I doubt you have ever been 'silent' at all Antiseptic.

I agree with Pelican that some women are actually worse than men at putting other women down.

If a woman wants to work, and has kids at home, then they are considered 'bad' mothers.
If a woman wants to stay at home with the kids, well then they are boring and not fulfilling their full potential.

Damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Feminism is not about hating men at all.
It is about equality as far as I am concerned.
Is that too much to ask for?

Politics is predominantly male however, so the condemnation from male colleagues towards female politicians is undoubtedly more common.

I'll drink to that Suse, but only if it goes both ways. The whole no fault system with the dissolution of marriage has proved to a huge con job by the ladies.

Yes if dad decides to shoot through with his secretary, or the pub barmaid, he should leave the family home behind.

However when mum decides she wants to live with the baker, rather than her old man, it is she who should leave that family home behind. Having the old boy kicked out so she can move the baker in, is not equality.

Until we get this situation as standard there is nothing like equality.

Unfortunately the above is all too often a feminists idea of equality. Unfortunately with the law as it is interpreted today, any man who marries, or even stays around long enough for the de facto laws to be triggered, is setting himself up to be screwed.

Anti, good to see you are still alive. The point you highlight is a worthwhile one especially when contrasted to what a lot of non-professional feminists and feminist supporters want it to be "Feminism is not about hating men at all.
It is about equality as far as I am concerned."

The reality is often very different to what a lot of people of good will want it to be. The evidence is there but it's an inconvenient truth and is ignored in favour of what feminism should be.

If it the professionals feminists and those who write the papers and drive the agenda's were really about equality of opportunity I'd be a big fan but the reality is often very very different.

Not sure how to ever get some to take the time and effort to examine the evidence for themselves though. What does not fit existing beliefs about feminism is brushed aside.

Convenient but unsubstantiated beliefs are touted as self evident "so the condemnation from male colleagues towards female politicians is undoubtedly more common." - numerical strength does not always equate to corresponding representation in a particular behaviour.

R0bert

As one who has worked with and observed many a poly and aspiring politician, I can say for some it's lucky getting elected does not require any formal qualification or even a job interview. That has nothing what so ever to do with gender. Besides the blatantly obvious requirements of understanding issues and policy plus the ability to articulate the said issues and policy the single most important asset a poly can have is 'political savvy' which enables a politician to deal with every thing from the media to little old ladies who vote. Even if one is light on when it comes to the issues and policy if you have that 'savvy' your are well on the way to political success. The most complete politician I ever did see was Neville Wran.
I thing both the Labor and Liberal parties have been guilty of underscoring the abilities of woman, often viewing them as people who can easily be controlled and manipulated I think many in the Labor Party seen Kristina Keneally as such a person, when in fact she had more ability than the manipulators gave her credit for.
A female with good looks in politics, as in employment, is often seen by many men and other women as a person with little ability and some how have only risen through the ranks based on their appearance. A handsome man does not necessarily suffer the same indignity.

Oh dear, the old boys club have taken over a discussion on why Nicola Roxon resigned, and turned it into an anti-feminist/anti-female tirade.

Nicola is wise to get out of the male dominated political world, and I am wisely leaving this thread for more interesting subjects.

<A female with good looks in politics, as in employment, is often seen by many men and other women as a person with little ability and some how have only risen through the ranks based on their appearance. A handsome man does not necessarily suffer the same indignity>

There is plenty of research to say that presentation assists career (and credibility).

At first this appears unfair and it is a bit too because genes do matter in all sorts of ways. That is why we try to choose the fitter, more able partners to have children. That is life.

However when you look into it, presentation can be assisted and built through effort. It isn't just what you started with.

As well, examples abound of physically plain and 'unattractive' people who have done very well in the world. Obviously they have played to their strengths. Choice matters.

What many women object to is that sort of affirmative action that catapults the less than competent into jobs at their level, casting a shadow over their own achievements in the process. The predictable, catastrophic failures from women mateship and favouritism during the Anna Bligh years are instances. In the public agencies for example, there are plenty of good women available from outside and in, but the pecking order is often established by networks. In politics it is cynical politics, political opportunism, that elevates. Usually the product is evidence of that.

What lets women down is not Nicola Roxon moving through one of the usual transitions expected for women, but the middle class academic (and bureaucratic) careerists with a vested interest in not recognising those transitions. It is an elite who identify the (their) needs, the (their) expectations and the (their) solutions.

Again, that is life. Wherever government gives special conditions and support it will be the middle class who step in to exploit. That is not a political ideology talking, just practical reality. Whitlam wanted to improve the training options available for unemployed women. Shortly after, middle class women filled available places in humanities and social sciences at universities.