o sung wu,

"More good, than some of the minor errors in judgement they've made in relation to their earstwhile foreign policy."

America's "erstwhile foreign policy" has killed between 10-20 million people since WW2, depending on whether direct or indirect accounting is used. I'd prefer the US as the world's sole superpower, but American foreign policy has been devastating to millions in the ME and Central and South Asia, so it's hardly surprising that their victims eventually retaliated.

"Yet we, as a relatively small nation owe them so much." We really don't owe the Americans anything, they defended Australia because it was in their strategic interests to do so, the British abandoned us because they had other priorities, despite 60,000 Australian dead in WW1.

*We did see the airplanes go in didn't we ? Or was that a well orchestrated illusion ?*

It was no illusion thay did attack the buildings but it was orchestrated by the the Neo Cons. Who wrote in their "project for a new American century" that they needed a "New Pearl Harbor".

*A systemic failure, by the intelligence units, of both the CIA and FBI, manifestly contributed to the overall success of that attack*

I would consider it a success by the Intelligence units. They made sure that the attack worked smoothely and then sewed disinformation about it while covering up the evidence. All of the debris was quickly removed, shipped off shore and reprocessed, so no forensic examination was allowed.
To this day it is amazing how few American know about the WTC building 7 falling.

A truth shines brightly at those who posted early here.
We may have been confused, as the author appeared to be.
Why link two so very different themes.
Time has shown us why.
I invite contributors to witness a truth, shown clearly in this thread.
The very left, Greens do not all fit that description, some, far from all, think they are members/followers of a party wanting conservation, wrong but.
True left long way further than LABOR, have presents in numbers, ONLY ON THE NET.
Speakers corners no longer offer a small crowd to them ,unless they bring it in an extra VW Combi, or Volvo.
We know or should, they, see my expired thread about Islam, steam roller over views they do not share.
And such is the distrust they hold America in, the invented trash talk of that nation killing 3.000 of its own thrown back wards and forwards.
The true left in fact fractured in about 1956, and it has many heads today, unfortunately not much coming from any of them is of use.
Britain's [Tony Blair] New Labor, is about the home of leftist who are also realists.
I could say nearly every thing, about the extreme right, and it would be true.
Compare for yourself, the rights view here, SOME OF THEM Labor followers betray the nation.
And the charges against America made here.
We should consider comment before excepting it as valid, always

Good evening; MAC & ROBERT Le PAGE...

I read with interest your recent threads where you both furnished further material supporting your theory of the 'injudiciousness' or 'unlawful acts' if you like, apropos US foreign policy.

You ROBERT also indicated the US was responsible for millions of deaths, both in the Middle East and in South East Asia. I believe you're referring to Vietnam as well as Iraq ?

I should add, though I served in the former, I know about as much now, of their complex political machinations, as I did when in country, during the 1960's, and that's about nought !

As a regular, I was ordered over there, did my twelve months, and was subsequently repatriated home, physically all in one piece. But with a head full of many impenetrable questions. And with a memory of those times as sharp today as it was in the middle sixties. Filled with many chilling images, and enduring memories of indefinable horrors.

Anyway this isn't about me, it's a simple description of the many complex horrors associated with war. You need therefore to look closely at the real motive as to why the US (ever) decides to take military action. Is it exclusively to support American interests ? I don't believe so. Obviously you do ROBERT ?

Why, may I ask do you and others harbour such loathing and abhorrence for the US ? If you feel so emotional about them, to a point of unmitigated hatred, why not take a more positive, overt role in bringing them down.

Do I blindly follow and accept the US in everthing they do ? The hell I do. Their recent economic strategies, adopted by both parties, to avoid this 'mythical' fiscal cliff, the've been on about for the last few weeks, is positively ridiculous, and I'm surprised the Republicans have had any truck with it at all.

Similarly, their posturing with some reform to interdict certain types of military styled firearms, post Sandy Hook ?

The US, do I respect them, sure, why not ?

o sung wu,

"Why, may I ask do you and others harbour such loathing and abhorrence for the US ?"

I'm not sure to whom you're referring with this comment, for the record, I don't "harbour loathing and abhorrence for the US". The USA is one of the great achievements of Western civilisation, the point is to distinguish the American Republic from the American Empire.

It can no longer be avoided.
While the American hating, and by association west have gathered to feed, truth is a refugee.
I only come to remind readers this is the very reason Labor has Factions.
[Not supporting POWER BROKERS PTY LTD]
I belong,maybe not for long, to the right faction, Center Unity.
My harping about our not to go away problems may get me sacked.
Do not put these folk in Labors basket.
We out vote them every time massively.
So it should and must be.
By continuing to contribute to their thread,we feed them.
It is not often that the words are even taken notice of in the real world.
Know they will grow out of it,some still,in school or University, will one day hide in shame at the words they fluff feathers in pride at today, see you in another thread.