I seems we are to get only limited tax reform.
Hung Parliament and an impending election has it stalled.
We are partly to blame, our hip pocket nerve lets us panic at the very thought and forces politicians to bend.
GST was to kill our economy, remember? it first was ALP policy then Howard despite his never ever again, got it passed.
Just maybe recent advice from both sides, to reconsider it are worth a look.
We know, almost all of us, we need reform.
I think fear of the impacts on the true working poor, and non working poor, lets us not look for solutions.
If GST went up, to a level high enough to swallow all those niggledy tax,s getting in the way of every one.
And if it covered all Goods and Services, we could end PAYE tax for those on minimum wage say $40.000 a year, to assist those most in need.
To further help in reform we need to see an end to offshore tax havens and the ability of the rich to avoid tax.

A valid point Belly? In principle, I support the idea of taxing consuption rather than production.
However, I must declare that I have a vested interest in this area and am extremely worried about the prospect of broadening the base of the GST to cover all areas.
I have been involved in horticulture for many years,and as you know, the products I produce are not subject to GST. In the current economic climate, is is extremely difficult for us to be able to continue to present our customers with affordable fresh produce. Here are a couple of possible effects of an increase in fresh produce prices:

- Less consumption of these products and an even greater shift towards processed goods. (Not ideal for one of if not THE fattest nation on the earth)

- An increase in the amount of imported fresh produce. (You may not see this as a bad thing.)

- You would be taxing items that are not considered part of discretionary spending. i.e. It could be argued that all people buy these items, so it in fact more greatly impacts the poorest.

I know that I am biased on this issue, but I feel that my points are valid none the less.

A sugestion; what about a sliding scale of GST? The less essential the good or service, the higher the rate of GST.
The bean counters and bearocrats would have a field day with this one!

Unfortunately for all of us the Government and the politicians are continually looking for ways to extract more money from us the people.

Taxation keeps increasing and parliament creates more statutes to penalize and fine people such as the traffic office camera's etc.

They apparently disregard and ignore the following,

It is the onus and responsibility of any person or entity claiming government status to prove they act for or as a legitimate public servant of the Commonwealth of Australia. Any instrument including but not limited to Acts and amendments must be proven valid as defined within an Act to Constitute the Commonwealth of Australia 1900 (UK)

Unless we the people question the authority of the Politicians it will only get worse so we must remind them that they are our elected servants to do our bidding. We do not want increased tax burdens on us the ordinary people of Australia.

If they must increase taxation apply it to the foreign corporations that are buying our Australian assets and infrastructure, most of which is now foreign owned

Wayne Swan should be prosecuted for the abuse of the English language.

Whenever he says tax reform or savings, he means tax increases or new taxes. The existing taxes are almost never changed or reduced.

Man of The Land I understand and agree.
It was always my intention to say this.
GST could/should be removed to help our industry survive.
I do not like imported foods, fresh for sure we grow good food.
No expert in this or any area my thoughts are these.
Forget those who want less tax, they are usually the ones who want more from governments.
Forget too those with selective memory's, J W Howard taxed us much more than this current government.
It is my view, always has been, tax reform involves some welfare reform.
Remember I hold the view 80% of us think alike.
Far too many just will not work, some migrants have never worked, yet are fixed to Social Welfare,our tax dollars.
NO not saying all, not calling for cuts, but even a welded on Socialist, if they still exist, must agree welfare was meant for the needy not greedy.
If not all GST could cover much more, and remembering the final result must in truth be we pay more tax, and that tax increases as time passes, we then consider spending.
Getting a return for welfare is hardly harsh, why we do not do it baffles me.
Why do we pay welfare to folk who never paid tax here?
Interesting subject.

Belly a large amount of our taxes go to assist the wrong people and projects.
Why are our taxes used to assist anyone who have not contributed to paying tax in Australia?
How and why do the bulk of refugees arriving on our shores benefit to our taxes when they have never contributed any tax money in the coffers? Instead they are provided with benefits which many Australians do not get.
Australians who have worked and paid income tax then with the economic times as we are have been seeing for some time now is increased unemployment and people loosing the employment and incomes resulting in many facing homelessness and evictions.
Refugees appear to be provided with tax payer accommodation, yet very few if any Aussies are afforded the same.
I don't deny that there are some Aussies out there who are happy to bludge on the rest of us but I doubt that the numbers would be as many as we are led to believe.

In my view, a transaction tax is wortthy of serious consideration.

After all, any other form of tax is only ever a 'one off' tax, so it is limited wholly and solely to the amount of money one has to spend.

A TT on the other hand, is a tax on money and, money can be used time and time again, so a much better option is to collect a VERY SMALL tax for each and every transaction.

Say a TT tax of just 2%, as It wouldn't matter if you earned $40,000 per year, or $300,000 per year, the most you will ever pay is just 2%.

However, because your dollars get passed around from account to account, they just keep generating taxes, even those so call tax havens would pay tax.

All winnings, races, lotto, everything would be taxed as it passes through your bank account.

It simply has to be considered, as the abolishment of income tax would provide an enormous immediate, ongoing cash boost to the economy.

We should also consider a tax rebate system, whereby every purchase you make incurrs a 10%flat tax, then, once you produce your receipt to say Medicare, or perhaps you could mail them in, you get an immediate refund for the additional 8%, paid into your bank account, thus also collecting the 2% tax.

This would help stop the black economy as very few would make a purchase without requesting a receipt.

Either way, taxing money is better than taxing people.

Butcher,
I think something along the lines of what you are suggesting has been floated before. Not sure, but I imagine that your tax would encounter a bit of resistance. For example, it unfairly taxes those businesses which have a high turnover relative to their margin and favours those who don't. Imagine the speculators on the stock market squeal. (I seem to be arguing for it now) But seriously, there are many businesses who sell items with margins as low as that.

When thinking about tax reform, one needs to think about what the goals are.
- Do you wish to favour any particular groups? i.e. poor, wealthy, big business, small business, large asset holders?
- Do you wish to encourage a particular behaviour? Spending, saving, eating habits, gambling, environmental conservation, etc. Or do you trust the 'free market' to sort it out for itself.
- What role should government play in people's lives? The more you wish a government to do for you, the higher the required level of tax.

I know these are fairly broad, big picture questions, but whenever the subject of taxation is breached, these questions invariably come up. It is the single largest, most complicated and most contested area of the law for exactly these reasons.
Gypsy,
Your claims are a little simplistic. I don't imagine the refugees here are living a life of luxury. A large portion of the costs involved here are on account of bureaucracy.

Make no mistake. Bureaucracy is the condom on the penis of progress!

Belly,
Glad to hear you are not advocating the death of the fresh produce farmer.
I invite criticisms to my idea of a sliding scale of GST, based on how important the item is to a reasonable standard of living. Happy to give some elaboration on the idea if there is interest.

What ever ideas we come up with it is unlikely we have the answer.
But I would include welfare in the reforms.
For that reason I would give Pay as you earn relief to the lower income earners to supplement them for increased GST.
I too think within trade agreements we have signed and benefited from, we should use the GST as a local tax, to support farming and manufacturing when possible.
AS the tax is spent, we should re view what on.
And my long wished for work for real wages to pay back the dole, can help.
I think it would reduce fraud and should not compete with existing jobs but must return dividends to tax payers.
We have too many taxes, in my view SOME kill incentive.
Extreme tax on fuels is stopping weekend tourism, a once benefit to many towns.
Get rid of some tax that actually takes more money to collect than it brings in and make a standard tax system that can work all the time.
Gypsy to some extent you are right, we do pay SOMETIMES more to refugees than our own.
But while it may be too generous we can not starve them.

Sorry Belly old mate. I can see where you're going, & why, but there is no chance of me wanting to see any tax changes.

You see I'm bl00dy sure this government would definitely shaft all the little people in any changes. It would not be unintended consequences, but hidden rip off traps with her ladyship.

Assuming we get rid of her, I'm afraid I would not trust the likely replacement, particularly as many of you would have an ex investment banker, [read crook in my language] in the job.

It never ceases to amaze me how people these days whinge about the amount of tax they pay.

Compared to what the average person was paying 30 years ago, we are now paying a heck of a lot LESS in tax (taking the GST into consideration as well). The overall tax percentage my business pays is the LOWEST it's been for decades ..... by a LONG way. My personal taxation is a WAY lower percentage of my income compared to decades ago.

But still the whingers complain.

They want the health services, the roads, the communications, the education, the defence, the various infrastructure etc etc etc. BUT, they don't want to pay for it. Yep, they are true Aussie whingers.

Hasbeen you seem to have missed my point, I want to isolate those little people from any rises.
DP yes quite right.
As a youth I could have pointed to far worse conditions for battlers than today.
Tax reform under any government, note election coming, is needed.
We have constantly, drifted towards being too kind with welfare.
Do not like that?
Well in truth the center and just left of center must confront this.
To waste welfare is to leave reform to Abbott, he would be much harsher.
I agree with his plan to get work out of refugees, now be realistic!
The costs are crippling us, the need to stop the flood can be seen by any one with eyes.
Any tax reform MUST plug the spending leaks in every place we find them.
Then the extra tax will not be just more wasted money.

MOTL, I believe the TT style tax was trialed back in the 80's amd it collected plenty of tax.

As for your concerns about margins, it has also been suggested that a TT of just 0.2% would be sufficient to replace all other taxes.

However, in order to fix anything, you must first stop the bleeding, and it is the bleeding (continued waste) that is more of a problem than our tax system at the moment.

Put simply, our missmanagement of tax payers funds has outgrown the funds themselves, and this is the main reason we are in strife.

Step one, stop the waste.

Step two, introduce a better, fairer tax system.

Because even if we do come up with a better tax system, if the waste is not controlled, this system too will one day suffer the same fait.

Another option is to tip the system upside down, and reward the tax payer, for paying tax, rather than penalizing them as is often the case now, as I have always thought that retirement should be based on the amount one contributes, rather than penalizing them for their success, which is often the case nowadays.

As far as work for welfare goes, we simply need to value add some of what we sell as raw materials, then buy back in the value added form.

It's not rocket science, but the problem is that those on welfare, almost half, also vote and governments are ST scared of that.

You must be just a bit of a kid Pete, [lucky you], that or your memory ain't too hot. You did not go back far enough with your low tax comparison.

When I got my first pay packet in dollars, early 60s I think, [remember when we were paid in money?], it was about, or just under the average wage. For some reason I checked it thoroughly. My tax on that average wage was just 7.5%, quite a bit less than today, Hospital & medical benefits family rate, [insurance] cost which had been less than 4 shillings were now 39 cents.

I also remember the interest rate on my home loan was 4.25%, & that interest, & medical insurance payments were tax deductible.

At that same time, a pass book savings a/c with the same bank paid 3.25% interest. With a high percentage of their business being housing, the banks were paying their operating costs, & making their profit from that 1% difference.

I know it's hard to believe, but in those days bank staff, & even public servants, were actually trying to help you, when you talked to them. How times have changed.

Pete has told us he is in his eighty,s.
You do not have to go back to the sixty,s to find higher tax,s.
Howard taxed us at a much higher rate than today.

No government can lower taxes, while at the same time waste them time and time again.

It is this continued waste, combined with the illegals debacle that has caused our position.

And yes Belly, taxes were higher under Howard, but then again, he started with what was then a record deficit and left with some twenty billion in the bank, not to mention he had our boarders under control.

As I say, stop the waste, then fix taxation.

A number of poster have taken up my call to save waste.
But so far, apart from Rechtubs remark about boats and half true, one re Howard,s record, ignoring both the taxs and peak of the export of minerals took place then.
No one says how, see Abbott is cutting refugee numbers , not sure he will, and talking about stopping the boats.
Not sure he can do that.
How do we cut spending?
Surely not education/health/defense??
Why not start with welfare reforms, we approach a day it must take place.
I find it increasingly hard to think Abbott is mentioned in the same sentence as Howard.
Abbott continues to be Labors best hope

Belly, cutting the waste is far more important than cutting spending and, if spent wisely, the money spent can actually be beneficial to all.

A clisic example is the recent propping up of the car industry.

It would have been far better to make locally made cars more affordable, than to make manufacturing cheaper for the likes of ford.

One way would be to offer real incentives for buying local cars, such as fuel discount cards, perhaps even subsidize servicing, by placing highly subsidized apprentices into garages, rather than tafe colleges.

After all, the best way to save ford is for them to sell more cars.

As for welfare reform, it must be quarantined.

I know you keep saying I support food stamps, but you also know thats a fib, as I support a special debit card, one that wont allow waste.

It stands to reason, that if waste is addressed, there would be more to go around.

Belly I think you should seek some medical help. I think you've got acute Abbottisis. It's affecting your judgement in all matters society.
As for Tax just make it 15 % flat tax for every dollar earned. You can call it a TT it really doesn't matter.
I think we all agree that our pollies of every political colour are excessively remunerated for nothing. get their salaries back to floor one, get the public service pay back to a sane level & presto you've got a start to a better life in Australia for many.
As that senior member of the 1940's international political Boys Club would have said "Never before has so much been spent on so few doing so little".

Rechtub you are well aware my thoughts and yours are quite different.
Indy, sorry I am well aware thought is not involved in your posts.
And should stop looking for that, so again will ignore them.
I introduced waste saving to this thread, it was me who targeted welfare waste.
In my view the new Labor that will be born after Gillard drives this one over the cliff will see, waste is not defend-able.
However the facts should be considered, we are not about to re elect Howard.
Abbott is such a man, he proudly, and without need, tells us he knows nothing about economics,first truth his has said.
He intends to tax us, not the polluters to fix carbon emissions.
He wants to tax business to pay high income earners to take six months leave, to have a child!
Look at Campbell Newman, see his acts, the scandals ALREADY.
See Victoria, NSW see our future.
Before blackening tax reform, a thing both sides need to confront.
See the standard of politicians on both sides not the whole but those propping up current leaders, and those two second class never should be leaders.

Belly, who should pay the carbon tax, the generators of fuel, or the useres of fuel.

Surely it's the latter, because if you encourage a reduction in the use, you automatically reduce output, and carbon generation, whereas Gillards solution is quite simply a permit to pollute.

Evidence is in the fact that power stations that were targeted by Gillard to close, obviously feel the tax is worth paying, as they simply pass it on anyway,hence, it's just another short fall in the labor planning camp.

Let's face it, they are hopeless when it comes to administering just about anything.

Indi, a flat tax is nothing like a TT, as it, like any other form of tax, can only collect tax once.

Besides, a flat tax on every dollar is too hurtful to low income earners as they require 100% of their income just to survive.

can only collect tax once.
rehctub,
Provided you don't intend to spend your money yes, but as soon as you spend a buck off comes the tax. The moment a dollar changes hands there is a fee/tax.
It'll be hard to get something out of those feminists though, they only spend a penny don't they ?

Indi, am I right in assuming younare suggesting a tax on spending, not on income.

If you are, it's too high and in any case a 2% TT would raise far more money and have a much broader scope as it collects tax from every single financial transaction.

Rechtub please give me details of what fuels are to be taxed because of carbon and when.

rehctub,
I just picked 15% for argument's sake. I mean most of us are already paying more than half of our income in combined tax. You earn a Dollar & you pay so much Tax. Transaction tax whatever you want to call it would fall into this category anyway because in any transaction one is paying & the other receiving, so it's an income or isn't it ?
the bloke who is selling pays the tax because everyone has to sell be it selling your car or your services/labour, you're selling. Get paid $100 you pay tax on it. Getting money is not just receiving money, you've either worked for it or sold something.
Pension, medical/dental, accident insurance all included when you pay tax.
None of this writing off expenses. You want to produce or sell something then do it with the money you have don't make the reset of pay for it. Writing off expenses is what got us into this hole.

Judging by most posts so far we are not going to truely look at tax reform.
We are experts at blaming them, the other side of politics.
And not bad at complaining about paying too much tax now.
WE as expected, want far more from our governments,but not to pay for it.
Rechtub is not alone in wanting less spent/wasted? on the less well of, he has retreated from his often quoted, read his post history, food Coupon's.
Now it is a credit card type food recording system, for welfare recipients.
How many of us understand the results of such marginalization of the unfortunate?
From such uncaring views came Communism, from neglect of the hungry came, read the history, Nazi Germany.
My thread was not to send us all broke.
I had thoughts we could actually tax the rich, and tax us fairly.
I silly beggar that I am, think/thought a day must come, for all our benefit, we control waste in every thing.
Welfare waste is theft, from those who need it.
A willingness to target those most in need is un-Australian.
Tax reforms are going to come, we would be better for understanding that.

Belly, I have NEVER supported food stamps, mainly because they lend themselves to fraud.

I do however suggest a RESTRICTED debit card. One that can't withdraw cash and has certain items rejected at the check out.

Now had this stupid government done this with the stimulus hand outs and, implemented a use by date (use it or loose it approach) chances are, many would not be in the mess they are in today as the BILLIONS that were flushed down the toilet would have achieved something.

Just one single dollar of welfare, wasted on the likes of gambling, grog or tabacco is one single dollar that does not go towards supporting a child. The very basis of welfare.

Not one single cent of welfare is an entitlement (except old age pension) as it is a GIFT and it is a gift, from the tax payer, that should not be allowed to be wasted.

By all means, one is free to waste THEIR MONEY but not the tax payers, as they are entitled to know that their contributions to the needy are not being wasted.

But, above all else, before any real tax reform can be considered, we must get rid of this incompetent, proven wasteful, government, otherwise, it would be like pissing into a fan.

Put simply, they don't deserve to be in office.

Indi, with a TT, money gets taxed, not people, as people can only spend money once.

So effectively, the most you would EVER PAY would be 4% tax (well almost) as you get taxed when your money goes into your account, then taxed when it goes out.

There would be no income tax, so the additional cash would stimulate the economy.

Sure, if you sell something, you pay the tax, but hey, your income increased as well, so what's the problem.

I would really like some input from an economist on this one.

WE as expected, want far more from our governments,but not to pay for it.
Belly,
I beg your bl..dy pardon ? HOW MUCH MORE do you think we should fork out for this useless, incompetent bunch of inadequate individuals ? It's about bl..dy time WE got some bang for our buck. That last parliamentarian pay rise was nothing short of criminal AND YOU supported it. I even started a thread but no takers. Just that pay rise alone could have employed hundreds of ordinary Australians in gainful jobs, instead we got more dumb-crap useless bureaucrats. Don't worry Belly it's not just Labor, Campbell Newman is going down that track too. I only hope someone manages to shake him awake in time. Blue collar workers who do a job get laid off whilst they engage more bureaucrats to "look into it". Shades of Labor.

I would really like some input from an economist on this one.
REHCTUB ! ? Economists ? for crying out loud, they're the ones causing the whole shamozzle ?

Indy it is my honestly held view from a fair sized field in my years here, you are the most out of his depth poster we ever had.
Rechtub sorry your dad would be too, to hear and see your rants.
I see, have not ;looked yet, a new tax thread bet its rechtubs, innovative way to claim the right to our own thoughts.I surrender, if indys remarks along with yours rechtub are the best we can raise it is obvious we are not interested in tax reform.

Belly, it is my thread, and there is an interesting link I suggest you at least take a look at.

As for me wanting tax reform, yes, I do, but not until the waste is under control, otherwise, any new system will eventually sucome to the same fait as the current system.

You see, we had a workable tax system, but then along came the Rud/Gillard machine and literally blew it out of the water, in less than five years ,as the system simply couldn't keep pace with their waste.

Now the worrying part for me, is that the waste is showing no real signs of being controlled, thanks to this nightmare they have created in the way of the illegals debarcle.

So the question is, do we find a better tax system to feed the waste, or, do we stop the waste, then find a better tax system to feed our people's wants and needs, with the emphasis being on OUR PEOPLE.

However, as I have said before Belly, you think labor's only problem is their leader, when it is common knowledge that any labor leader in today's party is simply a puppet, as their strings are pulled from above.

Now you can remain in denial, as after all, it's a free country, or it was.

As I have said before, we have a foriegn aid budget, and if labor blows the lot on illegals, then so be it.

After all, governments are elected to run the country, not ruin it.

But tell me one thing Belly, why should we go without, and have to dig deeper, simply because your beloved labor party can't control our taxes.

rehctub,
The likes of Belly are the primary cause of anything that's failing in society. They want to better things but only if others take the initiative & put in the effort. By what I read of Belly he's done some work but most of his "working" life was being a Union Rep. So, he doesn't actually know how to make things work, he only knows how to inconvenience the workers by helping them get another 10 dollars a week whilst the prices have gone up 30 Dollars & he still got paid whilst the workers were on strike & got nothing. Yes we're talking about a really caring character here. He doesn't mind 50 Grand a pay rises for useless pollies. He doesn't mind the country going down the gurgled as long as it is Labor doing it. He wants Tax reform by making us pay more. The really sad part is that there are still many Belly's out there & it'll be a long time yet & a lot more suffering for many before they gradually wane. Meanwhile they attack those who care for this country. Just because they don't know what caring means they just get more selfish at the expense of decent people.

The thread has run its course.
No informed and intelligent conversation can be held if the only other contributors are poor old Indy and rechtub.
Just look at indys charges against me.
And let us be honest a review has been done and not fully followed up by Labor.
It is CERTAIN Liberal incoming government, that too is certain, will bring in a total over haul of the tax system.
Here is why I despise the greens!
They in asking for their nonsense policy's,ACTUALLY leave the reforms to that incoming government, beyond doubt harsher than Labors.
I know my words are not nice, but look at the history of INDYS posts ,and those wh0o clashed with him.
Then look at mine, my open warfare on my party, compare Rechtubs post history.
We should openly review our own thoughts often, but to brand me one eyed LABOR is pure blind, well leave it there.
Tax reform is every ones business but understanding should come before commenting.

Ducking and weaving once again I see Belly, threatening to once again take your ball and run.

So tell me Belly, what is unreasonable about my posts. I mean, why shouldn't we quarantine welfare, a move that would allow the tax payers funds to stretch just that bit further, and perhaps just take a few kids off the streets as the welfare dollars being flushed down the toilet, were paid in good faith, to the parents of of these street kids.

After all, all I am suggesting is that welfare not be used for gambling, grog or tabbacco. That's all!

As for tax reform, I am sure even you agree that it would be useless without first addressing the waste.

As I have said,

STEP ONE stop the waste.

STEP TWO reform taxes.

Please, tell me where I am being one eyed or unreasonable.

Just look at indys charges against me.
Belly,
For your info they are not charges, they're observations pretty close to the bone wouldn't you say ?
You can not on one hand promote reform when on the hand you do not accept what's happening.
Reform is not about simply paying more Tax it's about stimulating the economy/work without wasting hundreds of millions on stimulus packages. Now that the money's gone we can't have another stimulus package can we ?

Rechtub if you read others posts, you will have seen from my first post, my views are the same as yours however not as harsh.
I could, probably should, but will not, go back to your post history and let it do the talking.
You know I am far from your only detractor.
You seem fixed in the views I oppose for life.
INDIVIDUAL, YOU HAVE FAR TOO MUCH FRONT.
AND NOTHING TO BACK IT UP, CONSTANTLY CLASHING WITH any one who thinks,clearly, you do not think that is.
This thread was NEVER ABOUT ALP OR LIBERALS.
It was to be about tax reform.
Mate only rechtubs challenge I was running away bought me back, not your bleating.
Now reconsider your last few posts here, would you, after expressing your views about me,except me telling you a truth?
Your next original thought will be your first.
However do not sit around waiting for it. it may never come.

Belly, I accept that you also see unwanted waste, I also see you care about welfare waste.

My argument is simp,y that we must first stop the waste, before finding ways to produce more to waste.

As for welfare reform, particularly, quarantining, is something we will agree to disagree on.

However, any form of tax reform taking place now, is in desperation to fund the illegals debacle, without taking an axe to the likes of health and education.

I am all for tax reform, especially if it means this dodging tax now, have to pay, but, not until we stop the waste.

Reform usually to change for the better. So, if we want Tax reform it'll need to be better than what we have presently. Does better also mean fair ? Well, fair for whom ? I honestly believe I'm paying already my share so for me a reform which advocates paying more tax is absurd. Just as absurd as those who pay very little percentage in tax because they can claim or write off expenses. expenses most ordinary folk have too but write off albeit on a scale far more humble. I have witnessed contractors writing off fuel which went into their boats for fishing trips & not into their trucks/machinery. I see bureaucrats claiming expenses which are made up purely of imagination or rather bull$hit. This is what needs to stop. We let Dentists write off expense after expense only to have to wait 2 years to get an appointment. Much better to use medicare to pay for airfares to the Philipines to see a dentist at a moment's notice for a quarter of the cost.
Yes we need Tax reform & we need it desperately & pay less for it. A TT or FT would do fine for a start.

Belly,

Simply adding new taxes on top of old taxes is not reform.

P.S. Juliar also has a higher disapproval rating than the carbon tax, and anyone placing money on your nose would have lost it all.

I can only hope two of the three posters above have not bothered to read my posts, Shadow Minister is beyond hope.
If that is not the case, they, all three to some extent can not grasp my meaning.
From post one, and my intention before posting the thread, is my thought waste and other reforms go hand in hand with any tax reform.
We learn, if we wish to, from the combative anti Labor replies.
Remember, those who cover up issues within their own side, those who willingly target any thing on the other benches, even if untrue.
Feed wrongs such as NSW Labor did and never serve in truth their party.
Improvement comes only after the understanding problems exist.
SOME seem to think every thing is a Labor plot.
SOME too see Tony Abbott as a savior,Howard like.
Tax reform is universal, it is needed by both sides and us all.
My scheme said cutting for some, to help raise GST as a fairer tax .
It calls for some taxes to be abolished.
And the retrieval of tax from tax avoiding high income earners, offshore tax avoidance systems and much more.
For the first time in Gillards reign, I see her having a very real chance of winning an election, true, crying wolf is sickening more and more Australians.
And the bleating here is symptomatic of not average views, but fixed and blind red neck right, and those unable to think clearly, ,honestly, on any issue.

I am beginning to see why many people don't persist with OLO. The level of debate inevitably deteriates.

Tax reform or no tax reform, the result from either alternative at the moment will be the same.

What we are slowly seeing here is the death of capitalism and an increasing shift towards socialism. Just look at the results in the US. Much of their campaign was focussed arround exactly that issue.

For gen x, I hope for your sake that you are happy with the class, socio-economic status, whatever you want to call it. Because you will have little hope in the near future of transcending it. The time for the entrepeneur is nearing its end.

ManofTheLand I did say at times we would differ.
It has to be the case,while distraught at Labors current path, I basically look for a return to our past, not so far back, ways.
Capitalism is our only way, it supports in this country all our welfare and aid all that we value.
Socialism was a good idea but never in truth can it work.
Reward for effort is the best driver
While socialism is still on Labors platform it is mostly ignored.
My purpose was to say, clearly, we waste too much on WELFARE.
Thread after thread I started, asking for welfare reform sees me bombarded.
The extremists on both sides scream the most.
BUT reserving SOME government, local for sure, for unemployed has merit.
And we must stop paying folk to sit down.
Remember when drainage on country roads got cleaned, weeds sprayed dangerous trees felled?
Could we have crews cleaning trees from rivers and making a national camp sites short stay trail.
I understand you views.
But look from my eyes, if I leave the site has one less voice from center or Labor right.
I am constantly of late considering just that.
You bought a fresh voice here, I value your contributions, take me on if you do not agree,we can still be mates.
This thread had no chance, should have known that, tax reform could be good for most, but it became politics only.
I admit, my point about no tax except a much higher GST for lower income earners, is socialism, or is it another way of lowering our need to pay welfare?
And if we continue to pay middle and high income earners welfare we are quite stupid.

Belly....And if we continue to pay middle and high income earners welfare we are quite stupid

You do realize that only 58% of the workforce, picks up the slack, and pays ALL the bills.

Surely you don't deny them getting something back for their much needed, much relied upon, efforts.

One huge problem in this country is that too many are expected to contribute, knowing full well they will get nothing for their efforts.

Rechtub your own words convict you.
It is you, who in thread after threat target welfare.
High wages, waste, yet you wish to leave high and middle class welfare untouched.
Why YOU lurch in to me, in this thread, about welfare waste.
Bloke I staggered in to your post history, not to retrieve it to blacked you.
But to remind me how often you target me.
Have fun.

The worst, and most expensive welfare of all, is CORPORATE welfare ..... the coalition likes to take care of it's own.

DiamondPete,
So you don't mind our tax dollars being unaccountably thrown at Government welfare (remember it's our money) but you object to corporations which, unlike Governments, actually create wealth, using the money they make from their initiative on themselves ?
Don't you believe in reward for effort ? Are you one of Belly's union deciples who don't mind getting benefits for no extra effort but complain when those who perform get some reward ?
I really do think you're a weird mob you Labor voters.

I is unfortunate that we here swap insults not facts.
Too that folk leave the forum because of this.
Again that such as MOTL tell us so.
I agree.
What however are the alternatives?
Are some thoughts better not said?
Are some things better not talked about.
I think not.
How else would we know Individual is a policy and understanding free zone?
We could have looked, but lets be honest had no effect, at tax reforms, by any or both party,s.
But leaping blindly to the view it was about a party, in Rechtubs case, about wasting by , in my view having welfare at all.
We return to head butting.
I can not win this, Indy has had a lifetime of practice, hard of head devoid of thought, I can make no impression on his dark world views.
I concede defeat.

Belly, I don't target welfare it's self as you know full well I target WELFARE WASTE.

Ordinary people go out and work, pay their taxes, knowing full well a portion of their taxes, goes to people who either can't find work, or don't want to work.

Surely, given that many of these tax payers get zip, or next to in the way of support from the government, are entitled to demand that their contributions are not wasted.

Waste is my beef with welfare, not welfare it's self and, considering so much gets wasted, we need to address this.

After all, welfare is a gift, not an entitlement.

Not worth the effort rechtub.
You are pushing the same barrow I did from my first post.
But you are trying to push it side ways.

Belly,
here's one you could possibly understand;

Waste;
1 [ with obj. ] use or expend carelessly, extravagantly, or to no purpose: we can't afford to waste electricity | I don't use the car, so why should I waste precious money on it?
• (usu. be wasted on) bestow or expend on an unappreciative recipient: her small talk was wasted on this guest.
• (usu. be wasted) fail to make full or good use of: we're wasted in this job.
2 [ no obj. ] (of a person or a part of the body) become progressively weaker and more emaciated: she was dying of AIDS, visibly wasting away | (as adj. wasting) : a wasting disease.
• [ with obj. ] archaic cause to do this: these symptoms wasted the patients very much.
3 [ with obj. ] literary devastate or ruin (a place): he seized their cattle and wasted their country.
• informal kill or severely injure (someone): I saw them waste the guy I worked for.
4 [ no obj. ] literary (of time) pass away; be spent: the years were wasting.

Ok Belly, so how do you propose we address welfare waste?

Do you think it is reasonable for welfare dollars, much of which is provided as family support, to be spent on the likes of gambling, grog and cigs, knowing full well that many kids go hungry as a result?

Do you think the millions, if not billions of welfare dollars wasted on these three would be better spent on providing for some of our homeless?

Now of cause, you can choose any of the following.

You can give a straight answer. Unlikely!

You can accuse me of being abusive toward you. Can't see why!

Or, you can simply run away.

I'll leave it up to you.

Rechtub I get a grin out of your posts.
My so called running away is not to defend me but you.
Along with poor old indy.
You two get involved in a thread not to find answers and bring fresh ideas.
But to turn it in to a verbal tennis match.
Unfortunately you bring a huge racket, but it has no strings.
From post one my view said clearly welfare reform must be part of tax reform.
In truth much more reform too but not more than welfare.
I have for years warned vote buying by both sides,in middle class welfare, and sit down money at the other end is wrong.
You challenge me?
What welfare reforms would you introduce.
What tax reforms would you consider.
In your view what are the tax reforms Abbott will put in place.
You, and AUSTRALIA, scream for an end to the boats.
Give me your plan to stop them,
Sit down indy, yes you can have the bone, give me your views on each question.

Silence may not be Gold but it can be descriptive.
A debate, about a vitally important tool government has to meet our wanted things.
And a request to look at just what we want against what we need has failed.
Oh it has a few posts, but not much real debate, few real ideas and in the end? nothing.
Well respected MOTL left but a question must be asked, is the right to opinions other than ours ok?
Rechtub and Indy have not contributed answers even thoughts.
Just unfocused criticism
How many of us know that in the first world war, or just before, Great Briton first introduced Pay as You Earn tax?
And have contributors considered in depth why Greece is in its current shape.
Is it related to its reluctance to pay tax and demands YES DEMANDS for a big public service and very early retirement on excessive pensions?
So leave tax reform lets go back to Abbottism, no policy's, they may frighten the voters no real warning about what is to come.
Just line up to flog Gillard as a blind to not telling us their plans.

Belly, you are so wrong.

Firstly, my suggestion for tax reform is to at least look seriously at a transaction tax.

Secondly, I said that before reforming taxes, we must first put an end to this out of control government spending.

Otherwise, the waste will simply consume any additional taxes generated in time.

Then what!

You could write a 100 page book on labor's spending, and Chances are, their beneficial achievements would hardly occupy the bottom left hand corner of the back page.

I heard a well stated point today, that being, Julia didn't win the election, she won the negotiation.

And just take a good hard look at who she negotiated with. Weak as water.

As for welfare reform, there is only one major change I would make, and that's the quarantining of payments, as welfare is a gift, not a given right.

As for the illegals, that's one huge mess, caused wholly and solely by this incompitent government.

As for stopping it, force will be our only option.

Now we can act now, or wait till they bring guns.
it's our choice!

Put simply, they are a joke.

Rechtub as expected very shallow and that, believe me, describes you best.
I end with as I started tax reform linked to welfare.
The baby bonus is shameful.
We pay even the super rich to have a child.
Retrieve it , put the funds in the children,s day care, of far more use than big screen TV, then dump the child on DOC,s.
A job for every unemployed person after a month on welfare.
Even if that job is more education and trade training.
SUPERVISED if not true work no dole.
End all middle class welfare.
Single rule for all Australians, if kids do not go to school AND do it to learn not run amuck, no dole for parrents no welfare.
Unlike your self I could continue.

Yes Belly, we both want similar outcomes, we just see different ways to achieve it.

However, I disagree with cutting middle class welfare, as they are entitled just as much as anyone else, as after all, it is they who pay the bills.

The baby bonus, yes, a joke from day one, which encourages drop kicks to breed.

This is my last post in this thread.
I could stumble on, trying to re focus on an issue I think is of the most importance.
To both sides of politics.
Rechtub and I squabble, but I would buy him a beer any day.
Indy? no sorry.
But see my sparring partner Rechtubs last post, above mine.
No ending middle class welfare?
Paying welfare to those who do not need it.
How can we reform if first we say continue unneeded waste?
And stopping what was it from breeding?
Well, as usual Rechtubs words strangle his point of view.
See you in another thread.