , see the expert this week, what will be will bloke.
While we differ in politics bloke so do many of my mates, one constantly shouting me down but grinning while he does it.
A thought, if we look we can see union members/bosses/Labor members/voters named here in the very dirtiest terms.
Is this hung Parliament, and HSU ALP wrongs starting something bad?
Is blind hate emerging?
I try very hard, to be balanced in my posts, yes they get heated, but only saying what I think.
It has always been so, both sides of politics, after a time in office, and after undoing some of its oponents acts, that team too needs replacing and falls.
Labor is about to fall over Gillard and its power brokers shoe laces!

Just because a unions is useless doesn't make it's members useless also. I was a very small scope rep in the AWU but pulled out when I realised they weren't really interested in making things better for their members. Most of the members were decent people who just wanted it a little better to what they got in comparison to the bureaucrats who dictated every move to them & only made things worse. When the union refused to confront the bureaucrats I gave the union a miss because I couldn't keep promising what I realised the union would never deliver because of it's affiliation with the Government.

Rechtub,
The key part of your response is, 'how I see it'.
My position is that you are seeing it wrongly.
As per usual perhaps?
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Individual, in the US the minimum wage is just under $8/hour.
Obama's suggestion that it goes to a little under $9/hour is being fought bitterly by congress people funded by corporations.
In Australia the minimum wage is - from memory as I'm travelling - $15.96/hour.
That difference is due in no small part to unions and regulations governing how wages are negotiated.
Now, one could argue that the Australian minimum wage is too high.
My resonse would be to try living on $400/week, when average rentals chew up more than half that.
A large percentage of US workers are working poor.
Many Walmart employees depend on food stamps to get by.
In summary, there is an important place in our society for some method of protecting workers who cannot individually negotiate effectively with a corporation.
In short, there is a place for unions.
And if corporations can own the Coalition, then why shouldn't the labor movement have a political party as well?
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Belly>> SOG you spoke in the climate change thread about not needing to research or read other views.
You told me you build your case on personal observations, what you see around you.
It shows mate!<<

Belly I hope you get better.

You keep on “throwing up” the comment I made about not believing the data and conclusions the pro man made global warming scientists offer us. I can’t get past the proven lies fed to us previously, if you can great.Your line of fire intimates that I believe in no science, but I believe in physics. Had I lived 2000 years ago I would have believed the earth was the centre of the universe, 700 years ago I would have believed the earth was flat.

Just because I question a group of already discredited men of science does not make me a Philistine. Scientists have been wrong before and scientists have altered their perceptions to suit a master before, such as the hold the church had over the terms of reference scientists could work from for nearly 2000 years.

What any of this has to do with my post on union’s escapes me?
I said:
No elected official can hold office for more than two terms.
All deposed officials cannot run for office for two terms.
All union ledgers to be publically scrutinized every two years.
All donations to the political wing of the movement to stop.
All officials can have no more than two relatives on staff during their tenure.

If these rules were implemented you would not have the HSU travesty.
How am I clueless with that observation?
Also tiger, with a two term turnover of all elected officials more members from the rank and file would have a chance of being elected and bring REAL understanding of what the members need to the executive.

Nah china, you’re just having a go because it was me who said it. You should have posted views along the same line but you didn’t did you?

Anthonyve,
The minimum wage is not the culprit, the high wages are.

And if corporations can own the Coalition, then why shouldn't the labor movement have a political party as well?

The union's one big fault is to align themselves with political parties. If they didn't they could & would do what they should do. Work on keeping income responsible & fair. But they don't do they ? Why don't they ? Because they're constrained by their political underlings who line the union bosses' wallets.

You see Anthonyve, there in lies the problem, as you expect a person to survive on the minimum wage, raising a family and ONLY WORKING 38 hr/week.

In the 90's along came the system that allowed one to raise a family, while someone else paid the bill.

So your average min wage earner, with a partner and three kids is quite well off, with TAX FREE welfare, rent assistance, health care card, bulk billing, the list goes on, all paid for by someone else.

When I was a kid, you either gained skills and found a good paying job, or, you resigned yourself to a life of long hours. Now I don't have a problem with that, but no doubt you do.

Nnthe US minimum wage earners often work more than one job and, imdoubt they get taxed half of their second job earnings.

Then there are this who do very well on the min wage, due to tips.

Ifmthey are GREAT AT THEIR JOB , they get reward, not by the system, but by the PAYING CUSTOMER.

Now what's wrong with that I ask!

Rechtub,

See, right there, that's your problem.

You either don't absorb what you're reading or you don't think about it.

Far from advocating that people live on $400/week, I'm saying the EXACT opposite: that this is an example of what happens when workers are forced to fend for themselves against corporations.

Thus you entirely failed to grasp the point.

Now, as to your assertion that maximum wages are the problem. Well, first what is the problem you refer to?

That Australia is not competitive? Blame the AUD for that, not wages.

That we're not competitve?
A close analysis of investment divided by output, which is the measure of competitiveness, shows that the biggest reason why we're not competitive is that mining investment has been spent but the incomes are only now coming on stream. In other words, there is no particular problem with competitiveness.

That we have a a mining tax? Well hardly. The super profit mining tax on oil drilling imposed by the Norwegian government is 75%; has been for years and guess what - the oil companies are still there and they are still highly profitable.

That we have a large national debt? Sorry, our national debt is one of the lowest in the developed world.

That our unemployment is high? Er, sorry, no cigar this time either as our unemployment is among the lowest in the developed world.

So, rechtub, you flood these pages with endless bleats about how awful things are, but you never QUANTITATIVELY define what exactly is wrong.

Meanwhile the hard, measurable data tells us that Australia is doing very well indeed.

SO why not give yourself a break and be happy for once.

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

how awful things are, but you never QUANTITATIVELY define what exactly is wrong.
Anthonyve,
Your post paints such a rosy picture , one could say how good things are, but you never QUANTITATIVELY define what exactly is right.

Individual,

You make a very good point.

But here's a counter argument: government legislation hugely influences the extent to which workers are able to take action to defend legitimate positions.

See Work Choices (when in was around),for example, and laws about what constitutes right to strike, etc.

So, if the labour movement doesn't have political representation then the laws would become so stacked against workers that they would have no chance.

This is precisely what has happened in the US, where middle class incomes have fallen steadily for the past thirty years.

Now, if the Right is to be believed then this pattern of falling wages should be making the US more competitive, yet the exact opposite is happening.

So, I argue that the labour movement does need representation at government level to ensure that the ground rules for employer/employee negotiations are fair and reasonable.

We could say that being aligned with a political party is not the best way to achieve that, which may be true.

But how else do we achieve that fair an banaced playing field?

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

But how else do we achieve that fair an banaced playing field?
Anthonyve,
A flat tax will provide the most level playing field. Unemployment can be reduced drastically by a national service paid for with the money that's presently wasted on fake social security & associated bureaucracy.

Hi Belly,

I didn't know you were under the weather.

Best wishes for speedy get well.

Recently had a bout of prostate cancer myself, but I'm pleased to say that my PSA seems to be telling me a good story after some less than pleasant treatment.

Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Individual,

Yeah, the national service idea has popped up from time to time.

The problem is that the evidence suggests that if it's a voluntary system there would be precious few starters, and if it was a compulsory system it would be monumentally unpopular.

As far as I know, no party would touch it for that reason. It's generally considered to be a guaranteed election loser.

So the argument goes, anyway.

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Individual,
Re your ealier post.

But I did exactly that.

I listed out what rechtub might argue could be wrong with the nation and stated the reality of the situation.

These are not my opinions, they are the reality of the situation and the data is widely available.

It's contrary data that isn't available, because there pretty much isn't any.

And if you mean did I present all the supporting data, then the answer is, no I didn't. But, - big but - among economists and statisticians the points I made are accepted as given.

For example, nobody is questioning the fact that Australia's unemployment rate is amongst the lowest in the developed world. There is no contrary data, so why should I be presenting data to support what is not in question?

All of the points I made are not in the least contentious. Au contrare, they're accepted by government, academia and business.

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

"When I was a kid, you either gained skills and found a good paying job, or, you resigned yourself to a life of long hours. Now I don't have a problem with that,"
What many here do not realise, what rehctub has posted is true. When the young rehctub was growing up in 19th century London that's how it was. And now, as the all grown up arch conservative, rehctub don't want things to change. Understandable.

Good afternoon to you ANTHONYVE...

I was drawn to your comments relating the the masses of the working poor in the US. I found much of what you said rang true. Indeed, there're millions of folk in America (many African American) who need two jobs merely to pay their mortgage, or rent, let alone put bread and butter on the table.

There are at the least, 65-70% of all Patrolmen in the Elizabeth NJ, Police Department have second jobs. Elizabeth is considered the absolute 'arm pit' of the New york area, being the Shipping Port for New York City. A place, just seven miles (as the crow flies) from Manhattan, also the Site for the TV Drama,'The Sopranos'. I spent three full days as a guest of that Department, including (a 2300-0700 shift) 'ride along' with the shift supervisory (mobile) sergeant. I was dumbfounded at what I saw !

At 'muster', after being introduced to the entire Shift (60+), the single question that was put to me (continually) '...are there vacancies down there in 'Orstralia', and are they hiring there...' ? Their job is so incredibly damn dangerous, and I do mean dangerous ! (Sorry, this is well off the topic!) Their second job from what many told me included, 'Mall' Security, Security for Sporting events; Car Rental returns to Newark Airport; CIT for booths along the New Jersey Turnpike etc.

May I aquaint you with two excellent books for your further enlightenment ANTHONYVE ?

(a) 'Deer Hunting with Jesus', Dispatches from America's Class wars ;

and

(b) 'Rainbow Pie', A Redneck Memoir.

Both books are authored by Joe BAGEANT (dec) and they're absolutely brilliant ! If one is interested in the plight of America's working underclass, trying to just 'live' ! And at the same time, trying to compete with cheap Mexican Labour just over the Rio-Grande.

It's known that I'm not greatly enamoured with those from the preposterous world of 'conjecture or academia' and you can be assured and confident that Joe BAGEANT is certainly not an academic, his principles are far too high for that !

o sung wu, Very interesting what you have to say about pay rates US style, where the rich get richer and the poor well they can please themselves. Will check on Monday for those 2 books you recommended.
As a fan of Michael Moore I do like his Capitalism A Love Story.

that if it's a voluntary system there would be precious few starters
Anthonyve,
Who's talking about voluntary ? If we left all other things like paying tax or paying fines or paying rates etc. up to volunteers what do you think would happen ? There'd be no need for a Labor Government because we'd be broke up front.
A national service of two years duration is what's needed. That way everyone's pulled their weight up front & I guarantee we'll have way more mature 21 year olds than we've had in the past 40 years thanks to big Goaf. If I can't demand a 19-21 year old to put in an effort towards being useful members of our society than why should they have the right to demand that I contribute tax for them ? It's a two-way street ! I haven't worked my way towards a lousy existence on a lousy pension with a worn-out body so that the young can have it all without any effort ? Get real ! I paid back what the generation before me gave me & I expect the same from the next generation.
And, I expect some justice but so far I'm still waiting. I don't owe this country anything anymore, I have sacrificed way more than I'm getting.

Paul1405,
the rich only get richer because the poor are constantly buying off the rich. Also, they keep voting for the incompetent.

Hi o sung wu,

I haven't read either of those books, but they're now on my reading list.

Many thanks.

Interesting to hear about your experiences with the police over the pond.

I'm a passionate believer in free enterprise, but I equally passionately believe that it works best when properly regulated.

I'm convinced that in the US their ideological belief that capitalism can solve any problem and that a government can't be too small, has led to an imbalance where vested interests in pursuing their own goals are hindering the national interest.

Capitalism can solve most problems efficiently, but it never acts in the nation's interests, (because that's not its job), hence - I believe - the need for prudent government regulation to ensure a balance between the two sets of often competing interests.

The US Supreme Court ruling on the Citizens United case has created a monster that perfectly illustrates my point.

I'm wondering how messy it will get when the US political pendulum finally starts to swing back towards the centre, as it inevitably will, but not from pressure from within Washington.

The other thing that struck me in reading of your experiences is that it must be nigh on impossible to prevent corruption in such a low paid police force doing such dangerous work; especially as it sounds as though morale is low.

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

If we take a quick look at our economy.
For the sake of debate say we area city of a million.
10% rich and do not work
10% the big export producers we need to stay afloat.
And those who work? 45%
Now if we increase the wages is it not true we increase the profits of those who feed and cloth workers.
What if Rechtub was treasurer? and he got his wish, slash the workers wages.
Is it not plainly true apart from those exporters our economy would shrink?
I repeat a truth, worker or million air, Rechtubs view workers and the poor vote Labor, imposing a nonexistent horror on this country is wrong.
Head of local nats branch worked with me as a road Laborer and has the seat out of his pants.
In that area Anthonyv but still waiting diagnosis.

individual, Possibly we should introduce a "democratic" system where only the "right types" get a vote, eg the landed gentry and business owners, plus landlords of course,thta goes without saying. Naturally it also goes without saying,no woman, and certainly non of that working class riffraff, heaven forbid. When some bolshie, commie, pinko fool introduced universal suffrage as some ridiculous social experiment, just look what we got prime Ministers without titles, and even some who freely admitted they we from the low order. I was beside my self when Sir Robert pass on and then that horrid Whitlem fellow, no title, not even a KMCG, can you believe that, freely sitting in Sir Robert's chair, Sir Robert's chair, without not as much as a beg your pardon, from that offish, oh!...words escape me. I say. do you know there are rumors, that a black person, yes a black person, may well find her way, yes a black woman, what next a gay person in the house, perish the thought! heaven forbid. Hopefully it is all nasty rumor and after this silly election thing the house will be filled with the right people, people of class and breeding,those of us born to rule, good Liberal people, we can hope for nothing less
As you rightly pointed out they (the poor) keep voting for the incompetent" The above will certainly fix that problem.
p/s Sure you weren't born in the 19th century?

Paul1405,
Why is it because you're incapable of looking outside the square resorting to ridicule is your only alternative. Read again what I wrote & direct & try to understand by trying to think in an unselfish manner rather than the standard australian mentality of me, me, me. rather than just dismissing my proposals tell all of us here why young people should be excempt from pulling their weight. provide an explanation instead of just weaseling your way out of not having a reasonable answer. Explain why you think some should have the burden of supporting others who are too lazy to put in an effort.

Now if we increase the wages is it not true we increase the profits of those who feed and cloth workers.
Belly,
No wonder Australia has gone into reverse if that is the reasoning of the Labor movement.
Whenever the blue collar brigade gets a 3% increase it's only seconds later that the Public servants get a 10% increase. The economics of union thinking are WRONG ! What more proof do we need ? With the unions thinking the gap between the haves & have nots is widening rather than narrowing. We need a narrowing of the gap not a widening! No-one on the public payroll should be above what private enterprise pays for good performers. No wonder Australians are seen as the world's biggest bludgers.

To anyone who thinks we are in great shape, ask your self this very simple question.

Where did we come from, where are we now, and where are we headed if our direction as a nation doesn't change.

Remember, I am only talking about FIVE YEARS AGO, and let's say the next five years.

Now as for leadership, our problem is that labor today care more about retaining/ winning votes than they do about good policy.

If you have gone seriously backwards in five years, it's only fair to assume that the next few years will be painful, unless of cause you want more of the same.

Now as for me wanting to slash wages, that's simply not true, as I clearly state that LOW SKILLED WAGES are too high. Nothing more.

"No wonder Australians are seen as the world's biggest bludgers."
Besides YOU individual Who see's us as the world's biggest bludgers? I give my fellow Australians much more credit than you ever will. You want to shackle millions, yes millions of Australians with the idiotic notion of "A (compulsory and universal) national service of two years duration is what's needed."
A total un-costed notion, with absolutely no thought what so ever to the how, when and why of the whole idiotic idea.
When its put to you, you fail to answer the most basic of questions about YOUR idea of national service.
Please tell how? To help you about 1,000,000 would be directly affected by your universal scheme, another 1,000,000 would be preparing to enter your scheme following school, or have come out of it and trying to restart their dislocated lives. Not to mention the 'army' required to run and administer the whole thing, or will it just run itself.
As I said before there is a place for schemes which truly help the school lever and the long term unemployed develop life skills and help with their self worth etc. There is always a place for good schemes which help the socially disadvantaged develop and become more productive members of society. A universal boot camp (my words) with a one size fits all approach is not the answer. Although to some it may seem a good idea at the time.

Good evening ANTHONYVE...

I'm not sure whether there was much corruption within that Department ? Morale was not that high, nor was there any real evidence of genuine camaraderie either for that matter ? Words like cynicism, suspicion, and negativity, featured daily with everything that I saw ? I was accorded considerable respect, despite the fact I'd been in the job for quite sometime myself, I just felt they had a fairly low opinion of me, both as a brother officer and detective.

It was almost like, they viewed their circumstances with 'worldly eyes' whereas they thought I still had much to learn ?

There was this sergeant (uniformed) who, though quite cordial towards me, would let slip these little 'mutterings' like,'...well, well, well, we've this guy all the way from 'Orstralia' come here, and tell us all how to do it chuckle chuckle chuckle...' ? I gather he had his 'ticket punched', and his 'twenty in', thus he could retire any time he wished on a full (lifetime) City pension. Yet inexplicable, I felt he resented me, for reasons totally beyond my comprehension ?

Yet in 1986 and again in 1987 I attended two fulltime (live-in) Schools with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (the FBI). Their attitudes, professionalism, in fact everything about them, was quite different to the experiences I had with US Police forces. These FBI blokes were often disparagingly referred to, as 'College Cops' !

Therefore, in order to be considered a candidate, as a Special Agent with the FBI, one needed to have graduated from College (University) in an approved Degree. So I suppose if anything, these 'Special Agents' were better educated than the ordinary American, 'rank and file' police officer - moreover many of the police officers themselves, wanted to join the Bureau, as it's universally called over there. Without an approved Degree from College, they had no chance unfortunately. The training at Quantico VA, is both exhaustive and protracted.

I must apologise. I'm totally off the topic at hand. Showing my rapidly advancing dotage ?

Hi there PAUL1405...

It is indeed interesting the way they (Americans) seem to equate everything around an hourly rate of pay ? Even the coppers, it would seem.

Furlough as many of them call their holidays seems to be calculated on years spent on the job. Of course I'm speaking of police specifically here. They don't get anywhere near what Oz coppers get in terms of leave. No loading, very little it would seem. The first five years all they seem to receive is 2 weeks 'paid furlough' every twelve months ? That's it !

Their rates of pay, other benefits we take for granted here, are tougher over there. That said PAUL1405, they still seem to do alright these coppers, despite all the whinging. They are generally quite comfortable in their homes, so the salary seems adequate, thus OK. I've had the privlidge of spending time in at least 15 to 18 separate homes of law enforcement members I've known over there, police and Bureau SA's. It does give me a fair sample of their respective standards of living, compared to ourselves. They all have their family - wives, children, animals, usually two cars. They aren't too badly off !

In fact PAUL1405, you'll not believe this...In three cases, the members concerned (detectives) were driving around (privately) in these large, late model American cars, that had been officially seized (proceeds of organised crime) and forfieted to the County !

And these police members were availing themselves fully, to the lawful use of these vehicles for their own private purposes ? Apparently quite legal and judiciously mandated by the respective Legal Authorities. As I said, they do enjoy many little perks as police, as do the 'emergency services' do, to a far lesser degree, all over the world.

Besides YOU individual
Paul1405,
Besides YOU Paul everyone seems to be aware of it. You show me ANY other country's citizens who do their darnest to run their own country into the ground & keep asking for more & more wage increases in return & send our manufacturing overseas. You're just lucky they only call you bludgers instead of the term you really deserve. As for my proposing how to pay for a national service (don't worry you'll be exempt from serving due to lack of sense) I have already put forward plenty of ideas. Unless of course you're so devoid of imagination that I'd literally have to spell every single word for you to grasp the idea of national service.
The one main reason why Australia went backwards is the removal of national service by big Goaf simply to get more silly lefties' votes. He actually got more votes than he bargained for because he got the stupid ones as well.

"No wonder Australians are seen as the world's biggest bludgers." You individual present this outrages opinion of yours as fact. When asked to substantiate your nonsense of an opinion by offering evidence to support what you say, there is noting, not a word. Support for your statement could be something like a world leader agreeing with you. For instance if President Obama was to say when addressing the Nation "My fellow Americans... today I must inform you of a bigger menace confronting America, I want you to, forget about al-Qaedaa, forget about the Taliban, a much bigger evil confronts us today... The Aussie Bludger, no I did not say Aussie Burger that's bludger with a 'B'...so on and so forth, yuda, yuda, yuda, etc etc...." there's your evidence of a kind!
Without evidence to support your rubbish you post this in relation to your biggest bludgers rubbish; "everyone seems to be aware of it" Who on earth are "everyone" your drinking buddies down the pub. You can have your opinions for what they are worth, but please do not try and present them as fact unless you can back up what you say, p/s Fact has to be a bit more than Buff and Yabba from the boozer agreeing with you.
When can I expect a detailed summation of your universal "National Service" clap trap, today, tomorrow most likely never as you are all P&W with it

Individual,
I get the feeling you've never actually been to another country, let alone got a feel for working comparisons, because how you compare Australia with other places is essentially nonsense.

In no way are Australians bludgers.

In the course of my corporate career, I've run manufacturing operations in Australia, (ABB Transformer factories and FASCO Motors), China (ABB Shanghai Transformer Co) Hong Kong (A division of ABB), and Thailand (Invensys and Fasco Motors (Thailand) Pty Ltd.

I would put Australian workers up against workers anywhere for effort, conscientiousness and commitment to quality.

I found the Australian unions to be extremely cooperative when Lean Enterprise techniques were introduced to the factories.

You and rechtub both seem to think that Australia is in terrible shape and that Australian workers aren't any good, so let me ask you a question.

If Australia is so bad - in your eyes - then which country do you consider to be better? And why? Okay, two questions.

Anthony
http://www.observaitonpoint.com.au

Anthonyv it is my sad task , a front row forward from way back to agree with your thoughts here.
Our Indy, in his prime, would never have kept up with me.
It was my joy to try to out work every one.
In QLD off siding then driving cane trains, then 8 more hours driving a truck for plantation owners not on the rail, in then but gone now Walaville Mill.
Never left a job that the boss did not offer me more to stay.
See indy probably never left our his home town, and probably never did a days work in his life.
Following the anti workers diatribes here is telling.

Anthonyve,
Yeah, I know people like you who have been all over the place & gained so much experience yet when back in Australia all that expertise goes out the window. We have engineers who couldn't make enough money to pay for a sandwich if they were to be rewarded for their expertise. It's the just as useless bureaucrats who pay them with our tax dollar. You ask why I think Australia is so bad ? I can't actually recall saying Australia being so bad I do however recall saying that many Australians are bludging too much off the average tax payer. Australia is in danger of being bad & even worse than many other countries because the people have become too blasé. If you don't think there's a lot of bludging going then you're either very corrupt or very blind not to see what's going on. Our tax system alone is based on bludging. Public service benefits are bludger based. It's all about getting as much as possible for as little as possible. Deny that one for a start. Ps you say you're with ABB, well, I have given up on the flow meters.
The second reason for saying these things about Australia is that what we call Australia now is so remote from the Australia of pre Goaf. You are making the same mistake as most other Australians. Just because it still is one of the best places you argue that it is wrong to draw attention to the fact that due to so many selfish & bludging Australians the country has begun sliding more & more towards pleasing the bludgers instead of planning for a sustainable future. It's because of people like you lefties with your wealth of inexperience despite having experience you that we won't be saying g'day mate in 20 years, it'll be assalamualaikum.

Anthonyve, You seem to be new to this forum, and as yet you do not know our fellow poster Mr Individual. I do believe that Mr Individual hails from La La Land, better known as The Deep Deep North, where men are men and sheilas do as they'd told. In this wonderland where the thoughts of the great one, The Mad Katter rain supreme, and the locals pray at the shrine of their gods, Ole Joh and Lady Flo. Every year on the 31st February their National Day (in the Deep Deep North they don't have daylight saving so they save it up and stick it on the end of February) they bake pumpkin scones, naturally to the original Lady Flo recipe. and of course they consume copious quantities of XXXX, beer that is, not condoms. Children are not allowed to consume alcohol in the Deep Deep North, anyone under the age of 7 found with a XXXX, is punished severally indeed, they are made down a box of that southern crap Tooheys Spew, the DDN's recken' it will kill a brown dog, so no worries with the kids!
Anthonyve if you are thinking of visiting The Deep Deep North, I advise be prepared to undertake so serious drinking. if you can't down a XXXX quicker than a local can say "I love Campbell Newman" they will label you a Bob Brown and make you drink charrdy for the rest of your stay.
You ask, what do the locals do when they are not throwing steers, or wrestling crocodiles. they do wheelies in their unregistered ute, of course, with 5 in the back. and it goes without saying an esky full of XXXX, with Indi at the wheel.
p/s To visit The Deep Deep North, you wont need a visa, just a copy of the ranting of Chairman Joh, that will get you in, I'm sure.

Anton, at no point in his thread have I said Australian workers are poor workers, And as for which country is better than Auss, may I remind you that simply being better than the rest does not make you good.

What I do think that if not for work choices, chances are labor would not have been voted in, our borders would be secure and I seriously doubt the amount of VERY COSTLY stuff ups would have occurred.

Let's face it, everyone's entitled to make a mistake, but every thing they have touched they have stuffed up.

I puzzles me how the unions can see no wrong in what this mob have done to us in just five years.

Paul1405,
i'll let you think of a description of yourself because I can't be bothered looking into the depths of thesauruses for an apt term.
Bob katter's mongrel dog has more sense than you'll ever muster.

Individual,
All that's left to say is to point out the old adage, "Change is life and life is Change"

Better get used to it as you can't stop it, and there ain't no going back,

At least this way you won't be so filled with bitterness towards so many people.

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

rechtub,

Your wild generalizations remove any last vestige of credibility you might have had.

"every thing they have touched they have stuffed up"

What nonsense.

I would point out, yet again, the following:

Right now, today, Australia has among the lowest unemployment in the developed world;

During the GFC, Australia did not even go into recession, and a Labor government was in place the entire time;

We have among the lowest levels of public sector debt in the developed world;

We are generally considered to be the the most successful country in the world in becoming an effective multicultural society;

Our interest rates are the lowest they've been for many years;

And this is after Labor has been in power for more than four years.

I could go on and on, but that is quite enough to demonstrate the absurdity of your proposition as quoted.

I suspect you're letting your hatred get ahead of your common sense.

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Paul 1405,

When interacting with individual you have to keep in mind that you are not dealing with an intellectual giant, hence his oft and hasty retreat to abuse.

We've all been on the receiving end at one time or another, especially those with a brain, which is a condition that individual particularly resents.

He tries hard, but, well, he's not yet able to sit at the grown up's table.

We have to be patient.

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Gee Paul, you could be on TV promoting our buitiful Queensland, you know, Hoges style.

Anton...Right now, today, Australia has among the lowest unemployment in the developed world;

Yep, it's just a pitty that ONE HOUR PER WEEK is considered as employed. It doesn't even need to be paid work.

...During the GFC, Australia did not even go into recession, and a Labor government was in place the entire time;

Yep, sure does help to have had hard saved money in the bank hey. The key words being HAVE HAD.

....We have among the lowest levels of public sector debt in the developed world;

Yep, with a very small population, relying very heavily on mining, and our debt has gone from some $20billion IN THE BANK to some $150billion IN THE RED in JUST FIVE ODD YEARS.

....We are generally considered to be the the most successful country in the world in becoming an effective multicultural society;

Yet many don't assimilate,, nor do they respect our nation or our ways, so what does that achieve? Very little I'm afraid.

....Our interest rates are the lowest they've been for many years;

And that's in a desperate effort to stimulate the economy, which is failing as lack of confidence is causing many to use the extra to reduce debt.

....I could go on and on, but that is quite enough to demonstrate the absurdity of your proposition as quoted.

Yes, so could I, but I think EVERYONE KNOWS the extent of the stuff ups by this incompetent mob, from pink bats to out of control borders, but hey, why let the truth get in the way of a good story, hey Anton!

Given that you are such a strong supporter of Julia, I feel for you as you will be in no-mans land come September, bring it on I say!

Anton, I just don't get it, how you, or anyone for that matter, can call this governments past five odd years, a success.

You say we dodged a bullet, when it came to a recession, yet, if not for the shape the nation was in, at hand over, we would not have been able to maintain the out of control borrowings that were the reason why we avoided the recession.

I can't imagine the coalition would have the capacity to borrow some 1200 billion dollars, which is essentially what labor has done, when they took our borrowings from minus 20 to plus 150 billion. About 8 fold.

You can keep spending, or in this case, wasting, as much money as you want, just keep borrowing money, at least until the bank says no!

Just prey that we don't loose mining.

Poor old rechtub,

Such inaccuracies are hardly worth responding to.

But this I will say, i'm not a supporter of Julia, but I am a supporter of fair mindedness; of dealing with facts; of not letting emotion and blind hatred distort reality.

Thus I take issue with the wildly over exxagerated nonsense you push.

Some people are never happy unless they're hating someone. I feel sorry for you as you appear to be one of these.

I'm just wondering if it might be that your own managerial ineptitude led you to lose a bundle of money and now you're desperately searching for someone else to blame.

Ah, thinks the old butcher, blame Julia, she's a politician, a lefty and a woman

So, it must be her fault.

What else could explain the bitterness and misplaced hatred you display

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.a

Look its not unions, it is them!
Butchers.
By the time you get to mid life you have bought the butchers right thumb over a thousand times!
Cut every butchers right thumb off for a better Australia.
Sorry can not help myself, just had to contribute at the very low intellectual level such threads plumb.

All that's left to say is to point out the old adage, "Change is life and life is Change"
Anthonyve,
There's a more appropriate one for you "Bad things happen when good people do nothing".
Life is change yes but so is stupidity & it is changing for the worse thanks to the educated but utterly unenlightened. Tell me one, just one policy implemented by Government which was thought of by a blue collar worker. None, because all policies are dreamed up by educated people. So who is the guilty one ? The educated or the thinking ?

Anthonyve,
I had a few glances at observation point & found that there's plenty of what's not working, no good, proven to be no good etc etc. No solutions are suggested (maybe if I read further) how to reduce the problems we have in our society. Why not ? Because THE MAIN REASON FOR OUR PROBLEMS is too many people getting too much in return for too little, whilst others get too little for too much in return. I have yet to see an economist or commentator grab the bull by the horns & state the obvious, DO WITH LESS because that's what you're worth. I am so appalled at how much our Public Servants use up from our tax dollar. Why do we have to contribute to Super whilst Public Servants get it just about for free ? Why do I have to keep paying for what I have already bought ? Rates ? for what ? I already pay tax ? Look at registration fees, it's become unaffordable to even have a scooter so you only need the car for when a car is necessary. Look at safety equipment, unaffordable. Look at fines, unaffordable. We're on the brink of affordability. Why ? So our public service can keep on bludging because we get nothing in return from them. What about Health & emergency services I hear you say ? Well, aren't we paying taxes for that ? Tell me Anthony what would you say would be a fair wage ceiling for senior bureaucrats in Australia ?

Ah Anton, a typical response of someone with no answers is to start the personal insults.

And yes I have done a few bucks in recent years, a bit less than a million at least, and no, I don't blame anyone for it, but hey, you have to first have it to loose it.

I made very good money by working very hard, very long hours in butcher shops and, as the cash tin is running low, it's time to go back in.

All that despite supporting god knows how many bludgers, and kids of families that couldn't afford to have them.

Of cause my kids got zilch by way of government support, but hey, that's the price one pays here for success.

But at least for the middle part of my business life,my prime you might say, I could rely on my elected government to not waste every cent I paid in tax, and some.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a business owner today that feels that way.

Belly, you would'nt have a spare right thumb you could loan me mate, I only have two of my own.

Athonyv while you need no help in understanding those two post I will explain.
In an effort to rebuke you Indy and Rechtub, in two posts aiming at that.
Let us see it is them not you, who lack understanding and balance.
Indy, with similar intellect to Abbott understanding of finances, could one day run for Katters idiots party.

Hi Belly,
I lmow what you mean.
Rechtub seems to think he's some kind of hero for doing no more than what millions of others have done.
Only the others don't have a huge chip on their shoulders.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Anthony v yes in fact given time, before posting,I doubt Rechtub , even Indy, but with some doubt, think a whole class of Australians, has gone bad.
Wounder how many of the mud army are unionists or vote Labor?

Hi Belly,
A good point.
But neither Indi nor rechtub are the type to let facts spoil a good - or not so good - theory.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

True Anthonyv but truth makes its own path, I often express negative views of the very Left- of common sense.
The extremes of the right are just as lost.
A truth is, given its current troubles, the unlikely event we can stop a mass killing this election.
And the apparent lack of ability and plans from our opponents, Labor will emerge case hardened from the loss.

......And the apparent lack of ability and plans from our opponents, Labor will emerge case hardened from the loss

Belly that's a misleading statement and you know it.

Anyone knows it is impossible to plan anything without first knowing where we are here and now.

Even the government themselves doesn't really know just where we are finically, however, once the budget has been handed down, I believe this is in May, everyone should have a better idea of where our starting point is with regards to current and forecast debt.

Now surely you would agree that that would be a more responsible time to start releasing policies, from both parties.

Meanwhile, we have labor spending money head over heels on PLANNED reforms, such as health and education.

So, given there is still no end in sight for the asylum seekers debacle from labor, where do you propose the money will come from for these promised reforms, or, are they ( the reforms) yet another promise likely to be broken, like the surplus we would have at any cost.

Well, Wayne Swan managed to get one prediction right, that being the AT ANY COST proportion of his I'll fated promise.

Now for those who think we are great shape, I again remind them of where we came from, and where we are now IN JUST OVER FOUR YEARS.

Furthermore, where do they think we will be in another four years if nothing changes, remembering, you can only spend money once.

Why would anyone think it is surprising that a workers' union would not support a Liberal Government. It was Howard's LNP government which introduced Work Choices with disregard for their voters, a gross deception taking advantage of a majority in the Senate. The same people who protest too much about the Carbon Tax 'lie' completely foget that Howard passed IR legislation that was not put to the electorate prior to the election. This is the same as a lie.

Anyone who thinks the unions should support the Liberals with their history of following the USA with its expanding 'living poor' and homeless record is dreamin'.

Rechtub! we part ways again.
With no doubt in my mind, and with full confidence, I think your team is not ready to govern.
You may say as you wish, it is important to understand I too have that right.
Buried under the NSW Filth, the power brokers support for their actions in putting Gillard in power, I see truth, think about the current tell the neighbors , idiot thing about refugees.
Truly consider,Abbott,s refusal to help by pass the greens and put the FULL RECOMMENDATIONS of Gillards committee to end the boats.
Rechtub, as other posters contemplate who is right you or me.
Just look, eyes wide open brain switched on, not the Homer Simpson type, and consider this thread, its title, and the idea you tried to sell us here, you do not have a leg to stand on mate.
Quick word to ALP, while we , the thinkers of us, can see how bad the incoming government are to be, its a shame you fail to see Rudd,s polling.

Belly, I do see Ruds polling, but just remember, the boat people debacle was Ruds baby.

As for his popularity, it was I who said he should have replaced her , but Gillard is just too cunning, even in the way she hurriedly called a ballot, knowing full well time would have been her biggest enemy.

What this thread is about is the way the union, not members, but the leaders openly pledge their unconditional support to both labor and Gillard, knowing full well the mess they, along with Rud have caused us in LESS THAN FIVE YEARS.

As for work choices, I say again and again, good workers were not effected and, considering we went from a position of strength, to some 150 billion in debt, plus another 90 odd billion in unfunded promises, not to mention the illegals debacle, was it really worth the price?

Hate me for saying this if you wish, but It's a huge price to pay, don't you think.

Tell me Anthony what would you say would be a fair wage ceiling for senior bureaucrats in Australia ?
Anthonyve,
I've been in Telstra Country again, no reception. I see you had time to link up with Belly but no time to answer the above question ? Belly you're invited too to comment on that.

Oh, I've got plenty of time Indi, but not to waste on stupid questions.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Anthonyve,
If that is a stupid question then how about giving an intelligent answer ? Or are you of a character that doesn't give a hoot about how much of our tax dollars are going to undeserving people ? I suppose that is the average leftie mentality after all. No wonder you're sending Australia down the shute.

Indi many of the bureaucrats are in damage control now that there is a real threat that our hospitals may become privatized, as this quite simply means, many of these 'highly unionized BLUDGERS will loose their jobs, and although I am no fan of privatization, in this case I would say, about bloody time as our hospitals (QLD at least) are full of under worked, over paid unionists who's life's mission is to control and manipulate their working environment.

Of cause, in doing so, the treatment of their patients (their primary role) becomes less important than the feathering of their own nests.

Now if our hospitals are privatized, resulting in a watering down of the 'over the top' unionism, then perhaps this practice will spread to other sectors that suffer a similar fait.

rechtub,
I have personally witnessed, experienced & still do battle with Qld & federal Labor cronies on a daily basis. I'm no fan of essential services being privatised either. It won't work for very long. But the dilemma is how to cut back on the insane cost of our public service ?
There's presently an add on TV asking people to vote yes or no on the sale of Government assets. First of all they're not the government's assets, they're ours ! To ask a simple yes or no is just as idiotic as not asking at all. What they should be asking is which governments assets should be sold off not just yes or no.
Then they should also ask which services should get reduced & which should be boosted. The services themselves are not what's costing us our future, it's the massive amounts of benefits to our bureaucrats which do the damage. People like Anthonyve are very keen on dismissing our questions because they know they'd corner themselves. They're typical public servants not taking any risk whatsoever because they're now so used to getting the cake & eating it as well & they sure don't want to lose those lurks & perks. They don't care if essential services receive less funding as long as their superannuation is building at our expense. That is the new Labor doctrine. One Qld opposition member is presently sprouting off at the new 3.5 mill executive building yet when asked about justifying 40 mill for an island school with an average of 70 kids he is quite stumm. I could show you pictures directly related to the previous Qld Government & you'd go insane with rage if you were to see the waste they caused in some remote communities. You could build 20 or more executive buildings just from Labor's waste alone. Why journalists don't pick up on that clearly shows they're in bed with the maggots.

Yes Indi, it all comes back to the system they call, a democracy, when in fact, we don't really have a democracy, other than the one minute or so it takes one to cast their vote, as once cast, democracy if done and dusted for another term.

The bottom line is, labor governments (federal and Qld at least) have made monumental stuff ups, costing us billions, and, other than our minute of freedom on polling day, we have been powerless to do anything to save what is rightfully OURS.

Now as if that isn't bad enough, they (federal labor) have committed billions in an ongoing manner,(illegals) that will take generations to repay (if ever), not to mention put strain on our future services, paid for by OUR TAXES, yet here we have unions singing their praises, when in actual fact they (unions) should be shamefully embarested to think they have openly pledged their support for these incompitent fools.

As I say, unions just can't bring themselves to the thought that perhaps there is a better alternative, one that ACTUALLY WORKED for more than a decade, simply because they have always been, and will always remain ONE EYED.

Rechtub,

I was laughing my head off at the new depths of silliness you managed to plumb in your last two posts.

And then I came to your last line.

You, rechtub, the hater of the Left; the person who insists that every single thing wrong with Australia is the fault of Labor; you who refuse to acknowledge that Labor gas ever done a single good thing; you call others 'one eyed'.

I love it. I absolutely love it. Haven't laughed so hard in quite a while.

Ah, hypocrisy, verily, thy name is rechtub.

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Ah, hypocrisy, verily, thy name is...........
Anthonyve !

You can laugh as much as you like AFTER you have ANSWERED several questions put to you.
rehctub answers. Why ? because he has answers, you don't answer because you don't have any but you're invited to prove us wrong any time.

Oh dear, Indi,

I'll try to talk slow and use little words for you.

First, the question you've posed is pointless and has no bearing on the topic, because public service salaries are not - in the specific - set by governments of either persuasion.

To give you an example,You asked me what I thought should be, from memory, a fair wage ceiling for senior bureacrats?

And you keep demanding that I answer.

Okay, I'll humour you and do so.

The answer to your question would depend on the level of responsibility associated with the function; the level of qualifications and experience associated with the position, together with an assessment of the 'going rate'.

Unless one knows the answer to those questions, which would require that you specify the functional position that you are asking about, then there is no answer to your question.

Hence my earlier assessment that your question is stupid. And to bang on, demanding an answer to a question for which there is no possible answer is..... well, I'll leave you to fill in the blank.

And then, in a masterful demonstration of your intellectual limitations, you use my words back at me, as though you were contributing something meaningful to the debate.

If you can't go for an intelligent contribution, at least do try to be original.

Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Anthonyve,
ok I shall give you something that even a git should comprehend. No-one on the public payroll should be on more than $250 Grand a year in the present economics. Anyone wanting a higher salary should exercise their talent in the private sector & prove themselves without taxpayer backing.
I find it so offending that a Council CEO should be on $6000/fortnight, the several EO's on $5000/fortnight add to that excessive travel/allowances whilst the everyday workings are falling into a heap.
That is what our region inherited from Labor. I think it is morally as wrong as it can get & I denounce anyone supporting it. It would be a different story if the constituency were riding economically high but that isn't the case at all.
So, Anthony what do you think a mismanaging CEO should be paid ? You can use words as little as you like as long as they amount to an answer. I'm sure other OLO'ers would like to know how an expert like yourself would set wages.
You say they should depend on the level of responsibility associated with the function; the level of qualifications and experience associated with the position, together with an assessment of the 'going rate'. Well, the wages I outlined above are paid to people who don't appear to have any of the qualifications you list & they still get the money.

Bit of flooding around here, not sure I could get in to town till today.
Went ok, just, radio national, my favorite had a breif talk about our new found love of twitters face book and such.
The theme was what can you tell about the folk we speak to.
Already armed with the understanding, it may not be even near right, bought about by ham radio contacts and even earlier CB radio, I listened.
It got to a few, self lovers, self consumed, and the purely dangerous, believe me we have them all or had them.
Nothing is to be gained by openly saying who is what.
But an awareness, we should wear like a coat of armor, be aware.
Indy will have no trouble warning of ANY ONE, who votes or is Labor.
If he could have his wish?
Nothing less than 45% of this country,s folk would disapear over night, see he names us maggots.
But it is not his fault, its the best he can do.

Indi,
Here's a perfect example of what I mean when I say that you and rechtub confuse opinion with fact.
You assert that some person or other is worth no more than 250K/annum.
But:
> You have not read his/her position description and so have no knowledge of what he/she does;
> You have not read his/her CV and so have no idea of what he/she brings to the table;
> You have no idea of what his/her responsibilities are;
> You have no clue as to what competing positions are offering.
Yet you assert your factless opinion as though it were a fact.
I think you're just bitter because there's someone - actually, I suspect, an almost infinite number of someones - out there doing better than you.
You shouldn't be surprised.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

You have not read his/her CV and so have no idea of what he/she brings to the table;
You have no idea of what his/her responsibilities are;
Ah, Anthonyve,
now we're making some headway. I was wondering how long it'd be before we get to this point, took a while but we did get there. My whole argument is about just that, qualifications. CEO, EO, office staff all have CV's loaded with so-called qualifications. That's what got them the job. What those qualifications don't do is translate into competence & effective managing. Some of our labourers are effecting modifications that not even our highly qualified engineers could manage. Our budgets are shot to pieces by those highly qualified people.
Their responsiblities include accountability but they're not achieving any of it yet they still get the money. How, you ask ? I think you know the answer to that already. It's because their peers gave them Labor Government sanctioned contracts which stipulate that they do their 5 year terms no matter what. They can't be sacked & they can't resign. In other words the whole maggotting outfit is looking after each other because even though maggots only crawl they can still suffer the domino effect. For that not to happen needs a network of taxpayer funded bureaucrats leaning together for strength. There you have it.

Nothing less than 45% of this country,s folk would disapear over night,
Belly,
no not disappear, just wake up. Imagine knowing that suddenly it's all worthwhile doing something good for all rather than just be part of a group that only thinks of themselves.

Anton, the real problem we face is that the majority of our politicians are picked from what the corporate world rejected, or, they themselves were simply not up to the standard required to be a top order corporate success, with some of the reason being that they would be accountable for their actions, in the real world, and let's face it, even the likes of you must agree that some of our politicians would have been charged with gross negligence, perhaps even served time if in the real world.

They are in many circumstances, a joke, only the jokes on us, those who didn't vote them in, and the likes of the unions that continue to offer their unconditional support.

I simply can't imagine ANY CEO/company director that wouldn't have faced at least alleged charged of gross negligence, leading to death, had they overseen the insulation project as did Peter Garret.

I am afraid it's a bad case of rules for them, and rules for us.

So I ask you, why is it the unions continue with their unconditional support of this type of gross incompetence.

Furthermore, had a CEO/ company director been at the wheel, he would be lucky to be emptying the bins, let alone shifted to education.

One can only assume this role is regarded by labor, AS LESS IMPORTANT.

Indi, let me say again, for the third time, you are presenting your opinion based on zero facts, zero data, as though it was worth someting.
Do some research, gather some data, and then your opinions might be worth reading
As it is...
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Rechtub,
I'll give you this, at least you're consistant.
Unfortunately consistantly wrong.
Here you will find the facts about the pink batts situtation.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2011/04/24/the-csiro-gets-hip-to-debunking-media-hysteria/
Isn't it amazing what you discover when you get some research done for you, as you clearly can't be bothered doing research yourself.
After all, you mustn't let a few facts change your one eyed point of view would you.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

gather some data,
Anthonyve,
You mean data written by the likes of yourself based on the opinion of the likes of yourself ? Get real ! My statements aren't opinion based, they're based on undeniable fact, facts that the likes of you constantly refute because once people become more aware of how much mismanagement goes on & will continue they'll vote accordingly. And the so-called educated certainly want to protect the rackets that protect them.
I put it to you that you're the one that uses his opinion.

Anton, I havnt read thenwhole article, but what I did read was related to fire risk.

I am afraid that's to do with the aftermath of the insulation debacle, what I am referring to is the fact that, despite the many warnings received by Mr Garretts office, FROM INDUSTRY EXPERTS, which he and Mr Rud CONTINUALLY CHOSE TO IGNORE, four young lives were needlessly lost.

Now, tell me honestly, if either of thipese gentlemen were members of a company board, do you think they would have simply been ushered away to alternative roles, without any case to be answered.

In fact, I'll answer it myself, as the answer is clearly NO!

Btw, if the risk of fire is minimal, why are we now spending yet more tax payers dollars checking the safety of the batts.

Don't worry Anton, the truth often hurts, as facts are hard to dispute.

Rechtub forgive Anthonyv, he has not been around long enough to know the real you.
He in time will get to understand you never let truth get in to the dark place you mind is in if Labor/workers/unions/dole bludgers/humanity is involved?
Disagree?
Read, with an open mind, your post history.

So enlighten me Belly, where am I wrong in my last post, the one referring to the deaths of four young people.

Ar Belly, you just hate being PROVEN WRONG don't you.

Just run away and pop up on another thread, waiting for the right moment to either call someone, I'll informed, or just take your bat and ball and run away.

Perhaps it's you who should check their post history, to see how many times this has happened.

Rechtub! you tell me.;
Yes you tell me am I best to walk away from your heated rubbish or to talk to you in terms that will upset you?
I value your contributions less than almost any poster bar Indy.
You are quite ilinformed and quite bigoted!
Are you still pleased to see me return, not words to hurt you, that is never my aim.
But bloke look at the threads title, remember you posts and threads of the past, you even said once some thing or other stopped the wrong type breeding we fought a war over that.
You have slammed my party and its voters, said pack packers are theiving from us, again and again, then denyed it, called for food stamps to be introduced.
Rechtub if my friend you post such junk be pleased good men avoid you not tell you as I have you are a bigot.
You claim the right to say as you wish, unfounded junk comment.
And I with a record of holding both sides to account see you as I say, sorry others do not have the jam tart to tell you what they think.

I have been thinking about that last post.
Often find me doing that, its a friend not an enemy, the thought I should re think my actions/words.
I was not heated or angry on posting that.
Had no wish to hurt Rechtub, and not caring at all for indys thoughts.
Would by both a drink and sit with them, but not talk politics.
Seethe threads title,as is more often than not took the verbal bat to, EVERY UNIONIST!
From first hand understanding,wish some of my mates knew it, unionists are just the bloke next door.
Labor voters are the same.
After the helmet comes off, and the high vis gear,they may be you.
Vote Liberal, country party, greens, they buy your products and eat the food you grow.
HUMAN BEINGS.
Try, I truly do,to warn first, in my self interest, and the interest of my people,working class ordinary folk, Labor has betrayed me and us.
But I am not blind.
Cannot pretend to see, Tony Abbott is not John Howard.
So bad is Labor treating us, that Abbott can not be beaten.
Yet a warning, we are seeing the seeds of corruption!
In Conservative states.
That will one day see Labor back.
I hope and beg it will be a reformed Labor,not the private property of filth singing solidarity forever.
We must stop the down would spiral in both camps.
One eyed folk, who with that eye see nothing,must be told.
Rechtub I will never withdraw my view about you but you, in truth have your view about me.
One of us is so very wrong.