The cost of maintaining a military presence in Afghanistan is horrendous in lives as well as financial costs.
This is being done to protect us from the threat of terrorism.
I do not think that any lives have been threatened let alone lost due to terrorism imported from a foreign country.
We have had a lot of lives lost in another war which is presently raging and will continue to do so perpetually. This is the war that nature is waging against us and is exacerbated by global warming.
The bush fires that are causing devastation all over the eastern states at the moment is one aspect of this war.
We are fighting this with one hand tied behind our backs due to a lack of the proper tools.
The helicopters that are in use together with a few crop dusters are ineffective and there are better aircraft available.
The Canadian purpose designed and built Bombardier would be a tremendous boost to protecting the tinder dry land we live in.
In an average mission of six nautical miles (11 kilometres) distance from water to fire, it can complete nine drops within an hour and deliver 14,589 U.S. gallons (55,233 litres) of fire suppressant.
It is an Amphibious Aircraft so is suitable for general duties also when not fire bombing.
Surely it would be better to obtain a fleet of these aircraft and have the RAAF operate them than to spend multi millions on a futuristic fighter that we really do not need and then ship them overseas to fight a war that is not only unnecessary but unwinnable

Australia has spilled much blood in Afghanistan.
If the west had not gone there it still would be the place terrorist acts came from.
All the local graft, the local insider military murders of western troops has taken place.
Women and girls have every chance of living without fear.
It may all fall over when we leave.
I dislike our being there but think we should stay till it is time to go.
No war was ever clean not one was a clear trouble free thing.
We owe it to the very reasons we went, and our dead to stay.

The USA/NATO has now deployed troops to 35 African countries.They are trying to contain China.The Africans love China since they leave them with infrstructure and no debt unlike our Western Bankster parasites.

Do not be concerned about our arjay, he is very anti west.
Your second point, well combined within the thread needs addressing.
It is more than likely other posters are or have been volunteer bush fire fighters.
Some could confirm my Grimm story.
In fighting fires first we must stop the fire starters,some who are in fact active members of those brigades.
I can give first hand evidence of that, having served with one.
True volunteers need no praise, but some seek it out and light fires to get it.
Unreal lated in my view to true war, prison terms for every caught offender no matter who will greatly reduce fires.

he is very anti west.
Belly,
Any decent Westerner feels the same. Just look at the morons we have allowed to prosper. Hell. I'm starting to get very anti West myself. Being Western is nothing to be proud by any stretch of the imagination.
I think it's time the West woke up !

Robert LePage,

Agreed, however the "Great and Powerful Friend" delusion is widespread.

"This is being done to protect us from the threat of terrorism."

By making enemies of people who had probably never even heard of Australia before we invited ourselves to America's wars?

The government and a large percentage of the population seem to think that we're paying some sort of insurance premium on future US assistance by behaving like a sycophant, the Americans might be a more reliable ally than the British, but in the long term I doubt it.

"""
Do not be concerned about our arjay, he is very anti west.
"""

You are one sick puppy. You need help dude!

"We owe it to the very reasons we went, and our dead to stay."

The reason we went was to gain favor from the USA for the implementation of a Free Trade Agreement, a sense of grovelling endorsement plus for domestic political expediency.

Obviously the best way to honor our fallen dead is to pile even more bodies on top of them, and ultimately for what?

To bomb some sort of Democracy into some country or to lift the bottom line for corporations such as Blackwater?

Meanwhile those who actually finance terrorism - such as Saudi Arabia - remain well out of the public eye and the reasons for the actual terrorist attacks are never ever discussed, except as hollow slogans straight out of some Hollywood script, and those huge corporations who profit from war carry on.

Being anti West is not being anti America, let's get that straight. There are more Asians who are Western than Americans & Europeans combined. Hell, there are more black people who are more Western than the whole population of Australia. West does no equate to white. West means excess & getting much for nothing. Most of Academia is Western.
Most frivolous industry is Western. Pointless education is Western etc etc. Western is a mentality not Race and, it's taking a spiral dive. No opposite rudder to recover.

Good evening to you ARJAY...

Over time, I've read many of your posts on varying topics, and I've noticed that anything that remotely pertains to, or touches upon the United States of America, you seem to become very caustic and indignant just at the mere mention of the country. I was wondering why ?

I know in the last couple of decades, the US has had their fair share of economic and diplomatic stumbles, probably more so then most democracies, nevertheless there's much for us (Australia) to thank them for.

I've often heard (ad nauseam) many discussions concerning the Vietnam War, and how the US and her allies were beaten. At the risk of opening up another contentious topic involving disputable arguement apropos South Vietnam. I've got to say, we weren't ever beaten in country ! We were beaten in the environs of Martin Place , Washington, Times Square, and on the many University Campuses, all over the western world ? Also with the able assistance of the likes of Ms Jane FONDA, speaking with the North Vietnam Military, while her fellow countrymen were dying in the South of the country, doesn't help much either ?

I can't possibly count the number of instances that I know of personally, where US officials have given material assistance too so many deserving folk...!

ARJAY, I realize you must have your reasons, probably good ones, it's just that I find your resolute and tireless censuring and disparagement of the US, more than a little curious ? And I just wonder why, is all ?

Dear O Sung Wu
In defence of Arjay and the anti-american stance. It depends on how much effort you want to put in. I share the opinion that no world power has done so much damage and caused so much human misery in the history of humankind as this regime has in the last thirty-five years. This is one huge motion picture we are looking at and does take a lot of effort to comprehend. Arjay,s sources may be different to mine, however may I suggest that a reading of Naomi klein's "Shock Doctrine" and William Blum's historical record "Killing Hope" would be an illuminating starting point. These two books should be available at a local library; they certainly joined a lot of dots for me plus there is a huge and mounting volume of well substantiated written material available if one takes the trouble to access it.
Cheers Den71

o sung wo thanks, for nothing but a common sense post.
You will note I bought some fire on my self, but lets look deeper.
Deeper at what I think is of little help, even a danger to OLO.
Raw Mustard, wants us to think he is hot stuff, insulting but uninteresting.
He targets me, for reminding him the letter T is all that separates a Witt from a Twitt.
Arjay openly targets the USA, room exists to do so, on SOME ISSUES not every one.
We find our selves contributing,to a thread that perilously, attempts to link Bush fires to war.
And comments are strange IMO today houses will be lost land nearly destroyed, but I doubt ANY members of the armed forces will be put in to fight those fires,unless they threaten Military property.
Yes such and much more is done, for us all, by our military.
Review too, if posters will, Long time contributor INDIVIDUAL.
His contributions,if not in his own mind,are like raw mustards, to me and casual observers a SINGLE INTENT TO NEEDLE some other posters.
It may not be so, but can you see other in that post?

Like Vietnam, Afghanistan is another US war of lies (aren't they all). The tied old line from the war mongers in Washington "freedom and democracy" is just a lie. All this to disguise their true motives of world economic domination. When the US refer to defending their strategic and economic interests, don't be fooled it is nothing more than a euphemism for world power and world domination.
Growing up during the cold war I always favored Australia to be seen as a non aligned nation rather than a servile lackey to US imperialism. For a brief period during the Whitlam years I though this would come to fruition, but unfortunately the demise of Gough seen Australia sink back into its subservient roll as a puppet of the US and a blind follower of that countries aggressive agenda. In the tradition of a Menzies or a Holt, Gillard like Rudd, Howard and those that come before continues the sycophantic folly of "All the way with Uncle Sam." unfortunately to Australia's detriment.

"All the way with Uncle Sam." unfortunately to Australia's detriment.
Paul1405 et al,
I shudder to think of eventually proving you wrong, I just hope it doesn't get to that.
What do you think would have happened to the planet by now if the US hadn't played Policeman to the world ?
What other Nations do you think would have the will & resources to keep the mindless under control ?
Give us a bit of a list please. Your remark is like my boss's who said we need more boat people because he wants to maintain his $65 grand pension when he retires. Somehow I can't envisage religious fanatics who despise us worrying about our pensions.

o sung wu.see http://www.globalresearch.ca/ The Gulf of Tonkin incident which the USA used as an excuse to escallate the Vietnam war did not happen.Records released in the late 1990's show that North Vietnam did not attack any US Ship.The USA arms manufacturers and chemical companies made a fortune destroying Vietnam.People today still suffer from the effects of Agent Orange.55,000 US soldiers died there for profit.We pay the taxes for the loans and pay for the wars.

We warned the USA of the impending attack on Pearl Harbour.They let it happen because the US people wanted no part of war.The USA was restricting Japanese trade and cutting off their access to oil.Japan had little choice but war.It was an indpendant country and a manufacturing giant.It was a threat to Western power.

Right now the West is trying to go to war with China/Russia since the West has lost the financial wars and only have weapons left.It is the Banking Military Industrial Complex that initiates wars for profit and stealing energy and resources.China does not want war since right now it is winning the peace through production and improving the economies of those with whom it deals with.

Gaddafi of Lybia had oil which the Chinese were developing and gold.He was going to bring in a new African currency backe by gold that would rival the $ US.That's why they had to invade Libya and murder him.

http://www.ae911truth.org/ Here you will see 1700 Architects + Engineers proving that the Towers of the World Trade Centre were a controlled demolition.If you control the media then lies become the truth.

exhibited all of the characteristics of destruction by explosives: quote from the photo in the link.
Arjay,
The debris blowing up & out looks very much like the result of the pressure wave from the internal compression of the collapse. We did see the airplanes go in didn't we ? Or was that a well orchestrated illusion ?
Yes weaponry companies make a lot of money from wars but so do many from the stupidity of the average voting citizen. Of course conspiracies abound & the WTC was an Arab religious fanatic conspiracy. The sad thing is that those targeted haven't got the gist of the attack & haven't stopped going about their idiotic ways. I suppose greed & the prospect of money will always be the greater force in shaping peoples' mentality.

I there - DEN71, PAUL1405 & ARJAY...

Thank you all for providing me with further enlightening material, with respect to the alleged contrived evil that the USA supports and represents ?

Both your enmity and denunciation of that country is almost palable. Yet we, as a relatively small nation owe them so much. Of course, I can't in anyway agree with you, with any of your sentiments or unfounded allegations stated hitherto. Nor can I countenance any of the mockery or derision you all seek to engineer, in your attempts to provoke large scale disparagement of this large proud Nation !

Concerning the events of 9 September, your allegations of a supposed, purposeful and deliberate destruction of the Twin Towers, occasioning the deaths of over three thousand people.

As ever the pragmatist, I look to the evidence. And the evidence I do have, is no more nor less than any other member of the public. But I do reckon the evidence is quite clear. On that date, a terrorist organisation mounted a well planned strategic attack on the Twin Towers, in New York City. A systemic failure, by the intelligence units, of both the CIA and FBI, manifestly contributed to the overall success of that attack. A previously deficient area that has since been strengthed significantly, post September eleven.

Nor is there a scintilla of factual evidence suggesting otherwise, notwithstanding any number of conspiracy theories abounding.

I'm under no illusion whatsoever, that the US has it's fair share of foiables, and failings. Probably, as many as any other democratic Nation of similar size.

However it's my humble opinion those defects are far outweighed by the enormous amount of good, and goodwill they've achieved all around the world ! More good, than some of the minor errors in judgement they've made in relation to their earstwhile foreign policy.

In conclusion, by the existence of fact, I'll therefore continue to closely endorse and align my views and opinions with that espoused by both BELLY and INDIVIDUAL !

Nevertheless, many thanks for your contribution.

Good morning o sung wo
It is my fate to find trouble.
For myself, by saying it just as I think.
A lifetime habit, that has rewarded rather than hurt for the most part.
Be content, a truth that will always be unshakable is that most Australians, Liberal Labor National,think alike.
Your named trio are not bad folk, not one of them.
But as you say,the anti USA along with deep bedded failure to understand all sides of this issue are the usual.
This thread had two heads.
Two directions.
The attempt to link our bush fire crisis was never going to work.
Out there some place today, are sick folk who lite some of those fires.
Bet they had no idea their actions made them terrorist fighters, maybe they did.
We can only hope,in the case of firebugs they too do not under stand.

o sung wu,

"More good, than some of the minor errors in judgement they've made in relation to their earstwhile foreign policy."

America's "erstwhile foreign policy" has killed between 10-20 million people since WW2, depending on whether direct or indirect accounting is used. I'd prefer the US as the world's sole superpower, but American foreign policy has been devastating to millions in the ME and Central and South Asia, so it's hardly surprising that their victims eventually retaliated.

"Yet we, as a relatively small nation owe them so much." We really don't owe the Americans anything, they defended Australia because it was in their strategic interests to do so, the British abandoned us because they had other priorities, despite 60,000 Australian dead in WW1.

*We did see the airplanes go in didn't we ? Or was that a well orchestrated illusion ?*

It was no illusion thay did attack the buildings but it was orchestrated by the the Neo Cons. Who wrote in their "project for a new American century" that they needed a "New Pearl Harbor".

*A systemic failure, by the intelligence units, of both the CIA and FBI, manifestly contributed to the overall success of that attack*

I would consider it a success by the Intelligence units. They made sure that the attack worked smoothely and then sewed disinformation about it while covering up the evidence. All of the debris was quickly removed, shipped off shore and reprocessed, so no forensic examination was allowed.
To this day it is amazing how few American know about the WTC building 7 falling.

A truth shines brightly at those who posted early here.
We may have been confused, as the author appeared to be.
Why link two so very different themes.
Time has shown us why.
I invite contributors to witness a truth, shown clearly in this thread.
The very left, Greens do not all fit that description, some, far from all, think they are members/followers of a party wanting conservation, wrong but.
True left long way further than LABOR, have presents in numbers, ONLY ON THE NET.
Speakers corners no longer offer a small crowd to them ,unless they bring it in an extra VW Combi, or Volvo.
We know or should, they, see my expired thread about Islam, steam roller over views they do not share.
And such is the distrust they hold America in, the invented trash talk of that nation killing 3.000 of its own thrown back wards and forwards.
The true left in fact fractured in about 1956, and it has many heads today, unfortunately not much coming from any of them is of use.
Britain's [Tony Blair] New Labor, is about the home of leftist who are also realists.
I could say nearly every thing, about the extreme right, and it would be true.
Compare for yourself, the rights view here, SOME OF THEM Labor followers betray the nation.
And the charges against America made here.
We should consider comment before excepting it as valid, always

Good evening; MAC & ROBERT Le PAGE...

I read with interest your recent threads where you both furnished further material supporting your theory of the 'injudiciousness' or 'unlawful acts' if you like, apropos US foreign policy.

You ROBERT also indicated the US was responsible for millions of deaths, both in the Middle East and in South East Asia. I believe you're referring to Vietnam as well as Iraq ?

I should add, though I served in the former, I know about as much now, of their complex political machinations, as I did when in country, during the 1960's, and that's about nought !

As a regular, I was ordered over there, did my twelve months, and was subsequently repatriated home, physically all in one piece. But with a head full of many impenetrable questions. And with a memory of those times as sharp today as it was in the middle sixties. Filled with many chilling images, and enduring memories of indefinable horrors.

Anyway this isn't about me, it's a simple description of the many complex horrors associated with war. You need therefore to look closely at the real motive as to why the US (ever) decides to take military action. Is it exclusively to support American interests ? I don't believe so. Obviously you do ROBERT ?

Why, may I ask do you and others harbour such loathing and abhorrence for the US ? If you feel so emotional about them, to a point of unmitigated hatred, why not take a more positive, overt role in bringing them down.

Do I blindly follow and accept the US in everthing they do ? The hell I do. Their recent economic strategies, adopted by both parties, to avoid this 'mythical' fiscal cliff, the've been on about for the last few weeks, is positively ridiculous, and I'm surprised the Republicans have had any truck with it at all.

Similarly, their posturing with some reform to interdict certain types of military styled firearms, post Sandy Hook ?

The US, do I respect them, sure, why not ?

o sung wu,

"Why, may I ask do you and others harbour such loathing and abhorrence for the US ?"

I'm not sure to whom you're referring with this comment, for the record, I don't "harbour loathing and abhorrence for the US". The USA is one of the great achievements of Western civilisation, the point is to distinguish the American Republic from the American Empire.

It can no longer be avoided.
While the American hating, and by association west have gathered to feed, truth is a refugee.
I only come to remind readers this is the very reason Labor has Factions.
[Not supporting POWER BROKERS PTY LTD]
I belong,maybe not for long, to the right faction, Center Unity.
My harping about our not to go away problems may get me sacked.
Do not put these folk in Labors basket.
We out vote them every time massively.
So it should and must be.
By continuing to contribute to their thread,we feed them.
It is not often that the words are even taken notice of in the real world.
Know they will grow out of it,some still,in school or University, will one day hide in shame at the words they fluff feathers in pride at today, see you in another thread.

o sung wu, I feel that you are putting words into my mouth. I have never ever said that I have loathing and abhorrence for the US.
Yes I Have abhorrence for a small group of people, who appear to have taken control of the US for their own benefit.
These are mostly the people who Eisenhower called the " military industrial complex".
Amongst them are the bankers who have taken over the finance industry and are controlling the government.
These people are the cause of the GFC with their fraudulent and corrupt methods.
I do feel that the bulk of the citizens in the US have allowed this to happen because they have been taken in by the propaganda telling them that they are going to be part of the "American dream" ,and should just go along with what is happening to get "their" share of the trough.
It will never happen of course but they have fallen for it. No I do not hate these people but rather feel sorry for them.

*If you feel so emotional about them, to a point of unmitigated hatred, why not take a more positive, overt role in bringing them down.*

I refute the above completely.

Yes I would like to see the neo Con group displaced and fully expect to see that happen one day when the US Empire self destructs. I will not have to do anything, even if I could.

Mac, you speak of the American republic as well as the American empire. Today the American empire has gone beyond national boundaries in the form of 'Globalization'. The dream of the republic is necessary to mask the objectives of the empire from the mass, those objectives with their consequences, truly exposed would be totally unpalatable to the vast majority.
The danger is economic competition for resources and markets from emerging economies, China, India and to a lesser extent Russia, this resource and market competition from the new economic powers must be pitted against the economic needs of 'Globalization', military conflict can be the only outcome, unless the new economies come on board and accept economic domination through 'globalization'. Small resource rich nations will have little choice as this power struggle develops. A nation like Australia will be eyed by all as a juicy plumb for the picking.

'afternoon to you, MAC & ROBERT Le PAGE...

I must apologise unreservedly for my (apparently) insensitive remarks that, inadvertently seem to have include you two. I offer no particular defence for my assertions, other than to say this Forum seems to have an abundance of 'US haters' ?

And to put it simply, I'll not have it ! I'll not lamely stand by and permit people to make all these often unfounded assertions, without at least adding my voice of support to all that's good about the country, it's people, and it's democracy and freedoms, virtues often absent in many other countries.

I've had dealings with the yanks. Initially, back in the sixties and later on the eighties. Firstly, the US Army, and later on, US Marshal Service, the FBI, and my last (official) exposure, the visit of President George Bush Senior to Australia. And that occasion was with the 'Presidential Protection Detail' of US Secret Service.

I have absolutely no illusion as to the many errors, mistakes, call it what you will, the various Administrations have made in Foreign Policy. What major power, has NOT erred ? The United States is (by default?) the world's policeman, for better or worse. Someone with the necessary muscle, has to do it ! If not the US, then who ? Russia ? The French ? What about China ?

I don't see any other powerful nation eager to 'step up to the plate' and do the job ? Seems, whenever the US tries to stop a war, some obscure conflict, national political corruption, or any event that incurrs loss of life of innocents. They, as a matter of course, are heavily criticized, often abused, even accused ! A case of damned if they do, and damned if the don't ?

Again, I apologise for (adversely) including you two, in my private 'rant'. I do get rather passionate, when I hear people running down any institution, without first acknowledging some of the positive outcomes, and benefits that they've achieved.

Do what "job", sung wu?

The US and the West in general are merely looking out for their own interests.

The reason Egypt erupted was that the ruling elite were in cahoots with the IMF and the World Bank...the general population were worse off after the intervention of those two "American/European" controlled institutions......this happens all over the globalised third world in exactly the same fashion.

I get what you're saying, but on the other hand, where does the US government venture to halt dictators or unrest when there is nothing in it for them or the defences on the opposing side are too great? - they don't bother.

o sung wu,

Thanks for the clarification.

Regardless of how much we might respect and admire American institutions, the country is, in the final analysis, a superpower pursuing its national interests in a world of competing nation states. I agree with Poirot, the Americans have been remarkably cynical and hypocritical in their "defence of democracy", too often they have preferred their "son-of-a-bitch" such as Mubarak, to democratic alternatives.

Paul 1405,

You are rather pessimistic and I agree up to a point, particularly Australia's precarious position--the public seem to be ignorant of what the term "Lucky Country" really means.

I don't have any objection to globalisation in principle, the problem is, of course, on whose terms.

Good evening to you; POIROT & MAC...

I believe in my next life, I'll pursue basket weaving rather than advancing my opinions in Forums similar to this ?

'Where the US doesn't have any material or strategic interest in some war ravaged Nation, situated somewhere in darkest Africa'. I can't, nor will I attempt to mount an arguement against an example similar to that, you've both described.

There's some countries so bereft of any sort of practical solution, with legions of intractable problems, not even a super power can possible structure any sort of peace and harmony. Might I cite the events in Somalia, where the capital Mogadishu, was completely controlled by various War Lords, a significent failure I suppose you'd say ? I've also heard from some, the yanks copped a real beating there ? I don't think so, some how.

Then another serious event, this time in Rwanda, where the US was completely out of it, where a more moderate Nation Canada, tried to carry out a settlement on behalf of the UN Security Council. Another complete disaster, this time gamely brokered by the brilliant Canadian, Lt. General Romeo Dallaire, who upon his return to Canada suffered a Nervous Breakdawn ?

Just because a Country is termed a 'super power' doesn't mean they are capable of doing, or bringing about 'super things' or solutions.

Please excuse me, my eyes get very tired when on the computer at this time of night.

So I'll bid you both a good night, if I may.

Kind regards...Sung wu.

Comrades,I use that word for multiple reasons.
First as descriptive of some, not me proudly.
And in jest, because the word, and those it best describes are Laughable.
Ah yes, being rude again.
Or am I? the anti west/American views, in a thread about bush fires? is a hugely offensive but gut busting laugh.
I must stop laughing!
To aid me here are some memory's, Hungary, Solidarity in Poland, Kremlin, oh no!
Starting to cry! reality does that.

People in war torn Africa fight among themselves for local power and land and do not have international terrorism to overcome the Western influences as their agenda.

Our forces are in Afganistan to assist the locals to have a more peaceful society, free of terrorism and irrational laws

Hi again, POIROT & MAC...

Firstly, I must apologise for my hurried exit from the topic last evening, my eyes get very tired at night when either reading or on the computer.

Anyway, it would seem we'll never reach any agreement, with respect to whether the US act, entirely because of some compassionate or humanitarian motivation ? Or rather, what some people propound, it's purely out of some (mercenary) self interest. That, and that alone, is the true rationale for why the US does anything ?

On one hand, you may contend the US always has a self interest in providing aid (in all it's forms) to the many needy nations around the world ?

Though I do observe, it's often the US who're first to open their wallets. In order to provide some urgent fiscal relief or disaster aid. And in a response, they're often roundly censured even pilloried for doing so. With shrill claims of US self interest at work !

Some years ago, I put it to a former FBI colleague/friend of mine - why in hell don't you (the US), simply close ranks, and tell some other super power to do the 'heavy lifting' for a change ! His reply was to simply shrug his shoulders, and mutter something to the effect '...it's expected of us I suppose...' ? Indeed it is.

Anyway POIROT & MAC, I reckon I'm just about enervated with this unwinnable discussion. I can't possibly furnish you with any further evidence to at least, partly convince you both, that the United States is, by and large, an honourable and decent Democracy ! Thats my opinion, and I'll not depart from that opinion.

Thank you both for your considered responses, I do appreciate it.