I don't know what you're all on about...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_veIGGP1Uh4

: )

A 12-year old in a small country town 'borrowed' a pushbike for a ride. To discourage him from a life of crime, his responsible, employed and naively well-meaning father took him to the local police station and asked the cop to give him a lecture and show him the cells. Instead the boy was arrested and sent to a reform school. Released some years later, he returned to his family, now totally desocialised by the experience. When he saw his sister bashed by her boyfriend, he defended her and in the process killed the boyfriend. Now in jail for murder, he goes mad and commits suicide (in a rather horrible way).

Many years later, on a bright sunny morning in her lovely garden, I heard this story from his sister as she gently described how this had traumatised the family - it was in apology for not attending a meeting because she had to handle a current family crisis.

The family is Aboriginal and you can find the full account in the Aboriginal Deaths in Custody reports.

I am sure some readers will say, oh that's different, what about the young hardened criminals, or the rapist gang. However if children are acting this way, they are just reflecting society (eg that you can rape women with impunity in India, not to mention the imbalance between petty thefts and stock market manipulation, legal v. illegal drugs.) Punishing the individuals harshly is dealing with the symptoms not the disease

A couple of the comments have referred to the parents of kids.

I suspect that in a lot of cases there is a lot to be said for that but its not all clear cut. There is poorly handled government interference that in some circumstances can hinder parents from dealing with discipline effectively and in some cases provides significant incentives for not doing so.

I don't think (as some seem to have suggested in the past) that kids will automatically choose the parent who acts the most responsibly regarding their upbringing. A lack of rules or a lack of consistant enforcement of those rules has a lot of appeal even if it's at a cost.

For parents in seperated families division of property and child support formulas both being related to child residency can have massive impacts on the lives of the parents beyond the issue of being involved in the childrens lives. There can be a massive conflict of interest when it comes to dealing with some parenting issues and the consequences of not being the parent children prefer to live with.

It can become a choice about likely gains vs overwhelming consequences to end up on the wrong side of that equation.

I'm not current on the rules around it now but I know that in the past there were also concerns raised about payments to teens who chose to move out of home because they didn't like the rules (seperate from issues if child protection).

Messages designed to protect kids from predators don't seem to have enough emphasis on the other parts of the picture. Kids who know its their body and they are in charge of it don't seem to be taught at an appropriate level by those teaching that message about the need for the adults in their lives to be able to make decisions about the children.

R0bert

My suggestions.

1) If a child under 18 commits a crime (but not rape, murder assault with a weapon or in company) they are given some community service.

2) if that child does it again they get treated as an adult on a second offense (after all they know it was wrong and did it anyway)

3)if a child commits a crime in the company of another who has previously been convicted item 1) does not apply and they are sentenced as in item 2)

4) Cases involving rape, murder and assault in company or with a weapon are given NO leniency.

5) Stop accepting "I was tortured by the Taliban" or I am from a broken home or I was ______ whatever, as an excuse.

** Statistics are to be kept on magistrates and judges, and who passes through there courts if the statistics show a pattern of them continually giving light sentences to multiple repeat offenders THEY ARE REMOVED FROM the court system.

On the original question.

The material I've seen on brain development is fairly clear that juvenile brains don't generally work the same way that adult brains do.

For me the question is not much about punishment but about the most likely long term outcomes for the individual and society.

If a child commits a crime resulting in harm to others and there is no corrective action whats the lesson they learn? On what basis can we credibly expect them to make different choices when they turn 18?

The corrective action which gives the best likely hood of improved future prospects is probably not jail but should involve both some form of restitution and as well as involvement in treatment programs. Treat the crime as a signal that something is going badly wrong in a childs life which requires intervention both for the sake of the child and of everyone else around them.

R0bert

Philip S,

You've made some very good points, but logic appears to fly out the window when children are discussed.
There are too many physcholgists, social workers, and judges in children's courts who appear to be too willing to accept what they are told by children.
Children lie and manipulate emotions very well. As one 14 year old boy told me, he gave them the answers which would get him a lighter sentence, and not one bit of it was the truth.

It is true that lack of parental control, dysfuntional families and lower socio-economic backgrounds play a vital role in children's lives, but intervention in early or late teens is already too late. The recidivism rate is high - proof that our present methods do not work.

A child becomes inured to harsh punishment, and takes advantage of perceived leniency.

Incarceration for a minor offence gives them access to tuition from their peers on how to commit more serious offences, which is often the case.

The young people who have babies only have their own childhood experiences and examples set by parents as a child rearing guideline. Maybe this should be our starting point - educate the parents, and prospective parents.

In the U.S., young offenders are taken into adult jails to hear from the inmates for themselves how crime doesn't pay, but will only lead them into a downward spiral. Haven't seen any stastitics on whether this has influenced their own lives, but maybe this is worth our consideration?

Giving back more authority to police and teachers would also be of benefit. Teaching children respect should be part of a school curriculum. Currently so many kids lack any respect for anyone at all.
The little things like giving up a seat on a bus or train for elderly people has all but disappeared, though I note some Asian students do this.

Children will always test boundaries. They're smart enough to realise that now the boundaries have to a great extent been removed, they're free to do as they please with little repercussion.