http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/no-merriness-here-mosque-puts-fatwa-on-christmas-20121222-2bsk2.html
I and others using this thread, if it gets a start will be told we are appealing to the lowest common denominator.
Even that we are Racist, maybe we are.
I doubt that.
But why the lie?
That deliberate lie, multi cultorism
I nice and warm feeling SOME of us get about many cultures us being one?
And the denial, the mistaken thought, by rejecting those who are separate by their own wish, we reject all other cultures and people.
Migration is not the issue, we are many different nations in one.
And basically better for it.
But this separatism, SOME Muslims wish to impose on us?

GY I must have got you at a good time!
Almost instant post.
Reminds me how much we posters owe you.
We are busy besmirching each other and tend to forget the reason YOU started this site.
May Christmas bring you joy.
And a few donations to support this, your site.
Brothers 4 life.
Read this mornings SMH you can, on line.
Not separatism, but sure a difference , middle eastern stand over gang.
Named and showing, to be behind recent shootings in Sydney.
IF we ignore a seed that hasbeen planted in our country and is growing we ignore our children's future.

Belly,
It is but a taste of things to come.

Blind Charley could have told anyone who was willing to listen that the history of Islam shows that where Islam is in a minority position its advocates will be vocal proponents of “tolerance” , but where it gets the numbers –and that doesn’t necessarily mean a majority – it will cast aside all pretense of tolerance and seek to dictate.

There were –and remain–however, an awful lot of people on the multicultural gravy train who were awfully cocksure that all we had to do was naturalize anyone and they would thereafter magically blossom into pluralists and live happily ever after with us. (Leastways, that is what they wanted us to believe . Though, I can’t help but think that the fact most of these MC advocates were in high paid govt jobs, that depended on MC continuing, might had been a factor too)

Well it didn’t work in Kosovo.
And it didn’t happen in the southern Philippines.
Or, southern Thailand or Burma or Nigeria.
It’s at breaking point in Indonesia.
And any pretense of it broke down a long time ago in Lebanon

Which leaves us with two questions:
1) What are the prospects of the pretense continuing in OZ when the mineral boom ends and it’s thereafter a BYO party?
2) How do we bring to account those spokespersons who sold us (out) on multiculturalism?

Hi Belly, Firstly I wish you and your family a happy holiday season and all the best for the new year. "See you" in 2013 for some move lively debate. LOL.
At the end of 2012 we find ourselves still in a very lucky country, and we all should be thankful for that. I am fortunate enough to have friends from very diverse sections of our community, Muslim, gay, straight, workers, people in politics and other who don't give a rats about same, and many more. One thing all my friends have in common is they are decent people who want a better life for themselves and their families and for some, Australia as well.
We all have perceptions of "other people" and its not until you sit down to dinner or have a drink together or something, and you have a bit of a chat, that although they may speak a different language at home or eat different food etc to you their hopes and aspirations are not all that different to yours.
Even our politicians away from parliament and the media etc are also very ordinary people. I recall once sitting on a park bench with an Australian Senator, after some door knocking on a very hot day, waiting to be picked up. What was the Senator's big issue there and then, not the GFC, not asylum seekers, not the deficit, no the big issue was the pet dog at home and hoping it was alright with the heat. We talked a lot about pets while waiting for a lift. I ran into our Federal Liberal Candidate not long ago, he was out of uniform, no suit, was wearing t-shirt, shorts and sandals could have mistaken him for a Green, ha ha.

Happy Christmas to you too Belly. It's an interesting thread and I find myself on the side of the Imam, Sheikh Safi. While nothing annoys me more than the "Happy Holiday" approach of pretending that Christmas is not a Christian celebration, participating in Christian rituals or behaviours is not something I expect of people who aren't Christian.

The syncretic approach to religion that many in the west, including many Christians, adopt, is actually corrosive of belief and diversity. I don't believe that all religions are equal, and if I did, why be a Christian, or anything else?

I have a great respect for Roman Catholicism, and went to Catholic schools for most of my schooling, but I was brought up strongly Methodist. All through my schooling I refused to participate in any Catholic practices that contradicted my beliefs. I got a lot of teasing and some bullying as a result. I also got a lot of respect.

Talking of respect, I think I would have been disrespectful of Catholicism if I had budged from my position because I would have been saying by my actions that the Catholic religious acts I was carrying out didn't count.

I took the same attitude many years later when my daughters and I attended a Festival of the Lights Buddhist ceremony at Brisbane's Southbank. They wanted to join in. I said that if later in life they decided to become Buddhist then that would be fine. But at that moment they were Christian and we should just watch. I have no animosity towards Buddhism, or I wouldn't have been there. And I could appreciate, and even empathise, with the participants, and certainly respect them, which was why I could not, and would not, join in.

I respect the Imam and his fatwa for similar reasons.

Dear Belly,

A wish for Peace and Happiness this Christmas Season
and throughout the New Year!

As Graham points out - religious leaders are
entitled to their views. Cardinal Pell has his
particular take on so many issues - not all
agree with him either - amongst his own flock.
I remember the days when Catholics were not allowed
to have anything to do with non-Catholics.

Islamic fundamentalism may seem to many Westerners
like a return to medieval morality. In a way it
is difficult for most Westerners to comprehend,
Islam is a comprehensive way of life, continuously
and intensely pervading belief and behaviour,
public conduct and private experience.

The very word "Islam" means "submission" to the will
of Allah, who has revealed the appropriate codes of
conduct in virtually every field of life, from
religious ritual to personal hygiene.

Still, as your link shows - not all Muslims agree with
this religious leader's stance.

The article states that the Grand Mufti of Australia does not accept the comments from the Imam about Christmas , so I think he must be a 'rogue' Muslim. However, in our country he is still entitled to his opinion.

I doubt that any religion can claim they don't have any loose cannons amongst their leaders or believers.

We have been a multicultural country ever since Europeans settled here and took over from Aboriginal Australians as the dominant culture and religion of this country.

That is what Australia is Belly... a diverse country of many different beliefs and cultures.
No religion or culture is any better or worse than any of the others.

If there's a segment of society that doesn't want to celebrate one or more of our traditional holidays then let 'em. So what?

Why it has to be turned into a big deal is instructive of some people looking for conflict where none ought exist. We have quite enough problems with those who don't accept and/or adhere to our mores without seeking to manufacture fake issues.

On the other hand, I wonder what would happen if some second tier Anglican minister came out and said wishing another "happy Ramadan" was a worse sin that killing a soul (whatever that means). I suspect the love media would hyperventilate and the press council/discrimination board would be in overload for months.

This could also be good for the economy. With all these people rejecting the holidays, they'll undoubtedly be available to work on the 25th because it'd a sin to celebrate the infidel's holiday in any way. They wouldn't want to be hypocritical about their strongly held views....would they?

Susie,
Australia is not a multicultural country. We are multi-racial.

We do not make seperate laws for differing cultures. Our society and governance is based on the Westminster system. Our defence forces, police, education, health and local government are similarly based. Our social standards, manners and language all stem from the UK.

We accept certain aspects of other cultures but also many are not tolerated and some are outlawed. Honour killings, forced marriage and bullfighting are some examples. Some foods are also not allowed here.

It is a furphy to think that all various cultures will get along with each other. Some immigrants come here with deep seated hatreds of others and with some strong alien cultural ways, this is handed down from generation to generation. Some have no respect for our society and contempt for our laws.

We should recognize that some people of some cultures simply will not integrate and, in the interests of social harmony, we should exclude these people from coming here. There is nothing to suggest that differing cultures will get on any better in Aus, than they do in other countries.

Thank you to all and the best festive season to each of you.
GY has taken an interesting look at the direction I started the thread heading, and one I bow to, it is true.
However there is room for my views too.
First Let me again put my view, Multi Cultures is not a true description of Muslim Lebanese Migration.
Any about to lambaste all other cultures as the problem, or unwanted need look now further than the GREAT ww2 Migration, at 67 years of age I grew up with those folk.
Yes we had problems, and them with us, out right racism from us to them, was returned by some.
And remember no Asian Aussies?
How could I forget! every road side sign had it written on it.
Our job was to remove it, my boss, not being funny, covered the writing EXACTLY, WITH WHITE PAINT, laugh! WE SURE DID
I will never except Islam as other than an oppressive woman controlling religion.
Crafted to divide not unite.
Forgive me or not I know not all, but too many of them wear the head scarf and the walking letter box style, to show us they are different.
A post script, my recent behavior is still me, not anew thing, I am what I am.
I submit my words against my party its current troubles as evidence I care.
But some true rubbish is being put in to print here.
No need exists to make it up,ample evidence Labor is in trouble can be found without manufacturing it.
Let us hope no one is shot in Sydney over the festive season.

China, look at it from a theist’s perspective, especially the head theist, the Grand Mufti. He can’t have his team going to the other team’s victory party. What he said is ethically correct in Islamic terms.

But your point in posting was to example the divide and hostility that Islam brings to a host nation of imbeciles, such as Australia. Yes they despise us, yes they would subjugate us if they had the numbers and we did not convert to Islam, and they will get the numbers.

Peter Costello’s quote of ''one for mum, one for dad and one for the country'' comes to mind because the mindset of some Muslims is ten for the dole and three for Jihad, and that is a serious comment.

Every second night they shoot up the "south west" of Sydney. Every second night it is an Arab descendant who did it. We have the Plebian Arabs dominating drug dealing, violent crimes and the bloody outlaw bike clubs to top it off. Then we have the Patrician Arabs such as Obeid corrupting parliament and becoming the White Collar Crime Vizier of NSW.

Belly Semites do not play well with others, they are culturally insular and within that culture they are tribally insular. It is a societal trait that does not erode when transplanted. Then you add Islam into the equation and you have a fifth column just waiting to hit critical mass. More cultures have been destroyed by attrition than warfare.

Just to spice it up Belly my china, these Islamists are like your Fabian lot. They have a fifth column in all the first worlds’ governments and academia. Just a thought.

Banjo "Australia is not a multicultural country. We are multi-racial."

No Banjo, we are both multi-cultural and multi-racial, and I think Australia does this better than any other country.

If you say we are only one true culture, then that should be the first culture here - the Australian Aboriginal culture. Surely you cannot discount their culture?
Then add this to the cultures Europeans and other colonial settlers brought with them, and there you have multiculturalism from the very start!

We have learnt from the mistakes of other countries and Australia is a more peaceful place because of this.
If you want to follow the Christian example, then love thy neighbor...

Most post remind me of this story from Sept 17th
Just read it - This is what we are letting into the country and out breeding us. It may take a long time but we will be a minority.

"Girl, 8, calls on Islamic youth to back jihad"
eight-year-old Ruqaya yesterday fronted a congress of Islamic fundamendalists in Sydney to espouse her love for jihad. Addressing a 600-strong crowd at the Australian chapter of Hizb ut-Tahrir in Bankstown in the city's west, the young girl urged all Muslim youth to fight for the restoration of the Islamic caliphate, a single global government for all Muslims established under strict sharia law.

Belly,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-23/muslims-write-merry-christmas-in-sky-above-mosque/4441784

Good old facebook is at it again....nothing like social media to fuel religious intolerance.

Actually, this case reminds of something Jayb posted recently, wherein he received an email from a mate (spawned by social media) that stated that a Muslim-owned shopping centre had stopped Remembrance Day badges from being sold on its premises....Jayb contacted the centre management which told him the story was crap and that badges had been sold from the centre precincts.

Poirot - If the story was a fake the post about the 8 YO is more disturbing and backs up what people have been saying but in a different context. She is one of many we do not need here with there religious intolerance.

Susie,
If we were multicultural we would allow other cultures to practice all aspects of their culture in Aus. We do not.

We only allow those aspects of other cultures that fit within our social standards and comply with our laws. So we are not Multicultural. Even aboriginals cannot ptactice all aspects of their traditional culture. Nor does it seem they want to.

How many cultures can you name that fit in here without adaptation to our society and laws.

Sorry if that does not fit your concept of the ideology of multicutluralism, but that is the reality. MC is a misnomer. The very foundations of our culture stem from the UK. Like it or not, that is the way it is.

Australia has a unique culture and, like all cultures, it does change over time. I am not christion, but see things from a practical viewpoint.

Banjo, can you name all the cultures that can't 'fit in' here without adapting their practices? There are very few.
.
Maybe many of these people leave their country of origin because they don't believe in nasty practices like FGM?

It seems to me that the only culture you don't see as 'fitting in' to Australia is the cultures of the Muslim people? Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are many Muslims who live in Australia peacefully, who are happy to follow the laws and adapt to our way of life. Would you suggest banning a whole culture because of the actions of a few?

A friend of mine loved to put up the Christmas tree, buy his kids things from Santa. Always came to our Christmas party. The thing is my friend was Muslim. As he said, "We live in Australia now and my kids are not going to miss out."
Poirot, nice one.
Susie, there are millions of good people in Australia from all parts of the World. Its what's on the inside not what's on the outside that counts.
I'm a non believer but still enjoy Christmas carols, even the religious ones.
Try this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxm1FlLSfe4

As a jack of all trades master of non I can swear- fluently.
But will refrain.
However lets look under this rug, fore give me, I do no like the Islamic faith.
Who off you does?
Who among you believes in it?
And I foregive me, but maybe admit I am right, I think many followers of that faith dislike me and my country men too.
No assimilation here, just more enclaves more Muslim places of education and religion.
Yes, give it some deep thought, GY has in his reporting reminded us I am no different than those I oppose.
Well I am different, this is my country.
I have no wish to live in theirs.
Stop the rot! no link exists to post ww2 Migration, and the anti integration Islam this thread is about.
Will the true left, a camp I am close to returning to, answer why they ignore female near slavery, in this community.
Why the new but lost, left can not be heard calling for emancipation for women .
The holly Muslim place of worship mentioned is nothing if not a generator of hate in our midst.
Me, left? yes but not lost never knew a left power brokers thief.

Susie,
The point is that if other cultures cannot be part of our society without compromising their culture, we cannot claim to be a multicultural country.

Just because other nationalities live here and can practice those aspects of their culture that we allow, does not mean we are multicultural. Our culture, our society standards and our laws take prominance.

You made the claim that we are multicultural and I say we are not. We are multi-racial without a doubt, but we expect all persons in Aus to abide by our social standards and our laws. No alien custom, tradition, practice or religous pursuit is above our laws.

To avoid the problems Europe and UK are now facing, we should be implementing a selective immigration program that excludes persons from those groups that have shown us they cannot/will not integrate and hold our laws and society in contempt. Irrespective of what religion or nationality they are.

I'm not here to defend the Islamic religion, or any religion for that matter, but Belly I read your post and wonder. You say "I do no like the Islamic faith" I wonder just how much you know about the Islamic faith, most likely very little. Then you say "Who off you does?
Who among you believes in it?" Are you asking that question of the World or just the select few of us who post on this forum. You then proceed to justify your dislike of people by claiming they dislike you, but offer no evidence to support this assertion. Then the bigoted claim "this is my country." unless you are aboriginal. I fail to see how you as a son a immigrants, as are the children of those you dislike, have any more claim than any other section of the community other than those pf Aboriginal blood.
Then this "Will the true left, a camp I am close to returning to," from your post I still see you sitting somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan a long way from the left.
"heard calling for emancipation for women." true progressives in our society have been calling for the emancipation of all who are oppressed in our society, including many of the very people you refer to in your post, you know the ones you dislike.

Banjo we can't be seen to ' implement selective immigration' in Australia.
I'm assuming you would like to 'select' less or none Muslim immigrants?

How do you think that decision will go down with all the Muslim countries?
We live in the world community as well you know. We need to trade with these countries. We can't tar them all with the same feathers Banjo.

Paul we all must not assume, not assume the other side knows or does not,what we do.
Complex issue, let us drift about its edges.
America had mass migration, from all over the world.
While that story written at the Island that processed them is stiring,
'The migration was about building America, it saw the Importation of,crime gangs/Mafia.
Australia, in the Gold rush, in being England's Prison, benefited too.
Post ww2 we entered a boom, on the backs of? Migration.
We prosper still by that rush to populate.
The Asian war and boat arrivals got us heated up.
Who here did not at first fear that?
We imported crime gangs and a cultural separatism too, but we did not think it was all, bad or terminal.
It continues to be a problem but is sidelined by Islam, tell me why?
Religion is my answer.
Why has the western world and us embraced Muslim Migration?
Now this is going to sound silly but is that true?
Is some one say the UN playing experimental games with Social experimental testing, seeing if we can live together even breed the hate out?
Or is it just feeling bad about the poor?
In every country that has taken in Muslim Migrants/refugees trouble exists.
No bending in their religion, no flexing, no assimilation, why then come here.
Who thinks generations will breed the hate out.
In the Lebanese community it is second and third generation Australians you who hate us the most.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/outrage-over-fatwa-forces-mosque-to-pull-down-website-post-20121223-2btkx.html
While I post a positive.
My thoughts remain negative.
I will continue to think of this place, that building, as a divider of my county.

@Poirot & Co

<<Paul 1405 “Poirot, nice one”>>

Yes indeed, Poirot has finished the year just as she has started. Whenever Islam or any of its adherents are in the dock she can be counted on to step-up to the defence-- A first class apologist.

So what does Poirot’s little piece of WHITEWASH establish:
1) “Good old facebook is at it again....nothing like social media to fuel religious intolerance”
It was all Mark Zuckerburg's fault?

And
2) Actually, this case reminds of something Jayb posted recently yada yada yada...
It was another attempt to besmirch the good name of Islam?

Well maybe not. For by Poirot's own account the Jayb incident didn’t occur.

But the Facebook incident DID occur.

And no it wasn’t Facebook/Social Media to blame it was the guy (or gal –but 1000-to-1 it was a guy!) From the Lebanese Muslim collective who placed the holy ruling on Facebook. And I don’t hear anything claims of hacking so he would have had to had been a confidant of the Lebanese Muslim collective. It was tellingly only after there was a rumpus that it was removed –perhaps someone was just testing the waters to see what they could get away with?

______________________________________________________________________

@ Susieonline
<< I'm assuming you would like to 'select' less or none Muslim immigrants?How do you think that decision will go down with all the Muslim countries?>>

Hardly a ripple I’d suggest!

How many LEGAL NON-Muslim immigrants do ANY of the following take in each year Malaysia, Indonesia , Pakistan, Iran , Saudi Arabia, Egypt …

And here’s another curly one for you: Each year between 2-3 million visitors enter Mecca –how many of those are NON-Muslim?

SPQR,

How right you are. I can see from the brilliance of your deconstruction that there's little defence for those of us who don't hold facebook as the pinnacle of social commentary.

My comment (as you noted) said "fuel religious intolerance". That some joker posted an unofficial view on facebook was my point. That blokes of your ilk pick up such comments as representative of the official line is born out by this thread.

Thanks for popping in to put me in my place....reminds me of the last time you tried that, where you totally misrepresented my position by pulling one of comments out and installing completely out of context in your commentary. It was one of the lowest acts I've come across in my posting here.

But don't let me interrupt your paranoia...I'm sure it's uncommonly fulfilling.

SPQR, how many non-Muslim immigrants WANT to emigrate to those Muslim countries?
What rubbish to suggest that Muslim countries wouldn't be upset if we blocked them from coming here.
What about those with family here?
We would encourage more unrest here in Australia amongst those Muslim people who already live here.

What about other countries who do take their share of migrants from these countries? Would you expect them to take more?

How do you think the Muslim countries will continue trading with us if we say we don't like their citizens?
We get most of our petrol from them!

You forget that we have to live in the wider world community and not in isolation in Australia...

The Age article is more revealing:
http://www.theage.com.au/nsw/lakemba-mosque-removes-christmas-fatwa-post-20121223-2btaj.html
For Paul, Suse and Poirot Islam can be a racial issue to be defended with Anti Racist tactics or it can be an issue of religious liberty which can be approached with sickly WASP "tolerance", sometimes it's both at the same time....whatever, it's just crass bourgeois self congratulation and self affirmation, "Look at me, I'm a nice person!".
Defence or tolerance of radical Islam and using anti Racist tactics isn't "progressive" it's reactionary and in the old language "right wing" behaviour because it supports the political elites and maintains the status quo, it also completely contradicts the WASP "Aussie Ethos" of a fair go for all.
Muslims don't believe in equality, they don't regard every soul as equal, Islam is masculine, hierarchical and chauvinistic, it's almost the complete opposite of what it's ignorant WASP defenders believe.
The Anti Racists might want to do some investigation on what it's like to be Shia or Coptic in Western Sydney, look into the intimidation and stand over tactics used by Sunni Lebanese on other religious and ethnic groups, ask some non Lebanese teenagers what it's like to go to school with Muslim kids.
The presence of large numbers of Muslims in White countries has killed "multiculturalism" and Anti Racism stone dead, Islam has always been a roadblock to Christianity and it's universalist, atheist and humanist sub sects, which is fine by me but two bad apples are worse than one, the Muslims should go back to where they belong and take a Suse or a Paul under each arm.

Thanks for that, Jay.

The human condition is such that it's never happier than when bickering erupts amongst all and sundry. Our insecurity fuels our psychology. That's the way it is.

I look at a thread like this and all I see is insularity and insecurity....not the most notable of virtues for advancing humanity and its interests, but oddly comforting for those who feel a threat of dispossession.

Merry Christmas, everyone - hope you can find some comfort one day in concentrating on the commonalities and not the differences.

Poirot,
What is very telling is the way approached the issue. How you pussyfooted around pointing the finger at the organisation behind the Facebook page.

First it was:
1) “Good old facebook is at it again....nothing like social media to fuel religious intolerance

Then it was:

2) “ That some joker posted an unofficial view on facebook “

Get real!

Does EVERY Tom Dick and Ali who is a member of the Lebanese Muslim collective have access/permission to edit the Lebanese Muslim Collective Facebook?
Could I go in and alter your Facebook details ( without hacking) without you authority ?
The person who recorded the fatwa had to have had some level of authority.

And as for
<< ....reminds me of the last time you tried that, where you totally misrepresented my position ...blah blah blah >>
There was NO “misrepresentation”
I had you well and truly pegged : “ formulated…pinned and wriggling on the wall” as it were.

@Susieonline

<<how many non-Muslim immigrants WANT to emigrate to those Muslim countries?>>
Well, for starters, I’d suggest a couple of million south Asian contract workers –who form an under class of serfs –but enjoy few of the privileges and absolutely no prospect of permanent residency!

<<What rubbish to suggest that Muslim countries wouldn't be upset if we blocked them from coming here.>>
I am not necessarily suggesting we put a blanket ban on all Muslims . However, I am suggesting very strongly that OZ as a sovereign nation --and the last time I checked we were still a sovereign nation--has a right to determine its own immigration policy. And I doubt ANY of your "Muslim countries" would dispute that.

<<We would encourage more unrest here in Australia amongst those Muslim people who already live here>>
So let’s see now, if they don’t get their way they will riot and carry placards calling for “All Who Insult The Prophet To Be Behead” ,or even, seek to blow-up Holsworthy army base –NO, we would NOT want to provoke that would we!

<<What about other countries who do take their share of migrants from these countries? Would you expect them to take more>>
Now your dredging up the old furphy that if we don't roll over and do what every outsiders want they want love us anymore.Well, here's some news for you, OZ is one of HANDFUL of countries that accepts immigrants.
(accept here means granting permanent residency to –as opposed to allowing them to stop over awhile on their way to somewhere else)

<<You forget that we have to live in the wider world community and not in isolation in Australia>>
No. What I forgot was how lacking your knowledge of the world in general was.

spqr,

This is what you posted:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=14348&page=0#247742

The reality was that I wasn't in that specific instance commenting on the riot per se. I was commenting on the message that Jayb had received from his mate (as you would have known if you hadn't just been helicoptering around looking for a comment with which to crucify me :)

Here is Jayb's original comment:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5377&page=0#147456

Here is his comment after he contacted centre management - my reply (which you posted out of context in a pathetic attempt to misrepresent my view) is directly underneath:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5377&page=0#147498

So much for wriggling on the wall...if anyone cares to read the links in this post, it will become obvious who was practicing the deception (hint - it wasn't me)

I see you're at the same thing again. I'm not suggesting that facebook pages be interfered with. I'm suggesting that you and your mates, not judge the official line by the rantings of some crank and his mischevous postings on the nebulous forum of facebook.

Perhaps you could give some thought to resisting your irksome compulsion to twist other poster's views to suit your attack -

Pathetic

"the Muslims should go back to where they belong and take a Suse or a Paul under each arm." Jay if you are a white fella I suggest you have no claim to this land and you hold no title maybe a good idea if you jump into a boat and return from whence you or your ancestors came. What is your claim to this land based on?

This complex and strange issue will not go away just because some cannot see the issue as well as others.
I can assure posters the extremes, right or left do not have answers
But too, minority's on both sides in my view, harm the issue not fix it.
ANY BLINDNESS, to both the events and behavior we see from many Muslims, or the clear racism from the other side is not going to change this truth.
More Australians would be happy to STOP Muslim Migration, than not.
A forgotten truth is MUSLIMS, like Christians, want to convert us.
Left, even moderate left, disembowels it self, by trying to love every one deny the very real problems, WORLD WIDE Islamic faith brings with it.
HOW could ANY ONE, who ever believed in Karl Marx or true left, today defend a religion that treats its women , even in its Holly book as sex slaves.
Condemn me, but look too at the other Muslim, sides sins.
SOME privative middle ages like.

@Poirot,
<< I see you're at the same thing again. I'm not suggesting that facebook pages be interfered with. I'm suggesting that you and your mates, not judge the official line by the rantings of some crank and his mischevous postings on the nebulous forum of facebook.>>

You seem to have some crossed wires here. I have no where implied that you suggested that me and/or my “mates” interface with anyone’s Facebook.

My point was rather that if the fatwa appeared on the groups Facebook –as is my understanding – there would not have been open access for “some joker” or “some crank” to list or change anything . Only a confidant would have had authority to list/edit.

Now with regard to your favourite gripe/victim-hood badge. The key issue is that when you had good cause to criticise the antics of persons representing Islam. You chose to hover in the corner and tut-tut about anyone who raised a whimper.

That is the key. The crux. The issue.

Your going on about my supposed misrepresentation is merely an attempt to muddy the water--and make yourself feel all aggrieved.

That said, I wont dwell on it anymore. As I can see you are getting wound up .And I would not be good form to have you fly-off the handle when Santa comes down the chimney and attack his throat.

So it's all the best to you & your family and (a very PC) season greetings!
_____________________________________

@Jayb

Cheers to you too.

My Christmas/New Year wish is that Poirot-2013 might be half as insightful as you have been in 2012.

Belly,
Real Marxists/ Leftists don't defend Islam and they're harshly critical of the massive Third World immigration into the West and the war on Whites being waged by the WASP bourgeoisie, Poirot, Paul and Suse aren't Leftists they're right wingers, they support state capitalism, and subscribe to the same staunchly conservative Christian values espoused by the likes of Abbott and Rudd.

Paul,
I've said repeatedly on this forum that when the U.K and Ireland are ethnically cleansed of non Britons and non Irish I'll be on the first plane over there, agreed, this isn't my country and I'd gladly renounce it in favour of living among my own kind. See an Afghan can go to his part of the world and spend his entire life seeing only his kin, living according to his traditions and speaking only his language, so can Japanese, Chinese, Nigerians and any other group you can think of, except of course Europeans.
So it's Africa, for the Africans, Asia for the Asians but White countries are for EVERYBODY.

SPQR,

Not "wound up"...just setting a misrepresentation straight.

So.....season's greetings to you and yours as well.

Hope it's a good one.

: )

Just gotta put my twopennyworth in here.
If any of us went to a muslim country and publicly announced to others of our own minority religious or non religious persuasion that they should not observe the traditions of the host country, what do you think would be their reaction? Would any of our compatriots openly support us? I suspect there would be violent repercussions against not only myself but all non-muslims.
And our Christian children in their schools. Would they be openly allowed to wish their friends a merry Christmas?
I have no objection to Muslims being in Australian society, but feel they should be Muslim in private, and Australian in public. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
If Muslims genuinely want to be Australian citizens, why decry our beliefs. As I see it, they want to live here, but would rather not be part of our society, just enjoy the benefits they receive from our country.
Bazz and Jay of Melbourne have illustrated good points. We are multi-racial as opposed to multi-cultural. Islam is a masculine society and also to a great extent tribal. They fight at the least provocation amongst the different sects and tribes, and attempt to physically harm anyone who dares to offer any other viewpoint than the one they have. Their defence of their own different branches of their religion never remain peaceful. Recent demonstrations in the Eastern states have shown their proclivity for physical violence at every small opportunity here too. Small wonder Australians are dismayed to have them in our more rational and cerebral society, where dissention does not automatically mean we have to demonstrate this with physical violence.

worldwatcher - please take this constructively not critically. when you post leave a line between paragraphs or when addressing a different person. It will make it much easier than one big mass of text.

Also you are right foreigners get away with doing things we could never do in there country also they get away with doing things that in there country they would be killed or jailed for doing.

Crazy they like what our liberty provides but advocate for there repressed rules & laws etc here.

In this post I will pose two questions.
In truth answering them too.
First the red neck attitude that INSISTS, on including every non Australian born person.
Are the numbers, small in fact, of other than the threads target any more or less than Australians here, or over seas, say shop lifting gangs working in England.
I under stand, even agree, with world watchers claim WE COULD NOT EVEN live in their country as we would here, our deaths would be assured.
OK! tell me our thoughts/fears/ dislike of Muslims in our country and not, IS ONE WAY, THAT THEY LOVE US!
Lie to your self if you must.
I reject it totally, having mixed with many I can tell you we are despised, by second generation criminals
Tell me why even here honor killings and forced marriages take place.
Remind me why female butchers force FGM on innocent young kids.
Italians showed us to eat drink better, to love as they do our family.
Greece Germany the Balkans bought to us the fruits of Multi cultures.
Never threatened ours.
Remind me, in the final years maybe months before Western Civilization is forced to WAR against this RELIGION and its followers what has Islamic migration given the western world.
I will tell you the only thing I can find is about 200.000 more recipients of Social Security.

Belly, Worldwatcher
I've made this point before but I'll make it again, Paul, Poirot, Suse and all the other bourgeois WASP commenters are simply spokespeople for the White Power agenda of their better connected co-ethnics in the state hierarchy.
White Power is the colonial practice used by Anglo Saxons of elevating and distributing priviliege to minority groups over the majority ethnic group and using ethno politics and ethnic tensions to keep the population divided, what's happening to this country isn't colonisation by Muslims or anyone else, it's the top down re-colonisation of our multi- racial society by the same old WASP vested interests which landed here in 1788.
It's very hard to maintain control over a colony which is ethnically homogenous because people start to see their interests as being tied to the nation rather than the state (or corporation). It's also difficult for WASP's to colonise a multi racial society in which the various ethnicities peacefully co exist on their own terms and co-operate with each other, there has to be ethnic tension for White Power to work.
What's more the available evidence strongly suggests that's exactly what this tiny group of Anglo Saxon colonists from Jutland did in the British Isles all those years ago.
Most of us really do want to get along, we can cope with a multi racial society which has it's social codes and protocols hashed out at a grass roots level, it's the WASP elite and their bourgeois supporter base who can't leave us alone, they have to cause trouble, otherwise if we the people start organising ourselves they can no longer rule from above.

Philip S,
Point taken and without offence on my part.
Will be more careful in future.

Personally, I like living in this century far too much to want to slip back into 14th? century type repression.

Also anyone who thinks being a suicide bomber will grant them rivers of wine and vestal virgins in the next life are seriously deluded, don't you think?
Notice that it is mainly young men who do this. Have yet to see an instance reported where one of the leaders who train them for this have ever gone out and practised what they have preached.
Maybe if they had, it would prove to their indoctrinated followers how deeply they themselves embrace this form of human sacrifice.

It is killing for the sheer joy of killing, especially when these bombers often do not have specific targets, but blow up whoever is in the vicinity of their bombs- be it men, women or children, and regardless of those persons' faith - which is often the same one as theirs.
Such mindless violence is truly beyond my comprehension!

Jay of Melbourne,

Think you're being rather harsh here. As I've said before, one only has to see how Singapore has managed multi-racialism - and whites aren't at the top there.

We are in an historic cycle. Throughout history certain countries have been in ascendance, then they decline, and are replaced by other countries.
WASPS haven't always been on top. China was way up at the top at the time Europe was still in the dark ages.Egypt was also a mighty empire at one time. Seems everyone gets to have a stab at being top dog, not just white people.

Anyway, science mandates that we ALL originated from Africa. That being true, we must all have a touch of colour in our ancestry.

Jay of Melbourne.
It gives me great personal joy, and pride to inform you.
I have never agreed with anything you ever said.
And while I may not be welcome there stand with those you target rather than you.
Have Great Christmas, I am in to my third full on day of it.

Jay, very clever jargonistic clap trap with the "bourgeois WASP commenters" and of course "(the) better connected co-ethnics in the state hierarchy." Jay takes us back 200 years with meaningless dribble "it's the top down re-colonisation of our multi- racial society by the same old WASP vested interests which landed here in 1788." Not content with 200 years Jay then hits us with this little bit of folk history "What's more the available evidence strongly suggests that's exactly what this tiny group of Anglo Saxon colonists from Jutland did in the British Isles all those years ago." and who causes all our problems "it's the WASP elite and their bourgeois supporter base" Please hold off on the gibberish and talk a little sense.

SPQR "<<
No. What I forgot was how lacking your knowledge of the world in general was."
Charming.

Maybe you and Jay should consider joining a group of like-minded 'good ol boys' like the Ku Klux Klan? Seems as though you boys have a lot in common.

Anyway, you all be sure and have a lovely white Christmas like they have back in the old country,
Merry Christmas to you all.

Just a thought, 4th day of my festival.
And going strong.
Folks sharing it with me can point to ancestors in most post ww2 Migration country,s [ my faqmilly].
As much as one side ignores our troubles.
And the other includes all migrants.
Our troubles are very real.

After tomorrow I may post links those on the other side, living in this country on our social security, think of us.
Those of us not believing in ANY GOD, may well ask, is the social disruption bought here by these folk worth it?
In this case is our freedoms in balance with their right to practice a religion that judges us in the name of a non existent God.

Belly,

Re-read your 4th sentence in your second post on this thread and refresh your memory.

To all those who have posted comments on this thread:

In an effort to understand various religions I thought reading their literature would improve my understanding. I was struck by how much of the Koran was similar to the Bible, as is the Book of Mormon.

Why would human beings constantly call out "God is great" as they are killing other human beings? This really puzzled me. I know it is used at the start of prayers, but feel it has lost it's original traditional meaning , and is now used indiscriminately.

To me it is more like blasphemy to invoke the name of their God when killing, torturing, or raping both men, women and children. For instance, the pictures of the justice they meted out to Gaddafi [who deserved to face court justice for his own crimes] brought to mind a picture of a pack of wild animals killing one lone animal. This displays devolution, not evolution in humans.

Worldwatcher, all humans of any religious persuasion have a propensity for violence.
Just think about the long history of violence between the Protestants and the Catholics in Northern Ireland.
They shot and bombed each other, including innocent women and children, even though they supposedly worshipped a similar God.

Here's hoping we can at least have a peaceful Christmas Day in the world today.
Have a lovely Christmas Day.

So true Suse.

The difference is the Christians grew out of that form of stupidity.

As in many things they went too far. They started attributing their new kindness to others, & even included muslims.

This was obviously a major mistake, there is no kindness in the Muslim religion, despite worldwatcher's suggestion. He must have looked very hard, & somewhat sideways, to find any.

The 2 greatest killers in the world are religious and political intolerance.

One does not like anyone who opposes there view.

Suseonline and Hasbeen

Suse, you're right. Religion doesn't really enter into the equation regarding violence. It is used as an excuse for violence when convenient, but almost anything seems able to trigger it. "Tis the darker side of our nature isn't it?

Hasbeen,

I may be mistaken, but don't recall ever suggesting that there is kindness in that religion. To the contrary, I abhor the violence and repression which is constantly demonstrated by them.

However, we must not forget there are those who are exceptions - wanting only peace in their lives.
Our G.P. and friend of many years is Muslim. Couldn't wish to meet a kinder or more caring man for whom we have the utmost admiration. He also abhors what is done in the name of his religion. For him, his sole mission in life is to heal his patients regardless of race or religion. His wife - also a doctor, holds the same view, as does his son who is a heart surgeon.

He speaks 5 languages, but is having trouble with the ones spoken by migrants from the African continent. Says he's too busy and too old to take up studying another language, and hopes they will learn ours quickly which would make his life easier when treating them.

I too know some lovely Muslim people Worldwatcher, and I know some awful ones... just like others from other religions, and atheists.

Good and bad humans abound in all areas of the earth!

I am sure they are mainly good humans who contribute to this forum though : )

World watcher, it may be you made a mistake in another thread.
That would be a defense for your actions, not however an excuse.
I have made mistakes, and with drawn them with an apology every time.
I told you we would not mix well, yet it was, out of respect for the site I who welcomed you.
Are you an ex School teacher?
I will not bother you much, I came here as you described your self, barley knowing anything about computers, and have learned a great deal.
I ASK YOU NOT TO LOWER THE STANDARDS BY haunting me here.
After all Sir you not I for what ever reason, in my view wrongly accused our host.
India too has been told, then with drawn not to Celebrate Christmas.
Here I must hold up my hand,my celebration is not other than a reason to drink sing and be merry.
However we need to see faiths are no longer a uniting thing.
And back to specifics, in what way will we benefit from planting some seeds here.

I regret having diverted the thread to respond to a shot.
I however guilty,do not regret supporting OLO and its owner.
Having said that I understand this thread walks on thin ice.
As SOME wish to include all migration in the theme.
And others wish to point to, and use the success of past migration.
We will continue to walk that thin ,sometimes PC driven line.
But in targeting those who like me, see a very real insult to our rights in our country we forget truths.
If given the chance, and asked a simply put question, Australians in majority and increasing numbers, hold thoughts not unlike mine.
The question.
* Is Muslim Migration likely to be a problem For Australia now or in the future?*

Worldwatcher>> Our G.P. and friend of many years is Muslim. He also abhors what is done in the name of his religion.. His wife - also a doctor, holds the same view, as does his son who is a heart surgeon<<

WW, it is not about the “person”…there is no pack mentality when you divide the pack into individuals. It is about critical mass.

I grew up in the inner city when only the poor, the transient, aboriginals and immigrants lived in that five klm radius of those inner city suburbs. By the time the Lebanese Muslim immigration became a stream in the mid 1970’s (I was 20) I had lifelong Lebanese Christian and Turkish Muslim friends….many. I had the feeling then and I have the knowledge now that my friends were as I am, we see no divide except for whatever issue we were arguing about at the time.

We did not see each other as “different” to the extent that we wanted to change the status quo of the existing Australian culture to suit immigrant or resident. The immigrants loved the social freedom that Australia offered, and Aussies adopted culture and customs from a hundred nations. We became tolerant of change because we embraced the “exotic” brought to our shores after suffering with the bland Anglo Saxon culture we inherited from the nation’s founders.

Arab Muslims for the most part see us as different, they see our countries culture as alien, and they see our social customs as an offence to Islam. That is a rift that they cannot overcome…they will always be a society within a host nations society….until they hit critical mass….then they change the laws.

WW, just an observation on your family of lovely Muslim doctors. The educated are no barometer as to the pressure. I can take you to enclaves where six or more kids is near the norm. Where discussion about a Sharia state in Australia is always a current topic of conversation in the book shops and the Mosques.

Belly>> Having said that I understand this thread walks on thin ice.<<

China, don’t take a step back….thin ice indeed.

Who cares what the cause fetishists say or do? Muslim immigration from certain nations brings with it a mandate to work towards changing that nation to Islam. I know and the activists know that if they were forced to live in any of the Muslim enclaves in Sydney they would call for stricter policing and ongoing national security scrutiny, or to stop Muslim immigration from certain nation’s altogether.

I reckon after the first week of shootings in their street they would change their ideology. When they see the contempt that these young Muslim men hold for the authorities and non Muslims (excepting opposing Muslim factions) they may come to realize that not everyone views the worlds as they do. To my amazement these advocates view themselves as alpha creatures, but their cargo views them as prey. I can tell you that Ian Rintoul, the migration lawyer’s best source of income, lives nowhere remotely near where his human cargo resides.

As they say china, common sense aint common anymore.

Perhaps this website may help:

http://amf.net.au/library/uploads/files/Religion_Cultural_Diversity_Resource_Manual.pdf

Lexi, with nothing but respect for you, and those other posters who look for the best.
MY thoughts are considered, much time and research, has been put in to forming my opinions.
Lexi you once spoke of a shared past in Sydney's western suburbs Granville, Parramata,Auburn, Chester Hill.
Consider those places no go zones for you and me now
Part of my youth and my development wasin those areas.
Time and again my job took me back to one of those mentioned.
So I visited them all.
Once friendly welcoming,no longer so.
We Australians,so I am told, by the most bigoted group of Aussie haters, Lebanese Muslims.are foolish.
World wide as can be said about NO OTHER FAITH! talk of out breeding us murdering us is taking place.
In opening its arms the western world has imported a problem that will not go away.
Before WW2 many said Nazi Germany presented no danger.
And that the Japanese could not fight like westerners.
We are living in such times, YES! not all Muslims think like this.
NOT ALL want us to change in our country.
Far too many do.
Answers to my fears,fear and concern shared by many westerners, can come two ways.
ONE from within moderate Islam.
TWO
during a war.
Ignore the deaths of Christians yesterday in Nigeria, if you wish.
But belief in a God THAT NEVER EXISTED is a danger to humanity.
Harsh? bigot? sadly Lexi I speak the truth,next time news footage of Lakema Mosque is shown look in to the eyes of Matronly bigots as they glare at the female reporters.

SOG sorry just read your two well put together posts.
I agree.
My Doc is Muslim.
And a great bloke, millions of them are, you and I under stand that.
A time will come,probably has but we refused to see it, that no room for doubt exists.
This cult like thing,is heading this world for a war.
PS our youth while only part of mine was in a city traveled the same path.

Oh no! Someone was honestly critical of Muslims!
Cure arrogant, flippant apologists and their robotic propaganda.

Suseonline “we can't be seen to ' implement selective immigration' in Australia.
How do you think that decision will go down with all the Muslim countries?”

Who cares how we are “seen”.
This *our* present and future society.
We shouldn't have to include any foreign people whatsoever, unless *we* want them.
It doesn't matter what *they* want.

And being “multicultural”? No.
We have a core culture than can and does incorporate elements from elsewhere when *we* want to (e.g. surfing, pizza).

“How do you think the Muslim countries will continue trading with us if we say we don't like their citizens? We get most of our petrol from them!”

Think they'll stop selling their one trick pony? It's all they've got!
And “Muslims” don't sell us petrol, commercial companies who want to make money do.

“we have to live in the wider world community and not in isolation in Australia.”

The wider world does not have to be duplicated *within* Australia.
Should it also be duplicated in Tibet? Oh no, Tibet's for Tibetans only!

worldwatcher “science mandates that we ALL originated from Africa. That being true, we must all have a touch of colour in our ancestry.”

Well, that's one theory. Nobody really knows for certain. And it's *irrelevant*!

We have “evolved” since then, not only into variant physical forms, but more emphatically different *cultural families*.

Today's immigration is not the same as the Greeks/Italians/Yugoslavians of yesteryear.
They are *related* to us, sharing a fundamental foundation, only differing in the surface, the details.

This is not comparable with the unrelated ethnicities of Asia, the Middle East, Africa and Oceania, which now account for 3 out of 4 new migrants.
This is “stealth genocide” and it is INDEFENSIBLE!

Shockadelic,

The touch of colour remark was meant as a funny. Even serious subjects need a touch of humour now and then.

Shockadelic, Australia has weathered many new groups of immigrants over the past centuries.
Many people ranted and raved about the Italians and other displaced European people arriving after the world wars, who were apparently going to destroy our English way of life.

Then they were aghast about the Vietnamese 'boat people' coming to bring communism to our shores
Successive wars and conflicts have brought us many other different immigrant cultures, and the sky still hasn't fallen in.

I honestly don't believe this current wave of Muslim immigrants will be any different.
Our children and grandchildren will be discussing the current paranoia about these immigrants sometime in the future, no doubt...

I had quite purposely kept out of this thread especially pre-Christmas as who needs the aggravation during the festive season. Anyway it was the same old knocked kneed types doing their spiel, peddling the same crap they have for the last year.

So let them be I thought, even they deserve a break from me over Christmas, but out it comes, the perennial linking Muslims to Nazis. I'm afraid no more sitting in the stands.

Well if the Nazi card is to be played lets see what we can do with it.

Do you want to know what the Nazis were about Belly, they were about vilifying and demonising the race and religion of a certain part of their citizenry. They then rounded them up, poisoned them and burnt their corpses in ovens.

The Nazis were Christians, and many other Christian countries in Europe colluded in the slaughter.

Very few people spoke up against what was happening, I hope that is never said of me. The Nazis were actually quite surprised with what they got away with in the early part of their campaign to persecute the Jewish people.

Why shouldn't we consider you an active precursor to similar horrors Belly? Are you going to dress up in a uniform with a few other thugs, smash some windows of Muslim businesses and paint crescents on their shop fronts?

Are you a Nazi Belly?

See I can play this game too till the cows come home.

Now how about parking the Nazi references, the scaremongering, the beating of drums and the rest of the rubbish. You have every right to express concerns about criminal activity, even about the difficulties some migrants have with adapting to Australia but to blow this out of proportion and to instigate and stoke a thread like this does you no credit.

csteele,

It's amazing how many threads on OLO can accommodate this garbage...they're wall to wall most of the time.

Anyway, thanks for your input (and yours too Suze).

Makes a pleasant change from the fear-induced xenophobic rantings that abound around here.

Thanks Poirot.
Csteele, I love your post.
I am glad there are some voices of reason amongst the angst...

Still coming unreported by main stream media last 2 days 3 more boats with excess of 200 people.

Good one Julia why don't you just send the navy to the middle east to bring them here.

Csteele I do, I just LOVE opposing you.
Your history shows some pure bigotry, in defense of Muslims and Lebanese ones in particular.
You droned on about drones killing while not seeing western troops killed.
You defended in strong terms and as rude as anything I EVER put in print, a lie telling woman convert who tried to have a polices man job.
No Nazi, no coward, a true ALP voters who speaks for middle and most Australians.
AK47 is a weapon so too are the words of damp squibs like you, afraid to admit your true colors.
Saw my guests off 3am, long trips ahead, watch the news.
Muslim murdering Muslim.
Do not discard the link to our beginnings, we all came from Africa.
And today, to the best of my understanding , ONLY FOLLOWERS OF ONE GOD KILL EVEN THEIR OWN IN HIS NEVER EXISTED NAME.

Notice? are we men aware in the eyes of the girls our MAINSTREAM VIEWS are racist?
That no one of them has stepped up in thread after thread to DEMAND an end to FGM in this country?
Oh yes it takes place, but those young women, little girls, are collateral damage, not victims.
The signs saying we, and our lady friends, csteele to, no friend, are going to hell.
Stand and be men!
If you are upset by my words craft a post telling me.
But do not cringe in the corner like Mice.
Because the mother love instinct has blinded SOME.
This very day, some where in AUSTRALIA, young women barely in their teens, are being told of a trip HOME.
Maybe not knowing it is to a forced wedding, with a much older man, who will pay her parents, for her sex parts, to beused under SHARIA LAW as a toy.
Rather be a bigot than lie.
White feathers in ww1 and two, now we are defamed for?
Being honest, saying what our country men and women, the massive majority of them, think.

Belly,

I do believe somewhere in the annals of OLO are my words "FGM is barbaric"...however, I suffixed that point with my observation that snipping little bits of baby boys was, in principle, a similarly questionable exercise.

For that , I was flayed alive by Loudmouth who referred to the practice of the latter as merely removing excess flaps of skin (as if evolution provided us with excess flaps of anything in the skin department).

I wonder if our anglo origins and our subsequent geographical circumstance helps shape this nation's psychology, coz majority group-think in this country is about as insular as it comes in a world of shifting populations...it's always been a world as such - nothing new there.

Nor is there anything new about folks lining up, one behind the other, to spew their anti "whoever-isn't-like-us" rhetoric ad nauseam.

Dear Belly,

I grew up in the Western suburbs of Sydney (Parramatta).
And admittedly I haven't been back there for quite a few
years fo I can't comment on the changes that you speak of.

As far as Muslims in Australia are concerned however,
I don't believe that we can tar them all with the same
brush simply because they are so very diverse. They come
from different regions for a start - Indonesia, India,
China, Russia, and many black African countries. And of course
there's the Middle East. I believe that Muslims in
Australia make up only 2% of the population.

We tend to forget that the picture that is presented in the
media of Muslims usually deals with a minority within the
Muslim group - the fundamentalists (extremists). They are a
minority and do not represent the mainstream Muslim
community. Also to many people - Muslims conjure forth
images of women behind veils, of adulterers being stoned,
of thieves having their hands cut off, of public floggings and
executions, of martyrdom in holy wars, and in extreme cases,
of political fanaticism exemplified in aircraft hijackings
and terrorist bombings.

This picture is rather distorted, for it is based on what is
newsworthy rather than what is typical in this country.
We have so many Muslims that are peaceful and are a part of
the mainstream of our communities - who have contributed
so much to this country. We should not blame all of them for
the actions of a few within their group.

Read the previous link that I gave - and I'm sure that
you will see that your fears are groundless.

Belly I think it goes without saying that all women on this site would abhor FGM.

As it happens though , FGM is more of a cultural practice than a Muslim practice.
It is against the law in Australia so I can't see what more you want us to do about it other than also campaign for that other barbaric practice of circumcision of boys?

As a member of The Greens I have a number of Muslim friends within the party and I also have Muslim friends outside the party, as well as Muslim neighbors. We Greens spend time engaging with members of various migrant communities, many of which are Muslim. I have even met a couple of Anglo women who have converted to Islam and married Muslim men, I see nothing wrong with that as my own grandmother converted from C of E to Catholicisms to marry.
There must be something wrong with the Muslims I known or meet, none want war, none are intolerant of others. One of my Muslim friends was shocked just recently when he asked me how long since I had been in a Church, there is a Muslim thinking I should go to the Christian church. The issues Muslim's bring up are also strange for our society, jobs, housing, education, health, transport etc. They all came to Australia for the oddest of reasons, many came for the absurd reason of wanting a better life for their family.
I am not saying all is a bed of roses in the Muslim community in Australia, far from it, there are lots of problems and they are well documented. However give credit to the many within that very same community who are working hard to help overcome those problems.
Something to ponder: When Phillip arrived in Australia Aboriginals were 100% of the population and 0% of the prison population. today Aboriginals are 2.5% of the population and 28% of the prison population. Bad people them Aboriginals! Lucky for them Phillip arrived in time to bring them the virtues of christian salvation. Do you think we can do that for the Muslims as well.

http://freethoughtnation.com/contributing-writers/63-acharya-s/730-canadian-muslim-professor-to-government-no-more-muslim-immigration.html
My link is to another Nazi hater, like me.
No hardly, read it see its author is a Muslim, know his intellect is unchallenged.
But for some, he is a racist.
Lady,s do me this favor, know I respect each and every one of you.
Not because you are female but because each of you, time and again have earned that respect, here in OLO.
BUT that line, the one inferring we men are prone to ganging up on your under dogs the Muslims in this case.
We through out history have been the ones standing between women and such as the worst of these, UNWELCOME DIVISIVE parts of the Muslim community.
Granville Lexi, in a house a friend once lived in, see the news, petrol bombs bust in and this time, no one was killed, save your self, NEVER WALK THOSE STREETS ALONE.
Paul, mate I forgive your past niggling taunts, I can afford to.
See I vote Labor.
Your team has stepped back from a little, of its purely mad policy's.
And mate, so deeply pained am I about the current state of my party, I thought, briefly, of returning to my childhood left.
You reminded me, in your post, true left no longer exists.
A leach like wish to attach its self to ANY CAUSE has failed it.
Look mate at the victims of Islam.
Look too at the very simple truth.
NO GOD EXISTS.
Yet we let one tell us we should change.
I MUST no alternative exists, work on reforming Australia,s only reformist party, ALP, FIRST?ALP, LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE.

Susie,
You know as well as me there is a vast difference between boys circumcission and FGM. What you are saying is a cop out, Piorot as well. What women could be doing is lobbying our politicians for the laws regarding FGM to be enforced. Only now is there to be some prosecutions, in the next 2 months, relating to FGM. Previous state governments turned a blind eye because of 'cultural considerations'. Can you believe it, little girls are getting organs and flesh cut off amd governments are concerned about 'culture'. FGM affects women for their entire lives, not just the pain of having it done but later sexual problems, urinary tract infections and birthing problems.

So western women, and men, could lobby for law enforcement about FGM.

Belly,
While predominately a cultural practice by muslims, it is not exclusively so. Some other non muslims also practice FGM and with the more recent influx of African refugees, some FGM victims may well be non muslim.

Susie,
I would not put a blanket ban on muslims, but the groups I would exclude from immigration are predominately muslim.

Firstly the Croats and Serbs, because of hatred and fighting each other for 3 generations here. Next those groups that practice FGM, no Aussie girl should suffer that. Then Leb muslims because of their contempt for our laws and anti social conduct. All Sri Lankans because of fighting each other on apparent ethnic grounds. Then some African groups because of anti social conduct. That would do for starters, as i think it is the continued new influx of these groups that refresh their alien cultural ways.

I would keep a close eye on others and exclude more groups as necessary for community cohesion. No point in making a bigger problem than what we presently have.

Dear Banjo,

I notice that in all your exclusions you haven't made any mention
of groups of British and Celtic backgrounds who are also
trouble-makers. Is that because your notion of nationhood is
seen as incompatible with diversity? It seems that you regard
minority cultures as alien and a threat to social cohesion.

These sort of attitudes were common at the end of the
nineteenth century. They're no longer
acceptable to most people one hundred years later.

As another poster stated earlier - there are good and bad
people among each and every group - why only exclude
certain ones and not others.

Lexi,
Point out the problem immigrants that i have missed and if they are problems I will add them to the list.

I want a far lower immigration rate and it makles sense to exclude the troublemakers first. Don't care who or what they are.

Let me see the groups you talk about and their history here.

Their are some Asian groups that continue to hold cockfights, could exclude them. I also think there are groups that practice forced marriages, but it is kept quiet and there are no stats available, I wouldn't mind excluding them.

Lexi,
Maybe you are thinking of the 'Barmy Army' that come when the Poms are playing cricket. They are harmless and as tourist already have return tickets, we are tolerant and can put up with them for a couple of months.

Funny thing, there are more Buddists here than muslims but they never seem to cause trouble, and we do not get trouble from Non muslim lebanese.

Maybe we could limit the number of Kiwis that now come here at will.

I from my first post have made the claim no Migration bar followers of Islam, have hurt this country as much as they have.
And know some will think differently.
They weaken the case against Muslim Migration.
Let us not forget, or hide the words of the Koran, or the great differences in its followers world wide.
IF America let its sub teen age girls be forced to wed older men, hear the left scream.
So lost from majority opinion are they, I see support here for anti female practices.
Tell me why the worst followers of this creed are also the lessor educated.
Ignore the building hate, within our country, for us and our way of life.
Ignore the signs at the protests world wide, the toy machine guns in the hands of children.
HATE for us, and yet we are asked to? ignore that?
A day comes west will fight east, no Muslim vs Muslim.
If we lost? those supporting Islaam would over night be no longer able to have opinions or be free.
Stop Muslim Migration unless those from within this middle ages cult like creed. undertake to let its followers be free from ranting teachers in almost every Mosque

Dear Banjo,

I'm married to a bloke who came from Europe at the
age of nine. He went to private schools, finished
university, and worked professionally in the
Australian corporate world - ending up with his own
business. Over the years he has learned that to get
on in life and business was to avoid the Anglo-Irish
in this country who have caused him tremendous
difficulty and stress. He did not find difficulty
working with immigrants from Europe, Asia, and elsewhere
most of whom were hard workers and contributed to my husband's
success.

Today, he avoids where possible any dealings with the
Anglo-Irish. Many immigrants that he's associated with
apparently have had similar experiences. He tells me that he
has nothing against them 'per say' - it's their attitudes
that are the problem. I try to politely tell him that
perhaps his own attitude needs improvement as well.

The point that I'm trying to make is that none of us
are perfect - and we should look at ourselves and
our own attitudes - instead of stereotyping others.
We have to allow for individual differences in
people. Not all Serbs and Croats fight and cause problems.
The same goes for Lebanese Muslims and others that you
mentioned.

If we start excluding people - where will it stop?
You might want to do a bit of research into the history
of this country and realise that troubled times existed
way back to colonisation - and yet we've survived and
grown as a nation. I love this sunburnt country - and I
am proud of the tolerance most of us show to others.
I have the distinct feeling that you have a big heart -
and you could possibly be simply yanking my chain.

Lexi,
I was having a bit of a jibe at you about the Barmy Army and what about the group known as the Morris Dancers, they have caused us no end of trouble.

But seriously, Many of the groups I mentioned are Aussies, some 2-3 generations now and their conduct is unacceptable. We cannot deport Aus citizens so we are stuck with them. Best we can do is no import others of the same culture. These groups have shown us that they cannot/will not intergrate and that they hold their culture much higher than our laws and social standards.

There is nothing else we can do. You will notice also that most immigrant groups are NOT on the list, which means that they do compromise and adjust their cultural habits to comply with our society. You will also note that our society accepts a very wide range of diverse groups. But if we continue to accept, say the fighting of the Croats and Serbs or the anti social conduct of the Lebs we are compromising our own culture. A blind eye to FGM will result in it being acceptable.

The best we can do is have a selective immigration policy that excludes those that have shown us they have contempt for our society.
I have often wondered why muslims would want to come to Aus which has a completely different culture to them. The conclusion is that the muslims that come here see themselves as pioneers for Islam. As they build up numbers they will exert more influence and instigate change to suit them.

Dear Banjo,

Thank You for such a civil response.

I am pleased that you recognise the fact that
minority communities are a core part of our
national identity. I feel that there should be
restrictions and parameters set for who's a
suitable immigrant to this country - but the
restrictions should deal with things like a person's
criminal record, and other appropriate criteria, not
simply because they happen to belong to a certain national
group.

The expressed hostility towards "Lebs" as recent intruders
and trouble-makers belies the history of Australia, where
people of Lebanese ancestry have lived for more than a
century.

What worries me is that prejudice does create what it fears.
It curtails young people's prospects. Young Arab-Australians
are increasingly ghetoized in Sydney's poor suburbs where
they struggle for an education and jobs. Their families are
often also prejudiced against non-Arab Australians. And
therein lies the problem. The prejudice of the minority and
that of the broader society re-inforce each other.

We need more education and less fear mongering.

I don't believe that the majority of people who fled their
countries come here to "take over." I feel that they come
here for a better life - and they want to escape the life-style
that they fled from in the first place. Most are only too
happy to fit in and cause no problems. It's only a small
minority that presents a challenge. And trouble-makers exist
in all groups.

Lexi writes

'We need more education and less fear mongering. '

We do need more education for Islamic apologist. They need to stop being in denial about crime rates, world views and history. Ask people living in the UK how well Moslems integrate and obey laws once they establish strongholds. The more education you get on the islamic faith the more fearful women especially should be.

Facing thee truth is not fear mongering. Ask some of the girls and want to dress western style whether it is feqar mongering to complain of harassment and jeering. It puzzles me how feminist are so willing to defend the indefensible.

Dear Belly,

Don't you dare try and make the case you are talking for most Australians. At a football game earlier in the year some drunken fool tried to sling some racist taunts at a young indigenous player and he was quickly shouted down by the rest of the crowd, something that would not have happened thirty years ago. My country has evolved from that kind of acceptance of racism and most of us are not going to take that kind of crap any more.

Many may well have concerns about immigration, even specifically from middle-eastern countries but I don't think there would be one in a hundred who would equate Muslim immigration to the threat of Nazism or a Japanese invasion. You did. In doing so you have marked yourself as a scaremongering, bigoted racist.

You wrote about me; “as rude as anything I EVER put in print”. Mate I'm just telling it like it is. Should I have treated you like the female members of the forum have, politely and politically correctly? Yeah right. You rail against the very notion of PC so don't sook up when you get some straight talking back at yourself.

There are many issues I respect your position on but this is your weakness, born of fear and fed by blinkered ignorance. It can only serve to lessen you as a person.

Thankfully I believe my country is bigger than the poison you and your cohort wants to spread.

As to your Canadian Muslim don't try and pass him off as anything other than a self serving right winger. He stood as a candidate for a far right party, wants social services stripped and less taxes imposed, and doesn't want a bar of global warming. His anti-immigration speech was speaking to his constituency and that obviously includes you.

We have enough of that rubbish here without you trying to import more.

While I truly admire the more restrained contributors here I'm past giving civil responses. Keep serving this rot up and you are getting it back in spades.

runner,

"We do need more education for Islamic apologist..."

It appears that you need more education in Christian ethics.

I hasten to add that the likes of Lexi displays in every one of her average posts far more Christian charity and humility than I've noted in the entirety of your posting history - at least since I've been participating on this forum.

You would do well to study her attitude.

Belly one of your own, born 25th October 1943 in the village of Matrite in Northern Lebanon migrated to Australia 1950. Awarded the OAM. Who is it Edward Moses Obeid. Based on your criteria would rate him an outstanding immigrant, not a Lebanese Muslim, but a Maronite Catholic and a member of the ALP.
What about John Ibrahim and his family they would pass your criteria for 'good' migrants. Keep out those Muslims and let in the good guys. What about Ivan Milat he would pass your immigration test as would Martin Bryant, now there is a dinky di Aussie, pass the immigration test with flying colours blond hair, blue eyes, even Banjo and Runner would let that Aryan in.
Belly if you were to move to the left at the speed of light, there is a good chance you would pass Genghis Khan sometime in the next million years.

Belly,

Just wanted to add to Paul's points...

I just watched the local news with my son. This fellow, Akram Azimi was a refugee from Afghanistan, so I googled:

http://www.australianoftheyear.org.au/honour-roll/?view=fullView&recipientID=1011

What a wonderful Australian.

Poirot

'It appears that you need more education in Christian ethics. '
Telling the truth is one such ethic. Islam aplogist consistently fail to do so. Its good to know that you acknowledge their is a moral base to measure things by. Quite interesting considering you claim not to believe the claims of Christ. Maybe you should educate yourself where the basis of truth comes from before being so judgemental.

"For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me..."

Pretty basic stuff, runner...common humanity it's called. And Christ's radical message was that you shall love your neighbour as yourself, not demonise them because they hail from a different culture.

I don't know what particular brand is your Christianity, runner, but I find little that's Christlike in your commentary.

I have noted, and expected the heat aimed at me.
Again note and expected the BLANKET yes the efforts to bring other races, even our own first Australians in to this debate.
Clearly, honestly, all Nations have racists, this thread highlights an other form of it.
Racism based on a phantom never existed God.
We would have Zero trouble saying the Gods pre the 3 that came from the middle east, Jewish Christian, then came Islam, never existed.
But not as I have this one, or in fact as I think all three.
Csteele, like my self, defends a team, tells me he is a man but one the females love, stands out.
I see a warrior for Muslims, in his thread history, no independent commentator.
Ignoring my words, some brand me as one who says all Muslims are a danger, others implore by inference, me to love all.
How free is speech? if by just sharing my views, the views of more Australians than not, I am all the ugly things I am charged with.
Look at the head lines in this mornings papers.
Any mornings papers.
Force your self to re value your opinions, even strengthen them.

By seeing what many in Europe are saying, on both sides of this debate.
But remember my opponents, do not sweep it under the blanket on the floor.
We are here.
*Because a Muslim man/ranter in my country, said Celebrating Christmas is a sin for Muslims*
Tell me no more lies about peace and harmony with this cult.

To the crazy, loony, ratbags, fools, idiots and nincompoops Poirot, Lexi Csteele and Suseonline and I humbly include myself. I am heartened by your comments here in defense of people who in general have no voice.
Please do not feel insulted by my description of you as history is full of crazy, loony fools who at one time or another espoused "unacceptable" ideas Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr to name a few, how WRONG they were!

A link to one of my all time favorites:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXRmJyIyJb

Sorry try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXRmJyIyJbM

"I see a warrior for Muslims, in his thread history..."

What you see, Belly, is a defender of fairness and tolerance.

It's easy to indulge in sweeping prejudice, especially in concert with others, but it requires a modicum of intestinal fortitude to speak out against it. That the women contributing here support the stance taken by csteele is something you seem to think is linked to some gender flaw.
I put it to you that intolerance and prejudice of the like regularly bandied about on this forum, when acted out on the world stage, are usually the incendiary precursors to unrest and animosities - no wonder the intelligent women here reject that stance.

You criticise divisive ranting. I reject ranting also...tell me how your rhetoric differs from that which you deplore?

Dear Paul1405,

While appreciating the sentiment I think the notion that the views expressed by us are exceptional is fraught. It allows those with deeply variant positions to attempt to claim the middle ground or speak for 'middle Australia'. They do not, nor in my experience are they in any way representative of them.

Instead what we have is a group who through the anonymity of the web are able to express views that normally would invite censure in most Australian settings.

As I said earlier I have no problem with the issue of immigration being raised including the suitability of certain groups to settlement in Australia in large numbers. To expect our older citizens to be as comfortable with non-Eurpoean migration as we are is not respecting their upbringing nor their experiences especially of the War.

The fear of invasion and its imagined horrors were part of every day life and would have left an indelible impression. Not to have the conversation would be doing them a disservice.

However there will always be those who instead want to incite hatred, to demonise, and to slander. Thankfully in our country they are not the normal, we are, and I think anyone who is respectful of what we have become as a tolerant nation would want to protect it. That in essence is what this is about.

Dear Poirot,

Thank you but I do recognise I am becoming an unfair and intolerant defender of fairness and tolerance. Others here including yourself are able to deliver far more measured responses than I find myself capable of on this issue, the type of which are much more likely to shift perceptions and thus far more valuable in the scheme of things.

Poirot

'"For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me..."

The point is we have welcomed many Moslems in only to find that they poop on those showing them kindness. Many that don't follow Mohammed are actually very nice people. One day you will see past your dogma and see that Islam is the problem not the people.

People are people and all are sinners but paticular dogmas like secularism lead to murdering unborn babies while following the Koran leads to total oppression. One day you might get it but I doubt you want your glasses removed.

On the contrary, csteele.

Your responses are more robust, and your argument is well-defined. It's becoming increasingly rare on OLO to witness a vigorous rebuttal of (in my opinion) odious rhetoric.

I take my hat off to you.

Philip S.,

Loved acting when I was a child. Learned quite long passages by heart, and was taught the appropriate gestures and tonal inflection to use.

Have to believe the 8 year old was put through the same process.

Belly and I are often at odds regarding politics but on this issue I would not be at all surprized if what belly says comes to pass. All muslims excluded from immigrating here. I do not think it has reached that stage YET, but could come sooner that we think, even war between the west and most muslim countries.

This is not fear mongering or prejudice, but an awareness of what is happening both here and in other countries.

There has been over 20,000 documented terrorist attacks since 9-11-2001, all by muslims, and when you look at what is happening in Europe and the UK,it does not look good for the future. Western governments are still following the appeasment line.

Closer to here, Islamic terrorists operate in the Phillipines and Asia. As recently as 1965 muslims killed up to 3 million people in Indonesia. Their hate for infidels was made fairly plain here last September. The call for beheadings is hardly peace loving.

It seems that those argueing against bellys opinion are not aware of world happenings or simply choose to ignor it.

A former president of Nigeria predicted muslim conquest of Europe, by Muslim sons. He said the wombs of our women will give us victory.

http://www.islamdaily.org/en/islam/5855.why-the-muslim-and-western-cultures-will-continue-.htm
This link is worth thought.
No right wing Fascist wrote this,a learned Muslim did.
SOME of the faults found with the western world, can not be denied, they exist, freedom lets folks do such things.
My wobbling, as described in other threads and here, to join Labors very left, or even other left.
Has gone, FOREVER, look at the just plain silly leftist posts.
So remote from truly caring, about the victims of Islam.
Poor Paul, not a bad bloke, but maybe driven by other than the total lack of understanding shown in his posts here.
Muslim Migrating to the west, Mostly do not work, mostly even third generations live on Social Security.
UNSUSTAINABLE! true Socialists know, that form of income is under threat,at times rightly so.
As greedy approach numbers of the true needy.
And whole country,s suffer because of over generous payment to the wrong people.
This is true, Abbott.s replacement will cut ALL WELFARE, needy will suffer.
IF having read the link, from the other side, you will see in many cases both sides agree, it is difficult if not imposable for us to liv together.
Multi Cultures or is the aim Multi racial in my country?

SonofGloin,

I agree with you that critical mass is the crux of the argument.

I honestly cannot see how they can integrate with what they regard as a society with no morals. The fact that we drink, smoke, do not dress [in their minds] modestly, and treat our women as [almost?] equals is an affront against all the aspects of their religion, and a mindset they will retain. How then can we ever expect them to integrate? Are we Westerners wrong to expect that of them? We hold that we aren't, and they hold that we are. Dissenting views = conflict, with both sides claiming the high ground.

Another cause of conflict is the language barrier, which inadvertently can lead to misunderstanding on both sides. An example of this is humourous, but serves to illustrate the point.
We lived in Spain for a while. In an attempt to integrate we studied hard to learn Spanish. My partner had a small problem when ordering breakfast, and constantly would order jamon [ham] and jueves [thursday] because the word sounded like huevos [eggs].

Have read quite a few research papers regarding world population, and many of them predict the inevibility that Muslims will account for at least 45% of the total world population by 2030.

These are only projections, and we know that these aren't always
proven correct. But how can either side present their argument without the use of a common language?

Dear Belly,

You are at it again.

You wrote of your link; “No right wing Fascist wrote this,a learned Muslim did.”

Did you even read it? Here is a quote from it.

Start..

D’Souza blames all of the differences and the basis of the Muslim hatred of American culture totally on America’s cultural left wing. In a quote from his book, D’Souza says: “I intend to show that the left has actively fostered the intense hatred of America that has led to numerous attacks such as 9/11. If I am right, then no war against terrorism can be effectively fought using the left-wing premises that are now accepted doctrine among mainstream liberals and Democrats.”

..End

Yup sounds like the last thing a right wing fascist would ever say.

A Democrat President is pursuing drone signature strikes, indefinate detention, and torture and these are suppose to be left-wing premises? Where do you think he would be on the political spectrum then Belly?

How about you ditch the overseas links for a bit?

And did I hear you mutter something about free speech a couple of post ago? So you think me replying to your offerings somehow curtails your free speech? What you really mean is that you want your speech free from rebuttals such as mine. Well not in My Country thankfully. No one is denying you the right to express your opinion, just don't sook up when I exercise my right of reply.

This is my problem. You started this thread with a link to a story about a directive against wishing others a merry Christmas. When the Muslim community and its leaders responded to the issue by firmly stating this was not coming from the wider Muslim community and by sky writing a Christmas salutation above the Lukemba Mosque you gave them no credit but instead ratcheted up the rhetoric. Here was a great example of them reacting in a positive way to accommodate an Australian tradition yet you have not let up.

As to the idiotic claim that those normal Australians who don't think like you do ultimately do not care about the victims of female genital mutilation, just think about it for a second. I would say that a family who has migrated from an area where this odious procedure is rife is quickly disavowed of the practice once they are in Australia. While in some families it may survive a generation it is unlikely to continue into the second. If one had the ability to compare the rates of FGM in a thousand families who remained in these areas compared to a thousand second generation families of migrants who are living in Australia it is a no-brainer that the rates would be vastly different.

So if you were truly concerned about FGM of young girls then you would be championing their migration to Australia where they will be afforded far more protection by our laws, our culture, our health system, our schools and our society in general.

But you will not do so because you and others are far more interested in demonising Muslims immigrants by tarring them with the same FGM brush than caring about what happens to these young girls.

You might feel it's a little unfair that I am seemingly picking on you and not others on the thread, some of whom are probably worse on this issue, and you would be within your rights to do so. But it is your thread and you have fanned it. With ownership comes responsibilities my friend.

What's next?

csteele gday bloke! you remember donnt you? I do not believe a word you say.
As we get in to personal abuse, I do try not to, lets look at something.
OPINIONS, THOUGHTS, IDEAS, how do we come by them?
How do we judge our own?
And how do we value/judge others.
Do we give more value to ours, if you answer is not some times take a look at your self.
I SOMETIMES see a post, almost daily, that puts me back on track, so well thought out it overshadows anything I said, not however from you csteele, ever.
Look again, just what is behind Migration, am I any place near right in saying Australia wants to grow, and Migration from most country,s helps.
So who is this Australia, the thing country group that makes our minds up for us who will come here.
Could it be the UN in harness with this Australia who is experimenting with the melting pot of humanity to see what comes out in say a century.
I favor such a thing, one humanity, many faces many colors all Ausralian and proud of it.
Muslim, a RELIGION THAT IS government, is that going to blend in to the mix?
Look at the teaching, the different faces the many teachings of this SOME TIMES BIGOTED creed, how will it blend, will it in 100 years be AUSTRALIA?
I must remember, modern man is to become just gay enough, to not have his opinions, to not see a problem.
But as always if war comes to die for the very folk who named him for?
Doing what millions of Muslims do every day, telling about our differences like say merry Christmas to us being a sin.
In this matter IF no other, those who believe in no GOD MUST CONFRONT WHY THEN ARE WE ON OUR KNEES to this one.

Suseonline “Australia has weathered many new groups of immigrants over the past centuries.”

Because? They were European, which is the point I made.
Mixing Christian Indo-Europeans with Christian Indo-Europeans isn't chalk and cheese, that's chalk and chalk.

“the sky still hasn't fallen in.”

Because? The core Australian ethnicity still predominates.
But it's declining all the time.

The past fuels the present, but that momentum won't hold forever.
Australian-born White Australians were 90% of the population in the 1940s.
Now it's about 60%.
When it falls below 50%, sayonara, party over.
Then you will see the true face of multiculturalism: tribal warfare.

Lexi “to many people - Muslims conjure forth images of women behind veils, adulterers being stoned, thieves having their hands cut off, public floggings and executions, martyrdom in holy wars, aircraft hijackings and terrorist bombings.”

Because? It's true.

Paul1405 “They all came to Australia for the oddest of reasons, many came for the absurd reason of wanting a better life for their family.”

Oh, the old chestnut: a better life. Aw.

And? Why are *we* to provide that better life?
Why aren't they responsible for improving their *own* societies, instead of just parasitically benefiting from *our* ancestors' blood, sweat and tears?
We have a better life because *our* people made it better.

In case you've forgotten, many Australians were living in slums and indentured servitude not so long ago.
Our recent “better life” is an historical anomaly, not some eternal, magic or automatic phenomena.

“Edward Moses Obeid. John Ibrahim, Ivan Milat, Martin Bryant”

Oh, another old chestnut. The argument-by-individuals, in this case bad examples (usually it's Victor Chang mode, the good examples)

Fail. You can find good and bad individuals in any group.
This does not invalidate the observation that certain groups have a documented greater tendency to social problems.
Greater numbers encourages segregation, magnifying the problems.
Inversely, reducing the numbers has the opposite effect.

“crazy, loony fools who at one time or another espoused "unacceptable" ideas”

Don't kid yourself. You are toeing the line, not leading a revolution.

csteele,
You said,"I would say that a family who has migrated from an area where this odious procedure is rife is quickly disavowed of the practice once they are in Australia. While in some families it may survive a generation it is unlikely to continue into the second. If one had the ability to compare the rates of FGM in a thousand families who remained in these areas compared to a thousand second generation families of migrants who are living in Australia it is a no-brainer that the rates would be vastly different".

You would say would you? You would be wrong! Whilst there are no stats available the evidence is that FGM is increasing in Aus. This is dispite large ammounts spent on education of the selected groups 'at risk'. The education was started in 1994. Such is the strength of entrenched cultural practice. I am informed that girls that were 'cut' here years ago are now havong their own daughters done. It is culture handed down to each generation.

Belly is correct, pollies and the general public 'turn a blind eye'. People may express abhorrence of FGM but they are not concerned enough to put presure on pollies to enforce the law. Yet we carry out raids and prosecute people for holding cockfights. What does that tell you?

This 'blind eye' attitude means we do not even keep stats, yet Auburn and Canterbury hospitals, Sydney, have specialist units to treat post FGM problems, as does the Royal Womens in Melbourne.

After all this time, there is to be the first Prosecutions soon, one couple in WA and another 8 persons in NSW. These will be vitally important in reducing the incidence here, as it will show that we mean what we say. Hopefully more prosecutiopns to follow.

It is moments like these.
Not that as the add says you need Minties.
What we need is understanding.
As mentioned in my post above who is to say who is wrong, and who is right?
This subject, and going any place near to WELFARE reform, see,s me dumped on.
OK by me, but is csteele ALWAYS right, are the followers of that poster infallible? always.
IF I am a racist, xenophobe, are not the millions, of Muslims who hate us not too.
Banjo said FGM was practiced in other cultures, in Africa,many of those cultures are Muslim.
My opponents conveniently OVER LOOK the reason it is done.
*It is done so men keep control of women*
It proposes women do not enjoy sex after it.
We must confront a truth, this religion as no other is both belief and Government.
And no grounds other than words of love and a special blindness, from posters in support of csteele,s special blindness to my side,is blind.
Count the daily hourly murders and crimes committed against females including girls.
It would be entertaining, to see my opponents trying to justifie the Talibans attempt to kill that little girl, sinful that she is for wanting to be educated.
You. every one of you, have the chance to see a professional at work, csteele time and again, include folk not mentioned or part of this thread.
This is true Islam is both God and Government, that at least is its world wide aim.
IF the Catholic Church tried that?
No creed has any right to involve its self in politics.

Dear Banjo,

“Whilst there are no stats available the evidence is that FGM is increasing in Aus.”

Strewth mate, really?

You wouldn't let me get away with that so what makes you think you could?

Whose evidence? Yours? I happen to know two social workers who are engaged with Somali refugees and they both tell me the exact opposite. There are many actively seeking help with reversing the effects of FGM in clinics such as at the Royal Melbourne but very few attempting to maintain the cultural practice. There is actually quite strong opposition to it within the migrant community here.

That is not to deny it occurs and its incidence will to some extent mirror the first generation migrant numbers from areas that have FGM as a cultural practice but to claim rates don't dramatically drop after arriving in Australia is plain ludicrous.

If you can't accept the fact that given the legal, educational and societal restraints on the practice in Australia will mean dramatically less numbers of females of the current and future generations will suffer this procedure then your prejudice knows no bounds. If you do then surely that is a good thing we are achieving as a nation when we accept peoples from these areas.

From 1999–2000 to 2008–09 Australia accepted nearly 40,000 immigrants/refugees from areas within Africa where the FGM rates are traditionally around 75 to 98%.

You are correct in stating there are not relevant quantitative studies done in Australia nor overseas about the prevelance of support for FGM within migrant communities.

This is a link to a qualitative Norwegian study.
“Attitudes toward female circumcision among Somali immigrants in Oslo: a qualitative study”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3271810/

Despite its limitations it is quite revealing how much attitudes change to reflect their adopted country's attitude toward the practice. These are a few quotes;

“An anthropological study in Norway stated that FC, which is perceived as cleansing and a sign of womanhood in Somalia, has now been reinterpreted by Somali women in exile as “amputation and even mutilation.”

Cont..

Cont..

“It should be stopped because it is not a religious requirement. It is a cultural thing and we live far away from that culture now ... I think FC will soon be history among Somalis in Norway.” (43-year-old female)

“This practice is not a religious requirement, and therefore we have to stop it. We have experienced its pain, so how could we subject the same pain to our daughter?” (44-year-old female)

“I am against it because my religion doesn’t prescribe female circumcision. On top of that, it creates several health problems, and I have gone through all those complications. That is why I am against it.” (43-year-old female)

“God has created women in a good condition, and it doesn’t say that certain tissues should be removed from girls. The external genital tissues are created by God; if these tissues are cut, girls will no longer have any sexual feeling.” (19-year-old male)

“The majority of Somalis don’t support FC, but the surrounding environment is pushing them to circumcise their daughters. If they don’t, their daughter will be stigmatized by girls who are circumcised. In Norway, the majority of Somali girls are not circumcised, and thus circumcision is not a plus.” (48-year-old male)

“A friend of mine who uses “Facebook” told me that when he meets a girl, he always asks “if she is circumcised,” and if she says yes, he terminates the discussion. The boys in Norway want uncircumcised girls, and the parents know that their daughters will be better off without circumcision.” (48-year-old male)

“Men always ask if I am circumcised or not, that is their first question. I ask them why they ask that question, but it seems that they don’t want circumcised women.” (26-year-old female)

I have no reason to believe that this situation isn't reflected within Australia.

I am proud of the fact that by accepting those 40,000 migrants/refugees we have prevented literally thousands from suffering FGM. Why aren't you?

Belly,

About you being "entertained" by seeing your opponents trying to justify the Taliban attack on that little girl.....

I'm fast coming to the opinion that such a tactic like that in debate with people you "supposedly respect" is a little low to be bothered with.

You're the same guy that would send all the little girls packing back where they came from aren't you? After all they're representative of that nasty religion and all that it represents - aren't they?.

Fundamentalist blockheads abound in all cultures, mate...and if you're accusing myself, csteele or any one of us of being apologists for such a crime, then you deserve to be left ranting to yourself.

I tell you, I can't believe these Pollyannas (males included) that let down the female sex completely. Cultural relativism at its ugliest. Talk about the blind leading the blind. The Pollyannas are a dodgy bunch. They just don't have an argument - it is the same totally predictable dirty bullying of name calling instead of stating any informative insights. Always the same broken record playing.

Gandhi and Martin Luther King - Yes, real heros. Mandela - No. The ANC used violence (burning tires especially) against their opponents. The Inkatha Freedom Party lead by Buthelizi were much less violent but it seemed had no choice in responding to the ANC aggressors. Just because people are glorified doesn't mean they're heroes. Otherwise you would be a dumb mug for the publicity machine. Or something not unlike um, "STEPFORD WIVES". And these people like Suse, Poirot, Foxy & et al, really do scare me.

Have you noticed anything lately in the media? Like, terrorist threat warnings? The govt saying to be MINDFUL and ALERT all the time. They said they receive tens of thousands calls, some pranks, but said most of the calls are highly helpful and that they have nabbed plenty of of people on their way to destroying My Country. This has all been happening over the past year. I have heard on the radio a few months ago that there have been 4 real biggies that have been prevented. Now tell me who your heros are? The National Security tel no. is 1800 123 400 - for those WHO REALLY DO CARE!

Constance,

Do you have a telephone number for those who are merely insular and paranoid?

Poirot,

Do you have a telephone number to a good psychologist?

My Dear Constance,

I'm sure if you peruse your local white pages you'll find one.

For yourself, I'm balanced and have no need. For a start aren't you too old to be playing detective? That could be your starting point with the psychologist.

at the end of the day the apologist always refuse to study the character of the founder of the Islamic faith. No more needs to be said. Sure the Catholic church and many others have perverted the teachings of Jesus however even most agnostics accept most His teachings. Now as for Mohammed! Well better keep the peace in order to keep your head.

Constance,

"...aren't you too old to be playing detective?..."

Hmmm....no...I don't think that's gonna cut it. My little grey cells were expecting a much cleverer rejoinder. It's back to the drawing board for you, Constance - and next time try a little wit.

Besides, perhaps you should get back to the radio - you might be missing another "biggy".

>>For yourself, I'm balanced and have no need.<<

Well you would say that wouldn't you?

In my experience only people who are properly mental think that they're completely sane and rational. Most people are sane enough to realize that we're all a bit unhinged - some more than others.

Cheers,

Tony

Watch the threads posts with care.
Can it truly be that I am just a racist, just too dumb to understand?
Well yes, but it is not true.
I may OFTEN,let my concerns run away with me.
But FGM is real, it takes place here, forced Child Marriages too,and it happens to girls in my country.
A leader of this faith, did say wishing us a Merry Christmas is a sin.
Remember those very big men , out side the court that woman who lied about Police?
Big sons of cousins, parents often arrange weddings between cousins, threatening men , csteele froth at the mouth, at my view a thug is a thug.
We Australians, will do nothing about Muslim separatism, it is their nature, a requirement they have in every country they,can not say that, yet it is true, csteele will dislike it, but you guess what they do, on arriving in the EVIL WEST.
Are todays fears PC correct? can we say we fear worldwide NASTY separate Muslim actions, are we yet sick? sick of sick Muslim kids hating us.
In the name of a GOD few believe ever existed.
What freedom of [from would be better] do those who believe in evolution not God have.

Poirot and Tony,

Predictable again. This does get tedious, and rather cheap. Po - Your mention of wit demanded on serious matters reveals you have no argument and is a tad narcissistic. As a psychologist would advise, your first battle is to over come your denial. Tony, yes no-one is perfect and some are more unhinged than others.

Wuz just joshin', Constance.

You know, sometimes I like a little joust.

Anyhooo...wasn't it Homer Simpson who was presented with a certificate pronouncing him "sane".

Perhaps you can get one too?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/cabinet-papers/fraser-was-warned-on-lebanese-migrants/story-e6frgda6-1111112763458
Flee! run for your life! Belly is posting links again!
Easy enough to brand him and those who think differently than? us!,xenophobes but who will tell our Parliament, those who warned, and wrote this they too are wrong.
It must feel warm comfortable, being so nice, so sure ANYONE fearing for our very way of life is, well rotten to the core.
History not yet made, yes it will get worse, all over the world.
Will question why people who tell us, the western world,are so unloved that they came to live amung us and tell us up front.
After the thing that divides us leads to war,hope we survive.
That the western world not a middle ages cult to help men dominate women survives.

Belly,

"..then you deserve to be left ranting to yourself."

Have fun!

Dear Belly,

I will ask you the same question I did of banjo.

I am proud of the fact that by accepting those 40,000 migrants/refugees we have prevented literally thousands from suffering FGM. Why aren't you?

As to the very brave lass who was shot by the Taliban if you can find any reference to her on this site before my condemnation of that act of bastardry then I will give you free rein for the next month.

csteele just as you know you do not like me, do not think I know what I am talking about.
'Know this, it is your written words that tell me you are unlikely to be some one I could like.
My words are the real me.
IMO honestly held, you speak in defense of ANY member of the community I willingly question.
Answer you?
you would not like me to tell you more.
Freedom of the right to practice religion.
nice
Is my freedom, not to have other religion imposed on me, not to see tax breaks to fantasy's , not to see Governments tainted by a thing I deny , is that freedom mine?

Dear Belly,

I neither like nor dislike you. You are an anonymous web entity that creates content some of which I happen to take issue with. In real life you may well be a lovely bloke but I am only dealing with what comes from your keyboard.

The issue is that your message, one that I find deeply troubling, is being propogated on a public forum. In my opinion it deserves being forcibly challenged.

This I feel is where you problem lies. You write things here that you would be reticent in expressing if you were facing a crowd of strangers. They are of a more personal nature than you would be comfortable with in a RL situation. The flip side is that when those views are challenged and rebuked you take it personally.

It is an understandable reaction but in the end rather fruitless as I am also in your world an anonymous web entity.

So my message to you, for what it is worth, is try and remember you are on a public forum and that when you trot out personal bigotry, which in most situations you may not otherwise be expressing, there is a high likelihood you will be challenged on it and it will seem like a personal attack.

In the grand scheme of things it isn't.

Now how about answering my question.

Belly - I must say thanks for the above link re the Lebanese migrants.

One part reminds me of what we are getting now boatloads of welfare for lifers
"a high percentage were illiterate and unskilled."
ADD to that most of the boat people don't speak English and a fair number do not want to learn.

Trouble is I don't want to wait 30 years to be proven right because by then it will be too late we will have them and there relatives.

csteele,
You said."I am proud of the fact that by accepting those 40,000 migrants/refugees we have prevented literally thousands from suffering FGM. Why aren't you?"

If you believe that you need to be rid of your rose coloured glasses.
It is fancifull and simply wishfull thinking.

My informants come from the front line in the medical field and their observations are exactly opposite. FGM is increasing and the education program we have engaged in for 18 years has not reduced the incidence at all. Girls that had FGM done to them years ago are now having their own daughters cut. Even if a young mum was not keen for her daughter to be 'done', do you think she could resist the presure from the older family members? Get real about ingrained cultural matters. The observation is that FGM is against the law but nobody checks anyway, so get it done.

You also need to get more education about FGM. Fact is it cannot be reversed. Surgeons cannot replace a cliteros and labia scar tissue does not stretch like normal labia tissue during birthing, so there are ongoing problems. Sure deinfribulation can improve urine and menstral flows, but that is not reversing the effects of FGM.

To reduce the incidence strong law enforcement with heavy penalties is required.

I repeat, no Australian born girl should be subject to FGM. I am ashamed that some girls are and that we continue to allow it.

Dear Banjo,

You state that strong law enforcement and heavy penalities
are required to stop FGM.

However there are medical experts who strongly
disagree with you.
They are people who know what they are talking about - and
who work with this problem on a regular basis. Here's
what they have to say:

Firstly, Somali born , Zeinab Mohamud, of the Family and
Reproduction Rights Education Program - at the Royal
Women's Hospital in Melbourne - whose job it is to untangle
outdated cultural traditions and religious misconceptions
says: "You have to work with these women, listen to them.
You have to know where they are coming from in order to
help them."

Dr Ted Weaver of the Royal Australian and New Zealand College
of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists agrees:

"Ordering people against the practice of FGM won't work.
If we want to dictate and pontificate about this and
not provide culturally appropirate care we shall further
disenfranchise these women."

That's why it is very important to keep doing what is
currently being done by the medical profession in our
leading hospitals. Things will change eventually -
but it will take time. Miracles don't happen overnight.
Quick judgements and quick fix solutions simply are not
the answer according to the people who work in this area.

cont'd ...

Your statement that "we allow it," is
simply wrong. On the contrary -
our medical professionals are doing all
they can to educate and prevent it.

csteele,

Growing up in England was a happy time for me. The police didn't carry guns, and on the whole we appeared to have a pretty peaceful and law-abiding society.

Then England opened her borders,and a politician Lloyd George predicted this would be a disaster. The first major influx was from Jamaica and Pakistan, and abuse of the unemployment system really took hold then, and inter-racial violence too.

My family had a thriving business, so their reason for us leaving England was not financial.
The sole reason was that my parents wanted a better and safer future for their children.

To this end they chose Australia after researching which countries appeared to have peaceful and growing rather than shrinking economies.

When we arrived, what struck us most was the enthusiasm and love Aussies had for this country. We were welcomed with open arms and generosity of spirit.

Now as a proud citizen of Australia I see the English scenario we thought was forever behind us beginning to be replayed here.

My Aussie sons have visited relatives remaining in the U.K., and are happy to hurry home, but they too, having seen England as it is now, better understand the ramifications of uncontrolled immigration, and have grave concerns that we face the same fate as England.

Aussies still retain generosity of spirit, but is this now being abused?

Dear Lexi,

I'm afraid I am going to disagree with you and the Doctor on this one. I know how much laws serve to empower people in standing up to odious practice. That is not to say eduction isn't an essential component in the fight against FGM because it clearly is but I fully support strong legal proscriptions against it. This was illustrated in the link I posted to the Oslo study. That being said I a willing to look at any other sources you may have.

http://www.islamhelpline.com/node/582
Csteele you have thrown that rock, faceless poster att me once too often.
First folk who let others prod them in to NEEDLESSLY REVEALING their real names are fools.
However, my name printed here OFTEN for all to SEE is Allan Bell, I live on the mid north coast of NSW.
Who csteele are you?
Philip S YOU KNOW as I do, we are fire and water, I challenge YOU, to under stand! I want the boat people stopped as much as you do!
And to know, without doubt, our social security system is a draw card, to know too Labor got it wrong, on boat people.
NOW stop cuddling your self!
As you respect those words of mine, even like them hear this!
Nasty man Abbott, played a part too.
Do not throw the figures at me I can count.
Indonesia, Malaya, are NOT THE HOMES OF THE ECONOMIC REFUGEES.
Police and sundry criminals,politicians, in those country's earn cash by keeping the trade alive.
To stop the boats they want something.
That some thing is was and will be under Liberals us taking more than we send back.
Before shouting at me! KNOW YOU MOB WILL NEED ANSWERS SOON!
Not just saying NO.
The link is a moderate voice from the Muslim side, trying to calm voices that harm more often than not.
Yet can we here another voice of reason.
Why should the west a world teaching evolution be held back by something few of us believe in.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-17/muslim-group-wants-sharia-law-in-australia/2717096
This link, from this country, 2011 takes INTESTINAL FORTITUDE TO READ.
It takes true blindness to ignore.
It SHOUTS wake up.
Forget the Multi Cultures.
See the only one, openly calling for?
SEPARATISM IN MY COUNTRY.

Lexi,
I have never advocated that the education program should be stopped, but it should be reinforced by strong law enforcement with harsh penalties. By any standard it is serious child abuse.

It is interesting to note that ALL immigrants are informed about our society when applying for a visa, in 30 different languages. This includes that FGM is against the law. But what happens is that they are told by their relos here that they can continue FGM because no one worrys about it being against the law. That must change. Hopefully the upcoming prosecutions will be a start.

Also I have never advocated that post FGM services be curtailed. FGM victims need good medical services.

Dear Banjo,

I think the message from the medical professionals
who deal with FGM is clear. Harsher law penalties
are not going to work however education and culturally
appropriate methods may eventually change things.
But it won't happen overnight. "You have to work with
them, listen to them. You have to know where they are
coming from in order to help them."
"Ordering people against the practice won't work. If we
try to dictate and pontificate about this and not
provide culturally appropriate care we shall further
disenfranchise these women." Reaching them and
untangling these outdated cultural traditions and
religious misconceptions is the way to go."

So we need to spend money on "education" about unacceptable cultural practices (in 30 different languages).

Wouldn't it be easier to just limit immigration to societies that don't have these cultural practices?
Oh no, we must let everyone in, *then* try to change them.

We wouldn't even need to do this if we hadn't "dismantled" the old policy of Europeans-only.
Ever heard of these problems with Swedes? Irish? Spanish? Russians?

They also, Belly, are increasingly non-religious populations.
No so the "coloured" world. Filled with superstitions, freaky beliefs, disgusting customs.
But they're so "enriching"!

Dear Belly,

I will admit to giving a brief moments thought to how on earth you managed to take from what I had written and come out with “Csteele you have thrown that rock, faceless poster att me once too often.”

But I've been giving you some thought my dear fellow and I think I may have worked you out.

You work incredibly hard to prolong threads you have started and one of your methods is to twist other's posts to keep the banter going. I think at least half, if not most of it, is for show. You fancy yourself as a puppet master – no wait, that is probably overstating things, it is probably more instinctual but it drives you none the less.

I recall an exchange you had on the Islamic Riot thread and have gone back to it.

Forrest Gumpp in a post written to Poirot; “Oh, and BTW, only seven more posts after this one will see this topic become the all-time most-posted-to topic in the General Discussion area of the Forum. Can we do it? Yes we can!”

You wrote a reply;
“Unfortunately any Friday, prayer day, could see the thread charge past that.
Some are in to 3.000 posts, very crude mostly, no way to sell a thought.
I find our efforts not worth concern compared to what I saw elsware.”

While a little dismissive nothing of note there but you followed it later with;

“I also have never before seen so much uninformed and one sided debate , my threads may not bring big numbers but I intend to try to get a bit away from politics for a while.”

I remember thinking it a little odd as I had looked at the numbers after FG's post and seen you had more than a few threads in the top ten of News and Current Affairs, in fact you now have half of them.

I now assume the success of rehctub's thread was eating you up and thus the derogatory remarks.

Cont..

Cont..

You see I think ultimately you are an 'attention whore' and a jealous one at that. What we think of as 'senior moments' from you are actually quite calculated and once one gets ones head around that a lot of things fall into place. For instance when you wrote here of an author “No right wing Fascist wrote this” but your link clearly showed that was exactly what he was, you did so explicitly to get a response.

And you also pick the push button topics. Sex scandals, refugees, climate change, Muslim immigration, religion and animal rights. You have a fine eye for what works.

Now I'm not condemning you since this really is a discussion forum and you have provoked a lot of it, and if it is how you get your jollies then who are we to complain. Of course I am happy to still play but perhaps with a little less enthusiasm as before and I will be taking your episodes of high dudgeon with more than a little grain of salt.

But hats off to you mate. You have hooked me more than once.

csteele you leave me no choice,folk like you, without reserve, keep me away from increasing numbers of threads.
I come to learn and debate.
And the red necks come to leave trash one sided views here, and insult those who actually put thought in to comments.
It is my view, you come here to defend middle eastern folk and with practiced ease try to cover comments against them.
You refer to my habit of continuing to post in my own threads, guilty.
Show me your true ID you switched conversations mid stream,why.
Csteele in time I will leave OLO but for many/most truth will remain.
The left, like the right, very should be in front of those terms, need to come here, in real life they could not get a crowd giving away 50 dollar notes.
This morning one from each group you from the so far left it is idiotic and good old boy Raw Mustard have branded me, room for truth exists forever.
Muslim Koran tells the followers of this fantasy to lie, some do it well.

Sorry, hands up, I did wrong.
I let csteele get to me,charged off mid first post and posted.
I recommend we all read every post from our last FIRST.
Went back did that.
Rechtub? I like to see others threads run for a long time, and my comment was aimed at new arrivals purely red necks.
I however have lost interest in rechtubs threads, clearly not that one.
csteele look at what may be my ex freind Lexis last post, IT COULD BE YOU!
FGM! now see? skidding around the issue, it is done still here in this country, do we now defend RAPES in INDIA as a cultural thing!
I love this site, contribute to its upkeep,like its cool headed moderation.
But you? best I not say, best I not tell again the very real damage deniers like you bring.
To the victims of this middle ages CULT.
You by inference say millions world wide thinking as I do are lessor to the followers of a never existed God

Lexi,
I think you are giving far too much consideration to the perpetrators of FGM (the parents) rather than consideration for the victims.

I recall reading that in colonial India there was a traditional practice of burning the wife of a deceased man on his funeral pire. The general in charge stated that the British also had a tradition of hanging those that did such things. I do not recall if any hangings took place, but the culture of wife burning on funeral pires stopped.
The point is that, if penalties are harsh enough cultural practice can change. Bullfighting is a traditional cultural practice, but very rare here because it is difficult to hide and the penalties are harsh.

So do not disscount strong law enforcement and harsh penalties in relation to FGM. 18 years of education, without any decrease in the incidence, indicates that further measures are required.

Belly,

"...do we now defend RAPES in INDIA as a cultural thing!"

What!?

If rapes happened only in India, you might have an argument.

Or should we assume that all the rapists of Anglo-European decent in Australia are operating from a cultural perspective?

Having perused csteele's recent analysis, I conclude that the above comment from you was one more example of the same.

Dear Banjo,

It isn't me who's 'giving too much consideration
to the perpetrators of FGM instead of the victims.'
That statement of yours is wrong. I am simply
quoting the medical professionals who work with
the victims of FGM in our leading hospitals and
from their experience they're telling us - what
will work and what won't. You believe that harsher
penalities will work. They, from their experience
have found this not to be the case and they've
stated what they believe will work.

If you want to disagree with people who actually work
and have to deal with this issue on a regular basis.
That up to you.

See you on another thread.

Gentlemen of the world lay down you pen!
Least some thing you say offend Poirot Lexi, or the mystery within a mystery csteele.
Least too your honest opinions are hurled back at you in the form of the insulting ,but lovable charge *you said it to keep,waiting drums ! the thread going*!
Charming stuff, purely rubbish to.
In my country, CRIMSON HELL!
Who gave me the right to name a thread that.
And as for the MILLIONS around the world sharing my views? crazy s the lot of them!
Not so, I proudly distance myself from Banjos brand of believe nothing Labor say politics.
Banjo can not hurt the party.
But deliberately! yes I charge these pro Islamics, with deliberately skirting around females being butchered enslaved and EVEN making lite of my reference to RAPE IN INDIA, every 20 minutes.
Swinging voters please, do not give up on true left but never forget the very left is a leach.
Riding any cause, over looking any crime, to be seen.
Do you know I gave thought to leaving?
I have often done so red necks without true understanding I can handle.
Its the bitterness of the female left the unconcern about issue they see differently.
Csteele even charged me, poirot too, with being here to build my ego.
GUTLESS and untrue ladys!
It always has been men who die at the front defending this country.
This cult is of harm to world peace and its own female members.
Hundreds of thousands think that in this country alone.
I NEVER will retreat from grubbiness aimed at stopping me haveing an opinion.
I NEVER EVER SAID A SINGLE WORD TO PROLONG A THREAD!
Who ARE you csteele, you now know who I am but who are you.

Belly,

"...RAPE IN INDIA..."

You are shouting RAPE IN INDIA...Why are you shouting about Rape in India? What has that heartbreaking incident got to do with the subject at hand?

It's your way of spruiking a line - provoking a response.

Or are you intimating that all third worlders are culturally diabolical because of that rape? What should we make of the rapists in our own society and what does it say about us? It says that we deplore such violent and socially unacceptable actions.

Funnily enough, Indians seem to be saying the same thing?

Time to find another provocative headline methinks.

Lexi,
OK, we agree to disagree on this issue of FGM.

However in closing, I make this point. The Dr and other person you quoted do not know if penalties will work because they have not yet been tried. We know education alone has not worked.

Then, a few days ago, a local Iman was quoted as saying, "Girls have a right to FGM" Unbelievable in Australia.

These are the attitudes that those opposing FGM are up against.

Belly,

I just reread your post.

I see a case of you being able to dish it out, but not to take it.

It seems (and correct me if I'm reading it wrong) that according to you, Lexi, and particularly csteele and I are bitter females, gutless and leeches of the left..well, ho bloody hum, can't you for once divest your opinion from the lefty/righty argument.

And why do you ask csteele to reveal his identity (which apparently is already partly revealed)...you've spent many an hour warning people on OLO of the dangers of revealing too much info - changed your tune,have you?

We're all here at the behest of our egos, Belly. If it wasn't for our need to polish our egos, none of us would bother. You're no different in that regard.

Things have moved a long way from the fatwa that really wasn't that started the thread, Belly...

Someone who is clearly on your side re FGM is the Minaret of Freedom Institute's Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad, Ph.D.:

"For Muslims, cliterodectomy and infibulation should be considered harâm (prohibited) practices and opposition to it should be part of our ongoing mandate to fight against superstition and oppression. As to the mildest form of female circumcision, the risks to the girl's future ability to enjoy sexual relations with her husband must place it at best in the category of makrûh (disliked) practices. Since it has neither hygienic nor religious value, there is no justification for Muslims to engage in this painful and potentially harmful practice and it would be best to avoid it completely."

Besides, FGM like rape, is illegal in Australia... so that's that then.

Doesn't mean though, sadly, that prosecution or justice is easily or necessarily obtained.

Banjo,

Sati - the burning of widows on husband's funeral pyre did not discontinue in Colonial India. I remember hearing of one that occurred about 10 years ago. I have now done a google and found this:

http://webjcli.ncl.ac.uk/2009/issue2/ahmad2.html

"In the modern times, there have been a few instances of sati in Rajasthan (1987), Utter Pradesh (2006) Madhya Pradesh (2002 and 2006) and in Chattisgarh (2008). The practice of Sati mostly happens in parts of northern and central India. Isolated incidents may be more but not reported officially that caused a lot of controversy and social turmoil in the country over and over again.

What does India's legal system have to say about this? The government of India has dropped its move to toughen the law against sati (The Times of India, April 23, 2008) This paper will examine the relevant provisions of law and as well as socio legal tangle of this issue."

Belly,

Don't let these delusional women get to you. Just ignore them. I know you are just being an honest concerned citizen. I encourage you to keep on fighting the fight. They are only bullies. God help us if the world was only full of Foxy/Lexi's, csteele's, Suse's and people masquerading as clever detectives. Yes, thank God for the real men who have defended us in the past and still continue. And may free speech prevail.

Constance I thank you.
While I think you have me down to pat, I say what I think.
I am an admirer of all the women you speak of.
Poirot some one said, is from a radical group.
I have seen no evidence of that,from any other than csteele.
A quick swim in the post history may be my best support.
Are men not just there to open the doors step aside so as not to bump in to the gathering in the middle of shopping isles.
Are good manners now to include not telling your truth if it offends,
NO WAY! my thoughts are my true ones poirot scrapes the bottom of her barrel to fill my mouth hand shut me up!
never, look at the very left, if the greens do not house nearly all of them, if say 5% can be added to greens numbers to house them.
15% of AUSTRALIANS, at worst, yes extremist left is an illness, want me to shut up.
I see the use of RAPE as a verbal weapon, by a woman as tragic evidence the left is forever lost.
Health and the sheer inability to post without insults from both left and right will in time not far away drive me to another site.
Such has become the fate of posters here.
This bitterly fought out election year too, will require me to re consider my spare time.
Some great people here conservatives and Labor, remember forever and ever.
CSTEELE IS A FRONT a person trying to take away the right to free speech, I still think based only on written words seen here anti west
Who is going to tell our children? about what this country once was.
About folk from almost every country sitting together at cricket or football shouting have a go you mug.
And hopeing on the train ride home third generation Australian Muslims did not riot again..

Belly,

"Poirot some one said, is from a radical group
I have seen no evidence of that, from any other than csteele."

Which radical group would that be?

I think you're losing the plot, Belly.

Why would you write something like that...except to insinuate something that you have no evidence of.....to put it on the page as a blot on someone's character, something which has no basis in fact.

That's a pretty low act.

No-one ever said anything like that on this forum regarding Poirot - and you know it.

It was just an aspersion for you to drop on the page.

No-one is attempting to stop your free speech. However, you seem to think that if someone stridently opposes your view, they should keep it to themselves. Debating you on OLO, apparently, according to your new mantra, is threatening your freedom of speech.

Good on ya, Constance....anyone who disagrees with Belly must be a delusional bully......

Well of course they are!

Constance should know, she's apparently "balanced" - Ask her, she'll tell you : )

Dear worldwatcher,

Pining for the past is pretty universal.

I have had the privilege of teaching English to new arrivals on a volunteer basis.

The one I have spent the most time with was a young doctor from Vietnam. His is very grateful for the life he has been given in Australia and he works incredibly hard. While studying for his Medical English exams he is doing hard yards as a farm labourer.

What is interesting is how fondly he speaks of his school days when society, law and order provided respect, safety and structure that allowed him to enjoy his formative years. Now he says those same schools are rife with drugs, thefts and assaults. While he sees the freedoms of the West trumping most things he feels western influences have played their role in denying the current Vietnamese youth the 'blessings' he had.

In the end the world is still struggling with a modernity that in many societies remains an affliction. Add to that economic displacements which are always occurring and changes will not always be comfortable nor for some tenable.

Often a natural reaction is to find some one or some group to blame.

Dear Banjo,

One of the medical experts that I quoted was a
Somali born professional who's more than familiar
with what works and what doesn't in getting through
to these women. However, I'm glad that you do recognise
the fact that this is a complex issue and that it will
take time to solve.

Dear Belly,

People tend to see things from a viewpoint of subjectivity -
that is, an interpretation based on personal values and
experiences. If the world consisted simply of some self-
evident reality that everyone perceived in exactly the
same way, there might be no disagreement among observers.

Dear Constance,

The art of reasoned, intelligent argument is a skill not
easily acquired and the first point to remember -
is to always argue in a logical manner. Sound reasoning will
conquer unreasonable generalisations every time.
Your personal attacks on posters of this forum makes you
appear to be arguing on an emotional level, not a mature,
intelligent one. Instead of appealing to God, or calling
people that you really don't know - "bullies," does not
win you any points but makes you appear as
an abusive, illogical and weak debater.
It's all very well to call for 'freedom of speech,"
But it would be more effective if you added freedom of
thought to the equation, which at present appears to be sadly
lacking in your posts.

“This manifested itself in newspapers, in statements by members of parliament and in resolutions passed by pressure groups such as the Returned Services League (RSL) and the Australian Natives Association (ANA).  Anti-Jewish sentiments were expressed in daubing and damage to property, particularly in areas of Jewish concentrations in Melbourne and Sydney. This opposition was a result of traditional prejudices against Jews. Jews were portrayed as incapable of assimilating. They were accused of setting up sweatshops, working long hours for low wages, thereby undermining Australian living standards. They were labelled the moneylenders who controlled the banks and media. In addition, Jews were portrayed as godless people out to destroy Christianity and lacking morality. They were wealthy, indicating that they were greedy and obsessed with money. The Jewish concept of the ‘Chosen People’ led to the well-known accusations of international control and world conspiracy theories. Above all, Jews were physically undesirable — fat, ugly, with hooked noses and foreign accents — features highlighted in articles and cartoons published in newspapers such as The Bulletin, Truthand Smith’s Weekly. The word ‘Jew’ did not always appear on these cartoons, but the visual representation made it clear that the negative message was referring to Jews and that, if they were given the chance, they would take over the country.”
http://www.ijs.org.au/Jewish-Immigration-after-the-Second-World-War/default.aspx

Seems we have some of us here are determined to repeat history. Different victims perhaps but similar perpetrators one would suspect.

Dear Banjo,

You wrote; “Then, a few days ago, a local Iman was quoted as saying, "Girls have a right to FGM" Unbelievable in Australia.”

More than unbelievable I'm afraid, down right ludicrous. You have put that in direct quotation marks so you are claiming a local Iman said exactly that? Well dish up the proof my friend because without it you are just pissing in the wind.

So has the incidence of FGM performed in Australia increased since this country admitted refugees/immigrants from that part of the world where the practice is part of the culture? Of course. To expect it to be zero is unrealistic.

Is it rife? No.

Is its prevalence among the migrant community diminished from the rates that would have occurred in their countries of origin? All the current research says yes, to minimal levels.

By exposing these people to our culture and values we have literally saved thousands of girls suffering FGM. Are you prepared to acknowledge that fact?

Csteele (Atheist Cultist who love to shite on Christianity and everyone else exempted),

Getting desperate now, aren't we? It was a Christian prime minister who let into Australia the highest percentage of holocaust survivors compared to any other western country. Who do you think are the real Jew haters? Europe, especially are having many problems with Muslims. And Christians in the Middle East are as well and are just plain fleeing and there will eventually be no Christians left there. Is this ethnic cleansing? How about the man named Mohammad who attacked a Jewish KINDERGARTEN in Toulouse in March this year. And how about the Beslan massacre on the school – 380 murdered by Muslim extremists there also? Tell me exactly, how many Jews were attacked in Australia by Christians? What fundamental Christians groups go around killing children?

I'm sure there was some Jewish settling problems but it wasn't extreme. You do know that there was a lot of anti Catholicism going on at that time and before probably since settlement when WASPS wouldn’t employ Catholics, and they didn’t allow Catholics to work for ASIO. In the police force they even had secret handshakes so they would know who was Mason and who was Catholic. That’s why many Catholics worked in the public service at the time, except for ASIO as far as I know. It was a different world then. Humans are generally tribal in nature. Get over it. But I'm afraid it seems Muslims are different, they have difficulty with modern western living. Whereas Jewish people adapt.

You know I also once did some volunteer work as a teacher's assistant for English as a Second Language in the early 80's. All of the students happened to be Muslim males and you know what, it didn't take long for me to resign because I found them to be so impolite and aggro.

You Pinkos just want mayhem and your hatred for Christians is very disturbing.

constance,

A most impressive array of insults!

Let's see what you've provided for us?

Csteele (Atheist Cultist who love to shite on Christianity and everyone else exempted)"

Hmmmm....

and

"You pinkos just want mayhem and your hatred for Christians is very disturbing."

Not half as disturbing as your representation of Christian ethics.

It's always puzzled me why it is that name-callers and those who pepper their posts with hollow allusions, who claim to be so mortally offended by others decrying bigotry, seem to exercise the greatest recourse to offensive rhetoric?

Lady Lexi,

Tell me about why I lack logic?
What am I generalizing about?
Why am I unintelligent?
My lack of Freedom of thought? What are you on about, you’re not making any sense again.

You are being abusive, Lexi and I can’t see any intelligent debate from your side happening here, and never have. Your only response is unwarranted abuse.

The madam lady passive aggressive display is so banal. I see it in my workplace coming from women all the time (they are mean and ain't ladies), and I tell you, so many people from different walks in life agree with me, both male and female. Yes, I’m emotional (am human) and I have a fire in my belly (no pun intended, Belly) because I am so sick of this dangerous cultural relativism BS. Don’t you have any empathy for Muslim women who have been abused by their own families by FGM and total control, and the dead ones who have been accused of dishonouring their families?

You are the one generalizing. You have made no comment to any content that I have stated except what I’ve stated about yourself and the other contributors I have mentioned and so you have avoided the actual topic of this discussion. All you seem to care about is yourself and your own status on line here which shows your narcissism. It is very bourgeois and in line with the modern so called liberal conformists. Sorry, but you need to get that stick out of your derriere.

You really took umbrage to my Stepford Wife comment, didn’t you? Well that’s sadly, how I honestly feel about you and the others. It’s like you’ve all taken the PC Madness blue pill.

Peacemaker roles are admirable when required but useless when it comes to debating – that is not their place.

csteele,
Here is the link to the reference I saw just a few days ago.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/health/female-circumcision-is-a-right-says-imam/story-fn59nokw-1226542730442.

Now you quoted research which shows FGM at minimal rates in Aus. How about a link to that research. I certainly not aware of any current research relating to FGM rates in Aus.

Again I see your claims as wishfull thinking, nurses and others that work in hospitals see the number of FGM cases in Aus increasing.

They may be less than that in other predominant muslim countries but even one is far too many.

Constance,
Thanks for the link to the paper on sati, I recall reading about what the General said and it may have been a quote from somewhere.

Some multiculturalists want us to allow more alien practices and continue to turn a blind eye to FGM and forced marriages.

When one looks around the world, there certainly are some cultural practices that we consider quite alien. India has many such.

We need to be vigilant and strong to stop alien cultural practices from encroaching on our society.

Dear Belly,

That's okay, you deserved it.

"Are good manners now to include not telling your truth if it . offends,"

I'm afraid that is how it is now. People become so precious of themselves these days and so thin skinned. They are status seeking conformists. Mainstream society has become very narcissistic.

Pursuit of the truth when tough questions are required is not fashionable. The liberals have nothing to offer, only platitudes and suppression/oppression. I call them illiberals (low intensity democracy) and other things. They're not rational and are not interested in understanding the world as it really is.

Belly,

Correction to my last post - you deserve support.

Quite finished are we Constance?

It's not often we see someone post wall-to-wall abuse while accusing everyone else of being abusive.

No-one has abused you here, least of all Lexi.

......................................................................

Here's an abridged version of your invective:

"Pollyannas" - "who are a dogy bunch".

"..dirty bullying name call[ers]..."

"STEPFORD WIVES"

"People like Suze, Poirot, Foxy & et al scare me."

"Delusional women [who are bullies]."

"Csteele(Atheist Cultist who loves to shite on Christians...)

"You Pinkos just want mayhem and your hatred for Christians is very disturbing"

During your particularly "unbalanced" tirade at Lexi you tell her she's passive-aggressive, narcissistic and further tell her.... "to get that stick out of your derriere."

...................................................................

You seem to have an obsession with narcissism for you never stop mentioning it - who knows what that's about?

Considering you've only been back here five minutes, your latest body of work on OLO comprises pretty much wall-to-wall abuse. It's hilarious that those who complain the most about bullying always turn out to be the most abusive posters.

Quite a stunning exhibition in that sense.

POIROT ARE YOU BRAVE ENOUGH? to confront your self in your own post?
The one under my last, you ,there clearly charge me with a crime you are committing from the first word.
In that post, you ignore in the last anti Muslim thread, this sites all time record one, some one named your affiliation with such a radical group,you did not deny it.
I would like to point out in that past thread I noted some forums had 3.000 posts,and the counter view, from Muslims,some times much more heated are equaled to that.
Integration has been the mold.
Some how we, maybe because free speech in this area is fought so hard by the few, Government has introduced the rotting fruit separatism, and told us it is good!
How can a faith born well after the Jewish God/Fable, after the Confusing Jesus fable, require my country change to fit its requirements?
What right have we to convict tax avoiders IF we give tax Breaks to fables?
How can some thing as UGLY as the worst of this creeds Children,in our country hate us yet claim God condemns us?

belly,
It is all standard fare for the luvies that support the 'Religion of Peace'.

Latest count is more than 20000 terrorist attacks since 9/11 all in the name of their God.

On a positive note, muslims help to keep the world population in check but their methods are questionable. Funny how those of that 'peacefull' religion keep calling for more beheadings.

Yes, Belly?

I'm brave enough (would appreciate it if you'd stop shouting)

Constance was the first to suggest the "psychologist" - I just carried on with the banter.

I take it you consider that her rhetoric on this thread is acceptable?

Okay....

I've defended you on this forum more times than I can count on both hands (and one time from a woman who complained of "bullying" while she was bullying and abusing you)...I didn't need to abuse others to accomplish my defence of you.

Do you consider Constance's last post to Lexi acceptable?

And you didn't answer my question...why did you write that trash about "someone saying Poirot was from a radical group"?

Dear Constance,

You obviously don't want to discuss
the issues. And I really don't have any wish
to enter into a mud-slinging contest
with you.

I'll leave you to your stirring.

Dear Banjo,

So the Iman never said the words you quoted "Girls have a right to FGM" did he.

In fact that Iman is an outspoken critic of FGM isn't he.

Instead what he said was;

“ “The definition under Islamic law for female circumcision is exclusively the removal of the uppermost extra skin at the top of the clitoral glans.
“Female circumcision in its legitimate form is a personal and human right of a woman; genital mutilation is a horrible crime.”
Imam Afroz indicated he believed the practice should only be performed on post-pubescent women. The imam argued his definition of female circumcision was the same as labiaplasty, or genital cosmetic surgery, which was legal in Australia.”

Now you could have made a reasonable argument that even this form of genital modification, even though it is becoming a popular surgery among non-believing Australian women, should not be part of any religious practice and I would agree. For me the whole notion that either Muslim, Jewish or indeed Indigenous cultures need to be messing with the genitals of our youth is wrong.

But that was not for you was it. You wanted to slander, incite impressionable minds like Belly's, and inflame anti-Muslim sentiment.

But then this is pretty standard fare for you and your lot isn't it. One day I would love to go to one of the links you or Belly posts and not find virtually the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

What you did was deceitful, malicious and shameful. But I know you will brush it off and give us more of the same. Damn this is getting tiresome.

Dear Poirot,

I entered this discussion in good faith.
However I'm now going to walk away from
it for obvious reasons.

Have a Happy New Year my dear, and see you on another
thread in 2013.

Belly,

Have now had cup of tea - and reread your post.

Show me the post to which you refer.

(I can't even remember it - which shows how seriously I took it, if it exists)

However, I resent you taking some blowhard's obviously baseless blather and using it to hang in the air above my head to score a few points.

On the one hand it's uproariously funny - but on the other, it's just a plain low tactic.

So I "didn't deny it".....do you waste your time denying every bit of ridiculous tripe that's thrown at you on this forum? Here's a hint - some people here who I end up talking to, I wouldn't even give the time of day in real life. I've also never denied that I'm Hercule Poirot (a point which has about the same veracity as your intimation in the other post).

What does that say about the nebulosity of communication on a forum like this?

Dear Constance,

You do have a lot going on don't you.

As you addressed me in your post I will reply.

You ask; “Who do you think are the real Jew haters?”.

I would have thought the answer was obvious but in case you really needed an answer the ones that cleansed Europe of the Jewish people by gassing them and burning their bodies on an industrial scale.

Who did you have in mind?

Moving on, unfortunately attacking the young does seems to be a trend for extremists of all colours whether it be Christian terrorists such as Anders Breivik slaughtering those at a youth camp, or Jewish West Bank settlers targeting a Palestinian girls school or planting bombs in playgrounds. Add these to your list and we have a pretty nasty picture of what extremism is capable of.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/3-guilty-in-plot-to-bomb-Arab-girls-Trial-of-2588057.php

However by mentioning these other incidents am I again inviting the charge of “You Pinkos just want mayhem and your hatred for Christians is very disturbing.”?

What on earth was that about? It was so inconsistent with the rest of your post it came across as a Tourettes moment. Let me know if you are after rational debate here or you have an affliction that would preclude decent discourse.

csteelee
'Christian terrorists such as Anders Breivik slaughtering those at a youth camp '

how desperate and deceitful can one me. No wonder Constance has got up your nose. I am sure Breivik.

http://harunyahya.com/en/works/21127/muslims-living-in-the-west
This link is not rude not in any way.
It could have come from any Christian Church, Catholic comes to mind.
It reminds me, but never had to, both good, bad, and evil exist within Islam.
Most important?
The unshakable difference, between us and them.
Show me the other creed that ever,EVER, wanted to introduce its own laws within our country.
Tell me, from what group of Migrants did horrible RAPES in such numbers come.
Show me the creed that massed in our streets holding SUCH HATE on signs,even held by children.
We are told, by the left and by our Governments to except, parts of our country are to be no go for us.
Poirot, you have seen again, IN PRINT IN THIS THREAD, my support for you, yet you send a slur!if my quoted post exists!
Girl know! you shout! more often than me, every time we enter threads that you disagree with me you seem to insist I shut up!
You never knew me, my thoughts are a day will come we all will see this country suffer.
Because? not just the extremes of Islam, but the extremes of a left that will ENTRENCH CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT FOR DECADES.
Average Australians will not be blinded to truth threats SOME including the Islamic thugs that stood out side that court or assaulted women at CRONULLA are folk we should except.
I now, in the eyes of some sin, I hope every Muslim in this country had a great Christmas and will have a good happy peaceful new year.
Watch csteele now rant!, I truly hope Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Muslim world are set free of terrorism and can live safe from murderers who from within the religion of love, want to stop that.

Belly,

I do not shout.

i have never insisted you shut up. Apparently if someone argues in opposition to your own views, you assume they want you to shut up.

Rant away - but I reserve the right to disagree.

and...

The "slur" is all yours, m'dear....thank you in fact, because that word describes exactly your intimation in that previous post.

The reason I'm still on about it was that it was a deliberate slur - a nebulous and deliberate attempt to slosh me with something of which I'm sure you know has no veracity.

Show me the post in question, Belly.

....................................................................

Lexi,

You are all style : )

Some here could take a few lessons in the art of "dignified response" from you.

Cheers

csteele,
Yes I under quoted him, he actually said female circumcission is the "divinely ordained right of a woman" under Islam.

Hell, this bloke is supposed to be against FGM, so what do the uneducated masses make of that? It is divine in Islam to cut a girls genetials, so the more we cut the more divine we, and she, will be.

One shudders to think what those supporting FGM tell muslims. No wonder muslims are confused. Some say it has nothing to do with Islam and now a cleric says it is a divine right in Islam.

So it is obvious that FGM is supported by Islam, dispite denials.

Consider yourself fortunate that I was able to find the link as i just saw it as another quote from a crazy muslim cleric and deleted it. You are doublely fortunate as I usually tell anyone that questions the accuracy of what I say, to do their own research. Must be the festive season.

By the way I am anxious to see the research relating to the rate of FGM in Aus, that you refered to. My info comes from many sourses but am always willing to learn more about FGM. I am one of the few that are concerned enough about the pain and suffering of little girls, to actaully presure governments to enforce the laws regarding FGM

csteele,
Did it occurr to you that this Islam cleric is putting Islam above our law?

He is giving his religous approval for others to break our law.

It is very difficult to combat an entrenched cultural practice and now this twit gives his religous approval.

Now that is ludicrous. No wonder FGM rates are increasing.

I have taken a breath.
Looked, after the charge csteele laid against me, back by poirot, at my posting style.
Am I promoting my own threads?
even I am not truly sure.
But what made me a well liked trade Unionist was my inability not to shout, to get indignant at twisters, of truth or the issues.
Funny, I have been considering my future here, because of the sheer inability of some on the right to think,debate, know truth from lies.
But my childhood friends, both in age and ability to think, the true left, are closest to getting rid of me.
I say very clearly, the wish to hide this subject under a blanket of past migration, forgets those past migrants, Aussie Greeks , all of them, in the same numbers as AUSTRALIANS, do not want a continuation of imported problems, of separatism inflicted on us by government and by MUSLIM MIGRANTS.
If not for this religion,its bad headed trouble makers, its insistence our streets look like an Arab town.
We would see much less huff and puff against economic refugees.
A warning above about the left, to some looks quite mad.
But know Labor ignores its Socialist platform, because Labor understands, only bad comes from extreme left, this country will never trust a true left party or one,closely linked, see Greens, with one.

Actually, Belly, having a couple of hours up my sleeve this avo, I had a bit of a trawl through the Islamic Riot thread.

It's a long thread, but towards the end I noted a mischievous post from SPQR - wholly tongue-in-cheek where he says:

"It helps if you know a little background on Poirot.

Poirot is a founding member of Wreck the Joint (a[sic] older and much badder version of "Destroying the Joint).
It's members believe they can wreck the joint (the joint being the West)...etc...."

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5377&page=0#147980

A few posts later you chime in with:

"SPQR any info on csteele?"

I believe that earlier in the thread you were surmising as to the reason why I supported csteele as I do - and encouraging others to have a trawl of his posting history.

It sort of takes the gloss off debating on this forum if people start to suspect covert associations and planned attacks when all one is doing is agreeing with other posters.

It seems you took SPQR's fooling around for serious knowledge about Poirot.....I can't believe that on a forum like this, one inhabited by adults, that you can't tell the difference between someone "having a go" and...well, whatever.

This isn't bloody ASIO, this is OLO...but I'm convinced your outlook is often paranoid looking for undercover pollies and activists behind every post. Sorry to disappoint you, Belly, but most of us are fairly middle-of-the-road people wanting to put our two cents worth out there - nothing more, nothing less.

Just wanted to add that the reason I didn't "deny it" was because it was so obviously a send up...a joke....anyone else reading it would have realised that.

(And when you use upper case letters to form words online, you are shouting - you do it regularly, Belly)

One problem with Christianity is that it makes very extreme claims, the most extreme being the claim that all non-Christians who do not believe in its gospel will spend an eternity in hell in everlasting torment, friends of the devil. To go around proclaiming such a thing to others, threatening them with a literal eternal never ending state of torment is perhaps the most extreme claim in the world. Many evangelical Christian preachers such as Billy Graham, who have the ear of Presidents hold this view. Much of the extreme religious action in the world is propagated by the United States and other so called Christian states. The inevitable consequence of religious bigotry is war. "Any man who believes God is on his side is a dangerous man." be him Muslim, be him Christian.

'One problem with Christianity is that it makes very extreme claims, the most extreme being the claim that all non-Christians who do not believe in its gospel will spend an eternity in hell in everlasting torment, friends of the devil. '

Nothing extreme about the truth that has been preached for around 2000 years. Murdering the unborn is what I call extreme.T hankfully the Son of God offers pardon to those who are humble themselves and repent.

More deaths have come from people who believe their is no god but themselves. Stalin, Mao, North Korea, China and the list goes on.

"Nothing extreme about the truth that has been preached for around 2000 years." Okay Runner if you want to hold those beliefs that's fine by me. Are you one of those Christians who believe the Earth is flat. Until recently Christians believed Hell was a physical place run by the Devil, now some Christians through their Nazi Pope, Ratzinger believe something else, which camp are you in.

Belly,

Looking back through your many posts on this thread (seems to be around 30 odd), I have to say that I've never seen on OLO a more sustained, bigoted and hate-filled diatribe.

It's actually quite staggering, the lengths to which you have gone to inspire division and antipathy toward Muslims.

I've always considered you a reasonably balanced bloke. Considering you started this thread to bag some Muslim for fueling division, it's somewhat extraordinary to find you flinging much more and worse from your OLO pulpit. With that in mind, I think it's a good thing that you aren't in any real position of influence.

You've attacked myself and csteele for speaking out on the side of fairness and tolerance, making out we're somehow supporters of odious practices and the degradation of Muslim women. Lexi was personally insulted big time by one of your chief supporters, and you didn't say a word.

In case you think I'm "trying to shut you up" - I'm not. I'm weary of your argument that any opposition from us is, in your eyes, an impingement on your free speech.

I won't be joining in any of your Muslim denouncing jamborees in future - and I'm now bowing out of this one.

I knew my thread and my posts would bring such insults from csteele and yes from poirot.
I know and knew long ago Lexi was increasingly unhappy with my views.
I even l know how to charm, come on we all do, people and win support.
But that more often than not asks me to become a MODERN MAN I REFUSE.
Refuse.
Refuse for popularity, or support lie, pretend to be some one other than who I am.
You see, unless you are blind, my deliberate heated posts.
Anger rode on my shoulder.
See MODERN MAN is secondary to? feminine wishes.
I FEAR T5HE MINORITY TRUE LEFT.
Driven mostly by females they harm my country and my party.
I fear the ability the few have, to make us the majority think we are lessor for? our opinions they do not share.
Many far better than me, could have crafted a much better set of thoughts than I have.
But the truth can not be hidden, my thoughts,washed ironed and hung out to dry, cleaned of my anger are mainstream ones.
I know Cronulla was after years of taunts and threats.
That it was no worse than the other sides actions.
I know we are hated, here in our land.
That migrants from all over the world think as we do.
I know we are sick of a difference being put to us and requests we fix it.
I have serviced Muslim workers youths in the early twenty,s,seen them defecate on the beds in motels paid for by the boss,to show us skippys .
I have visited a street in Granville Sydney ,sat in front of mythen home.
Thought back at each of 23 homes in that street,remembered every residents name.
And been ordered to leave, by these angry folk.
Walked to my childhood lolly shop, now a TAB, felt the hate in the eyes,the unspoken request leave!
Out side that shop a man, from this community was shot dead one night.
First on scene saw a Muslim man screaming why are we killing OUR BROTHERS
continued

I am reluctant to start another thread to talk of this, so here it is.
We inhabit, like it or not, the trash talking part of OLO.
Every bright lite that finds its way here leaves.
We are on a slippery slope.
But is leaving the answer, I could name a few here, mostly but not all newbys, who use insults as first option.
And cringe at the death of threads because of diversions.
Here? the left and others are trying to say some speech is forbidden.
That majority views do not count.
We let our selves be dominated by them.
Silence the voices chanting back at us, maybe too from minority's.
*our dead are in heaven yours are in hell*
I AM LABOR!
No way Labor dominated by these left folk can win, no way Labor not balanced by left such as Albanese and Faulkner deserve to win.
Liberals if dominated by the screeching right wingers here will if elected in time be forced both out of office and to reform.
What however do we not talk about? Do we not Challenge the rights religions have to tax free status.
Is it ok to lampoon the Catholic Church but not this one.
Can I both fear and loath the imposition of a never to be mixed culture .
Should we make a list of what the lost left and mad far right do not want us to talk about.
Laconic Australian men, at their side the best thing that ever happened to them great Aussie wives, both may in fact have the very roots of their being in other country,s, should not bend to insults from others or demands we stop having opinions of our own.

"I've always considered you (Belly) a reasonably balanced bloke" Poirot got that wrong, the old Conservative Labor types such as Belly, I find from talking to people when campaigning, are far more reactionary on social justice issues than the average young Liberal supporter. Within the Labor Party these conservatives act as a block to frustrate reform. Always prattling on about the likes of the 'silent majority' and the 'middle ground'. When they obtain power they tend to sell out the mass rather than introduce any real reforms.
With Belly its stuff like, "feminine wishes" = "I (Belly) FEAR THE MINORITY TRUE LEFT" = "I (Belly) fear the ability the few have" Do you fear the likes of Penny Wong in your own party, I know what you think of my friend Lee Rhiannon. I wonder what you will think of Cate Faehrmann when she hits the Senate in 2014! Another bloody feminist.

Dear Belly,

Let me make something clear.

There is a widespread, malignant thought form that
'other people are the problem.'

Liberals tend to blame Labor for our problems,
while Labor blames Liberals. The media blames almost
everyone, and almost everyone currently blames
immigrants. Some people are convinced homosexuals
are the problem, while others think single mothers
are the problem. Still others blame religion and so
on. The entire culture has become a blame session.

Yet a healthy, vital society is not one in which we
all agree. It's one in which those who disagree can
do so with respect for other people's opinions and
an appreciation of our shared humanity.

Without personal commitment to the attributes of fair
play and integrity, our country is in grave danger.
Malice and intolerance stalk our society, staking
claim to our minds and not one corner of our social
order is unaffected. This darkness is a significant
threat to our national good because it strikes at the
heart of democracy. Where people are not free to disagree,
there can be no democracy, since that is what democracy is.

We can disagree vehemently yet appropriately. Disagreement
must be respectful or the disrespect itself poisons us
more than either side's position in the argument ever could.

It is more important that we renew dignified and respectful
dialogue with those who do not agree with us than we
keep slavishly congratulating those who have the wisdom to see
things our way.

The tendency on people's parts to think that their way is
the right way and that people who disagree with them are
'bad,' simply has to change. We should not degenerate into
such a mass disrespect for the rights of others to hold
opinions different from our own. While I may not agree
with you at times Belly, I certainly feel that like
everyone else - you are entitled to your opinion. That
goes without saying. You must also recognise that other people
are also entitled to their opinions as well - and the right
to disagree with you.

I want to remind posters you should stand firm.
Be prepared to see the attempts to silence free speech,often wrapped in a niceness that hides its intent.
I glanced at but did not read Paul's waffles.
Giver Lexi the benefit of the doubt.
But poirit? csteele.
Have no doubt.
In answer to the bitter twisted charges against me, racism construction big threads by ? saying what I think!
Not able to be as nice as Lexi requires me, seeing a world they refuse to.
I leave this thread.
IF you have something to say then say it.
DO NOT LINK Paul to Labor, not any of these anti truth views.
After this wreckage, union and mac the knife, not policy,s they beat anything Abbott has.
Debate will not be required, a harsher Australia is on its way.
One uninterested in fair out comes.
I am not alone, this country *MUST DEBATE MUSLIM MIGRATION * DO WE WANT IT*
Difference and enclaves are we sponsoring both.
Is our Social security system a reason for this Migration.
Are those hate filled eyes out side the Lebanese Mosque in Lakember staring at women reporters a good or bad thing.
I retreat, not beaten not even silent.
Mark however LEXIS WORDS
And know I too am able to have opinions even unpleasant ones.
Am I now to bail out of every thread if it looks like too many posts are coming.
I hold deep contempt for the words of csteele and am unprepared to change.

Dear Belly,

You wrote; "Csteele even charged me, poirot too, with being here to build my ego".

Can I draw you attention to your post of Tuesday, 1 January 2013 7:31:08 AM.

In it you use the word ’I’ 14 times and ’my’ 10 times.

Mixed in were a few ’me’s and lots of references to ’us’ vs ’the other’.

Your posts are quite ego-centric. You turn everything into the personal and that is part of your problem.

In the Islamic Riot thread I invited runner to take a sabbatical with me but he declined the offer. However in the spirit of the undertaking I decided to only post when he posted. Unfortunately his prolific nature has meant he is well ahead and hardly a curbing influence.

So here is the deal Belly. Starting today I will only post on the OLO forum once for every post you do which contains the words ’I’ or ’me’. Would love to include the word ’Labour’ but won’t.

So you can shut the contemptible csteele up for a month just by ditching two these little words. Call it a Christmas present.

Belly, when Cate Faehrmann wins the NSW Senate seat, I for one will be pushing for Mehreen Faruqi to fill Cate's vacant seat in the NSW LC. Shock horror, oh no! a WOMAN, a MUSLIM, a person who is both intelligent and articulate. Such a person can't exist, doesn't fit the Belly mold.
Belly I'm not a defender of the Islamic religion, no more than I defend Christianity. I am interested in your knowledge of Islam and how many Muslims you actually know, would the answer be none. Your knowledge of their holy book The Koran (which you have mentioned in your posts, but most likely never read a word of) are you versed in the teaching of their holy man Mohammad, most likely not. In fact I think all your knowledge of Muslim's may be obtain from your own holy book, The Daily Telegraph. If I am wrong about you, and you are both well versed and knowledgeable of Muslim's and their faith, then please correct me.
p/s Belly never answers these sorts of questions.

csteel;e do as you wish, I/ME had left the thread but came back to answer you.
It proves nothing! to tell you what I truly think of you.
BUT this I will say! posters who are unsure about you should return to and read the thread,about that awful woman, convert to ISLAM WHO LIED ABOUT POLICE YOUR WORDS BLACKED YOU IN THAT THREAD.
YOUR THREAD CONDEMNING AMERICA for using drones too gave evidence to the real you.
You have won, I need a spell from OLO, IT IS MY VIEW YOU AND A FEW OTHERS CONTAMINATE IT.
You want freedom to express your views, but freedom too to stop me having the same rights.

Dear Belly,

No one is trying to stop you from having any rights,
and especially the right of the freedom of speech
that you're talking about. This is afterall a
discussion, and you should be prepared to hear
views that don't agree with yours. That doesn't mean
that someone is trying to stop you from having your
point of view. It means that people are merely
presenting their views on the subject - and if they
happen to disagree with your views - that should be
fair enough.

Belly, the vast majority of Australians are descendants
of immigrants, yet some people often act as though today's
immigrants don't deserve what they do, that they have
something to protect from their encroachment. It seems
paradoxical to me that people can brag about their
ancestors coming over by boats, yet condemn people
trying to do the same thing today.

Of course there are immigrants who abuse our system,
just as there are people born here who abuse our system.
However the truth is that the majority of today's
immigrants bring with them an infusion of the same
values that our ancestors personified. Most of them are
people willing to work hard for long hours to make a
better life for themselves and their families.

Our children don't stand to be corrputed by their values,
so much as their children stand to be corrupted by ours.

The scapegoating of today's immigrants makes a mockery of
what Australia stands for. It is a national immorality
when we collectively say no to compassion.

The history of the world proves that where the haves do not
share with the have-nots, the have-nots always rise up.
We who are the descendants of those who had not, yet who
rose up to new life for themselves and their children,
must now recognise our challenges and responsibilities.
We must do unto others as we would have others do unto us.
That is morality - that is integrity - that is what a fair
go is all about

Paul
, Okay Runner if you want to hold those beliefs that's fine by me. Are you one of those Christians who believe the Earth is flat '

Actually that belief is very similar as those who believe the impossible probably that the world happened by chance. Only those choosing total ignorance could believe that fairytale. Now that is fantasy. Also, as for popes they have told as many lies as the likes of Hitchens and Dawkins. I suggest you listen to the only Man who never lied. He certainly spoke of heaven and hell.

Poirot “It's actually quite staggering, the lengths to which you have gone to inspire division and antipathy toward Muslims.”

Belly doesn't have to do anything. The Muslims are doing a fine job of inspiring division and antipathy themselves.

“Some people are convinced homosexuals are the problem, while others think single mothers are the problem”

Oh cute comparison, Lexi.
Is Darlinghurst a no-go zone for heterosexuals?
Is the Single Mother Underground hijacking planes?

People's concerns about Muslims are based on very serious dangers, real destructive events.
“Blame” is very apt indeed.

“Where people are not free to disagree, there can be no democracy”

Maybe that's why it's so rare in the Islamic world.

“The tendency on people's parts to think that their way is the right way and that people who disagree with them are 'bad,' simply has to change.”

Hello, Muslim world again.

Everything you throw at “bigots” is present and accounted for in the Islamic world.
Yet you want to bring that world into ours.
And still expect our world to be liberal and democratic. Good luck!

Paul1405 “how many Muslims you actually know, would the answer be none.”

Oh, so a handful of local individuals is a suitable basis for judgment.
But not the handful of mass-murdering terrorists on the news.

“Your knowledge of their holy book The Koran... most likely never read a word of”

Have you? I have, and never want to repeat the experience!

Anyone who's read it (and isn't a convert) would be as horrified as they would by Mein Kampf.

This is no “love, forgiveness, go-with-the-flow-baby".
It is “hate speech”. It is “incitement to violence”. It is “Lower the globe!”

It all the ugly things “liberals” supposedly want to eradicate from the world.
Yet when it comes wrapped in the pretty packaging of “cultural diversity”, that's OK then!

Just dropping back onto this thread for a moment:

Belly,

Might I point out that you have done nothing "but" express your views up and down this thread.

You appear to think that you can express them, but it's not okay for others to post opposing argument - and if they do, then they are somehow "stopping your freedom to express your views".

You've spent around 40 posts on this thread alone "exercising your freedom to express your views". Amongst your generally anti-Muslim tirade, you've cast aspersions left right and centre in the direction of your fellow posters...and woe betide if someone actually pulls you up with a critique of your own views...apparently then that is "bitter and twisted".

So don't falsely claim you are being stopped from expressing yourself.....and you're still shouting at us.

I don't think I'm getting the hang of this collective punishment business…

Are there any limits or exemptions?

For example, do allegations against HSU executives mean that I'm supposed to now hate all union members? Or only union organisers past and present? Or only ones in health services? Or only all union members in New South Wales? But that might let off the hook, unionists in other states who are guilty of things I don't know about yet.

Of course, everyone who runs or works for a bank or other financial institution is guilty of some malfeasance – though not always guilty of making a profit. So they should be collectively punished. Even though the tellers at my local branch have always been really helpful… I hope they find my feeling sorry for them sufficient if they end up unemployed or deported.

I could go on naming groups – but you get the point.

Somehow, there are always exceptions… Except for the Irish who should be held collectively responsible and punished for James Joyce's Ulysses.

Shockadelic, my post was aimed at Belly, but thanks for your input. Belly is unlikely to reply. This is not about the good or bad aspects of Islam, I do not support any organised religion, Christian, Islamic whatever, they are all based on superstition and falsehoods, teaching ignorance to gullible people who swallow their hogwash. The world would be a better place if they all vanished, that's my view on the subject.
WmTrevor pretty well sums up what I think.
Yes my Muslim friends are important to me, Shockadelic you say "Oh, so a handful of local individuals is a suitable basis for judgment." Yes I would defend my friends right to be (good) Australians. I am not going to judge all by the actions of a "handful of mass-murdering terrorists on the news" not when I personally know good people who happen to be Muslim, as I know good people who happen to be Christians, as I know good people who happen to have brown eyes, what is the point?

Dear Shockadelic,

I'm responding to you because you've addressed me.
I hesitate in doing so because you sound like such
a troubled soul and I suspect that you don't really
want to enter into a discussion because your mind is
already made up. However I feel obliged to say
something nevertheless.

Attack is an easier response than trying to understand
any given issue. However attack thoughts do much more
harm to ourselves. Anger is one of fear's most potent
faces. You need to find an alternative way of conflict
resolution. To project your anger onto someone else in
the false belief that you will feel better is not something
you should keep on doing. Such behaviour offers only
temporary relief.

Try a different approach just once. Say to yourself -that
your judgements concerning Islam and Muslims stems from
what is newsworthy rather than what is typical.
Fundamentalism exists in all religions. However it does
not really reflect the mainstream communities.

Open up your mind - give it a go. Be the tolerant, compassionate
chap that I'm sure your family thinks you are!

The United States claim Muslim terrorists killed about 3,000 people in the 9/11 attacks, mostly US citizens. In retaliation for this barbaric act, the United States and its allies, including Australia, have kill 200,000 men women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan, mostly non combatants, mostly Muslim's. The vast majority of these 200,000 people never sanctioned or condoned the attacks of 9/11. By their own admission the US labeled the majority of 9/11 terrorist as being Saudi Arabians.
People do not need to read The Koran to hate us, unfortunately some of us do a good job of building hate in others without them needing to read some crappy old book.

Paul,
Interesting where you get your figures from.

In Iraq, the war against Heusian was over when his statue was pulled down and very little colatteral damage was caused at that point.

Remember how the people celebrated in the streets. That only lasted a week or two and then the Sunnis and the Shities started blowing each other up, trying to be top dog. They had every oppertunity to be democratic but their minor religous differences were more important to them, and still are.

The coalition forces were occupied mainly in keeping the two factions from killing each other, so it is incorrect to blame all those Iraqi deaths on the Yanks. It was the Iraqis own stupid actions.

Okay - too hard to keep away with comments like Banjo's.

Are you saying, Banjo, that once the statue came down, all was over?

Are you saying, that the sham with which Bush and his cronies invaded Iraq, letting loose who knows how much explosive power causing the direct deaths of thousands and, through sanctions and the almost total destruction of infrastructure, the deaths of tens of thousands more.

Causing tens of thousands, to flee into neighbouring countries. The total destabilisation that an invasion brings, and in this case, the short-sighted dumb-dumb Bush-brained scheme whereby no thought whatsoever was given to the vacuum that would be created in the wake of the invasion.

As has been pointed out many times before, the US invaded Iraq, not because it cared two hoots about delivering democracy to the people (You don't look after people by destroying their infrastructure and blowing their children to smithereens). It invaded so that it could wield unfettered influence over the chief resource of the region - oil.

There are any number of diabolical dictators in the world, who the US doesn't give two hoots about because they are not lording it over resources that the US requires.

Banjo,

And now the Yanks are gone, they're still killing each other off in the name of religion. It was reported yesterday that there is a "low level war" in Iraq now between Sunni and Shi-ites.

Libya isn't much better - there is still faction fighting and killing happening there too.

Egypt and Tunisia who also rose up against dictators - has it brought peace there? No way. So much for the Arab Spring.

Will the same thing happen if Assad is finally deposed? Of course it will - it's already started. Regardless of what the press reports, the opposition there are also carrying out atrocities against their own people.

All these countries claimed to want more freedom. Now they have it, and what do they do with it? Continue killing each other. These are the same people who are doing exactly what they had accused their leaders of doing - killing, torturing, and rape.
I believe there is more to come, as bordering countries like Yemen and Jordan are next in line.

Poirot,
Yes the war was over when the statue came down, the deaths after were caused by the Iraqis themselves. They had every oppertunity to be democratic but chose to fight each other. Stupid morons.

The yanks, and us, should not have gone into Iraq and the Yanks should have learned from that, these people do not have the where with all to operate a democracy. They are still blowing each other up in Iraq.

Afghan is the same. Got Bin Laden so pull out and leave them to it. The people of Lybia are no better off now since NATO helped another lot to take over. Egypt is no better and in Syria the rebels seem to be no better than the current dictator.

Obviously these people do not have enough brains to govern fairl/properly, they need a strong dictator or regime to keep them in order. Brutality seems to be all they understand.

Leave them be, they are mainly killing their own, why should we interfer. If they invade another country then, maybe, we take sides. Anyone that embraces Islam can't have much between their ears.

Can you ever imagine a peaceful transition of governments there, like we have had when changing from one party in power to the other

Poirot,

Both the Bushes have been responsible for Iraq, and I think Bush senior only cared about protecting his [ not so much America's] interests in Iraq, as his family had close financial ties with the Saudis through joint oil ventures.

Bush junior was an idiot who certainly gained power only through his father's influence. I don't know yet how to post links, but there are some very interesting photos on YouTube showing Junior in some of his most revealing moments while he was President.

The american forces who were ordered into the war in Iraq followed orders issued by Bush. To be sent there without knowledge of the language, religious differences, and tribal differences, was akin to sending lambs to slaughter.

The Arab muslim world use the term the Great Satan to describe America, and their hatred is directed against all Americans as a result.

In any war armed forces obey orders whether good or bad. This is their duty whether they agree or disagree with the orders handed down by their leaders. To tar a whole nation with being warmongers is unfair to all American people, when it is their leaders who are responsible. The people carry the burden financially, but have no say in how their tax money is spent.

Banjo,

You might recall that in the early fifties, Iran had a democratically elected government.....guess who aided and abetted the overthrow of it?

You won't be surprised to learn that it was Britain and the US....Oh, and they installed their own dictator puppet in the Shah.

Why did they do that, you may ask?

They did that because it looked like the Iranians were about to do the unthinkable - to legislate for a "fair" share off the profits from their major resource - oil.

Now, we can't have that, can we...those Islamic types always need to be shown the way by the superior West, usually with help of sanctions and missiles.

The US was happily dealing with Saddam during the early eighties, even when it learned that he was gassing the Iranians, they turned a blind eye.

And why do you think the Iraqi's would balk at "democracy" delivered by warhead - with the almost total destruction of that country's "advanced" infrastructure and the slaughter of thousands of innocents?

worldwatcher,

I am "not" tarring the "whole" American nation with being warmongers.

Can't someone criticise successive American administrations (being the 20th century's enduring superpower) without others assuming I somehow despise Americans/Westerners in general?

My son-in-law is American...he's a lovely level-headed man, representative of many many Americans.

My beef is with warmongering administrations...and their faux altruism that is serially passed off as "delivering democracy" via slaughter and destabilisation.

...especially when it is delivered under the auspices of a "president" who would be hard-pushed to run a hotdog stand.

Unbelievable!.....(although perhaps I "misunderestimate him" ")

WmTrevor “collective punishment”

Who's being “punished”?
It's common sense *preventative* measures.
Muslims are “punished” by living in their own homelands? Well then, maybe they need to improve their own societies.

Paul1405, why is it the atheists (I presume you are one with your “hogwash” comment) on OLO are the frontline troops for Muslims? It's bizarre!
If religion is such nonsense, why encourage it?
Virtually the only religions growing in Australia are those introduced by Asians.

“What is the point?”
Not that there are “good” people.

Point: They are not us and don't want to be us, and we never wanted them.
This demographic change was imposed on us.

We are entitled to our own ethnicity, history, culture, homeland (yes, it's *our* homeland now).
And it's being destroyed, ever so gradually, but destroyed nevertheless.

If this happened to any people who aren't White, you'd screech in horror.
When it's Whites, whatever, shrug.
It is indefensible.

Lexi, thanks for the lesson in anger management or whatever it was.

“However it does not really reflect the mainstream communities.”

I don't really care for “mainstream” alien cultures either.
Islam has no historical relationship to our civilisation, other than as an invader/overlord.
No thanks. I want my bohemian-decadent liberty.
I want a society and people I can understand and recognise, even if I'm an “outsider”.
I have nowhere else to go!

If my mind was any more open, my brain would fall out of my skull.
It is not open to bull though, in religion or politics.

Dear Shockadelic,

You're welcome!

Don't give up. You'll get there if you really try.

Good Luck!

Poirot,

You took my general comment personally, which wasn't my intention. I apologise for not being more careful with my wording.

You clarified what I should have said by using the term warmongering administrations. And in this you are quite correct.

However, when referring to Americans, many people think quite incorrectly that they support their leader's decision, and as the 3 american members of my family try to explain to people, most americans are equally against their administrations committing their own people to war, and realise the cost to themselves of the U.S. now being the only world superpower.

Afghanistan proved to the Russians[ administration] that it could not win the war it ininiated there.

America and it's allies took a beating in Vietnam and Afghanistan, and we've lost some of our valuable youth there too. Such a waste of young lives. And what has it achieved apart from that?

An analogy would be a boxing match. Even the socalled winners are really losers too. As well as hurting their opponent, they themselves are hurt in the process. Only difference is - on a one to one basis there is no 'collateral damage'.

worldwatcher,

Yes, apologies for taking it personally - thanks for explaining.

It's been a long and somewhat spiteful thread, left me a bit touchy.

Lexi, I'm already there.
I'm just waiting for the rest of you to catch up.

Dear Shockadelic,

No, you're not there yet. You know little about
other ways of life and you don't see your own norms
and values objectively. This can have many
undesirable effects. It can cause hostility and
conflict between groups and it can make people
such as yourself unwilling to see the need for
changes in their own culture.

Once we can learn to better understand and remove
the blinkers of our own culture when we are
looking at another we just may lose a certain
self-righteousness about our own assumptions, and
we may even learn something more about our own culture
as well.

http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/concepts/islamic-culture/14661-innocence-of-muslims-and-the-wests-aggression-towards-islam-a-history-of-bigotry-vilification-and-slander
Just visiting.
My sabbatical continues.
Posting heavy stuff, not content but length.
To show from within this sect how we are thought of.
Shockadelic you best see my view.
Let me however rebut first Lexi.
From very fist post[ trying to avoid fitting csteeles view of this poster] it has been made very clear, this poster wants no comparison to what he believes is a totally different and successful event.
All migration post ww2 bar Muslim migration.
Being flogged with anon existent dead cat, xenophobia towards all, is at best, a tactic.
I note to, and have it under consider ration, post of less than average ability has welcomed my absence.
Harsh and maybe something free speech will not let us fix, but that individual comes only to insult.
Good by to poirot,valuing truth it is not possible to ignore attempts to silence or at least muffle views this poster holds, csteele knows it is the view of this author, he/she confronts western views, truth is to be rebutted and any concerns about these migrants silenced, no way [I] see did it can respect such a person..
Last? a question to Paul, a person of the very left.
If Sir, as is your view, no God exists, *why must we change*
to fit in with the only group of *Migrants demanding by their words and actions we do*.
I thank all posters and a special thanks for those who will not be silenced by the voices of unreason.
Those understand wrongs exist on both sides but that we Australians need no lectures from those who will not see the faults and threats we face.

Dear Belly,

I'd like to respond to your last post
but I'm afraid I don't understand what it
is that you're trying to say. You mention my
name, but I can't make any sense out of what
follows.

Please explain.

Belly, even though as per your usual form, when a question(s) is posted to you, you simply ignore it, I can only assume it is your ignorance of the subject which prevents you from answering.
As for your question to me. You are correct, I am an atheist, yes from where you sit, somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan, you would see me as "a person of the very left." My view of migration is Australia has it right, we do not discriminate on the grounds of race or religion. I do not believe there is any evidence that Muslims in our society, on mass, have an unbridled hatred for the rest of us. Granted, by custom, by language, and by tradition many migrants today are somewhat different to the Southern European and British migrants who arrived post WWII. Prior to WWII Australia's migration was almost exclusively people of 'British stock'. European and British migrants experienced discrimination from native born Australians "W#gs have got all the house" we had lots of abuse to throw at Southern Europeans as we did have for "winging Poms". Given time you will find migrants, if not the the immigrant them self, certainly their children and even more so their grandchildren will fit into our multicultural society. Our society, like any other society, will undergo change over time, with external and internal influences, societies change, this is inevitable. No matter how much an old conservative like yourself tries to resist social change, change is inevitable. I am optimistic that migrants in the long term will enrich our society. Then again Belly, you can runaway to America and join the Amish, although no matter how much the old conservative Amish try it seems their society is changing also.

Belly,

"Good by to poirot, valuing truth it is not possible to ignore attempts to silence or at least muffle views this poster holds."

I assume what you're actually trying to say is that because I critiqued your views on this thread,that I'm trying to silence or muffle you....yes?

Well, if you didn't know - this is a forum of discussion and debate. It seems to me that you had a pretty good run getting your point of view out there. Where, Belly were you silenced? Your posts are in the majority on this thread.

What you're having is nothing but a plonker because I criticised your views. You apparently reserve the right to spit out whatever you like regarding your views..more to the point you run a handy line in denigrating your fellow posters with your boundless suspicions...and apparently if anything is posted registering opposition to your remarks it's trying to shut you down.

Rubbish!

Poirot, according to Belly, his words, I am a Soviet loving naked Morris Dancer. If you play the clip below, that's me with back to camera. It was a cold day so we kept our cloths on. LOL. Imagine a naked Joe Starlin doing the Watusi that's me
As I posted elsewhere I have come across lots of Belly's over the years, both as a member of the ALP and The Greens and as a union rep, years ago. People who believe their views are some how 'socialistic' in some form, but when you question them, you find they are dyed in wool conservatives.
p/s Belly's over 60 I'm not much younger that him about 5 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZjLATAUwao

http://www.danielpipes.org/232/muslims-in-the-west-can-conflict-be-averted
Lexi, Poirot, when I agreed with you, or supported you, no difficulty was found in understanding.
Let the long, but interesting, link speak for me.
I would hope, without confidence, you will understand this, my views are freely targeted, yours too need to be reviewed.

Paul, if in any future posting I talk only to my self so be it.
Your strident views are not shared by many, I will no longer read yours.
A some what sorry, note this forum is less attractive than it once was, and can be.
And intend posting only occasionally.
Christians, non believers, may I ask why are we fighting.
And answer, this cult is trying to make my country change to fit its wants and wishes while mine are the carpet they walk on.
csteele has found other riders for that anti western hobby horse, never me.

Dear Belly,

It's not surprising that you would choose a link
by Daniel Pipes, who's made a career out of
his publications of "Militant Islam." A
man who's point of view, putting it poltely
is anything but objective.

And you tell us that the link represents your
thinking on the subject.

As we've stated on this forum to you - you are
entitled to your opinion. We are entitled to
disagree with you and Mr Pipes.

Belly,

What Lexi said.

Paul1405, aren't the Amish included in your multicultural loveland?
Oh forgot, they're White. Doesn't count.

Lexi “No, you're not there yet.”

You are suffering from a common malady.
You think an “open mind” means perpetual neutrality.
When you're young you gather information and experience.
But then you have to choose, decide, judge.
You can't be 22 forever.

"You know little about other ways of life"

You know nothing of what I know.
I *know* that 3 out of 4 new immigrants come from cultures either completely unrelated to ours, or so remotely related it's redundant (Indic/Iranian, went their separate ways from us around 6000 years ago).

I don't *need* to know about “other” ways.
I'm not the one moving into another country.

"It can cause hostility and conflict between groups"

Any differences between peoples can cause conflict.
That's precisely the reason we should be more careful about immigration.

What "conflict" can exist with people that aren't here?
You are bringing alien peoples and cultures *into* Australia.

People like *you* are paving the way for conflicts that would otherwise never occur!

When in history did Turks ever live with Vietnamese?
Or Zulus with Finns?
Or Samoans with Bengalis?
*Never*!

Until people like *you* brought them all together.
If conflict results from this ridiculous experiment, it's *your* fault.

"people such as yourself unwilling to see the need for changes in their own culture."

Our society *was* changing.
The old "norms" (which you falsely presume I support) were dwindling away.
We were, in the West, on the verge of being truly "modern", truly "liberal".
After centuries of gut-wrenching stepping stones.

And then, just at the break of dawn....
We open the floodgates to peoples with virtually *no* experience with modernity, liberalism, secularism or democracy.

That's not "progress". That's going backwards.

*You* are taking us back to the 50s.
The 1450s!

Thanks a bunch!

In melodramatic soap opera voice: You ruined everything!

Dear Shockadelic,

What I'm advocating is not neutrality - but
tolerance, compassion, and understanding.
I do not see minority cultures as alien and as
a threat to social cohesion. I see them as a
core part of our national identity.

I guess that's where we differ.

As for not knowing you. Of course I don't
know you, the same as you don't know me.
We can only judge each other from our posts
and make assumptions based on them.
And of course each of us will be guilty of
some measure of bias - the tendency, often
unconscious, to interpret things according to
our own values and experiences. What our past
experience has prepared us to see and by what we
consciously or unconsciously want to see.

For me this thread has now run its course.
See you on another thread.

cont'd ...

BTW:

You can't change the past, but you can ruin
the present, by worrying about the future.

Paul1405, aren't the Amish included in your multicultural loveland?
Oh forgot, they're White. Doesn't count.
Shockadelic, how do you get so much so wrong. as I have made clear to you and others before religion or race, any reference to either should have no bearing on a persons eligibility to migrate to Australia, as much as I welcome Black Muslims to this land I would equally welcome White Amish. You on the other hand would have a long list of exclusions based on race, religion and a host of other criteria. Not that you are a bigoted racists, far from it, you like Belly and others only have Australia's interests at heart.
Come Brother Shock, join us, lets us break bread together, cast asunder the anger within, let us find true love and humanity, peace and happiness awaits you Brother. Cast evil asunder, let us all rejoice as we welcome Brother Shock back into the fold.

Shocka you try but closed minds and eyes are not receptive.
In time, next childish cartoons or film?
We will again see filth on our streets.
Truth can be damaging but in the end remains true.
What group of past migrants EVER did such as the Sydney staged riot.
And time and again, the attempt to use past migrations as part of this debate falls flat.
ONE
those migrants both integrated and kept their own culture.TWO
UNAVOIDABLE truth is they word for word mirror our concerns about the intrusion of Islam.
Paul reminds us, and is assisted in doing so, the true left are in control only because PC assists them.

Them and Us, or is it me?

As everyone knows, the world is divided into
two categories:
Other People and Us.

Other people have closed minds

Other people put filth on our streets

Other people stage riots

Other people use illogical arguments

Other people don't fit into our society

Other people are the problem

Sounds hypocritical? Let's face it we're the only
arbiters of Truth and Life is only tolerable when
we can look down on someone else.

'Sounds hypocritical? Let's face it we're the only
arbiters of Truth and Life is only tolerable when
we can look down on someone else. '

Well Lexi when your grand daughters get called sluts when they walk down streets in Sydney because they don't headware or are refused employement or education because they are female I take it you won't be quick to complain. We certainly can't judge can we? No good then saying all we need is more money and more education about how peaceful the followers of the prophet are. The followers of the prophet would not value your opinion as a woman anyway.

Mornin' Lexi,

It seems the likes of you and I have been diagnosed as having "closed minds and eyes - and we're apparently "not receptive"...

Well I for one own up to "not being receptive" to bigotry and the purpose-driven rhetoric of division.

So, yes, those that engage in the above can do so till the cows come home. On a relatively obscure forum in the scheme of the broader community, one can absorb such views and speak in opposition to them.

I don't think they'd last ten minutes in the MSM.

Dear runner,

I have grandsons whose success will depend
entirely on their own abilities to work hard
and achieve. And, like their parents, I have
no doubt whatsoever that they will be instruments
of inspiration to their children, as their parents
were to them.

Hope this clarifies things for you

Dear Poirot,

You're absolutely right!

I feel that we've wasted enough time on this thread.

Better to simply move on.

By staying - and arguing, you run the risk of being
brought down to their level.

Lets end the thread here.
Lexi that always nice lady has lost me.
Poirot too, no more for me.
Yes I pushed too hard.
But men must sometimes.
It in the end is us who die on the front line in wars.
Yet too it is us who in past wars received the white feather of cowardice, sent by women.
No easy task, talking of the sins of SOME followers of a God that never existed.
As our country faces just the very beginning of its problems, with SOME of this creeds Children.
We too face a very real danger here you have seen it, an insistence we do not speak of the concerns we truly hold.
Yesterday, forgive spelling, I heard again of the Horror Salman Rushdie endured.
And having never read his book, how inoffensive it was.
Real Aussies, from what ever racial background, should defend the right to say what you think.
Cartoons, films all done by a few and RIOTS WORLD WIDE?
Sickening daily murders of Muslims by Muslims in the name of a God that never existed?
Maybe it is me? but we must insist on not becoming victims of such.

What an indictment of failure of Multiculturalism this thread has turned.

Belly –rather bravely, I thought—started this thread to criticize a “fatwa” which appeared on the Lebanese Muslim Association Facebook. That fatwa instructed the faithful that they should NOT exchange Christmas greetings with NON-Muslims aka infidels, kafirs, or the unclean. And for his good neighborly concern Belly got shouted-down and boxed around the ears.

Two things are worthy of note: The first is this sort of ruling is not out of character for Islam. The Taliban after having blown-up the Buddha’s were well down the road to making their Hindi minority wear star patches on their clothing to set them apart from the believers—and before you snort: “Ah! but we know the Taliban are extremists” , they (as did Hitler!) borrowed it from “enlightened”, golden era Islamic Baghdad. The second is that as pointed out earlier –though, Poirot is still even at this late stage in denial – the author of Facebook fatwa could not have been just anyone, since only someone with authority would have had the access to their Facebook.

But an even more damning are the maneuverings of the Multicultural defence aka Poirot, Paul 1405 & Lexi.
They were able to exquisitely twist things so that those who criticized the fatwa where presented as the real villains.

This is Poirot sermonizing about it: <<Looking back through your many posts on this thread (seems to be around 30 odd), I have to say that I've never seen on OLO a more sustained, bigoted and hate-filled diatribe>> .

And this is “golden hearted” Lexi: <<What I'm advocating is not neutrality – but tolerance, compassion, and understanding>>.

Whoa-up a minute, whose Facebook did the fatwa appear on?
From the sounds of that it can only have been Belly’s!

But Lexi did get it right in the end: <<As everyone knows, the world is divided into two categories:
Other People and Us.>>
Though her terminology is a little off.
There are indeed TWO categories-but they are: “true believers” and “infidels”.
Though, like all advocates of Multiculturalism, Lexi wasn't to know that.

>>the world is divided into two categories<<

The world is divided in 10 categories: those who understand binary and those who don't.

Cheers,

Tony

SPQR,

I'll direct you to WMTrevor's comment earlier - regarding bagging the collective for the actions of some.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5559&page=0#152412

"Whoa up a minute, whose Facebook did the Fatwa appear on?"

The mosque in question disassociated itself from this person's actions....so "Whoa" yourself. Once the disassociation was highlighted and duly noted, it apparently made "no" difference to Belly and co. here. It was only ever a device to launch their diatribe.

(Did you see what a mash-up Belly made of your reference to Poirot and "Wreck the Joint"?.....)

And, Belly, like I said, you're are welcome to bang on until the cows come home....what you can't handle are opposing views.

Dear SPQR,

You neglected to mention that the so called "fatwa"
that Belly brought up -
did not represent the mainstream Muslims in our
communities and that they actually hired sky-writers
to write Christmas messages above that particular
mosque in Lakemba. The so called "fatwa" was absolutely
condemned by the mainstream Muslim communities.

But, never let facts get in the way of a "good argument."

'Looking back through your many posts on this thread (seems to be around 30 odd), I have to say that I've never seen on OLO a more sustained, bigoted and hate-filled diatribe '

yep demonise those who disagree. I am sure that is learn't among the sisterhood and latte sippers. Must be one of the first criteria for a job in determing immigration. I mean we could not disagree with UN research could we? Unfortunately in England they did the same thing calling and labelling those who warned of ghettos and divisions as being the bigotted and racist ones. Now there are no go areas for white or western women. And lets not forget France, Germany, the Dutch and anywhere else Islam establishes itself. Funny those who are so bent on saving culture despise Western culture so much.

Dear SPQR,

Talking about "true believers" and "infidels"?

If by "true-believers" you mean people like runner
who gets to call others by all sorts of names
and makes judgements about them while at the same
time when people come right back at him with
derogatory terms he's highly offended. Dear me!
What's good for one - should surely be good
for the other.

Dear Belly,

If I've lost you simply by disagreeing with your
point of view - then it's no big loss. You're
not the man I thought you were.

runner,

"yep demonise those who disagree.."

That would have to be the most hypocritical comment I've ever read on this forum.

You, runner, have made a veritable career out of demonising those on OLO who disagree with you.

With you it's a non-stop activity of judgement and name-calling. You attribute vices to your opponents as if they're going out of fashion.

And that's aside from the fact that I've yet to glean any real Christian ethos in any of your judgmental blatherings.

Poirot

there u go again

Yes, runner...I wonder why immigrants congregate in ghettos and such like.

Perhaps it's got something to do with the reception they get from the natives.

I mean, I can imagine that perusing this thread would warm the cockles of any Muslim's heart.

You blokes accuse those who you reject with doing exactly what you're doing now....that's your complaint isn't it? - that Muslim's want to stick with their own kind and they engage in hate-speak.

Tell me the difference?

Belly seems to think that because he is a citizen of this country, that he can engage in the sort of rhetoric he condemns in migrants. My take is if a person has an argument, then that argument should rest on principle. Either hate speech and bigotry is wrong in a socially civilised society, or it's not. It shouldn't depend on whether you're a citizen or not.

Belly as I pointed out to you I am not here to defend religions. I am an atheist who see's all religions for what they are, rubbishy superstition. Many religions claim to have large numbers of devotees, however the vast majority of devotees are simple followers, sheep. A small number of devotees are leaders or zealots.
Belly being a man of statistics, here is some for you. In a World population of 7B, 2.3B claim they are Christian, 1.5B claim they are Muslim. According to the census Australia had a population of 21.5M of which 13M (61%) claimed to be Christian, 1.5M (7%) Non-Christian of which 480,000 (2,2%) claim Muslim.
Your whole line of argument, as I see it, is the world is full of bad people, who do, and who plan to commit terrible atrocities against their fellow man, many such people claim to be acting in the name of the Islamic faith, Muslims, agreed. But I would like to know of the 1.5B Muslims in the World how many are actually radical zealots ready to die for Allah. I suspect once you take away the benign follows and the moderate leaders and devotee, the radicals may not be that large a number, but they are there and they are dangerous people. I must agree Islam has it share of radicals as does Christianity and many other religions.
I'm sure Australia like the United States and other countries is not immune from religious lunatics. Belly you target Australia's 480,000 Muslims, you try and tar them all with the same brush. As dangerous as religions can be, it is far more dangerous to single out any group in society because they are different in some way, or because a small number act in a anti social or criminal way. The way the Nazis targeted the Jews, they started their anti Jewish campaign as a "moderate necessity" you are prepared to do the same to Australia's Islamic community, no matter how you wish to pretty it up, or paint it as necessary, there are so many similarities, its not funny.

SPQR thanks but your task is unachievable.
You are aware of my politics and I of yours.
Yet my fight against both right wing power brokers, thieves and criminals,in the ALP has another target.
Unpleasant as it is I must distance my party from some thing it played a roll in, inflicting this trouble on us.
Howard had friends in the ALP.
Failing to understand this country thinks for its self, even candidates ALP ones, and female, undermined the party mid election.
By screaming for a fair go for?
Boat people.
Howard like right now, minority's so very small go close to crippling my party, for generations.
In being the Nasty xenophobe I am, along with about 75% of this country,s people I sin.
I wounder why SOME so clearly support that creed, and as easily turn away from the victims.
A question for level headed folk, how can the west ever live in peace with this creed.
SPQR fear not, if I leave it will not be because I am driven out, one of the gang of three, actually abused me because my threads went on too long?
I have no fear of confrontation.
But fear till death those who see only one side.

Poirot & co appear to believe that one day after Friday prayers the good staff at the abovementioned association were peacefully websurfing when they suddenly came upon the offending fatwa. Being totally flummoxed by the unexpected finding; nothing in their holy books had ever prepared them for such sentiments; no where during their training at Al-Azhar (Egypt) had they experienced such chauvinism! They straight away had it stricken from their Facebook,had the author disciplined, and ordered a halal skywriter to cover the sky in: “Merry Xmas to all” wishes.

But there is another possibility, which goes: that it was not until the infidel media started making a noise that they had it removed.

And cynical old me can’t help but wonder – WHAT IF?
What if the infidel media only represented a minority
--like say, the Copts of Egypt
--the Bahai in Iran
--the animists in Sudan
Would the association’s response had been as sympathetic,tolerant...and NEW AGE?

Would the sky writer still have been writing “Merry Xmas to all” Or, would he have written: “God is great --Stuff all infidels”
________________________________________________________________

Belly,

As you said we are part of a number of issues—though not as many as you think.
But I can always rely on you to take a principled stand—and defend Australia’s interests.
I feel a little guilty that I avoided returning to this thread for a long time, and let you to carry the can-- apologies for that.

A "..principled stand...".

That's hilarious.

Do you actually know what the word principle means, SPQR?

In this case Belly is applying one rule for himself and one for Muslims.

Yes, we condemn the likes of divisive hate-speak from wherever it emanates...but...but...Belly reckon's that three quarters of Aussies think Muslims shouldn't be here, so then it's okay for him to indulge in that which he condemns in Muslims et al.

That's not arguing on principle - that's setting one rule for yourself and one for the others.

Belly,

"...gang of three..."

Rather melodramatic, don't you think? You sure get tetchy when someone opposes your views, don't you.

Perhaps you'd care to link to the post where one of the "gang of three" abused you because your threads went on too long.

...because I think you're twisting the meaning there to suit your stance.

Link please....

Lexi “I do not see minority cultures as alien”

Then you know nothing of history, anthropology, linguistics.
Even a rudimentary knowledge would show some cultures are related and some are not.
“Alien” just means unrelated.
This is the case with the natural world too.
Are cane toads alien, or just a “minority” species we should show tolerance and compassion for?

“and as a threat to social cohesion.”

What does it take? A mushroom cloud over Lucas Heights?
No doubt you'd still be making excuses and trying to weasel out of any decisive action.

Watch the news. It will only get worse the longer this goes on.
How many of your nonthreatening minorities are committing crimes already (against Australians, and *other minorities*)?

The police and media almost *never* reveal ethnicity.

You don't hear “Turkish immigrant, 36 murders Korean immigrant, 52 in car park”.
You only hear “Man, 36 murders man, 52 in car park”.

“I see them as a core part of our national identity.”

Well, if takeaway food is "core"...

How can something so peripheral and new be “core” to a nation?

Wasn't core at Lambing Flat, wasn't core during the many, many years of “White Australia” policy.
No, it's core to *your contemporary ideology*. Big difference.

“You can't change the past [not trying to], but you can ruin the present, by worrying about the future”

Or ruin the future by not worrying about the present.

“the world is divided into two categories: Other People and Us.”

Damn right. So can “us” include everyone?
Realistically, not in some wishful thinking fairytale, but *real* world, real life.

I don't think so. There are *thousands* of cultures!
You could have a very broad definition, but not *everything*.

Paul1405 “You on the other hand would have a long list of exclusions based on race, religion and a host of other criteria”

Ah no, I would have a face-recognition software database, based on scans of Australian-born citizens.

Firstly, 10% of scans that don't closely match the typical features of the full original database would be removed, then the database recalculated until half the original scans are deleted.

You are left with the half that most accurately and typically represents the ethnic morphology of “Australians”.

Immigrant applicants are compared to the final database.
Close match? Come on down!

Less than 50% match? Wah-wah-wah-waaah (that's game show noise for “you lose”. Yes, a button on the counter will make that noise).

And no, the database has no function regarding the existing population.
Some photos are deleted, not people.
Nobody will even know if they're included.

“Cast evil asunder”

I am. The incremental genocide of White people is evil.

I think I should rename Belly, 'Mr. Majority', According to our Mr, Majority, such and such percent agree with me, Mr. Majority. Its always the majority. It reads like this, 93.48% agree with me, 96.37% think like me, 105.43% think I'm right. Most of the fair and reasonable opinion of Mr. Majority must be garnered from the likes of the Piers Akerman column in Murdicks fish wrapper, The Daily Telecrap, where else can you always count on getting the majority opinion.
Then there is the beloved Labor Party. How I love my dearest and greatest Labor Party, I would do anything for my dearest beloved Labor Party. BUT! I don't like Gillard, or that Swan, and I can't stand Penny Wong, get rid of Cammeron, etc etc, and from one so devoted to the Labor Party. Mr. Majority the best thing you could do is give the ALP the flick, and based on your opinions posted here join the Australia First Party where Jim Saleam can welcome you with open arms. Your opinions will certainly be in the majority down there, mostly likely bump into a few of your buddies from OLO as well.

Shockadelic,

When you instigate your "Final Solution" will there be "resettlement in the east"? Will your software be able to determine Aryan's from the sub-humans.

Stalin called them USEFUL IDIOTS.

Political Correctness is a Communist invention.

'Yes, runner...I wonder why immigrants congregate in ghettos and such like '

Sorry to burst your boil Poirot however I have noticed in churches that there are many immigrants from Africa, Asia, the Middle East etc etc. Most have jobs or at least want jobs. They share common values and dreams. They also have no problem mixing with secular people. My closet friends are of a different colour and background. On the other hand I have met some from places like Algeria who see white woman as their 3rd wife and a source of income. You can't seem to get it that Islam isn't a race. Its founder was not a good role model so it followers do the same. Most Muslims who don't follow Mohammed are generally very noce people.

You might detest my beliefs but they don't affect your life on the whole. The aim of Islam is to do so.

'You blokes accuse those who you reject with doing exactly what you're doing now....that's your complaint isn't it? - that Muslim's want to stick with their own kind and they engage in hate-speak.'

Give us a break Poirot. To label those pointing out truth as hate speach is a desperate measure to silence. If all Islamic immigrants want to do is to use 'hate' speach I doubt many would have an issue with that. Those blown up at Bali certainly would not of minded 'hate'speach or those killed in 9/11. 'Hate speach' as such is usually a term given by the left who want free speach stopped even though generally they are the 'best' at so called hate speach. I have been called a 'white c'many times and yet I would not dream of calling someone a black *. Usually the hate speach has come from uneducated people who have been brainwashed by academia into believing that everyone owes them a living.

Belly, I and many other posters don't share much in common but it is a pathetic attempt to demonise calling our opinions 'hate speach'. Funny how you often accuse me of labelling people. I think the 3 fingers are pointing straight back at you.

runner,

"You can't seem to get that Islam isn't a race..."

Well yes I do.

"....Most Muslims who don't follow Mohammad are generally noce people."

You've got me a bit confused there, runner.....are you saying that there are "Muslims" who don't testify that Mohammad is the messenger of God?

You know very well that I don't "detest your beliefs" - ie, Christianity. However, I think it's about time you stopped hiding behind that line. You seem to think you can be as spiteful as you like around here - and when someone has a go at you, you pull out the old " You despise my beliefs/Christianity" routine.

Sorry to be the one to break the news, but in your case it's not Christianity people criticise - it's "your" attitude and "your" penchant to paste your opponents with whichever vice pops into your mind when you post.

Btw, just read your last post.....if I want to label it hate-speech, I will, whether it's from you, Belly or a Muslim, a Jew or a Christian or anybody. Any rhetoric that is designed to be divisive and/or to inflame feelings of antipathy in the community, construes as hate-speech.

And why would you paste all Muslims with the Bali and 9/11 atrocities - anymore than you'd blame all Christians for the US slaughtering thousands in Iraq?

.........................................

Hey there, Constance,

Back again with your latest compliment.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

Ho hum.....