Csteele>> I am interested in why the distinction of first world countries? Second and third world countries sign these accords too. <<

C, this thread was spawned from an article regarding Ultra Orthodox Jews in Israel. It went into the growth and revival of the Ultra and onto birth rate projections had them as a major minority in a generation. It then discussed the possible outcomes if Israel becomes a fundamentalist state.

A religion democratically overturns a secular state when the voters hit critical mass. Further to that I considered Europe and the new status quo when Muslims become the majority voting bloc.

>>A more direct question for you is what do you expect from your democracy? Perhaps for some of us our expectations do not sit well with the capacity of the institution.<<

This is my expectation:
For instance to me a democracy performs well when everyone feels they have at least had a chance to put their case or have their say if they so desire, when minorities are protected, and when the powerful do not get an inordinately greater voice than the rest of us.... C, I agree with you.

Any tangent on the name of the thread is fine, but what instigated me was the thought that a religious state could be instituted democratically, particularly a fundamentalist state that would demolish democracy.

Dear sonofgolin,,

You wrote;

“Any tangent on the name of the thread is fine, but what instigated me was the thought that a religious state could be instituted democratically, particularly a fundamentalist state that would demolish democracy.”

I felt I had understood where you were coming from which is why I have thus far raised three examples of states that are dealing with fundamentalist governments; Lebanon, Iran, and then Bangladesh – and looked at measures that had been taken to accommodate religion within their democratic structures. I could have included Egypt when a truly interesting and probably more relevant experiment is currently being played out, or even Turkey which has a fully functioning secular democracy now to some extent also wrestling with this issue. Therefore I was a little surprised to find you seeing these as tangents.

However as you have now raised Muslims in Europe I feel I am far better appraised of where you were wanting to take this. Having just batted that ball around the park in another thread I think I might, on this occasion, leave you to it.

Cheers.

Oh dear, sonofgloin.

>>A religion democratically overturns a secular state when the voters hit critical mass. Further to that I considered Europe and the new status quo when Muslims become the majority voting bloc... what instigated me was the thought that a religious state could be instituted democratically<<

Pity really, there were some interesting views emerging, but I think you might have put a stop to that, very effectively.

As you very well know, Adolf Hitler was "democratically elected", so the answer to your question is "yes, being a democracy does not prevent the emergence of a Dictator".

In reality - that is, in the real world inhabited by ordinary, thinking people - the likelihood of Islamic rule of countries like our own is about the same as that of the Brighton Ladies Lacrosse team winning the AFL Grand Final. That is, not completely impossible, but not worth putting any money on either.

But seriously, if you want a discussion on the possible emergence of an Australian, European or global Caliphate, at least have the intellectual honesty to declare it, up front.

Thanks to Lexi, by the way, for some very thoughtful contributions. Only one teensy quibble, Lexi, on your first statement...

>>"Democracy" actually comes from a Greek word meaning "rule of the people,"<<

"Rule of the people" is of course what we have come to understand the word to mean. However, the generally accepted components are "demos" and "kratos", and "demos" originally meant "district", specifically the districts within Attica. It survives in such words as "demographic", and "endemic". While "kratos" has been accepted as meaning "rule", its root is more closely associated with force, with a tinge of violence. Since it is unlikely the Athenians would have been super-keen on "governance of the people by force", linguists are now tending towards the view that a more appropriate root is "krisi", meaning "judgement".

So "demo krisi" would be "judgment of the towns", a concept far closer to the reality of the Athenian process.

But hey, it's only a word, and we all know what it really means, don't we.

Pericles>> Oh dear, sonofgloin.
Pity really, there were some interesting views emerging, but I think you have put a stop to that, very effectively.

But seriously, if you want a discussion on the possible emergence of an Australian, European or global Caliphate, at least have the intellectual honesty to declare it,<<

Pericles…..second paragraph of the opening thread:
>> It is a similar situation in most European countries with the Fundamentalist Muslims being the social engineers, using the birth rate as a natural progression to ruling via the ballot box in a democratic constitution<<

In fact the first paragraph carried an identical theme about the Ultra Orthodox Jews introducing a religious state.

I suppose I am just pondering the old Ballot Box or cannon scenario, and what comes after a ballot box victory that changes the social fabric of the Caucasian world.

This scenario on a micro scale is what set off Rabuka and his Fiji coups to reassert ethnic Fijian supremacy. I could understand Rabuka then and I understand now. Why should my blood line be swamped and ruled utilizing the terms of the current constitution by a SINGLE ethnic or religious import.

The days of colonization by cannon are over, it will be by sheer numbers using our democratic system to overcome us and institute a religious state, should we, like the Fijians, change the constitution to stop this event from occurring?

Pericles my less than liberal views on global social engineering have been exhibited on OLO from day one. Muslim immigration into a first world country where the inhabitants have a “replacement “birthrate of 2.2 will face the scenario I paint. If you think that the Muslim religious think tanks see you as anything other than vermin you are deluded. They meet daily all over Australia and in the moderate prayer rooms and in the firebrand prayer rooms they are taught that our society is decadent and wrong, while theirs is sacred. Muslims are a fifth column.

I’m innocent of intellectual deceit Pericles, moral deceit, interpersonal deceit….I’ve had my share of those.

Pericles,

"...the likelihood of Islamic rule of countries like our own is about the same as that of the Brighton Ladies Lacrosse team winning the AFL Grand Final..."

OMG - that's funny!

Line of year on OLO so far!

(I wish I'd had your wit on a recent incursion into whackamossie-land on the other thread)

Cheers

Poirot,

Even a phalanx of silver tongued I’ll-save-you John Symonds couldn’t have won the day for you.

Besides, as I recall that thread wasn’t about wackamossie --but rather, wack-an-ozzie (i.e. Belly).

Hey, just to show that there is no hard feels here’s a tip: I heard from a camp follower that the Brighton Women’s Lacrosse team is a good chance of taking out the next grand final of the AFL (i.e. the Australie Federation de Lacrosse) put some money on them.

Cheers