Dear Poirot,

Excellent article Thank You.
As you probably know my husband and I lived
and worked in the United States for close to
ten years. So I was familiar with the points
being made.

What I would like to see happen in this country
would be a trend towards a dealignment of party
loyalties. A breakdwon of traditional loyalties
in favour of a more fluid party system, in which
people pick and choose among personalities
and positions with little regard for party labels.
It would be great if we were able to vote for
candidates of each party for different offices.
This surely would not be unexpected in a post-industrial
society whose hallmarks are individualism and choice.
But then I know I'm dreaming.

We in the West have never had true democracy.Mayer Rothschild,"Give me control of a nation's currency,and I care not who makes the laws."

The West and most of the planet is enslaved in debt.New money that represents our productivity and inflation is created as debt.Eventually all the money in our economies is equal to all the debt.USA debt is now greater than it's GDP.The same exists throughout Europe and we are headed that way.The debt becomes impossible to pay off since the debt becomes greater than our combined incomes.

So the assumption that we have a real say in our economies is false.We live in a de-mock-racy run by an oligarchy of bankers,oil barons,drug cartels,military ,arms manufacturers and compliant Govt.

Lexi>> I find that the source of
difficulty lies in the way "freedom" is defined.
In our society we're primarily concerned with
freedom "Of":

Socialist societies - that claim to be "democratic"
are primarily concerned with freedom "from."<<

Lexi, the above statement is concise and well thought through. Freedom of, or freedom from, vast difference, but both are sold as freedoms.

Yututsu >> For your information, Sonofgloin, Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel are a distinct group from the Jewish settlers - and most of them are not even Zionist.<<

Y, thanks for broaching the example I gave. All others posters have run in a general tangent around the title of the thread....and there is no problem with that as the subject has more aspects than the examples I gave.

Yuyutsu, for your information.....Most settlers who squat on the Palestinians land are Zionists. The Ultra Orthodox is attracting more Israelis by the day from the ranks of:
Reconstructionist Judaism, Reformed and Conservative Judaism, Messianic Judaism, Sephardic Judaism, secular jews, etc etc.

As I mentioned it is a birth rate issue, one will come too demographically, and then democratically, rule the other. Ultra's have never voted en mass in elections, until recently...they are calling it the Jewish Spring. As Zionists and others adopt the Ultra Lifestyle they are no scared of the ballot box, in fact Haredi Jews are running for the Knesset....a first.

Don't know what the "for your information" was, but I have a grasp on the subject thanks.

The strongest argument I have seen that democracy does not protect freedom is by Robert Higgs in his book, 'Delusions of Power', published last year.

Higgs argues that the belief that it is the role of the state to defend the individual’s right to life, liberty and property is closer to wishful thinking than a description of how democracies have actually functioned. He notes that some major political decisions in the United States – such as involvement in the First World War and the expansion of federal government responsibilities during the great depression – were contrary to the political platforms of the presidents concerned in preceding elections. During war times and other crises, many restrictions on freedom that would not be tolerated during normal times have received strong public support. Having tolerated them, however, many people tend to regard them as normal or even desirable.

I hope Higgs is wrong about the idea that democracies defending freedom being just wishful thinking. Democracies do not have a particularly good track record in defending freedom, but as others have already mentioned in this forum, the alternatives are unlikely to be better.

In my view democracy is worth defending because it provides the potential for tyrants to be voted out of office.

I'm with you on this one Lexi,as I have often said that any democratic rights we may have are taken away as soon as we exit the polling booths.

A classic example was the 2010 fed election, whereby elected members of parliament decided who would govern, rather than the voting public.

In 07, an overwhelming number of voters voted for Keving Rud, only to see him chopped off at the knees, a move that has left many still complaining today.

Dear rehctub,

I guess that's the problem with the party system.
They can replace leaders as they see fit.
I think you'd need nerves of steel, thick skin,
and keep your mouth shut,
to survive in the game. I recently watched the
TV program "Kitchen Cabinet," with Annabel Crabbe
interviewing various pollies. It was interesting
to watch Julie Bishop being interviewed in her own
kitchen over cooking lunch. The lady made quite
an impression and was totally different from the
persona we see on "Question Time," in Parliament.
As she said - if you want to survive in politics
you "toe the Party line or else!"