http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/7903081/Loving-dads-year-of-torment

A year to have a case dismissed and in the meantime banned from going near your home and having supervised visits with your children.

The children involved are pre-teen, was there a reason they were upset by what was going on?

Are parents forgetting how useful a good lie is?

TPP thanks.
I see it as standard issue old maids, some of them men who can not mind their own business and police who are afraid to make mistakes.
Fat too many Cops just can not trust any one.
Schools see male teachers leave.
Men forced in public not to show love to Daughters, some times sons.
Not take photos.
Lets lock the true offenders up forever.
Family should be free to love one another this simple way.

Yeah there’s lots of issues inside the story Belly, I think a lot to do with minimising harm by more timely court proceedings etc. But the one that I thought about most was the upset to the children over the length of time it all took.

I would have lied to the kids.

You remember that movie “Life is Beautiful”? Dude and kid in Nazi camp but the father had the child believing he was in a competition and the grand prize was a tank. Cool little movie, not so sure about believable in those circumstances but certainly parents can pull it off when bad stuff happens.

Don’t we do it all the time: “Oh the tooth fairy was having a night off” ...Not... “shite I totally forgot”.

the same fools who made the fuss about this seemingly loving father would demand rights for step dads and defactos to feed on porn legally. It is a very sick world.

TPP,
I have no idea what the mother would tell the kids why daddy is not living with them.

My concern is for the father, not only has he been unfairly treated but seperated from his family, has to find and pay for accomdation and all the legal costs. That is a pretty rotten deal.

I recall cases where a vexacous wife has made up allegations of impropriety against the husband, relating to the kids. How does one defend that?

What about a situation where a small boy requires help with his clothing in order to say urinate. How old is a boy when a mother sends him on his own to the 'Mens'? Would I endeavour to assist or walk away. If there was no one else there, it would be safer for me to walk away and ignore his prediciment. Sad world we live in.

Parents not allowed to take photos of their kids at a swimming pool and so on. Saw a news article the other day where a girl was suspended from school for hugging another girl.

The world has gone mad!

Yep you’re safer to walk away and not help kids Banjo, the world has gone mad but it is a response to the numbers of children that bad things have happened to.

A bit like putting in ugly pool fences everywhere instead of trusting adults… because I think the stats showed a minority of adults weren’t to be trusted but the price being a minority of children wasn’t to be tolerated.

So for the greater good these rubbish cases will happen with sloppy police work and crap witnesses. Speeding up the process would go a long way towards helping people move on.

A lie, umm… dad has to move closer to his office because he has a lot of work to do? Give me time I could think up a whopper. Would I involve a child to the extent that they afterwards talk to the press, nope I’m not sure what that’s about.

Suspended for hugging another girl? Gosh girls always hug while young guys do the – well not sure what they do here - handshake half-hug manly pat on the back type thing? But in an equal world sexually if schools say girls and boys can’t hug then maybe you have to go for an all-out no physical contact rule. I dunno, never heard about the hugging thing. That might be a whole other thread now you got me thinking Banjo.

Runner you are saying the same random stuff as a year ago and I was worried about you back then.

RUNNER, what you'd said, '...it's a very sick world...' ? I couldn't agree with you more !

And BELLY, words such as 'love' 'family values' and the like, seem to be quickly receding even vanishing altogether, and that's so very sad indeed. We will ALL rue the day, when the 'family' disappears, and the only reference to it, might be found in some dusty lexicon ?

The whole Family Law deal is so complex, often without any winners.

And finally, to the PIED PIPER - sometimes it's an absolute imperative that we need to lie to those amongst us who are the most vulnerable and assailable within the family unit.

In fact, the patriarch or matriarch of the family has a pivotal commitment to the very young, and the aged, to employ language of a kind, that inspires and generates a sense of calm and well being, during a family predicament or crisis !

If by necessity, untruthful or fallacious language is needed, to achieve that objective, then so be it.

Cheers...Sung Wu.

As you say, TPP, lots of issues - not the least being the chasm at times between the law, its enforcers and justice.

"The father said even as the constable questioned him at the campground, one of the three daughters jumped up and kissed him, and poked her finger through a small hole in his shirt saying "tickle, tickle".

It was an example of the type of behaviour the campers must have seen, but there was nothing wrong with it, he said.

Police did not take any action then and the family laughed about the misunderstanding, until police came knocking on their door three months later, in March last year."

From those circumstances - if you still "would have lied to the kids" how about, 'Daddy has been made a deputy by the police who need him to hide undercover as a special secret spy for a year and a half to help them with their inquiries...'?

But I would let some time elapse whilst attempting to rebuild your family (as far as it could recover from such tragic interference) before trying to teach the kids that 'honesty is the best policy'.

TPP,
Yeah, I feel sorry for the loving father in this case and sometimes the police do stuff up. Hope he can get some financial compo, at least.

But on the other hand both you and the police come across some bad parents at times.

One case I heard about, the police saw a car leaving a pub one night and pulled it over for a breath test. They found a drunk woman driving whilst breast feeding a baby. Apparently she had been at the pub for hours, leaving the baby in the car. Baby hungry and needed changing so put it on breast to stop it crying on the way home.

It makes me mad to hear this and babies abused, when I understand there are couples anxious to adopt.

I think we should and do lie to protect our kids.
Runner uses what looks to me, to be a terminological inexactitude here too.
First I find it highly unlikely the silly fools who acted as we are told did so more than likely in the interest of the children, if miss placed.
I ROTFL at the thought the sticky beaks broke from reading porn, maybe Portnoes complaint? to make the call.
A am stunned to think thet took the trouble while considering Abortions.
Runner fair go bloke. please start a thread but do not charge every pizza delivery man with such evil intent.

Pied Piper welcome back. The down sides of being willing to lie incude when to stop, what are the unexpected results, whos benefit is the lie for?

Some stuff should be kept from kids but its a risky business. What will the kids think of their dad if they think that work is so important to him compared to them that he moved out to be closer to work and does not spend weekend time with them? Whats the long term subconscious impacts of that?

Pondering runners comments. We don't know anything about the witnesses, they may have thought they had good reasons for what they reported and people should be able to report suspected abuse. If we are going to play the game of speculating on the witnesses values though I find it easier to imagine them having the sort of sexual hangups that would have them see abuse wher its not, seeing porn in great photography, being opposed to porn and anything they deem to be porn. A lot harder to imagine them being advocates for more state control of peoples lives.

R0bert

An error in that last line, it should have been that it harder to imagine them being advocates for government less control in peoples lives.

R0bert

Looks like we’re all on the same page as far as telling a lie being appropriate in some circumstance to protect children. Good point about when to stop R0bert and hello there.

I suppose that comes with what lie you have told and what has happened and can the children cope with the truth yet. I think working away from home and being very busy is easier to cope with than imagining your dad in jail for touching you. My husband often went overseas for 6 months at a time to work for real.

“"One of the children thought he was dead, and another was trying to get lemons to make lemonade to pay to get her father back from the police," she said. "I don't think I can ever trust the police again”
"It's made them [the children] want to be with him more than ever because they don't know what will happen next."

The above makes me think everyone was a little too honest.

I’ve heard of mums and dads being amazing when DoCS come calling to remove children and they tell kids how great it is that they are going to go on a little holiday and pack their stuff – that kind of fortitude in what would be a terrifying moment for most parents is very cool.

It would be nice to know a little more about the case, witnesses that complained but didn’t step in and halt any behaviour they reported later? Police only interviewing witnesses that agreed something indecent had happened?

And yet: “Detective Sergeant Craig Johnston, of Nelson, who did the review, said in his report in July last year that he believed the father had been correctly charged.”

Surprising given the information in the article.

And ugh Banjo – hope they removed that baby on the spot.

hi piper..i read the link ..and im one of those who feel suss on these things..as a parent..who was molesterd..i was never able to get close to my own kids....thus look with susspition at those who over do the cuddly wuddly thing..too..

you got to be able to think..like those who have been hurt by this fondling of kids..[the kid poking her finger into his shirt indicates this he has done to his[and no doudt other kids..some mug tried to bribe my youngest with lollies for a kiss..right in fron of me..once[that for me was a step too far

they were in a camping area..with other kids
he no doudt would poke his fingers into any little hole..to get hgis thrills

i feel he got off on a teqnicality
if you go doing stuff in public..the public has a right to complain[and that is all the right police need..you know how i hate docs..but thats another issue.

but mate i gotta tell you
some bloke pokes a hole in my kids clothing..i rip his head off[its bad enough doing it to his own..IN PUBLIC*..let alone in front of my kids..[thats called desensitisation or grooming..the kids think my dad dont love me cause he dont try to poke his diget into my holes.

i write to allow you to vent back mate.
finger pointing and all that prevented me..but i know you need to talk.

please find reason to continue
[i dont lie to my kids..even re santa/easter..and al that other huggie stuff..some never got it..or had too much of it..but if blokes can poke their digets in holes..thats grooming..ok not enough proof..but a sign.

Hey OUG, I missed you.

I had a wee looksee for this article showing up anywhere else on the net and only found about 6 responses anywhere else which all came from menfolks with comments about how men always get falsely accused because they have penises. Yawn I thought... same old same old. Indignation abounds as they zero in on what they thought they read.

So it’s interesting OUG that you spotted that it does seem to appear certainly a little unclear to me why the case was dismissed. Really my only focus was the children coping with what was going on around them and how would most of us protect our children in the same circumstances.

A kid poking her finger into a hole in the fathers shirt sounds like a spontaneous thing a playful kid does to me. I'm not sure why it's even mentioned.

I would lie or withhold information from children, because suggestion is a bad bad thing and children’s imaginations are almost as bad as adult imaginations. So unless they have the ability to understand what their dad is accused of then I wouldn’t be feeding them any information about any part of it.

Other bits of the story make me curious; these accusing people watched but did not act in the moment. Why did the police wait three months. Were the children interviewed or checked by a doctor. Why would the adults be happy to be identified along with their children if “legal reasons” weren’t holding them back.

Thank goodness for legal reasons I reckon.

OUG and to some extent the focus of this thread highlight a couple of major problems. OUG willing to regard the man as guilty based on OUGs own issues rather than on any understanding of playfull interacting with kids. The thread because of the apparent utter lack of concern for what the father has gone through and will probably continue to go through for the rest of his life. Hes treated as disposable, the only concern is for the kid and stuff what happened to him as an adult.

Why should the lives and wellbeing of children be treated as more important to society than the lives and well being of the adults they grow up to to be? Parents may choose to sacrifice their lives for their kids but as a society we can do great injustice when we start treating one group as somehow more worthy of decent treatment than others.

The power difference between government and most individuals is far greater than between adult and child so that's not a legitimate reason for dismissing the way adults are treated at times.

So men do raise the issue when opportunity arises, all to often met with the rsponse that whatbhappens to them is a yawn. Its hardly surprising that while men are treated as disposable that some will reach a point wher they treat others in the same way.

The horror faced by an innocent man accused of being a child abuser, being kept from his family and kids on the basis of a claim by strangers and still stuck with supervised time with his kids is not a yawn, its not trivial.

R0bert

i am really without hope in these things
yep a no hoper..in the main because ignorance is so easy to claim.
govts lie..prime[lol]minesters lie..lawyers lie science lies media lies..so why lie..cause 'everyone is doing it'.

well tell me its fine to go poking holes in clothing
and lets play on a level field...but we dont got a level field.

as to why the police took 3 months..isnt my issue..nor why the observers didnt say anything[but lets go the 2 de option]..cause users easy turn to abusers..thats why.

ask more who is getting the benifit..[those in the know..or with clever lawyers..or rather who complains first..who gets their foot in the door....first.

the first invaders claimed the best spots..[in say briton
they lord the roost..you want to work the masters land..he takes his share of the top..[like your grandkids wont be able to go to the gem fields and mine the wealth..or soon even fish..cause they got no voice.

as a smoker i got my big new tax instantly
collecting so far billions more than the big miners will pay[ever]..my father died of asbestosis from smoking the asbestos filters in his fags..but we were too ignorant to sue anyone.

i hear much of abuseive priests..but heck they got colluded deciete on their side..and there must be little dispute that liers with lawyers..do as they will

[see the bbc child pervert idiot..molestering at will anywhere they wish...why?..the second they get accused they attack right back with scummy lawyers!

the link validates ya need someone to speak for you
those having no one..well stuff em.

i been declared a criminal cause of my own ignorance
pray lord this living nightmare ends sooner rather than later..the power lies with the people is a huge lie..cause power is to subvert power to special people..who can murder rape pillage steal whatever they will.

the bbc this morning explained how powerless the obomination is with sandy..yet can kill unseen from the skies..and no one complains[who matters..so we live with drones in the skies..rapists in the places our kids congregate..who need docs..to get at our kids.

till you felt that knife blade shear through your soul
seen you got no power..you just cant know..regardless of who tells you no.

i hate lies
detest liars..users/abusers
no mater who they are..or where they do it...blatently..
upon anyone who..'lets them'..or aint strong enough to stop them...

R0bert don’t forget the woman, if the man was found guilty then a mother is generally regarded as failing to protect her children and the department can step in and remove them. Without being found guilty the mother is also regarded with suspicion as to her role in events and further charges could possibly be laid against the mum.

Trust me, the lives and wellbeing of children are often discarded (they don’t vote or organise protests or hire decent lawyers) and in this case the man has been through a horrible ordeal but I wonder how long before the impact is over for the children. Children can’t fight for themselves so I think we do need to place more importance on protecting them as a group in our society. If we want them to grow into healthy adults I think we better treat them as damn important now.

With complaints made to the police I’m not sure they could simply walk away, society would want to know why people making allegations were ignored. The time delay with the arrest is strange, sloppy policing maybe.

What I was yawning about were the comments I found on the net from men, they were stupid and bitchy rather than supportive of the man or the situation… obviously not OLO men. Given this man has told his story to the press it is probably part of a healing process for him. We don’t know him; he may have a lot of support and be feeling quite triumphant now for all we know.

http://menz.org.nz/2012/should-i-hug-my-daughter-in-public/#comments
“V_man says:
Sat 3rd November 2012 at 3:53 pm
What a massive amount of damage has been done to that family and those children! Someone needs to be held to account. At the very least there needs to be recognition that these false allegation do a lot of harm to children.”

“Shinhee Yi says:
Sat 3rd November 2012 at 4:52 pm
Dam Thing like this happens because there are too many women politician in Parliament?
Ya this shows clearly New Zealand is Anti male society.
Next thing you will see is Man walking out from family or No wanting daughter.
No wonder Man do not want to be married it’s curse rather then blessing.
Only be only blessing for women.”

I don’t think I can log in there and have a convo without the pitchforks coming out.

Why is it assumed a lot of harm to children is the result in these situations? I don’t think this is true if parents consider how they will protect them. Not easy given emotional turmoil at the time but “not easy” can get bent.

2p's said..""I don’t think I can log in there and have a convo without the pitchforks coming out.""

thats egsactly why most people bite their tongue
but to let that stop you is just being silly..just say it piper
and if they complain..so what?

""Why is it assumed a lot of harm to children is the result in these situations?""

i made a lot of consious choices..wether or not
to addict my kids to my love..keep them fixated on me..or deevelop into the world as a functioning human..

how many times do kids need to hear..'i love you'
[i cant recall a single instance of it..and as for hugging and kissing..thats what we do to lovers not thrust upon kids..

[thats not to say its right..or wrong..
its just a lot of folks say i love you for petty things..or by rote

or over use it..[like my ex wife was great at saying the words
till it came down to the deed's..[if your really loved you know it..who needs to be told it constantly?

from experience you buy the kid a treat[cheap fix....or take them out
they show they love you for thinking of them..but dependance on it..devalues..and even distorts how love is percieved..or achieved

its needy..do you really love me?
or what i can do for you?..or may do to you ..if you dont 'say 'it'

i say i love you to my kids and they say we know
if you know you dont need be told it..you just know.[its assumed..but if the parent says i hate you..then i love you..its just playing games.

love isnt a tap..you turn off or on by saying it like a mantra
to help you get what you want..for fear the love dries up

it just sounds so needy[both ways..
how many hookers just want to be loved..for me*..not what cheap tricks they give out to anyone..with the cost of the ticket.

""I don’t think this is true""..re the harm..of 'these situations'

i do..im sorry i so much prefer to say i loove you[than i disagree with you..but piper let loose here

we do care..if you have it worrying you
get it out...yell if you must..vent..
it cant make us love you any less..

yes males have got it tough..but so too mothers
some men like playing the poor me..so that the girls try to compensate

i can so hear clever guys playing their cards
""i so wish i could visit my kids..but..love me..poor me..feel sorry for me''..but i found in life we get as we give..and often more that we gave..

some are really great at getting that extra bit
[often taught manipulation..by over parenting..making us dependant..

its like a love drug..why are they so needy..
its not like kids got a choice in it...
or know IF its really love

..or other.

I’ve known a lot of little children that say I love you to strangers at the drop of a hat, I’m told there are various attachment disorders associated with what they are saying but I mostly suspect that phrase is just over used by adults and they usually get a good reaction for saying it so keep trying it out on everyone.

Nah the Menz group wont hear what I say. I did read some interesting thoughtful comments; I just wish they were in the majority. There was one appallingly stupid letter written to the writer of the article in there though.

Hey hugs and kisses are good OUG, but yeah they kind of become less and less in our culture as a child gets older. A tall 10 year old girl kissing and touching dad a lot might make strangers stop and check what they are seeing. And if they were suspicious then I believe they had to follow it up, too many people turn a blind eye more often than speak out. I’m still surprised no one stepped up in the moment if they were disturbed enough to make it all official later.

And all around us is talk about priests and people not only not stepping forward but hiding, moving and protecting those people. Everything is out of balance.

im a little concerned how the issue [of kids is becomming muddied
recalling the move last month to shut down bloggers..no i suspect they are lookinmg to hiop onto the issue

to get the censure of info..they so desire
what better than kiddies?
http://www.firmmagazine.com/features/1219/Schofield%2C_the_decoy_witchhunt_and_the_black_arts.html

http://21stcenturywire.com/2012/11/11/an-attempt-to-erase-history-bbc-and-downing-street-hope-entwistle-sacking-will-stop-the-hemoraging-of-public-confidence/

its about oppertuinism[think like children overboard

Since Friday’s assessment of David Cameron’s most embarrassing TV challenge by seemingly harmless personality Philip Schofield, the whole national conversation is now being engineered by Downing Street and top media executives, to rotate away from Jimmy Savile and MP Tom Watson’s call for a rooting out of organized pedophilia in government – and over to protecting the allegedly fragile reputations of hereditary elites like Lord McAlpine, who according to major newspaper editors and TV pundits, have suddenly become victims of a ‘witch-hunt’ for paedophiles.


Petraeus grabs a little with his biographer and has to resign (we are told), yet British media and government figures have been outed for buggering little boys and everyone scrambles to cover it up.

Strange.

I have often wondered if the price of being allowed into the upper levels of society is that you do something which if made public would destroy your career; a built-in self-destruct device to make sure you will always do as you are told to do by your masters. Maybe buggering a little boy is a political rite of passage, dark and arcane, like the lying in the coffin nude and confessing your darkest secret ritual at Skull & Bones.

Or it simply could be that people at the top of our societies are universally sick people.