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The Forum > General Discussion > Punishment for Minors

Punishment for Minors

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I was wondering what people thought of youngsters getting less penalty for crime than adults. Should a 16 year old rapist get less than a 19 year old? It seems in India where many are calling for castration for rapist that they may face this dilemma.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/indian-gang-rape-suspect-may-be-juvenile/story-e6frf7jo-1226546320132
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 2 January 2013 7:11:20 PM
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To me you missed a more important part of the story that defies logic.

Quote "But juveniles - those below 18 years of age - cannot be prosecuted for murder."

So if you want someone killed just get a 17 YO to do it.
Posted by Philip S, Wednesday, 2 January 2013 9:36:34 PM
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Well, my experience is that the value of the equipment stolen by 12-16 year olds is the same as if it were to have been stolen by adults.
I would like to see 12 year old budding career criminals being dealt with harshly. Past & present pussy-footing encourages them to get ever more bold. This costs us tens of millions a year. If a juvenile offender gets caught a second time then the magistrate/defence lawyer from the first offence should be made to compensate the victim.
You'd soon see a marked change in prosecution.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 2 January 2013 9:38:30 PM
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I think we should all be careful about what we wish for.

If we want to treat child criminals the same as adults, then we should also lower the age at which it is legal to drink, vote, drive, leave home and have sex.

Some may think this is stretching the point, but is it?
Either children over 12 and under 18 are adults, or they aren't.
You can't have it both ways.
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 2 January 2013 10:34:44 PM
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Suseonline,
So what do you suggest should be done about the victim ? Do you really believe if juveniles aren't punished they won't continue to practise getting away with all sorts of crime ?
I agree that they shouldn't be treated the same as adults but handling crims be they young or old with kids' gloves is what has gotten the problems we're having now.
Get a National Service up & running NOW ! Anyone as young as 9 or 10 gets thrown into a special school where physical punishment is part of the curriculum. Don't agree with that ? Fine, you just pay me for the damage.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 2 January 2013 11:24:28 PM
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I doubt the child criminals would ever be able to 'pay for the damage' Individual, and not their parents either I'm betting.

Sending them to army camps and teaching them that a good beating will solve all problems is not going to help either.

What comes first do you think... the criminal child , or their criminal parent?
I believe the serious criminally charged children should be removed from their parents and given to other respected adults who can try and instill better behaviour into them.
I like the idea of sending them to stations or farms to learn how to work the land and work with animals etc.

I am not convinced that locking minors up for any length of time in prisons is any good because they only learn more criminal behaviours and keep offending upon release.
Posted by Suseonline, Thursday, 3 January 2013 1:19:33 AM
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The farms have been sold to foreign interests, foreign governments too, and they import their workers. Country towns are dying and in their death throes have become havens for swearing, spitting, violent drunks on sit-down money. The odd exception, where youths can get supervised support is just that, an exception, and proves the rule.

Nothing is being said about those who, regardless of education, rehabilitation, counselling and support are still going to commit crimes. Punishment is still relevant.

Likewise nothing is being said about the possible contributions of social change and policy to youth problems. Who knows for example what negative effect the dramatic increase in single parent households and fatherless families is having? What about boys failing in education? Why so?
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 3 January 2013 3:07:47 AM
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So what do you suggest should be done about the victim ?
Suseonline,
How about an idea for a step towards bettering the situation ? Or, don't decent people who got the rough end of the stick not count ? You don't happen to work for the Civil Libertarians do you ?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 3 January 2013 6:54:19 AM
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The parents of these kids want looking into. If the parents are irresponsible, what hope is there for any kids involved.
Bashing cense into kids is futile if the main cause is still there.
Posted by 579, Thursday, 3 January 2013 7:07:32 AM
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I did make a suggestion Individual.
So people who don't agree with physical punishment of child criminals are civil libertarians are they ?

There are no easy answers, but the only unhelpful one you have come up with are beatings.
Beatings only serve to teach young people it is ok to beat others...
Posted by Suseonline, Thursday, 3 January 2013 9:01:53 AM
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Suseonline>> If we want to treat child criminals the same as adults, then we should also lower the age at which it is legal to drink, vote, drive, leave home and have sex <<

There is certainly a principal in there, whether it translates to a practical trade off apart from principal is of course debatable, but your point is valid.
Suse I vividly recall my eldest brother was back from fighting in Vietnam and he had just turned 21. He swore he was going to vote for the Labor party because they wanted out of Vietnam. Our conscripts and some army regs were old enough to die, but not to vote.

579 >> The parents of these kids want looking into. If the parents are irresponsible, what hope is there for any kids involved. Bashing cense into kids is futile if the main cause is still there.<<

579, I am not a psychologist but I am old enough to recall when a school of 400 kids had a handful of kids from broken homes…..a handful. I grew up in a poor socioeconomic suburb but as I remember the kids, who really went off the rails and continued running off, came predominantly from the broken homes, ones that had no male authority figure.

That is not to say that kids from “complete” households never had the cops chasing them for something or other, but they for the most part got back onto the rails. The kids from broken homes generally did not.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 3 January 2013 9:22:17 AM
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the justice system seems to treat young offenders differently because they believe that their is more chance of rehabilitation. That might or might not be true. I think the victim or the victims family should have a large say in determining the punishment. Usually they are more in touch with things than judges. Most Aussies would be horrified if they knew just a little of the many crimes committed by those in juvenile justice systems. Really they are training grounds for more crime in many instances.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 3 January 2013 9:40:54 AM
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I don't know what you're all on about...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_veIGGP1Uh4

: )
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 3 January 2013 9:41:25 AM
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A 12-year old in a small country town 'borrowed' a pushbike for a ride. To discourage him from a life of crime, his responsible, employed and naively well-meaning father took him to the local police station and asked the cop to give him a lecture and show him the cells. Instead the boy was arrested and sent to a reform school. Released some years later, he returned to his family, now totally desocialised by the experience. When he saw his sister bashed by her boyfriend, he defended her and in the process killed the boyfriend. Now in jail for murder, he goes mad and commits suicide (in a rather horrible way).

Many years later, on a bright sunny morning in her lovely garden, I heard this story from his sister as she gently described how this had traumatised the family - it was in apology for not attending a meeting because she had to handle a current family crisis.

The family is Aboriginal and you can find the full account in the Aboriginal Deaths in Custody reports.

I am sure some readers will say, oh that's different, what about the young hardened criminals, or the rapist gang. However if children are acting this way, they are just reflecting society (eg that you can rape women with impunity in India, not to mention the imbalance between petty thefts and stock market manipulation, legal v. illegal drugs.) Punishing the individuals harshly is dealing with the symptoms not the disease
Posted by Cossomby, Thursday, 3 January 2013 10:02:02 AM
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A couple of the comments have referred to the parents of kids.

I suspect that in a lot of cases there is a lot to be said for that but its not all clear cut. There is poorly handled government interference that in some circumstances can hinder parents from dealing with discipline effectively and in some cases provides significant incentives for not doing so.

I don't think (as some seem to have suggested in the past) that kids will automatically choose the parent who acts the most responsibly regarding their upbringing. A lack of rules or a lack of consistant enforcement of those rules has a lot of appeal even if it's at a cost.

For parents in seperated families division of property and child support formulas both being related to child residency can have massive impacts on the lives of the parents beyond the issue of being involved in the childrens lives. There can be a massive conflict of interest when it comes to dealing with some parenting issues and the consequences of not being the parent children prefer to live with.

It can become a choice about likely gains vs overwhelming consequences to end up on the wrong side of that equation.

I'm not current on the rules around it now but I know that in the past there were also concerns raised about payments to teens who chose to move out of home because they didn't like the rules (seperate from issues if child protection).

Messages designed to protect kids from predators don't seem to have enough emphasis on the other parts of the picture. Kids who know its their body and they are in charge of it don't seem to be taught at an appropriate level by those teaching that message about the need for the adults in their lives to be able to make decisions about the children.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 3 January 2013 10:12:43 AM
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My suggestions.

1) If a child under 18 commits a crime (but not rape, murder assault with a weapon or in company) they are given some community service.

2) if that child does it again they get treated as an adult on a second offense (after all they know it was wrong and did it anyway)

3)if a child commits a crime in the company of another who has previously been convicted item 1) does not apply and they are sentenced as in item 2)

4) Cases involving rape, murder and assault in company or with a weapon are given NO leniency.

5) Stop accepting "I was tortured by the Taliban" or I am from a broken home or I was ______ whatever, as an excuse.

** Statistics are to be kept on magistrates and judges, and who passes through there courts if the statistics show a pattern of them continually giving light sentences to multiple repeat offenders THEY ARE REMOVED FROM the court system.
Posted by Philip S, Thursday, 3 January 2013 11:22:16 AM
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On the original question.

The material I've seen on brain development is fairly clear that juvenile brains don't generally work the same way that adult brains do.

For me the question is not much about punishment but about the most likely long term outcomes for the individual and society.

If a child commits a crime resulting in harm to others and there is no corrective action whats the lesson they learn? On what basis can we credibly expect them to make different choices when they turn 18?

The corrective action which gives the best likely hood of improved future prospects is probably not jail but should involve both some form of restitution and as well as involvement in treatment programs. Treat the crime as a signal that something is going badly wrong in a childs life which requires intervention both for the sake of the child and of everyone else around them.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 3 January 2013 12:16:08 PM
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Philip S,

You've made some very good points, but logic appears to fly out the window when children are discussed.
There are too many physcholgists, social workers, and judges in children's courts who appear to be too willing to accept what they are told by children.
Children lie and manipulate emotions very well. As one 14 year old boy told me, he gave them the answers which would get him a lighter sentence, and not one bit of it was the truth.

It is true that lack of parental control, dysfuntional families and lower socio-economic backgrounds play a vital role in children's lives, but intervention in early or late teens is already too late. The recidivism rate is high - proof that our present methods do not work.

A child becomes inured to harsh punishment, and takes advantage of perceived leniency.

Incarceration for a minor offence gives them access to tuition from their peers on how to commit more serious offences, which is often the case.

The young people who have babies only have their own childhood experiences and examples set by parents as a child rearing guideline. Maybe this should be our starting point - educate the parents, and prospective parents.

In the U.S., young offenders are taken into adult jails to hear from the inmates for themselves how crime doesn't pay, but will only lead them into a downward spiral. Haven't seen any stastitics on whether this has influenced their own lives, but maybe this is worth our consideration?

Giving back more authority to police and teachers would also be of benefit. Teaching children respect should be part of a school curriculum. Currently so many kids lack any respect for anyone at all.
The little things like giving up a seat on a bus or train for elderly people has all but disappeared, though I note some Asian students do this.

Children will always test boundaries. They're smart enough to realise that now the boundaries have to a great extent been removed, they're free to do as they please with little repercussion.
Posted by worldwatcher, Thursday, 3 January 2013 12:58:01 PM
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worldwatcher - You missed the most important thing "Giving back more authority" to the parents if a parent hits or slaps a child they can be charged with assault.

Also Parents should have to do a course or something to teach them how to properly discipline a child (when that is a tried and tested methodology) before they can have them.

Some parents are just no good.

Some parents are good but the child still turns out to be a ratbag.

This issue needs more research and study as Australia is getting more like to US every year and that is a scary thought.
Metal detectors at school gates kids going to class with knives etc.
Posted by Philip S, Thursday, 3 January 2013 1:09:12 PM
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When I first joined the coppers, the age for 'Criminal Capacity' was seven years and raised by Statute to eight years. That was quite some time ago.

Now with the lamentable imposition into the equation, of all our 'highly qualified' social engineers, left wing politicians and many, many others who've formed a view that kids can NEVER do any wrong. I'd not be at all surprised, that even me, at age 70 might yet prove too young, to answer a criminal charge ?

Believe me folks, some of the horrific crimes that I've seen, committed by 12,13 up to 17 years of age 'kids' of both sexes, would absolutely astonish, even confound you, with the degree of savagery and violence !

I used to shudder, both as a father and now a grandfather, at what's happening to our precious young ?

And at the risk of sounding like a really obnoxious 'know all', I DO know how to stop it ! But who's listening ?

Cheers...Sung wu.

PS: All the very best to everyone herein, for 2013.
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 3 January 2013 1:33:22 PM
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another nightly event for Perth

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/women-63-and-65-caught-in-savage-gang-attack-in-lathkain-street/story-e6frg12c-1226546985030

I suspect more slaps over the wrist
Posted by runner, Thursday, 3 January 2013 1:51:25 PM
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Suse we have played the softly softly games for over 30 years, & young criminals continue to proliferate at an increasing rate. The viciousness of their crimes escalate as they learn they are untouchable.

Time to turn the other way, & bring out the big stick. Perhaps we could import some cane wielders from Singapore. Their system has got the desired result.

The recent case of a couple being viciously attacked with a box knife is a prime example. Out on bail for the 3Rd time, this is also the 3Rd time this kid has attacked with a knife, & now he is out again.

I, like an increasing number of folk are no longer interested in rehabilitation, or even any useless attempt at such rubbish. What we demand is these psychopaths be locked up, permanently. We want them off the streets, & out of decent peoples lives.

If you want to bleed all over this waste of space, go do so, but only in a secure facility, where your failure will only result in injury to you, & not the innocent people he likes to attack.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 3 January 2013 2:41:47 PM
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Hi there RUNNER & HASBEEN...

Everything you say is correct...everything ! But you know what, nothing will change, there'll be many words uttered by our brilliant Pollies, the 'social engineers' and the many academics who advise governments, but you know and I know, nothing will change.............. nothing at all !

Cheers...A totally disillusioned Sung Wu.
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 3 January 2013 3:15:24 PM
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Suseonline “Either children over 12 and under 18 are adults, or they aren't.
You can't have it both ways.”

But we already do.

“the age at which it is legal to drink, vote, drive, leave home and have sex”

But there isn't a uniform definition across the board.
There are differing ages at which people can do various things.

This is no doubt confusing for young people.
(“I'm mature enough to do this, but not that? Hmmm.”).

Perhaps there should be a uniform “age of maturity”, but what age?
No matter where you draw the line, it's arbitrary.
Some people will mature (mentally and physically) earlier or later than others.
And for crimes, "maturity" is what's lacking!

“I believe the serious criminally charged children should be removed from their parents and given to other respected adults who can try and instill better behaviour into them.”

A little late by then, unless they're committing murder at age 3.

Even dysfunctional families are still “family”.
Tearing messed-up kids away from their homes and local friendships could make them even worse.
If “the family” is the problem, then don't you need to "treat/counsel" the whole lot?

Cossomby, your story is serious, but reminds me of a more humourous anecdote.
Alfred Hitchcock's father once sent him to the police station (with a note) for being “naughty”.
The cops played along and (briefly) locked him in a cell. (“This is what happens to naughty boys”).

The cops would *never* do that now. Everyone is too hyper-serious and policy-constrained.
Exactly why they reacted the way they did in your story.
Posted by Shockadelic, Thursday, 3 January 2013 3:59:18 PM
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Shockadelic I guess I'm just lucky to have come from such a brilliant generation. We weren't confused, despite similar variation in ages to attain certain privileges.

We had to be 17 to get a drivers licence, 18 to join the army, & 21 to get married, without parental permission, or sign a contract without a guarantor.

We didn't have shooters licences back then, but we used to issue WW11 army 303 rifles to the school cadets to take home, walking, riding, or on the school bus without any legal problem. Of course those kids had to be 14, a ripe old age.

I had been carrying a 22, & a mattock, when the mates & I went rabbeting since I was about 12, so that must have been OK too. We didn't shoot many rabbits, skins with a hole in them weren't worth much. We preferred to dig them out of the warrens, as those skins had to pay for things like bicycles, foot ball boots, & for me, even a horse. All the things our parents could not afford to buy us, but we wanted very much came that way. Funny, we never thought of pinching someone else's stuff, may be because we weren't confused.

Yes I guess I was lucky, but mostly because if a local cop had found us being antisocial in any way, he would have sent us on our way, off the toe of his boot. Somethings you have to have experienced to appreciate.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 3 January 2013 4:35:58 PM
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o sung wu

the problem is that ex coppers like yourself who have seen things first hand never get to affect policy. Often it is high paid public servants living in leafy suburbs and exempt from the effects of crime that have most say. Often they bang on about rehabilation whilst being in denial of its hopeless failure in the vast majority of cases.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 3 January 2013 4:37:08 PM
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You're quite right there RUNNER. Nevertheless, I'm of the belief, police should be encouraged to articulate their OPINIONS and VIEWS on certain matters more often, rather than observing the official line or position of 'no comment' ?

Of course, particular details specific to the 'facts in issue', cannot be spoken of,('sub judice') before the conclusion of all court activity, otherwise it could harm the Crown's case. Or, inhibit the accused person from mounting an effective defence, or alternatively furnishing exculpatory evidence, of his or her innocence ?

The criminal law is a real quagmire of technicalities, as I'm sure you appreciate RUNNER ?

Cheers...Sung wu.
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 3 January 2013 5:35:33 PM
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Hasbeen, "We had to be 17 to get a drivers licence, 18 to join the army, & 21 to get married, without parental permission, or sign a contract without a guarantor."

The drinking age was 21. I would argue for a return to that. Excepting for soldiers serving on active duty, where the age should be lower.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 3 January 2013 5:50:45 PM
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I like that we differentiate between adult and child and punish accordingly. I'm horrified at the inadequate sentencing handed down on various cases but we've got to remember these are kids and up to a point they should be treated that way. If the crimes are bad enough then bang on their door when they're 18.
Posted by StG, Thursday, 3 January 2013 6:56:30 PM
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Onthebeach,

I heartily endorse that, and they should have to provide i.d. to prove they are over 21.

Unfortunately, many of the drunken louts are even older than that, so what to do about them?

I started work immediately after my 15th birthday, and stayed fully employed from then on.
I have personal knowledge of one of the aforementioned louts who is 29, and hasn't worked hardly at all since leaving school. Still living at home, not contributing, and uses his dole money to binge drink every weekend. His parents are much more tolerant than I would be with him. He'd have been shown the door long ago. His is not an isolated case either. The crowd he hangs with are all a bunch of no hopers, and this is what are taxes are supporting?

Not relevant to this thread in any way - but have you heard Andrew deLeon sing? A voice so different in I couldn't even guess how many millions.

o sung wu,
Our police are frustrated at not having a greater say regarding their vital role. One has to feel sorry for them - they [pardon the pun] cop far too much abuse and flak these days. They are grossly underpaid for the job they do!

Hasbeen,

Do share, just what did you do to feel the copper's boot?

A threat from my parents that they would even call the police was enough to keep me on the straight and narrow. We need to give the police back some authority to be able to deal directly with kids, and then to be backed up by the judiciary. No wonder their morale is at an all time low. They have a thankless task - not a career I would want to persue in our present times.
Posted by worldwatcher, Thursday, 3 January 2013 6:58:05 PM
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WW I don't know that I had any feelings about it, it was just the way it was.

A bit of a goody goody, I never suffered the long arm of the law, but knew a few who did. I don't know which was the worst for them, the cop dragging them home by the ear, or what their father did to them when they got there. None of this bleeding heart stuff back then, it was more like a bleeding backside, after your father finished with you.

I suffered very few beltings, but I can assure you, they made me obedient, not rebellious.

The toughest kids in our town, some mixed race, but all treated the same, were almost to a kid, in the police boys club. Some went for the boxing, but I was in the basket ball & football teams. There was no anti cop stuff.

I played hooker, & had 2 of the toughest as props. When we went to school cadet camp, & initiation was applying boot polish to kids private parts, we 3 formed our front row, & no one bothered us at all.

Yes there were a few punch-ups, but they were not viscous, & if anyone had ever pulled a knife, [the cowards weapon], they would have found their arm ripped off & jammed up their back passage, & that would have been by their mates. Weapons were just not acceptable in polite or tough company back then.

Life was much cleaner & civil, when the cops had the authority to enforce the law, with out reference to sissy stuff like courts & magistrates. Families knew they would have been run out of town if their kids caused trouble, let alone went rampaging like they do today.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 3 January 2013 8:34:29 PM
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What you're saying, Hasbeen, is that people in the locality had something to do with each other back then. A neighbourhood was a community, somewhere where the kids gathered and their folks probably knew each other, where there would be collection of shops or such like places that were common to the people around.

I am going to say that before all these things were centralised, and people began to commute in mobile capsules to places away from their local environs for work and shopping, that a community and its environs were something that especially a young person would identify with. If a place and your connection with it and its people becomes part of your identity then you're less likely to damage its property or harm its inhabitants.

You know, I think something is horribly awry in the story of late capitalism. I gave my son permission to watch the local news every evening (as opposed to the national news) In the old days, the local news was pretty innocuous - so I was expecting it'd be full of who's grown the biggest potato and things like that. This is regional WA, and every night he is treated to a litany of disgusting and heartless crimes that take place around the regional centres in WA.

What's happening?
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 3 January 2013 8:48:58 PM
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I might add that my reference to the "old days" was meant to refer to about a decade ago, around the time my son was born. Back then, that relatively short time ago, the really horrible crimes, the assaults. etc happened in the capital cities...not any more.

Since he's been watching this news bulletin, I'm astounded at the crime that is reported in regional centres every day...and particularly the sheer number of assaults and general violent crime.
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 3 January 2013 8:56:34 PM
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Suseonline,
Why the twisting of the gist ? Who's talking about beatings ? You still haven't offered any ideas re compensating victims either. Discipline is not about beating. A beating would certainly go a long way towards discipline if considerate approaches are being disregarded.
Civil Libertarians are doing more damage & further the course of social decline than many of those incompetent Magistrates & ignorant Jurors.
The old adage you've got to be cruel to be kind is now more true than ever. Killing perpetrators with kindness merely kills the decent.
ps. Don't forget to offer an idea.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 3 January 2013 9:23:04 PM
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Good evening to you HASBEEN...

You mention 'the long arm of the law', I'm very much afraid the arm is now rather 'stunted', metaphorically speaking. They have the necessary powers, but acting upon them, can and does cause some ire amongst our political masters, who (unfailingly) seem to know best.

Yet whenever a pivotal crime does occur, one that's implicating our younger youth, their immediate retort is to blame it on everyone (including police) but themselves. But in reality, it's usually a consequence of their own ommission to act, by failing to sanction a meaningful resolution to the problem(s).

Hi there WORLDWATCHER...

You mention coppers should have a better salary or words to that effect, couldn't agree with you more ! I only hope they make any substantial salary rise, retrospective for us old retirees ? LOL.

Seriously, today most police earn quite good money, despite what many will say. The only real impost is the job itself ? Still that's another, very very long story, and I'm wandering right off topic here.

Cheers...Sung Wu.
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 3 January 2013 9:37:44 PM
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Yes Poirot, I think there was some of that, but there was also more respect for perhaps the law, or perhaps for each other. These were the days when you didn't lock the doors when you went out, getting robbed was just not something that happened.

With few law breakers around the cops came down on any wrong doing, like a ton of bricks. I think that helped.

Yes before TV people did things like had card nights, & actually got to know each other, but perhaps with "things" being more expensive, & harder to get, they respected others property more. I had mates playing football bare foot, on ice puddles, who would never think of pinching a pair of boots.

Parents never even considered driving into town to pick up a kid after sports training or an honors class after school. If they stayed after the bus, they had to have someone in town put them up.

We had one or more of these country kids, [from 10 or 15 miles out of town], staying with us 3 or 4 nights a week. It was the parents of these kids who became my folks best friends.

Life in general was kinder. You never drove past a car stopped beside the road, without checking if they needed help. No mobiles of course.

When I moved to Sydney getting mugged was not something you ever worried about. I think the discipline imposed on kids by families, often with the stick, did lead to better self discipline as they grew up.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 3 January 2013 11:59:51 PM
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There is no point banging on about 'the good ol days', as far as law and order is concerned. We live in a far different world now, and we can't go back to those relatively innocent times.
Mind you, we haven't had a World War in recent times!

The only way anything re punishment for minors, or indeed for the increasingly violent adult criminals, will change is if the Government legislates for more fitting punishments.
But why haven't they done so by now?

Surely we have more people who want to be tough against crime than the so called bleeding hearts brigade?

I don't see Indonesia as a great leader in punishment for crimes. I think the death penalty should never be allowed here again, because it is an easy way out for nasty criminals, and it is too late if the dead person is later found to be innocent.

I don't have the answers, but I'm certainly not alone...
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 4 January 2013 12:26:23 AM
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Suse,

Whatever the government legislates for will only ever be a band aid.

There is something very sick about a fortunate society that produces such behaviour - and unless we address the underlying causes (which means examining the route catalysts of anti-social behaviour) we'll always be playing catch-up.

Of course, that route would take a bit of soul searching, wise counsel and societal self-criticism - and even then it's unlikely we'd have the will to address the underlying causes in real terms.

Whatever bonded communities "in the old days" is certainly absent in the new - and unless we can find a substitute, we're in for a rough ride.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 4 January 2013 1:09:14 AM
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Hasbeen,

You jogged a few memories there. Remember when we went out we left a key in the front door. If a mate dropped by he could let himself in and make a cuppa, and leave a note.

Another one was how we could leave our car windows down, and not even think that someone would come along and pinch anything out of it.

And perhaps my most important memory of the corner deli was the one that started the brain cells banging around again. Today's youth have never experienced neigbourly rapport, or knowing that small communities help each other, and effectively keep watch over them - and act as surrogate police at times too.

Could the answer be as simple as creating smaller communites instead of sprawling soulless suburbs where there is little or no neighbour interaction? We've lost that old sense of community, haven't we? And it slipped away without us realising it.
Posted by worldwatcher, Friday, 4 January 2013 1:49:40 AM
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The only thing that can deter an offender is the certainty of being arrested. That would reduce the frequency of their crimes but it would not stop them. More redundant laws and doubling or tripling penalties does nothing. Offenders do not believe they will be caught. Anyway, a custodial sentence is a holiday from responsibilities, and there are 'girlfriends' inside.

Cars in particular have made detection far more difficult. They offer many advantages to an offender, anonymity for instance. I would like to see some form of drivers licence restriction considered for all crimes. From surrender of licence for a serious crime, even if a vehicle was not used in the commission of the offence, to restriction for lengthy times to vehicle use only where necessary for employment. People should be of good character to obtain and hold a drivers licence. Anyone who isn't should have restrictions on use at minimum.

Overcrowding and loss of sense of community also ease the way of an offender. Intelligent town planning and design can reduce problem features. I don't mean taking the easy way out by putting video surveillance everywhere.

For offenders, the knowledge that they have full rights and more so than their victims and can use free legal representation to sue for damages if the homeowner's poodle nips them, and hopefully capital punishment for the vicious pooch, is icing on the cake. It suits criminals, especially sex offenders and burglars that the victim is at definite risk of arrest, public humiliation and a possible sentence if s/he defends vigorously against an attacker. Is it any wonder that sex offences and burglaries are in epidemic numbers and many (most?) cases remain on the books. That is certainly true for burglaries.

Returning to minors, police tell me that their call-outs are usually to the same families. For many minors the behaviour is being modelled in the home. That applies in spades to hated of authority and society. Substance abuse is usually involved.
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 4 January 2013 5:49:18 AM
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I don't see Indonesia as a great leader in punishment for crimes.
Suseonline,
Come again ? I think a few slaps & 3 months in the clink for stealing a mobile phone is a lot better than letting them off. Australian Judiciary could learn a lot from Indonesia. One problem though that many new legal people up there are now being educated in Australian Law schools. Too bad because they have way more effective deterrents than here.
Posted by individual, Friday, 4 January 2013 7:39:25 AM
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Punishment as a deterrent for minors?

I can just see irate and influential
upper-middle class parents insisting
that their son's vandalism was simply
a prank and his drunkenness only a
momentary "sowing of wild oats."

While at the same time - indifferent,
powerless, lower-class parents may
acquiesce to the law's definition
of their son's behaviour.

This pattern of deviancy is re-inforced
in our society and breaking away from it
becomes increasingly unlikely.

Once children acquire an image of themselves
as deviants, they might select new friends
who affirm that self image. And as that self-
conception becomes more firmly entrenched
youngsters may become willing to try new
and more extreme deviances. With their
growing alienation comes freer expressions of
disrespect and hostility for representatives of
legitimate society.

This disrespect increases the society's
negativism, perpetuating the entire process of
commitment to deviance.

Selective perception and labeling - finding,
processing and punishing some kinds of criminality and
not others - means that visible, poor, undiplomatic
"tough" kids will be noticed, whether their actions
are serious or not. Whereas other kids who have
established a reputation for being involved in
respectable activities will become invisible when
they deviate from sanctioned activities.

They'll "sow their wild oats," even wider and
thicker than their lower-class cohorts - but they
won't be noticed.

When it's time to leave adolescence most will follow
the expected path, settling into the ways of the
middle-class. Others, through being punished by the
police and the community will channel their careers
consistent with their adolescent background.

I'm not suggesting that nothing be done for serious
crimes - but looking at the causes rather than simply
punishing seems like a better option in this
complicated issue.
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 4 January 2013 9:33:52 AM
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Lexi,
excellent assessment. However, there's no getting away from punishment being the most effective deterrent.
Posted by individual, Friday, 4 January 2013 10:54:26 AM
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Dear Individual,

The difficulty lies in giving a sentence most
likely to deter re-offending and to promote
rehabilitation. This is made even more difficult
becauase I believe that the laws vary from
state to state. One Magistrate tries to make the
punishment fit the offender rather than the crime.
But again this could be problematic depending on
the Magistrate's perception (and labeling) of
certain offenders.

Perhaps that's why justice wears a blindfold.
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 4 January 2013 12:22:32 PM
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Perhaps that's why justice wears a blindfold.
Lexi,
yes and you can't see the ear plugs either. When I witnessed a chap being slapped around a little by real Policemen it became clear that he wasn't going to steal another phone.
The louts where I live on the contrary actually got away with smashing a Policeman's private car, the Police car, another two Policemen's front door & they still didn't get punished.
Government housing is never immune to damage either & no-one's charged.
Yes our system is great.
Posted by individual, Friday, 4 January 2013 12:33:51 PM
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Hi there LEXI, I do agree with much of what you've written, I'm surprised too at how much traction this topic has got ? Clearly, it's an issue that concerns us all. Therefore, why are our pollies ommitting to act ?

Something that's always intrigued me, I can't recall the number of times we've arrested a 'young person', and before we can put questions to that 'young person' we first must get a parent, or if unavailable, a responsible adult NOT connected to police, to be present before we can ask junior a single question.

Consequently, junior is usually locked in a cell (on his own), you go around to his parents abode in order to get one or both to accompany you back to the Station, and they're out - often down the club/pub, totally unaware that their little 'junior' instead of being in bed, is out and about committing crimes with gay abandon. While his parent's are out having fun.

I believe the root cause of most juvenile crime, starts with the parents. Imposition of harder punishment(s) by the Courts is simply treating the effect, rather than the cause ?

QUALITY parental control and love are what's needed initially. Parent(s) should provide a positive example of how to behave.

Another huge problem, there's absolutely no discipline in the government school system. Teachers are not permitted to exercise any discipline, other than to mildly rebuke a kid for misbehaviour.

Private schools do fare a little better, though you'd never think so by the behaviour of their charges during 'schoolies week' ?
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 4 January 2013 1:17:17 PM
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o sung wu,
The thing that gets to me is that when Police are looking for someone they have to overcome that many idiotic stupid hurdles the main one being getting the ok from someone higher up.
Why are criminals young or old being given 110% benefit of doubt when Police & victim get none !
How much more blatant do young offenders need to get before these idiot legal aid & civil libertarians get the gist of what's happening to our society. Only the other day I listened to that moron from the civil libertarian crowd objecting to some sober proposal. It's people like him who should be targeted by some thugs. Perhaps they could bash some sense into him although I somehow doubt that's possible. Some people are just too stupid.
Posted by individual, Friday, 4 January 2013 3:24:01 PM
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Dear o sung wu,

Young people present problems which don't disappear.
As parents, teachers, police officers, we all need
specific skills for dealing effectively (and
humanely) with minute-to-minute happenings - the
small irritations, the daily conflicts, the sudden
crises. All these situations call for helpful and
realistic reactions. Our responses whether we are
parents, or teachers, or police officers have
crucial consequences. They can create a climate of
compliance or defiance, a mood of contentment or
contention, a desire to make amends or take revenge.
Our behaviour affects the yougsters conduct and
character for better or for worse.

These are the facts of emotional life. I know the laws
aren't perfect and there is much room for improvement.
Different laws in different states also make things
difficult. However, authorities at their best display
a common orientation. They try to deal with each
individual situation as it comes up with the skills
that they possess and within the boundaries that the
law allows.
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 4 January 2013 4:03:52 PM
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Lexi - To me if someone is caught (for serious crimes) and whatever happens they do it again there is little or no chance for rehabilitation, I would rather spend billions locking them up than risk someone being hurt.

For theft and lesser crimes whatever they steal they give back plus big fines or lock them up you hear of some offenders 5th or upwards times to have committed the same type of crime again there is little or no chance for rehabilitation, lock them up and make them work.

The only way it will change is if they start to steal of or bash the politicians or do-gooders, but they live in the suburbs with disproportionate numbers of police to poorer suburbs.
Posted by Philip S, Friday, 4 January 2013 4:51:08 PM
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Dear Philip,

I got this from a bit of research on the web:

"Punishment can change behaviour
while they're under lock and key. But if guiding
someone towards responsibility and well being
is the goal as it should be with a juvenile
justice system then other means are needed."

Things like giving them skills useful in the job market,
would help. Discipline of course is important, especially
among violent or anti-social young people but it's no
silver bullet. As someone remarked on the web:
"Viewed simply as an end in itself it treats offenders as
objects rather than people and the problem is that's
how they often already see themselves."

Bashing someone into being good is an outmoded point
of view that today most people would find unacceptable.
As I stated in an earlier post on this forum - my husband
went to Christian Brothers Schools - where daily floggings
were the norm. And a visiting chaplain from Melbourne
Pentridge jail told the class that the largest population
at Pentridge came from Christian Brothers. Bashing
them into "goodness" had the opposite effect.

Here's a few suggestions (again from the web) that may
work:

1) Early intervention with families and in communities
with high crime rates.

2) Programs such as mentoring, involvement in activities
such as volunteering, sport, and community-purposed events.

3) Teaching kids leadership; creating a sense of
connection to their community and helping them succeed
in sport and school can help kids from engaging in
crime-related activities.

In short, success, support, encouragement and above all
activity, keeps kids - occupied, fulfilled and focused,
which reduces the chances of them becoming involved
in crime.

Baden Powell introduced Scouting in the UK after the
Boer War which took off world-wide and probably put many
young lives on the right track.
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 4 January 2013 5:12:19 PM
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Bashing someone into being good is an outmoded point
of view that today most people would find unacceptable.
Lexi,
You can't bash goodness into anyone, period. No-one's even suggesting that. You only get two options when dealing with people who have only contempt & no respect for others. Rehabilitation or punishment.
If the former has no effect then concentrate fully on the latter. You can't somehow make a bad person good. Only academics think that.
Those against punishment never once give any consideration to the victim & therefore are no better than the offender.
I have had my share of theft to the total tune of $100,000 over 40 years and, as you may gather I have run out of tolerance with both offenders & defenders. It caused me to literally having to live a totally different life to what I planned.
Posted by individual, Friday, 4 January 2013 5:56:32 PM
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Dear Individual,

I've stated in my previous post that punishment
can change behaviour while they're under lock
and key but if guiding someone towards responsibility
and well being is the goal as it should be with a
juvenile justice system then other means are needed.

I've listed suggestions for what may work. You obviously
want to stick with punishment. That is your point of view.
Based on your experiences. That is fair enough.

My experiences difer from yours, therefore so does my point
of view.

See you on another thread.
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 4 January 2013 7:21:28 PM
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Good evening to you INDIVIDUAL...

You're right when you say there's much interference of police (trying) to do their job. Next to matters of Domestic Violence, dealing with young persons, are probably amongst the hardest of all jobs you're required to do.

No longer are Kids respectful/frightened/intimidated by either the police, the courts even juvenile detention. I've had jids look me in the eye, as a detective sergeant, and tell me without mincing any words whatsoever, that I can't touch 'em ! Laughing in my face as they do so. In reality, they're often quite right.

The reason is, they're taught (mostly at school) from an early age all their rights. Rights concerning their parents. Rights concerning the police, the Courts...but do you know what INDIVIDUAL, they're NEVER taught their responsibilities to the above group(s).

Our education system is doing them no favours either. Regrettably !
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 4 January 2013 7:39:18 PM
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Good evening to you LEXI...

Whenever you write something, I'm constantly amazed at how well you totally encapsulate the topic, together with sound reasoning and cogent arguement. Are you sure you're not in Chambers somewhere practicing postulatory juriprudence ?

You argue your case so well, I tend to be left bereft of any contradictory reasoning or rationalization. Of course you're right when you assert that every component of society must play it's part. Not only the parents, teachers, police, in fact everybody and anybody who's capable of inculcating trust, together with some positive influence upon the young person - I'd even go as far as saying, even the Church may have a part to play ?

I had this girl who was in a mess - won't even touch on specifics, suffice to say she was in a real mess. It was a mainstream Church group who kind of rescued her ? Their bona fides satified police, so we were happy, and so was she and the Church as it turned out.

So many problems, so few answers, and so many, (apparently) insoluble impediments ?

Yes LEXI and INDIVIDUAL, we've got to do something, and do it soon I'm afraid.

Cheers...Sung Wu.
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 4 January 2013 8:30:11 PM
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Lexi, "Baden Powell introduced Scouting in the UK after the Boer War which took off world-wide and probably put many young lives on the right track"

It is true that boys need outdoor adventure and to take calculated risks to develop. Scouting was always non discriminatory too. A separate program designed by and for girls and young women was available.

What has happened to the Boy Scouts though is that the program has been de-tuned enormously to cater for political correctness and the Nanny State. They are not even allowed to carry a staff, which is of great assistance bushwalking. The small axe and sheath knife are out of the question. Adventure programs must be made suitable for girls, or more to the point, the parents of girls.

Yes I know, girls can do anything but the authorities and parents who demanded girls in the Boy Scouts (but would never countenance boys in the Girl Guides) very quickly decided that what the boys were doing would never do for girls, and girls rule of course.

Not much point in being a Scout is there if you are only allowed to do what the (overwhelmingly) female teachers of State schools (and the mothers, never forget the mothers) will allow in the playground.

This also raises the growth of fatherless families and what effects that might be having on the development of boys (and girls).
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 4 January 2013 8:35:17 PM
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See you on another thread.
Lexi,
not so fast, you say "I've listed suggestions for what may work" Have you any cases where there was such a positive outcome ? Do tell please ! And, you still haven't put forward any suggestions re how to compensate the victims.
Posted by individual, Friday, 4 January 2013 9:14:04 PM
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This also raises the growth of fatherless families and what effects that might be having on the development of boys (and girls).
onthebeach,
what do you mean might have. Look at what we have now ! Totally direction devoid educated who have no clue just like their teachers. Their parents have already infiltrated & successfully saturated the Public Service.
Posted by individual, Friday, 4 January 2013 9:17:57 PM
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Dear Individual,

I don't understand why you're unable to Google
the information that you're asking me to provide
for yourself. There's heaps on the web.

You ask about compensation for the victims. Each of our
states has legal offices that deal with this issue.
Here are merely two websites:

http://www.courts.dotag.wa.gov.au/C/compensation.aspx

And:

http://www.legalaid.vic.gov.au/620.htm

As for examples of successful offender rehabilitation?

Google the topic for yourself - "Offender Rehabilitation,"
There's quite a few examples of success stories on the
web. Or if you aren't able to do that go to your local
library and they'll be able to help you.

Cheers.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 5 January 2013 9:40:31 AM
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Lexi,
with all due respect but if you believe these figures & reports are true then you're really in fairyland. These are highly biased Government/legal reports. The reality is that it's all just nice rhetoric to make the ignorant feel nice whilst those involved have never experienced this make believe justice. As a victim you have no benefit of doubt whatsoever. Why, even the Civil Libertarian won't get involved with victims because they, quote; "only deal with defending offenders". These words came from a woman when I called Civil liberties for advice.
Not even our local Sergeant was able to claim insurance when his private car got smashed up by a young craphead because he resided in an indigenous community.
Also, you must surely be aware of the many schemes people get trapped in yet no Government or legal agency has ever gotten back for victims what they lost. The con men still live in Harbourside mansions.
That my dear Lexi is not mentioned in those links you provided.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 5 January 2013 12:30:32 PM
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Lexi,
what's the aforementioned got to do with punishment for minors ? They turn into those con men & hardened crims because they were never disciplined as minors by our authorities, much easier to blame the parents who, when attempting to discipline the little Johnny Craphead get persecuted by those same authorities.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 5 January 2013 12:35:02 PM
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Dear Individual,

It seems that I have nothing to offer - that's of
any use to you so I shall leave you to it.

Cheers.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 5 January 2013 1:10:13 PM
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>>Why, even the Civil Libertarian won't get involved with victims<<

http://www.nswccl.org.au/issues/victims.php

Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

>>you still haven't put forward any suggestions re how to compensate the victims.<<

It took me 20 seconds to google up that link and another 10 seconds to find this on it:

>>The NSW government also runs a 24-hour support referral and information service for victims of crime. It can provide you with information about emergency accomodation, counselling etc. You can contact the Victims Support Line on:

(02) 9374 3000
1800 633063 (tollfree)<<

Google is our friend. If you live outside NSW why not try timing yourself to see how long it takes you to find similar information relevant to your state or territory?

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Saturday, 5 January 2013 2:48:06 PM
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Tony Lavis,
There are many agencies which advertise services to help the victims, why even the Law itself states it is there to protect the citizen but, have you ever tried to get justice ? You've got Buckley's when you do ! Try & defend yourself & your attacker gets hurt !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 5 January 2013 4:19:33 PM
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'The NSW government also runs a 24-hour support referral and information service for victims of crime. It can provide you with information about emergency accomodation, counselling etc '

Of very little comfort when you know the ones committing crimes get a slap over their wrists and end up laughing in the face of the victims.

Tony has obviously never stood outside or inside a courtroom otherwise he would not write such ignorant comments.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 5 January 2013 4:34:20 PM
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As far as I can tell, runner, you regard the eternal damnation of the everlasting punishment in hell for these criminals and their crimes as insufficient?

What else do you want/propose beyond Romans 12:19?
Posted by WmTrevor, Saturday, 5 January 2013 7:07:02 PM
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WmTrevor,

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7qe7y7EuFLw/TYcRRQ5O5CI/AAAAAAAAAKQ/GhrlD0tKIFs/s1600/net-troll.jpg

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-don-t-feed-the-troll-1.png

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Saturday, 5 January 2013 10:11:12 PM
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'As far as I can tell, runner, you regard the eternal damnation of the everlasting punishment in hell for these criminals and their crimes as insufficient? '

WmTrevor

don't get carried away WmTrevor. This punishment rightly awaits all those who reject Christ's mercy and grace. I suspect many will have stinken attitudes towards God like some crimminals have towards the judges and victims. The only difference is the sarcastic smirk wont be on their faces for long. I pray you and all others repent before your turn comes.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 5 January 2013 10:39:27 PM
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PS

Even when it says things like this:

>>My closet friends are of a different colour and background.<<

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5559#152665

XD

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Saturday, 5 January 2013 11:50:16 PM
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Freudian Slip?
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 6 January 2013 12:09:39 AM
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Tony Lavis,
You'll need to try harder if you desire to come across as intelligent.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 6 January 2013 7:34:13 AM
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runner
Not believing in a deity is not to have a 'stinken' attitude toward God. How can you hold a stinken attitude towards something that does not exist. If someone did indeed 'hate God' then they obviously acknowledge the existence of a God from their point of view.

Do you really believe in a God who would dole out harsh punishment to innocent people whose only 'crime' is a non-belief in their existence even if they have behaved morally all their life? As opposed to an evil person who holds a belief in a deity and gets a free pass. What is the point of religion in your view should wrong-doers such as killers go unpunished even if they have repented at the last minute.
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 10 January 2013 2:24:45 PM
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