Tony do you think Australians are happy to cut pensions but pay middle class welfare for high income earners to have children.
Are they behind cuts to health and education.
Tony as your scheme to control carbon emissions has the same target, do you think planting trees is the answer.
Is it not true most country,s use this as a supplementary act to reducing emissions.
Who pays for this.
Boat people, Tony, John Howard won two elections on his actions in this matter.
What is your plan if Indonesia continues to say no to turning the boats around.
Would you , in office consider the Malaysian solution?
Cuts in training? at a time we import skilled trades people?
A tax on business to pay for that over generous Baby bonus to middle and high income earners.
Mr Abbott have you noticed baby bonuses have , from the day it became thousands of dollars, seen a much higher rate of children in care, any links?
I hope Sir we see your policy's, truly costed this time, before the election begins.
Asking too much? maybe but can we know of the non-core promises too?

Abbot could not be as bad as this lot of incompetents that are in power at the moment.
Government says the boats are slowing down - 165 people on 3 boats in the last 24 hours would tend to indicate they are wrong.

Just this year alone this year alone over 14,000 welfare for lifers arrived, which the taxpayer has to support. NOT ONE IS HOMELESS OR GOES HUNGRY THOUSANDS OF AUSTRALIANS DO.

Millions to bribe countries to give us security council seat, then we get it some moronic minister says lets give the UN security council $34 Million dollars more.

Don't worry the mining tax will fix everything - Trouble is no one has paid anything, at least the greens want to re-work it but Government says NO.

NBN this one is a future debacle waiting to unwind.

The list of Labor mismanagement is very long the electors will remember.

I do not support Abbott but he is the least of the 2 evils at the moment.

Tony as you can see you have followers.
Most are blind to the truth about your policy's and the extent of the lurch away from Liberal principles.
How my bicycle peddling friend can standing against deregulation be a Liberal policy?
Are you in politics peddling a bike with no wheels to no place?
WA stands for the right to sell its wheat to who they wish, your party having delivered the AWB scandal, now wanted to control free enterprise?
What is your reason and defense for that.
Is it true many within your own party are concerned not just about that but the Negativity?
Remember, as shown in this forum, those who support you always would have.
It is your task not to win those votes,but to retrieve Howard,s swingers and those fleeing Labor.
Walking in to any mike as if you have a water melon under each arm and one gently balanced between your legs, is that a winner?
Heard of the boy who cried Wolf.
Tony take a look at the non existent rubble of so many steel city,s and mining town,s you declared dead?
It like your ranted promises did not happen.

Mr Abbott doesn't appear to be sure of anything. 14,000 welfare for lifers, how do you get that information.
You have no foresight if you think the NBN is not warranted.
Mr negative and DR no are the same person.
Going against his own kind in the wheat trade. How does that make any sort of cense. What advantage can he see in doing that.
How can the nationals continue to be part of this opposition, they are only being used for their preferences, and seats.
Abbott is desperate, his only goal is power, and i find it hard to see how the AU people will support a party with no policy, and no foresight.

Belly, time for you to be honest here mate.

Do not ask whether Abbott is worthy, without first asking whether labor has earned the right for another term.

I know you are no fan of Gillard, buy you also know in your heart that she is just a puppet, as her strings are pulled from above.

Do you think you may be defending the un-defendable?

579, what do you think are the benefits we will obtain from the NBN?

I must admit I am no expert, however it would appear to me that the future is mobile, not land line based.

Is the NBN also mobile?

If not, why not?

abbottphobia again to disguise Australians most incompetent and corrupt Government. Why am I surprised?

Butch All mobiles have to come down to earth sooner or later. The sooner it does the better for the cluttered airways.
NBN will advantage everybody. Outback medical will be transformed, and consultations by sight as well as sound.
Business in the sticks will be equal to business in the city.
Remote control operations in real time.
Outback schooling by sight and sound. The advantages are enormous. City people could not care less it doesn't worry them.

Belly,
The next election is about getting rid of the worst governmet ever. It is not about Abbott and as he is untried as PM it remains to be seen. Labor chose Gillard and, by your own admission, that was a disaster.

Besides,Liberals do not have the same emphasis on the leader as labor, they rely more on Cabinet decissions. They are not a one horse team.

I cannot see one Labor minister that has not bungled aomething.

Instead of Labors airy fairy, ill thought out, schemes what is needed now is solid steady government with good fiscal management. Libs have the track record here.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/tony-lighten-up-for-the-battle-ahead-20121103-28qq5.html
Gday Tony! hey the link looks interesting,is this woman controlled by me? a Labor slug?
Runner/Rechtub, and in another thread Hasbeen think I and Labor Tony are pushing Turnbull for your job!
What so he can flog my team skinless? strange way to support my mob.
Rechtub asking the interesting question, do I think LABOR IS FIT TO HOLD OFICE? YES YES!
Now Gillard no, her hand holding servant Swan, no longer.
But in truth, for those of us with two eyes.
Neither is Abbott.
Tony, bloke, read the link, do not bash me, its your own party,s view too.
Some one has lead you up the garden path, got the record stuck.
Un achievable promises, sky is falling warnings not related to truth, you have sold some real junk to your supporters, look at rechtub runner and hasbeen rip in to me.
For just telling the truth.
Turnbull equals a landslide victory to your side.
You represent the last and single chance, bar a leadership change Labor has.
Your betrayal of our country, by refusing to let the Malaysian solution go, what honestly is your intention other than using it and our cash for personal gain?

CORRECTION Now 4 boats within approx 30 hours another one now that is 214 welfare fore lifers.

579 - Like usual you open your mouth without reading the comment I said Quote "NBN this one is a future debacle waiting to unwind" I did not state that as you put it " NBN is not warranted"
Government statistics will give you a lot of answers just don't be lazy and look also a lot of the media keep a running score on the boats.

Why won't Labor give Centrelink recipients a rise probably because they have ABSOLUTELY no idea how many welfare for lifers will come and they are trying to save everything just in case the number REALLY BLOWS OUT.
They even stopped work on defensive measures against our own military bases in Australia not enough money.

Nero fiddled while Rome burnt.
Julia goes jet setting around.

do you think Australians are happy to cut pensions but pay middle class welfare for high income earners
Belly,
Probably just as happy as they were at the last $50,000.- per year federal Pollies pay rise.
When were you told the pension will be cut ? Can you & your Unions provide skilled workers ?
It probably hasn't occurred to you that it takes 4 years to train a tradesperson. How on earth do you expect the Coalition to run efficiently without qualified trades people ? You'll have to grant the Coalition at least a second term to prove it because they're not inheriting any trades people from Labor.
Unless of course you prefer Qld labor's tactic of flooding the local work places with outside contractors & leave the local workforce to go on the dole ?

Philip I was talking to Abbott old boy. Can you explain welfare for lifers.
Cabinet decisions, is it their decision for Tony to put his foot in his mouth at every turn.
The libs track record is crap, pledges in blood, happens, No.
That is some recommendation.
Tony won't allow the wheat men to do what they want to do with their own wheat. Was that a cabinet decision, or a shot from the hip.
That is more dictatorial, than good management.
Turnbull is your best hope, of any sanity in govt;.

Turnbull is your best hope, of any sanity in govt;.
579,
In comparison to what Labor has to offer yes, even Turnbull would be better but sadly for him the Coalition demands better.

Well by now a few will understand [unlikely any of the current Liberal contributors] this is my effort, on behalf of the shy Liberals to highlight their troubles.
Indy, one of our best ranters, seems, well is,unaware Abbott has said he will cut the pensions by taking back Labors recent increases.
In no way does not knowing stop his rants.
Have we noticed? some will have both my belief Labor can not win, and the extraordinary views, held by too many, that IF YOU DO NOT THINK AS THEY DO! you are wrong every time.
My link, laying many of my charges against Abbott has bought no remarks.
As silly childlike as it seems, SOME REFUSE TO READ OTHER VIEWS!
A mountain of evidence is there to rebut so many of the down right silly claims about a bankrupt country and waste.
Bur SOME are unable to let the light of truth shine in, note individuals uninformed comments.
Today, returning to my market day trips I tested the water, standing with a stall holder who is neutral but concerned, I soon found myself talking to three concerned Liberals.
One full of hate for me, briefly his attitude changed for some reason.
But each, without force, found we do actually have common ground, on almost every thing, even the subject of our longest ever thread.
Know what? these three two men and a middle to upper class woman, all agreed Abbott is no leader, he who hated me did so more for Tony.
The woman? loves Turnbull says as I do Abbott best serves the ALP.

Belly,
I read your link but thought it not worth commenting on, it is just a rant with no factual substance. A good illustration why I seldom read Grattan or Carlton.

Fairfax has far better columnists than her, Daley or Sheehan for example.

579 - The was a government survey in 2008 of 8,500 of people accepted by the Government. Of that 8,500 - 85% were still on Centrelink payments after being here for 5 years.

Just 9 per cent of Afghan adults got a job and 94 per cent receive benefits.

For the Iranian adults, just 12 per cent got a job.

That above are welfare for lifer, A lot can't speak English and do not want to learn so can never be given a job (if they had a an accident they would say "I could not read or understand the sign" the Government will then sue the employer.

Remember most boats have 95% men on them. That alone should tell you something is wrong.

Indonesia have said there are around 100,000 refugees there looking to get to Australia. Indonesia were stupid enough to let them into there country but they are glad when they leave for Australia.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/latest/a/-/article/15294469/abbott-pm-still-on-the-nose-with-voters/
Well come to the howling mob Banjo, I kept a seat for you.
We must not let statistics and truth get in the way of a good yarn.
Just so some will understand.
This link is to the Galaxy poll.
It has changed but not much.
Clearly, it is not the poll delivering a 50/50two party preferred.
This poll, RUDE! must be an ALP plot!
Well many will see it as such!
Delivers this news, BOTH EX LEADERS ARE PREFERRED OVER CURRENT ONES
Socialist lefty troublemakers want TURNBULL!
OH! hang on 60% of them?
Nah! polls are always wrong, UNLESS THEY AGREE WITH US!
Australia is lead by two rejects, not hard to work out but hard for our growing group of one eyed Liberals.
OH yes Galaxy, now got it half right my combative Liberals will see.
Clear victory to Libs, 20 seat loss to Gillard PTY LTD,
Damn idgits! say the nation wants to see Abbott gone!
Lefty loony,s!
I wish to say clearly all Liberal voters are not like this.
Many actually understand truth, the idea we have two party,s, that Labor voters make up more than Liberal or Nats on their own.
And just may be the bloke sipping his beer next to you.
Those who do not,like the greens,are over represented on line as people tend to walk away and not listen in real life.

579, the outback is a cheaper form of living for a reason. It simply doesn't have all the mod cons of the city. If one doesn't like that, move to the city, but don't try to move the city to the country, as it is simply poor value for money for the tax payer.

Put simply, you want the mod cons, you pay for them.

As I have said before, the NBN will benefit me personally, as I have fairly large land holding in a semi remote town, so I, and my kids, will clean up.

In fact, blocks such as mime have risen by as much as 800% in just 8 years. Town blocks by 3000%.

But my views and concerns are not about what's best for me, it's about what's best for us as a nation, and spending that much money so someone from the bush can get fast broad band is poor value for money.

Besides, I use an iPad out bush and it is plenty fast enough for me.

As for mobiles crashing, now there's a laugh!

Try telling that to a 16-20 year old. BTW, like it or not, they are the future and they will decide whether to stay indoors to communicate or stay mobile.

Now I'm not saying you're wrong, but my view is that Mobile is a multi billion dollar Industry that I feel is here to stay.

Continued

Continued
Belly, how is my asking a simple (very appropriate) question, ripping into you?

At the end of the day, like it or not, labor have stuffed up almost every single thing they have touched.

In less than five years, they have knifed a duly elected PM, one who wasted billions and created the worst mess in our history, the illegals debacle, replaced him with a PM who holds the record for the lowest support in modern history, had one leadership challenge and several threats, all while residing over the worst waste FEST in history.

They have spent our savings,opened the flood gates to unwanted, unaffordable illegals, moved heaven and earth to find a ghost surplus, forced a wedge between employers and workers, taken an axe to productivity and, above all else, they have shattered most people's confidence.

More worrying than this, they have achieved this appalling result in less than five years.

And the likes of you Belly question me about whether or not they have earned the right of the people to hold office for another term.

They have a trophy case full of failed policies, yet you and your supporters think they deserve another chance to redeem themselves.

I just dont get it.

At what point do even the likes of you decide when enough, is enough.
Furthermore, do you honestly think the next five years under labor will be any different.

In fact, if they were a race horse, they would be glue by now. If they were corporate CEO's, at best, they would have been sacked, at worst, some of them would be doing time.

Butch I did not say mobiles would crash, i said they have to come to ground sooner or later. meaning. a mobile is fed into a landline at the nearest entry point. At the moment the signal is being bounced from one relay to another to find an entry point.
You will benefit from the NBN. So you don't particularly care if the rest dont.
The outback is full of big holdings, with kids, no telephone, no tv. That is not bringing the city to the outback, that is bringing people and business into the 21 st century.
I am all right, bugger the rest.

CORRECTION - it is now 48 hours and we are now have 5 boats with more than 300 welfare for lifers.

Is anyone except the Government stupid enough to believe that is a slowing down of the boats.

It is quite interesting, no true, very descriptive of the standard of debate here.
I can and have called Gillard unfit to rule.
Reminded some I still idolize, right wing power brokers, on my side, they have trashed my party.
12 clear months before the NSW state election, named the filth as? filth!
Called for, an unneeded act, a boycott of NSW ALP as the first step in healing my party.
How many threads against the HSU? Gillards complacency in the Scandal WRONGLY CALLED THE AWU one.
Those two grubs actually had the Union call in the police on them.
Rechtub and others suck it up, think I have it right!
But let me point out the lies, refer to rechtub and Banjos list, almost every point a fairy story.
I am a fool.
And of most interest to me, I clearly predicting a victory for THEIR SIDE, near landslide?, see Hasbeens comments.
And posting links, telling of the very real trouble Abbott is in, IN HIS OWN PARTY I find me branded some thing along the lines of mindless bigot or too fixed to understand.
Now that is funny!
OLO needs the folk who have left in recent times, it too needs the ROberts the balanced but insistent Liberals.
We[the ALP] have made a mess of a few things, Gillard and Swans finger prints all over them, not using Nehru before the report, not giving Abbott every thing he wanted to put him on the block.
The peoples meeting, glad it never got a start, cash for clunkers and Grocery and Petrol sites huge joke.
Yes we sent SOME $900 checks over seas but failed to flog the public service for it.
Government got in the way of pink bats, no union has other than minor membership there.
It failed in only some cases wrong contractors,
continued

OK! fair cop! it was me, I am guilty as charged forever a true believer, ALP tattooed on my bottom Union on my heart.
Pure Filth to some.
Yet unlike every single Liberal/Conservative here, who year after year REFUSE to highlight the problems on their side.
I DEMAND BETTER FROM MY SIDE.
Not even bothering to read links,saying if they are not pro Abbott they are wrong?
Surely we are all laughing?
What Australian does not want better, who of us thinks every one on one side is a worthless grub ?
But a saint on the side they follow?
It is not football, this is out life!
So put me on the chopping block.
This is what I think is about to happen before a full term election
Abbott will be replaced, then as her leaning post gos and past threatens Gillard may too.
Only the pride of those who hijacked my party, and the future plans to lead post decimation, are keeping her there.
I convinced Labors policys are better will vote Labor.
I and many more, will suffer greatly under an Abbott PM ship.
So rechtub I will still buy you a beer but lets keep the conversation to NRL!
Broncs should be much better but the cashed up Dogs are not push over, until the salary cap rules get them.

Mr Abbott on a tight rope, now that is a picture. Will he fall off, or will he hang by his fingertips for a little while.
Turnbull is waiting to catch Mr Abbott, should he fall.
Govt policies must over-rule an opposition with no policy's.
The opposition have eggy stuff all over the place with their campaign on the carbon tax.
The most negative opposition of all time, for what betterment.
Can't even stand up for their own voters in the wheat belt, it's about time those voters sought better voting practices.
Mr Abbott continually having to excuse himself for female denigration.
The man has an ingrown malice toward the farer sex

The Australian National University (ANU) has surveyed more than 2,000 people across the country about their perceptions of corruption and ethical conduct in the public sector.

More than 40 per cent of those surveyed believe the level of corruption is on the rise in Australia.

The results show broad mistrust of political leaders.

One in three people believe the Federal Government is corrupt and only one in five believe that governments can usually be trusted to do the right thing.

The media and trade unions were also viewed as the most corrupt institutions.

That goes for labor, liberal and greens.

Oh dear, here we go again !
Belly comes up with today's plaint.
579 appears and regurgitates all sorts of nonsense.
Rehcub responds, but 579 has erected a firewall between commonsense
and himself. He just cannot hear you Rehcub,

Round and round it goes.

Here again are my tuppennworth.

1. Oppositions, including labour, do not publish their plans till near election.
2. The government says, they have no plans.
3. The Indonesians cannot refuse entry of Indonesian vessels and crew.
4. The nationality of the passengers is irrelevant.
5. The NBN is failing to get sufficient numbers of connections.
6. Mobile phone towers are linked on uWave bearers.
7. Julia does not just lie, she misleads parliament.
8. Martin Ferguson admits the govt has no idea how much nat gas we will need if petrol is short.

Thats enough, let us all go back to sleep.

Philip That has been the case since i have been voting at least.
The non unionist's are likely to say that.
The libs say that about labor.
The labor say that about the libs.
That is public opinion.
Do you have a solution to rectify the situation, if there is one.
On voting day you are obliged to vote, so you have to put public opinion aside, and make up your own mind.

Belly as usual you are all over the place.

You begin your post saying that Butch's and my critisisms of Labor are nothing but fairy tales and the you admitt to gross failings of this government. Pink bats, school halls, clunkers, grocery watch, petrol watch, all failures not to mention the $900 give away. But there are many more, green schemes and green loans and solar hot water things and more. Over 50 in all. Hey,I haven't even mentioned the illegals debarcle. Labor now would not be facing a deficiet if they had not stuffed that up and your preferred PM Rudd did that. Good work!

You are right to critisise Labor because they have stuffed up big time. Even a former labor president and Union leader is now facing heaps of charges. That was your union Belly and I think a bloke like you should disown the lot, like Warren Mundine, not renew membership, he is disgusted with all of them. Shorten said corruption was rare in unions, yet now we have the HSU, AWU and the CFMEU all involved in scandals alledging fraud. Not the first time either and I seem to recall unions smashing their way into Parliament House wrecking and thieving stuff. Now they are thieving off the members and workers. These are Labor mates, good blokes to have running the country. This is where Labor gets its parliamentarions from, no business background, no wonder they stuff up.

I am disgusted, like Mundine, and am ready for an election anytime. I haven't started to rip into labor yet.

579, if you can rise above your hatred for me, and read my post, you would have seen that I care more for our nation, than my personal wealth.

As I say, the bush is cheaper for a reason. I pay $300 per year in rates out there, compared to $2600 elsewhere.

I can't believe you sit there time and time again, believing we are in great shape.

You believe that just because the official unemployment rate is around 5%, that that's great, yet even you should know those figures are fudged, as 1 they regard just one hour per week as employed, and 2 they don't reflect the number of under employed out there.

Believe me when I tell you we are in trouble.

Why else would they be dropping int rates to all time lows.

What is happening now is a result of labor's poor management, their slashing of confidence and of cause the uncertainty of what we do next to attack the illegals debacle THEY CREATED .

As I said before, get your head out of the sand and have a good hard look around.

And Belly, labor, if for no other reason, should be sacked for the mess they have created with the illegals.

It will make the pink bats mess look like a simple spelling error in comparison.

In fact, it has the potential to break us as a nation, especially with labor's softly softly approach.

Banjo/Bazz I respect both you blokes but not all your opinions in this matter.
Philp S lurches in to other subjects, nothing to do with the thread, many I agree with.
579, as usual, is fixed in his/her opinions, no room to move.
Banjo, in your last post you PROVE ME RIGHT.
My union is not the HSU, no do not go there, in a confused way you have wrongly branded me liar before.
The AWU scandal? crimson hell bloke, two grubs, assisted it seems by Gillard, set up a false front, using the AWU name to thieve.
On it being uncovered the union informed the police.
How can you blame the union.
HSU CRIMINALS in no way can be put in Labors basket!
Have you any evidence Labor knew the bloke is a maggot?
Election is by ballot of every member not a hand picked power brokers gift.
Banjo you do not know it all.
Do not Google, tell me now who was John Howard,s Deputy PM who left under a cloud over AWB?
Who left after lieing about children over board, hint, his son booked up near $50.000 on dads phone, dad paid when it came to light.
Who was the Liberal holding a gun in photos taken in Iraq doing the wheat exports thing.
What is the basis for the current wheat differences from WA and the eastern states.
Answer them as I drew them, instantly from my knowledge then tell me I am all over the place.
60% WANT Turnbull, that is many more than Labor voters, in fact it is three thirds of this country.

Belly,
The AWU was your union and some officials was ripping off employers in the name of members. Williamson was federal president of the ALP so directly connected with the ALP.

So if you want to compare stuff ups and wrong doings, how far back do you want to go? What about Grazzby who brought us multiculturalism, Cains and Morosey, The loans affair. Maybe not a good idea to go back too far, Remember Big Mal lost his pants, but hat was a personal matter like most of the items you posted, not a government stuff up. Best stick to say the last 5 years, can't see anything the opposition has done that cost us.

I do not see any reason why the Libs should be concerned at present with them polling 53% to labors 47%.

An election anytime would be welcome.

Tell you what, old fella, the sooner an election the sooner you get opportunity to see Abbott stuff up as PM and the ALP can rebuild and form government again. Hopefully with far better politicians than they have now. Something for you to consider, but the gamble is that an Abbott lead government may just not stuff up. If a liberal team form good, responsible government, Labor likely be in the wilderness for a long time.

By now the thread takes its OLO habitual dance
Clearly proving if your words suit my view they are good.
If not they are wrong/silly/evil.
From the deep trench of defending every thing Liberal, trashing every thing Labor, we gain nothing.
Few, you can bet on it, know the old AWU, stunned in the light of non-compulsory unionism, having bowel movements in fear of reform.
Amalgamated, now I love still both todays AWU and that old one.
But know of no, except Bill Ludwig in QLD, AWU leader who survived that take over.
The fraud thing, by two crimes, was before todays AWU.
Fairness, evidence, honesty, see,s no dirt stick to, or be laid at the door of the AWU.
A symptom however is here, for some if the Negative man said Labor was holding rituals, killing Baby,s, he would find followers who believed it.
When will Abbott,s Rabbits, in the house, talk of the current QLD/VIC/NSW criminal acts?
The gift, of 120 million, to packer, helped by a Labor refugee, he headhunted, and Barry the holder of a giant lead, who is patently not using it for the good of the state.
When will we talk about those states holding up so much, ruining so much, in support of our worst ever opposition leader.
Could have posted a well put together link saying Hockey will replace Abbott if he falters.
From the frying pan in to the fire that silly thought.

Ah Belly, it's funny how you hang yourself when you say things like 'worst ever oppersition leader' , when that fellow, until just recently
, has been leading your leader in the polls.

Even now,his popularity vote has only dropped because madam PM hs managed to make some mud stick with the sexist attack.

Hardly what I would consider as a reason to not vote for a leader, unless of cause we want political correctness to reign supreem in this country.

As I said earlier, the next election will be very negative as labor have a big fat zero to defend.

They ha e wasted our savings, wasted our income and are now wasting our futures.

BRING IT ON so we can restore some confidence and stability in this great nation once again.

Butch and others are confusing state issues with federal issues. As a nation we are doing exceptionally well. No matter what you see around you. Some areas have higher unemployment than others, that can not be taken as a whole. Some people may only work a few hours a week, that may be their plan. Not all want to work full time.
All time low interest rates, is another form of stimulus, to keep things on track. Not good for people with money in the bank, but you can not have it all ways.
Butch it is not my make up to hate anyone. I just think you say things that are specific to yourself and don't worry about the wider community.
Abbott is a sexist and can-not help it. It's a continual battle to refrain from sexist remarks.
Mr Abbott's popularity has dropped because people have realized what you see is what you get. Is what you see good.
Wasted savings and wasted incomes, I refer you to Mr Newman for his cost of living pledge.

579, if low interest rates are a stimulus, as you say, why then is the property market flat and why is business contracting and sacking workers, as opposed to expanding and hiring in record numbers.

As for CN he is doing what has to be done, fixing labor's utter abuse of our public purse.

He will turn QLD around, but, when jobs have been created out of incompetence, to a point where they are simp,y unaffordable, something has to be done, and fast.

Put simply, we are living way beyond our means and someone has to put a stop to it, as labor, both federally and in Qld can't and could not fix the mess they created, THROUGH BOOM TIMES in the mining industry.

As for thinking I am all for myself, you must be dilutional to read that from my posts.

In fact, you are simply caught up in your self belief and unfortunately, when you do wake up and see what's actually happening here, the fall will hurt as you will be dropping a long way.

Brace yourself!

UPDATE - Now 6 boat loads of welfare for lifers in only 3 days total now in excess of 429 people WE THE TAXPAYER HAVE TO SUPPORT.

6,000 since August alone, most will end up in Australia because there is no room on the Islands.

SCORE smugglers 6,000 Government about 50 returned home, not a good record.

Anyone still want to vote this pack of incompetent clowns back into power.

Butch you are in a state of mind. The property market is overvalued by 50%. Securing a mortgage while prices are high and interest rates low is a recipe for disaster, for the unwary.
Low interest rates benefits the ones who have established mortgages.
My self belief is AU is doing very well, given world turmoil, everything is subject to change, but i will not predict any misfortune.
CN before and after election was astounding, as in NSW a little bookwork can have its effects.
Boom times are all for the gina's and Palmers. How does that relate to the rest of us.
Lets not get into panic mode, when there is nothing to panic about.
The coalition will slash and burn public servants to fund their welfare for the well heeled, is that the way to go.
This opposition have lost the lib values, and are in a chaotic mess.
Why go against their own kind in the wheat trade.
That is blatant narkism.

'Anyone still want to vote this pack of incompetent clowns back into power. '

Unfortunately about 50 per cent if you believe the polls. The same 50% who will riot in the streets like they do in Greece after being destroyed by the policies they elected Governments like ours to follow.

Well flat as a pancake!
My little effort to coax some insightful remarks about possible problems within the coalition camp.
You would not invite too many who have so far contributed to this thread to sit in a dispute resolution meeting.
That require,s special skills.
The ability to see your sides wrongs.
To understand the others wrongs, but too, needs, an important start.
Opening is always [in good meetings] a pledge to treat each side with respect.
Understanding, and Honesty, any breach both sides ask the perpetrator to leave the table.
Do we all understand? just look at Phillip s contributions.
See the clear intent, to take the conversation away from its path.
But too, to avoid that both sides, yes true, are letting this country down, by not stopping or at least trying to,the boats in an open extended sitting of both houses of Parliament.
Can we agree, or are we afraid of truth, Gillard and Abbott are disliked, very much so, not trusted, and only the fact each are unworthy to hold the job they do, prop the other up.
I doubt even that.
But by refusing to even consider the faults of BOTH PARTY,S we except poor standards from them all.
I will vote Labor, here and in Parliament, in the mouths of Pyne Hockey Bishop and Abbott, I see little regard for truth and honesty.
Still less for policy,s that advance Australia.

Belly - You started the thread attacking Abbott and what you think he will do - others and myself have in turn pointed out the that possibly even though Abbott may not be the best at present he is in some peoples opinion a better alternative than the INCOMPETENTS & LIARS we have at present.

A number of people including myself have posted things that this present Government have done horribly wrong, no you want to attack these people.
If you can't stand people putting an alternate view to the one you have something is wrong.
You can't expect to have a whole thread about the wrongs of Abbott without others pointing out what we have at present is to some FAR WORSE.

Legislation is at hand that may go somewhere to fix the que jumpers.
Lets not forget it was Abbott that would not allow the Malaysia solution. He insists Nauru will fix it. of course that fix is outdated long ago.
Living in the past is not good for anyone.
You think Abbott should be given a go even though since he has been opposition leader he has not talked politics. No policies means no direction.
That situation is dangerous, but you want to hand over power to a dictator. He has not shown any bi-partisan move at all. And you want to trust him.
Your opinion is strictly yours, I do not see that as a good idea.

Well Belly, I am disappointed to see you repeating Gillards sexist slime.
There is no evidence for it at all, yet you have repeated it a number
of times. I just did not comment because it was just the party line.

Abbott started the sexist slime, Gillard boxed his ears over it.
He has had a few more cheap shots since, and had to make quality apologies.
Sexism is in his nature, and will never be removed.

Bazz , a junk comment and untrue, you lack understanding.
Philip s let me be clear, you, your style of posting,are one of the reasons I am considering my future here.
You just rant untruths, divert subjects, and blindly follow your own paths.
I fear for OLO.
In truth the swaggering anything Labor does is wrong words, of SOME who lack the ability to understand how silly their own words are is threatening.
Note those who are no longer here, some of our best.
The red necked blindness that comes out in your words about the boats needs addressing, I repeat red necked blindness.
First Labor bought this about, no defence.
Second TRUE, it will take both sides to fix it.
Abbott DOES NOT WANT TO FIX IT.
Three Gillard is less than wise, less than sharp, she should have given Abbott his TPV,s every thing he wanted except ruining our relation ship with Indonesia.
WHY? Gillard the lost fool she is should know it would help shift Abbott to letting us use Malaysia.
AND I support the INSTANT sending home of every Ceylon arrival.
Philip, nothing you can say will let me see you other than I do, after this thread, would you mind not useing my name or refering to my posts.
I have left before, but make this promise, I go next time forever.
Not asking for a Labor friendly site, it would be nice however if some did not consider the biggest single party by vote in this country as vermin.
Those who do? keep the dog chained up if he/she leaves home the average IQ will drop in that house by 15 points.
POST SCRIPT
It has been historic fact the ALP has a bigger vote than Liberals on their own.
Post Dillard and her hijackers it will be again.

Belly - Quote "You just rant untruths" If that is a fact why not point out what is wrong.
Diverting topics possibly but usually because someone else had a comment that may have been off topic, Live with it it will happen.
Quote "Philip, nothing you can say will let me see you other than I do, after this thread, would you mind not useing my name or refering to my posts." Request denied, after all don't you believe in freedom of speech or does that only apply when people agree with you.

Congratulations Juliar they have just found 3 more boats that makes it 9 boats in 3.5 days, who was it that said they had slowed the boats down he needs to see a psychiatrist.

What an excellent job you and your cronies are doing protecting our borders, forget the fact that every single boat costs taxpayers MILLIONS of $ which you could have spent looking after needy Australians.

I in starting my last two threads had two things in mind.
In ALP faceless men I thought it vital, to put my lifetime love for both Unionism, and MY ALP on display.
And lost mates from both groups.
It needed however to be said.
The blinding term *Solidarity* demands it not be said, that truth be avoided.
Yet that ignores not just the cheap shots we see here, it remember is seen noted and remembered by our members.
I live under the tree, looking up at those who have climbed it, and lost contact with us at the bottom, and yes we received what can be expected from tree dwellers, by just standing below.
My expectations? like great numbers in my party I fear the peak of two icebergs.
A forgetfulness of our reason to exist, and the blindness our maggots will not return to haunt us.
Unions? we have too many.
The true leftist unions are only leftist in the management teams, using membership to push left policy,s, ignoring more and more workers are voting conservative, uninterested in militancy.
Do not talk of Abbott! fix our nest first!
ALP the child of but not property the Union movement.
One big Union , no better name and tradition than the AWU.
But look at the HSU, IF A SINGLE CURRENT OFFICER IS ELECTED IT HURTS US ALL.
So are we better for opening the puss filled thing NSW and the dumping of a first term HERO?
Or do we plow on regardless of public opinion.
Unions, there is a difference, I have seen officials put their hands in there own pocket, to buy a prize and raise near 30.000 for a child very ill and dieing.
And much more.
So we see them painted by Thomson, NOT YET CHARGED with anything.
And HSU layed at our door, BECAUSE WE REWARD unions with such seats.
Only the best should serve, the only party that cares for those in need.
Continued with this threads reason to exist.

The standard of political debate, in the western world ,Australia, and here in OLO, is poor.
We will know by nightfall if Obama is back.
But look at the similarity's there and here, he we are told is not American, a Muslim plant.
Forgetting the GFC he is blamed for debt that has been building for years.
Lies and miss truth are current currency.
Here my words about my team are consumed like tea cakes.
But post links reminding that not me, but Australia, dislikes Abbott?
HONEST TWO SIDED DEBATE does not now exist.
Look truly look, at philips contribution.
Yes the boats MUST BE STOPPED Gillard seems not to wish to,BUT ABBOTT clearly does not want them stopped!
A WARNING, WE, EACH OF US FEED BAD POLICY'S AND WORSE POLITICIANS, IF WE COME HERE TO DEFEND THE INDEFENSIBLE.
Turnbull is no threat, if elected he will win three terms, I HATE THAT!
But my party, unwilling to admit it, treads not water, but rides on Abbott,s shoulders.
His negativity has been noted he is unelectable.
In refusing to openly debate the true state of Australian politics the only chance the ALP has Abbott is being propped up.
And in seeing the views of only one side we except the third best policy's from the third best politicians.

Ok Belly, how about you tell us just three things labor have got right, in their five odd years in office.

But remember, simply passing legislation, without being able to successfully implement it is not something one should crow about.

You started this thread giving no regard for the utter mess your lot have created, yet you expect the rest of us to simply put that aside and focus on Abbott.

579, remember, Nauru was a suggested solution by Abbott about four years ago and, had this pig headed woman listened, things may have been better.

But no, she knew best.

The problem was that every single thing theynhad touched, they stuffed, so in her usual pig headed way, she dare not go back on her plan.

Now, billions of dollars latter, the likes of you have the hide to say it's all Abbotts fault.

On another note, I see the PM is now using the line ' we are in great shape COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE WORLD'.

So, you put ten fat kids in a race, one wins, but it doesn't mean he is a good runner, he's just better than the other nine. GET IT!

Housing overinflated by 50%.

Housing has come off, no doubt, but people still need somewhere to live. Values will never drop by 50%, unless of cause you find a very isolated case.

The housing market is weak because of the incompetence we have in government as they have taken an axe to confidence.

As for boom times, what I mean is the governments caused this mess while receiving record revenue from the mining industry and the flow offs it created.

In QLD alone, since 2000 the labor government received huge revenues from the GST, stamp duties on housing boom and mining, yet, we are broke.

Yet the likes of you keep supporting them.

Labor voters must wear blinkers as they are nearly all the same.

Phillip, about $12 million/boat.

Keep up the good work, cause the labor followers need to be reminded EVERY SINGLE DAY of the mess they help support.

Belly - Abbott you say does not want the boats stopped wrong he does BUT he does not want Labor getting the credit for doing it, every boat that arrives cost labor votes the people are sick of it. Just like Indonesia say they want it stopped but they let them into the country knowing full well what they are going to do, BUT Juliar has not got the balls to raise this issue with them.
Indonesia can stop them easily at the airport THEY DO NOT WANT TO they are like Labor they only want to appear to be doing something.

Indonesia has approx 100,000 welfare for lifers there who are wanting to come to Australia. That number plus the others on the way is the DEATH of welfare for future generations of our children.

These welfare for lifer come to Australia here is one reason why
"In Germany refugees are provided with lodging, food parcels and clothing vouchers worth €184 ($226) as well as €41 in pocket money each month." COMPARE THAT WITH WHAT WE GIVE THEM.
It is the fault of the Government to fix this golden handout for life.

Butch All legislation has been implemented, Stimulus spending had nothing to do with legislation.
Naru was never going to work again, Malaysia was the new plan, but Abbott would not support that. It was blatant narkism.
Consumer confidencae is a world wide problem, to confine it to AU is a liberal verbal assault.
Doesn't the market set the housing prices, You can't blame that on any govt; The only thing that will drop the cost of housing is , don't bye any.
Philip You are on about something that is in parliament now, it will be interesting to see if the noalition will vote for it or not.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/as-the-coalition-knows-there-is-a-long-history-of-costing-opposition-policies-20121107-28xbo.html
Rechtub tell me your thoughts on my link above,get the young bloke, his only defense, Philip s to do so.
Let me first tell you both how you will see it.
You will say it is wrong for Treasury to look at the figures.
Both of you, yes both will not ask a simple but telling question.
*Is the review of this right? dos that matter*
Rechtub, you seem so very sure of your self but I will tell you what we got right.
Despite Gillard and her high jackers these achievements make me proud.
NDIS,NBN, pension increases, getting rid of work choices, Carbon[the sky is falling] tax.
Seat in the UN saying sorry, re look at Nelsons speech in reply.
85% of the building the schools, the pink bats, the $900 hand outs,
Attempts, stalled by Abbott, to give small business tax cuts.
Rechtub, your posts ALWAYS, get heated and snotty nosed at me, and others, for rejecting your views, food stamps, cutting wages, a host of red neck notions not shared by most, IN ANY PARTY.
I CHALLENGE YOU, to find any representative numbers in real life who, should I use the word? well yes THINK like you.
Mate watch the unfolding months before the election changes we find imposable today are takeing place.
An Abbott lead coalition is beatable, not by my actions or words, you seem to think that.
He is worn and torn by his negativity and remote relation ship with truth.

I am more than just happy with the return of Barack Obama.
But for those of us with some depth of understanding of politics a lesson is to be learned.
Extremism, lives within all party,s.
And this time the tea party poisoned Republican candidate, from the start and in fact the Republican party.
This took place here in Australia.
Only the flying peanut Joe, stopped John Howard,s first run, he in all truth would have won much earlier.
Labor has its internal extremists, and externally it is linked to the greens.
I have held firmly to my claim Labor can not win.
This however is based on Gillard continuing to lead, running the full electoral term.
And a firm belief Turnbull is on the verge of leading again.
Have enjoyed this thread, the shear bloody mindedness of some, the fallacy's sold to some by Mr Negativity leaves hope my shares in the Mountain made of Diamonds up the back remain a salable item.
Good fun but sadly the standard of debate is suffering.
Hang on!polling was spot on right from day one.

4.5 days and we are up at 11 boats possibly 12 in excess of 500 people in 4.5 days. Juliar please leave or resign.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-election/defeat-for-a-man-of-contradictions-20121107-28y50.html
This link too has some merit, for those of us who wish to observe and understand, not craft, politics.
I saw a real Danger to Obama in Romney.
Thought a chance existed he could win, right up to mid way in to the count.
This link, accurately, shows how the man re made himself, many times during the election campaign.
He swapped policy's and stances, pro then anti many things.
While on record for wanting to keep tax,s down for the wealthy,he tried selling himself as middle class friendly.
A comparison can be made with Liberals here, and the impersonation we are seeing of the real Tony Abbott.
He is not and never has been, the person we see on display.
The above poster,is here on record, in this thread BOASTING!
Abbott does not want to stop the boats,BECAUSE IT WILL HELP DEFEAT LABOR.
A uniquely honest statement!
An opposition leader, one truly able to both see the damage, and instantly win the election in advance.
Say Turnbull.
Would this morning use Gillards miss placed self assurance against her.
And make this public offer.
A sitting of both houses of Parliament, open and honest, to get a solution to this problem, leaving all bias out side the door.
It however has become the single policy of ABBOTTISM and its followers to complain but stall resolution on every matter.
Move over Milt, another empty head on its way to a pike near you., hopefully Gillards next.

I was not aware that the elections for the US House of Reps and Senate
were being conducted at the same time as the presidential election.
There was never a mention of those elections.
I thought those elections were two years offset to the presidential election.

This I think points up a major fault in the US constitution.
The direct representatives of the people should be the most important
and the president should come second.

No wonder they have so much trouble with getting legislation through.

Bazz not quite, America in this single matter comes closest to us, not very.
It has a half senate and other house election on the day the President is elected.
Then the one you refer to, a half term election.
Once, when things got out of step, I think we had a half senate election on its own, may be wrong.
I bought a link to post here, it failed.
But this I think issue, you would as I am, be heartened by it.
Available still in Google news, top right hand corner.
It in depth talks of the Republican defeat, [note I in no way think it can happen here]
What I like the most is the defeat of the extremist within that party.
And that it is being said, even by planks of that party, that they cost it victory.
Candidates for the Presidency, from Republicans Tea Party right, slurred that Romny was a? MODERATE!
Yet he, flexible policy's and thoughts hard to pin down on any issue, is far from that, he came much closer than most know.
This country one day, will be better for the last sight of politicians who say any thing to be elected then do not deliver.

Ok Belly, it's fair to assume that the coalition will have to increase taxes, otherwise, how else do you propose we can plug the holes created by this, what has to be, the worst, most incompetent government in modern history.

Even the experts apparently say the GFC did not effect us that much.

Or, are you going to suggest they have done a wonderful job?

School halls - failure!

Insulation - failure!

Need I go on?

Of cause the alternative is we can sit back and let these incompetent fools cut funding to many things we rely on, otherwise, how else do you suggest we stop this illegals debacle.

Put simply, they caused it, but can't fix it and, given it's the worst ever policy in modern political history, what make you think they deserve more time and millions, if not billions more to throw at it.

I say it's time for them to MAN UP and step aside.

579, IR and compliance overload is what has most effected confidence, especially in business, and it is business that provides the bulk of the jobs, and disposable money.

Disrupt their confidence and you reduce consumer spending, as people don't like to spend money unless they are confident they can replace it.

They simply dont have this confidence any more.
However, I can assure you that if we adopted similar IR laws to the US, the jobs would start to roll out. Which simply puts a hole in your global theory.

Butch you can not compare the US and here. Two completely different ways of working.
Consumer confidence is down all around the world. The US is hit with consumer confidence. Employ as many as you like but if no one byes your goods, you are rooted.
Do you mean H&Safety, or red tape.
The GFC was taken care of with stimmulous.
The libs will increase taxes for no other reason than plugging their own black holes.
Ask the schools if there was any failures.
We are heading for a surplus, so why is their need to increase taxes.
Remember all that wasted money, you keep talking about, now you are saying ripping money out of things we need.

Belly, there was not a peep about their elections amongst all the
flood of TV & radio blasted out.
Probably, their local newspapers may have coverage but I saw Fox & CNN
and they never mentioned other than the presidential election.
We were hosed with all that guff, which we did not need or want.
My son told me that we get all that coverage because it is free.

Abbott will have to cut back very substantially on all programs.
There is no choice or we will be following along behind Ireland, Greece
Spain etc. I doubt very much that we can fix our debt problem in time.
There seems to be a consensus that world wide the economies are
slowing to an extent driven by the Chinese slowdown and governments
will have to make choices of borrowing more or paying out less in entitlements.
That same consensus suggests that next year will be the crunch year.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/uselection/article/1284536--u-s-election-win-for-barack-obama-is-existential-crisis-for-american-right-wing
Bazz thought your level of understanding would be better than Rechtubs.
I knew, at about age 13 how the American electoral system works.
Truth is our media,very often, does not know or need the facts.
Some reporters, too many, will still not know why it surprised them.
However I have set out the truth.
Rechtub, you should swim at the shallow end of the pool?
Rude? yes but remember you, CONSTANTLY challenge my understanding, while evidence clearly points to you not knowing much.
Bazz/Rechtub,our debt is, gee except it as truth PLEASE!
Not good but not back breaking.
Abbott's successor, can, maybe will, cut without it being harsh, and get us back on to near debt free.
Labor can too.
We are in the very good position of not being broke or near it.
The link, will not stay long first one seems gone, is education.
It fills me will warm happiness.
Not, now think first, of the defeat of my natural enemy's the Republicans.
But because of the CRUSHING DEFEAT OF THE EXTREMIST TEA PARTY.
Consider 80% despite party, think and want the same.
Leaving room for those who do not think at all.
IF Republicans are,and they will, to regain the leadership it will be without the screaming red necks minority.
Consider an Australia, without the extremes right and left, greens, now tell me if you dare we would not be better for it.
579, I travel your road, respect you,but your fixed nature make you of not more use than a few on the other side.
Problems are best fixed not swept under the carpet.
And you will not get results than are worth your tangles with rechtub.

Belly, the debt is not as much a problem, as how we got there and, where we started from when labor took the reins ONLY FIVE YEARS AGO, NOT FIVE DECADES AGO.

Now given the mess they have created with the illegals debacle, it's plain outright scary to think where we could be in another five years, as it's pretty obvious they don't have a solution other than to send people to a country where public whipping still goes on and human rights simply dont exist. Surely this is no better than turning the boats around.

579, keep dreaming.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/prime-example-of-how-our-politics-is-polluted/story-e6frezz0-1226513231346
This link is not Labor friendly.
In fact it comes from this mornings Sydney Telegraph, once, hard to believe the Labor Daily.
In no way a balanced paper it sells its owners power and privilege path.
But for that very reason I post it, it shows a future I would embrace, the people choosing the leaders, the death of power brokers.
What a great day that would be!
And too, struggling to get the words out in regard to Abbott, it confirms under such a system, both leaders never would have lead, harsher on Gillard, kinder to Abbott.
But in truth both are better equip to serve Coffee and scones to our leaders at a cafe down the road than the jobs they hold.
Rechtub, it is my fault, I forgot you never heard of the GFC.
How very much better we came out of it,how almost every country too tried to spend their way out of it.
I forgot, briefly, I am debating with a man who wants truth held at bay.
Are you related to 579?
Fear, if you must a Labor victory,but unless it is Rudd who leads, preferably against Abbott, you are creating a monster that exists only in your mind.

Now given the mess they have created, Abbott insisted on Nauru, he got Nauru. So what happened. Nauru was never going to work any more. Nauru is a solution of the past. Malaysia was blocked by the noalition for no other reason than to force an election, along with Slipper and Thomson.
Butch speaks with fork tongue, He doesn't want them here, and doesn't want them where they have public floggings.
Our deficit is small, unemployment is ok 19,000 full time jobs added last month. All we hear about is when someone shuts up shop. Just as many are taken up as what is being lost. Mining robbed industry of employees and these are still being replaced. A lot have tasted mining life and are returning, to an extent the miners are wanting to employ from overseas.
I honestly think your gripes are not there, unless you have state issues.

Ah here we go again, blame it on the GFC.

Now while I accept the GFC may have required some spending, it's the waste that worries me, as had the money been wisely spent, and project after project, or should I say 'brain fart' after brain fart not been a miserable failure we might just have been able to save funding for the likes of health, defense etc.

Labor are economic vandals who have stripped the confidence out of all but the loyal followers and the best they and their beloved followers can come up with is the GFC.

If only those half whit inderpemdents had gone with their heads and not thier hearts, much of these stuff ups WOULD HAVE been avoided.

There's a chance that Rudds mess could have been tidied up, but when Gillard simply took up where he left off, it was down hill from that point on.

History will show this as being the worst ever government.

All available household money is going into mortgage repayments, while the going is good.
There was a GFC which caused a lot of disruption around the world, but not here. Our economy was stimulated, so we would not suffer the same fate as is still the case overseas.
The NBN is progressing well. this will transform the nation as a whole. Everybody will be equal in communication and services.
Low interest rates low inflation, low unemployment, 95 billion in the futures fund, not bad for a mob of economic vandals.
If Gillard and her mob of incompetents ever got their act together, this could be a great place.

Belly said amongst a lot more;
Bazz/Rechtub,our debt is, gee except it as truth PLEASE!

I have read that post a couple of times and I can't get a handle on what you are saying.
I think the man best for the US won in the end, but we did not need
the massive coverage of the day to day story for the last year.

Trouble is both of them believe that the US will become another Saudi Arabia !
True ! They do !
Their economic programs reflect that the US will be the world's
largest oil producer.
Their only real argument is how will they apply the income to the debt.

The big worry for us is that both the government and opposition
believe it also. Julia Bishop even wrote on OLO about it.
This gives them both the idea that all is back to business as usual.

Bazz fair cop! I have a problem with sentence construction.
I can see, it has been a lifetime problem, how you got confused.
The next few lines contained my thoughts.
In truth, please believe, our debt is very minor, when compared to Europe's and Americas, by percentage of gross national product.
Rechtub, the most uncharitable of us, you are not included, will know not all spent was wasted.
I grow more heartened every hour.
Those defending Abbott best serve my party!
Gillard,no better, may just win an election, IF such blindness is endemic in Liberal ranks.
Selected from multiple news headlines both here and all over the world this headline
*Can Republicans Change*
I ask this question
*Can Abbott change*
He and SOME within his party modeled them selves on Tea Party Republics.
His time to change is now, not after an election.
If you consider what I have said, and think, given Abbott can not bring back other than the man he has been from day one.
The question becomes
* Will the LIBERALS change?*
My view? yes leaders, and in so doing ensure election victory.
Humor is my best mate, here tangled like that whale calf in ropes of his own making Rechtub is defending what?
The only man who can give labor victory.
Another international headline,take note Butcher
* In the end the polls got it right!

Yes Belly, I think you let your thoughts get ahead of the keyboard.
You are right, our debts are small compared to Greece, Spain etc.
We got away from a lot of GFC strife because of China trade.
The much trumpeted stimulus lost a lot of its effect because of the
reason for the GFC which was a decline in oil supply and the resultant
rise in the cost of oil & other energies.

What economists are now starting to understand is that neither stimulus
nor austerity, cutbacks etc are now working.
This because the cost of producing energy is consuming so much of GDP.
Oil is now three times what it was pre 2005, coal is also considerably
more expensive.

Consider our present relatively good position and then withdraw the
Chinese and Japanese from the picture.
How close to a recession will we go ?
I suspect that growth would go negative, ie contraction, ie recession.
This low or zero or negative growth is PERMANENT !

Any government that considers the above cannot undertake an expansion
of spending, but must take steps to reduce spending.

So whether you are Labour or Liberal (the Greens don't count) you
have to advocate cutbacks, including or especially, public servants.

You do not have the money !

Bazz yes, it is a form of Dyslexia I have no control over.
However all those years ago, the day I walked out of a school of 13 kids, not yet a teen, I was much worse.
Every day I learn and grow, have passed some truly hard tests, including my full call, always with ease.
The truth is SOME waste always takes place.
It is the nature of public servants.
Too claims, so silly as to question the ability to understand of THE MAKERS.
That we are going to be as bad as your mentioned country,s.
In truth we are far better than America and England.
This world, the very Capitalistic system, does not run on cash, not gold, not enough exists to pay the worlds debts, of either.
Our credit rating would see ANY AMOUNT we wanted dumped in our lap.
We should, despite the coalitions screams, continue to live within our means, run in the black.
They will, no matter the costs.
Bazz, at some point you have the ability to know much of the extreme comment and acts is, well bloke Bullsh**
Again, observation by uncluttered minds can see if they look, Gillard knifing Rudd is not going away.
But Too Abbott has run out of rope, no not bias, my honestly held view.
Both leaders lean on one another.
As one sinks the other rises.
Abbott has been told to moderate his ways, two weeks ago, he tried and failed, watch him trying again.
Watch the quieter less ranting Hockey too, he knows he must return to what he was pre Abbott , because he always and still wants the leadership.
I think he over cooked the angry ant stuff, declaring 3% increase productivity was flat lining .
This election is Liberals to win, only sticking with Abbott can beat them.

Belly, hi I read the early posts and I read your outro, and (if I may contribute at this late hour), at the end of the day the one thing that AU electors need to understand is that the last thing we need (especially now) is another ideologically bent Gov't , like the Howard /Costello Gov't ,only extreme. One that will re-distribute the wealth and power to the wealthy even more, and trash workers rights in the workplace, even more.

The entire Abbott front bench is a disgrace of yes people led by a power crazed ideological sycophant !.

Malcolm Turnbull whom has complied with the toeing of the Abbott line, when it comes to the NBN, (the most important piece of public infrastructure in a century mind you), and entirely misunderstood as to it's benefits, it's capacity to withstand advances from other technology, e.g it's longevity, and the importance of the fact that it should be "publicly owned", and supplied "too the home", in order that the maximum benefit to all Australians be achieved. Turnbull is hardly PM material at this time, because he has done a good job of misinforming and confusing electors for political purposes over the NBN, (for Abbott) even if we hate Gillard.

The whole situation is analogous with the US election for mine, do we wan't O'Bama or the Tea Party ? !. Do we want lest accountability and tax for the top end of town, and more screws applied to the working poor in the guise of productivity and flexibility so called, or do we wan't fairness.

Even Gillard, is the lesser of two evils, regardless of who leads the LNP to the next election.

Thinker two while we travel together and I admire you we often differ.
Almost every thing you say here I agree with.
Not however the Turnbull issue, he has grown,
It seems to have been the plan, from day one,to adopt Tea Party tactics, for the whole opposition.
He stands out for what he truly is, not the roll he has been playing, it is my view Abbott put him in that roll to sideline him.
Remember, he has a head start, the numbers, polls do not lie.
To put other than him in the lead may cripple the coalition.
Gillard, yes I intensely dislike her, yes she survives only because she is confronted by Abbott.
But she has a chance, see the polls, of pulling it off.
She is , like every politician, an actress.
That suggests voters are mugs, some are.
Her personal problems will not go away,she beheaded Rudd, many men, and women , will not forgive her for that.
Confronted by Abbott?
Most would.
Remember, you said the election in the USA was in a way, did I get it right? like ours to come.
In my view it was,and sooner we break that link the better.
Romney, the man changed his views more than ANY ONE before during and you can bet after the election.
People bought it, he nearly won.
Side shows as in Australia, exist,as folk falling for pure lies propaganda, and idiot things.
In America about Obama being Muslim, not American, heaps, that country plants the seeds of its own National Dyslexia/fractured nature in its politics.
Abbott is not the first but hopefully the last Conservative to import tactics from the bottom of the barrel, America, Labor too must move away from madness such as that.
Thinker 2 I am in trouble, I know LIBERALS are bad for our country.
I know the filth emerging out of past Labor slugs is damaging my party.

And demand accountability.
WE just may get another term, if conservatives here are representative their do not care for accountability in their ranks.

Belly, it still comes back to the same question.

Ask not whether Abbott is able, but ask whether or not labor and Gillard have earned the right for another term.

Now as for the waste, not all was wasted, I accept that, I even accept that some ideas had merit, but the same ideas were miserably let down due to labors inability to implement, time and time again.

As I have often said, passing legislation is simp,y gaining permission, whereas implementation is the key, and even you have to admit they have failed in that area.

579, you and I come from two very different sides of the fence.

As an employer for most of my working life, I see the risks outweighing the gains in almost every area.

The days of small business are numbered.

Now you mentioned the future fund, and the stimulus. So where do you think these funds came from, as all labor have done is SPEND MONEY , not SAVE MONEY as did the Howard government.

Now I have a question for all those of you who are worried about the libs cutting jobs and taxing the big end to balance the books, amd my very simple question is;

How else do you propose WE AS A NATION go about it.

The future fund is self funding, through investment interest earned, now standing at some 95 billion $.
The libs do cut jobs, they have unemployment pools, to appease the big business. They cut services as these are seen as expenditure.
They need to fund middle class welfare, and cut company tax.
Small business will always be there as long as people bye their goods.
Online shopping is the new small business. Convenience, no parking worries, and easy.
The way we do things will continue to evolve, you cant be like a stick in the mud, year after year.
Legislation needs no selling, it is done because there is a call for it.
If policies are not accepted or the uptake is not there, then they are discontinued.
You ask if Labor has earned the right for another term, What makes you think a team with no policies and no foresight would be better.
We have not heard one policy from abbott, it's just negativity and going backwards.
How can you put trust in that.
Gillard is not perfect, but leaders come and go.
If the noalition don't get rid of Abbott, and replace with Turnbull they will not get my vote.

Rechtub, you will not let your self be aware of many truths.
And in defense of Abbott conveniently forget, you in another thread, addressing me, said he was not doing well.
Small business will never die,and its fate is , and never will, not hanging on government help.
I see unwritten requests to socialize small business losses here.
I too see loss from badly planed business that never had a product or plan to make it in any case.
This morning I bought goods for $2 each, at a market day.
Then next market 45 klm away, the same product was $8.
As I looked over the table the woman said please buy I have not sold a thing today.
Both equal in every way I emptied the first stall and walked away from the other.
New innovative ,meet the market, small business is always going to be around.
You just grew stale,found it easy to blame every one than to change., time to get out of any job/business.

It is a lie Rehctub to say the Howard Gov't saved money. They sold important profit making public assets like Telstra to show a temporary surplus.Whilst spending the drunken soldiers on middle class welfare and pork barreling.

Their ideology now effects the lives of every working Australian, whom is now devoid of any opportunity to improve their living standards in an economy where essential services pricing goes through the roof and no prospect of a wage rise compensating for that.

In essence the lives we lead now are a direct result of the policies of Howard and Costello, whom simply extracted the benefits of a golden economy left by the architect Keating and re-distributed those benefits to their mates in big business and smashed the capacity of working people to improve themselves.

That crappy buying from stalls story Rehctub is designed to perpetrate the myth that competition actually exists when it doesn't, when it comes to big business whom are operating cartels in every essential service or commodity as designed by the legislative pen
of Howard and Costello whom abrogated their responsibility to the electors to protect living standards.

Any personal affront towards Gillard or any other Labor leader pales into insignificance, when compared with the betrayal and abandonment of the Australian way of life bestowed upon us by Howard and Costello.

As is the case with all incoming LNP Gov'ts, they cook the books and overstate debt positions in order to break election promises as we see the Qld Gov't doing as we speak as pointed out by Clive Palmer. Even he detests the lack ethics the of it . Campbell Newman has sacked thousands of public servants based upon a lie, and denied Queenslanders of the Gov't he promised. All from ideology instead of intellect.

cont...

Your wrong Belly and I suspect that you have never been a Labor voter , otherwise the historical facts of Australian politics would be better understood by yourself. In fact your view reflects the blinkers on approach that LNP voters rely upon when dealing with truth.

The LNP has never been responsible for one piece of infrastructure and have stood in the way and obstructed public spending all along,throughout their history, all the way back too the snowy mountain scheme, that Menzies opposed and later tried to claim credit for.

Turnbull Shmirnbull, it just the same sh** different bucket. He will sell the NBN monopoly to big business just the same as Howard sold Telstra resulting in Australians paying the highest prices for telecommunications as we do now, in the world.

If this catastrophe can be prevented, big business will have to buy from us a product that they never be able to compete with and Australia will regain it's telecom sovereignty. And the people will receive the benefits, not some silver spoon mogel in another country.

Thinker 2 welcome, to this century not the first years of the 1900s you will find some differences.
The Comrades are gone, after killing more workers than all the wars and famines in history.
The few who remain have never worked for an honest living and never been hungry.
You make the mistake the worst of the Conservative supporters do, insulting those who do not think like you.
You are a green,I knew that on telling you my thoughts,but they too are unable to take on new thoughts.
Labor supporters, even welded on ones like me,have no choice in the Turnbull matter.
ANY LIBERAL LEADER I chose will meet with your blind condemnation, unthinking insults!
However the polls say he is the candidate.
If you want to be considered a thinker, include others thoughts in your reading of issues,are you maybe afraid my PREDICTION not orders, that Gillard confronted by other than Abbott is unelectable.
Thinker 2 Labor is my love but unlike you, I consider we must answer the questions left by Rudds knifing and a leftist Gillards installation.

Ok T2, Howard did sell assetts,against my will, esspecially givennthere were alternatives at hand.

On the other hand, today, right here, right now, what alternatives do you see we have other than to increase taxes and sell assetts, to repay this huge debt.and remember, the illegals debacle is still ongoing and, even if the libs get in, it won't stop overnight.

So what do you propose we do?

579, Nauru should have been used four odd years ago, when the numbers of illegals was not totally out of control.

Don't worry about the illegals Juliar is on the job - we have only had 950 in 18 boats in the last 10 days.
This alone is becoming a deficit buster.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/libs-reject-right-push-for-direct-election-20121110-2951c.html
This link is informative.
Those who do not live in NSW or do not look at the in depth part of politics will not know.
But both sides have power brokers.
Liberals at present to control their own left and LIBERAL factions.
Labor too to control its left and? well not sure just control while ignoring the nature of vermin like Tripoly and Obeid?
However it is my view this link not a Labor mates cone needs looking at.
I will die with two thoughts in my mind one is factions serve both party,s
That room must exist, on both sides for all opinions from that side of politics.
Including the thought Labor members too should have the right to crose the floor.
My second? who can I still vote Labor after death.
No POWER BROKERS, BOTH PARTY,S ARE IN FESTERED WITH THEM.
We must get rid of them, no party needing them, Tripoly and Obeid are ex PBs has the brain power to exist.
I unlike my opponents here, will adress not the ignored subject of this thread but the junior stone throwing at boat people next post.
However in eye to eye contact, or printed body language is telling,trying to ignore the substance, divert to other things clearly not fully under stood id a symptom of defeat.

It in my view is flaming or trolling to enter threads with the single intention to taunt another poster,I charge Phillips with that.
Another not here is as guilty and both have said nothing of substance during my years here, the other has been about for a long time.
My post history clearly gets me in trouble, even briefly sent to Coventry once, I have for many years said our Social Security system is the magnet for many boat people and MIGRANTS.
I WANT AN END TO ALL BOAT PEOPLE.
Some truths, Rudd got it wrong, but we all, every one of us here, overlook the INTERNAL WRECKERS our own people herein this country telling these folk to come, openly WASPs BACK GROUND undermining us helping the boats to come.
Abbott, here is how it goes wrong!such as rechtub and Phillips WILL NOT HEAR TRUTH!
Never wants the boats to stop until he stops them.
He wanted all or nothing.
Gillard too stopped her Minister, a jewel in Labors crown, months before the committee from using Abbott,s plan.
BOTH SIDES BETRAY US we can stop the boats MALAYSIA will not bash them, an insult to a country VITAL to our future is no answer.
Will no Liberal come forward to combat the CONSERVATIVE destruction of LIBERALISM?
Gillard I will never forget or forgive you,dance on the roof of my car the day you go.
But given the blind stupidity of todays opposition, matches that of you and those who support you.
I will vote for you.
See no one else is standing two clowns unloved disliked incomplete politicians, but what choice has this country got?

<< Turnbull Shmirnbull, it just the same sh** different bucket >>

Erm,,,,yeayus!

Trouble is; the policies or basic philosophies of both parties are just totally up the pole!

So what we are really discussing is the capability of a leader to take us strongly in the wrong direction!

It’s really quite nonsensical. What we need to resolve is how we get both parties, or at least one of the liblabs to embrace the ‘sustainable future’ cause.

Gillard talks about it, but she’s not getting Labor to approach it at all!

I thought Turnbull might take the Libs somewhat in that direction but his recent comments about immigration and Australia’s population size have totally killed that off!

We are left with no one in the Libs!

We’ve got two excellent prospects in the Labs – Carr and Thomson. So that is really where we should be concentrating our energies.

###################################################################

Belly, may I slightly prematurely congratulate you on reaching 10 000 posts on OLO!!

We started at the same time, just one day apart. So that makes you twice as mad as me… as this is my 5000th post!

Cheers ( :>)

###################################################################

Turnbull would outweigh Abbott. Abbott has taken the libs in a different direction, not even he knows where they are heading.
Abbott's only objective has failed, and is now struggling to find words.
The floor mop Bishop is a narky piece. Hockey is a makeshift treasurer.
The carbon tax has run it's course, without the sky falling in.
The welfare for the well off is awaiting implementation, at the expense of the atmosphere.
QLD fudging figures, to create unemployment and chaos.
NSW has learnt from QLD.
Vic is wreaking the Tafe system.
Vic went against one of the best politicians of all time in Brumby.
You don't know what you have until it's gone.

Ludwig I did not know that number had come up.
Visited the other day, looking for Lexis last few posts.
I wanted to try to find evidence for her leaving, still concerned about her health.It would not be possible to find any leader to fit your list, but it would be very hard to reform even here.
Say,tax reform, any party considering raising the GST, removing ALL other tax,s bar company and PAY AS YOU EARN would not be re elected.
And a government with guts to call a Royal Commission Nation wide, in to the Catholic Church and other sources of Pedophilia? may be thrown out of office.
Trying to please MOST is as near as we get to good government.
The MOST should make their views be seen and heard, not the minor groups.
Most of us would approve leaving the UNHCR to stop boats forever, others want them to continue to come to use them against others, only those with minority views win then.
Welfare Reform, try saying those who get it should be ONLY the needy not the greedy and back pocket politics will remove you.
TURNBULL! beaten by a single vote, I see a true Liberal in him, remember they removed him on one issue, Carbon tax/market pricing.
CRAP!Abbott,s view, one of them, on this issue,growing world wide action to reduce carbon signature is going to hoist the gent on his own petard, watch.

Belly, I don't think Phillip is taunting you personally, he is simply providing an update to the out of control illegals issue CAUSED BY LABOR.

So I ask again, and I will keep asking, if they (labor) can't fix it, which is obvious, why do you and your die hard labor supporters feel labor have earned the right to another term.

It's a very simple question that none of you seem willing to address, and it's going to go down in history as the worst descision by any government ever.

Put simply, it could break us, yet all this government can do is talk.

The waste continues.

Lets remember it was Abbott that blocked the Malaysia solution.
Legislation is in parliament now that takes AU off the destination for boaters. Will Abbott vote for it.
It's a longshot to blame Labor. There are wars going on and more people are on the move like never before.
Abbott favors boaters because it narks the govt; It doesn't get much publicity any more.
So be patient butch, and get plenty of sleep.

Rechtub I am baffled and just do not know what to say.
Yes I can see why you are supporting young Phil, he has to be a kid.
He said, now read, Abbott did not want to stop the boats, he wants to beat Labor, and gloated about it!
He is trying to divert the thread, you seem unaware I have answered your question at least twenty times in many threads.
Like Phil your problem is you are waiting for me to answer your question in the way YOU WANT IT.
Sorry will not happen, research, find our just what the Malaysian solution is, not from Liberal press.
It alone, is the only answer currently to stop the boats.

I notice you are stung by my comments about the LNP Belly, and if you had noticed, I am actually a rusted on labor person whom has failed to vote for the Greens up to this point.

Your refer to my pointing out of historical the fact that the LNP have never been responsible for the building of infrastructure as un-thinkable insults when the unthinkable insult is the ideology the LNP has bestowed upon Australia in it's terms in Govt.

I challenge you Belly to name one piece of public infrastructure "initiated" and built by the LNP. Particularly in recent times.

My proposition is that they are actually regressing to a place beyond the ridiculous ideology that is their foundation. The same philosophy that see's millions of people living in doorways in the US and workers having to accept tips instead of appropriate pay and conditions. And despite the sacrifices of the man on the street in the US their sovereign debt is about to swallow them as they ponder yet another bail out for the wealthy.

Finally referring to my view as outdated and using emotive terms like comrade is so last century that it is clearly a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

http://www.skynews.com.au/politics/article.aspx?id=815814
Thinker 2 like the link I post this morning a great deal of craftmans ship has gone into your post.
My words in no way defended the LNP however your charge,both that I had never been an ALP member, and that Turnbull, well you let fire without reserve so cop the results,
The link is standard Australian news reporting.
It presumes to tell us why, in its authors view, Abbott has fallen.
A construction not reporting.
It however too shows the true nature of BOTH LEADERS unwanted.
We of the ALP must not put blinkers on, now is the time for reform, not after the roof falls in.
Ignore at our peril, Conservatives have many scandals, hidden in part by them and media biased as the links writer is.
But let us all,who love the party, ensure current NSW scum , being unmasked for past acts, and the power brokers take over of Federal Labor is the turning point.
And never let out party swim in this sewage again.
Hiding it, pretending it never took place is pure murder of the ALP and gives the green light for it to take place again.

579....Lets remember it was Abbott that blocked the Malaysia solution.

Yes, and it was Rudd who caused this debacle and there is litte doubt that a good system (like the Howard solution) would have been better improved, rather than scrapped.

T2, one has to wonder just where the US would be now had they not gone to fight another's war. Same goes for us here in Oz.

Belly, new challenge, call an election.

Let's see what the PEOPLE want.

What is the rush. Another 12 months. Abbott is irrelevant now, it can only get worse.
Roll back Toni has lost the plot.
He only had one agenda, that was to force an election. Now he does not know what is going on.
No policies and you want an election. That is inviting disaster.

What surprises me about the fall in Abbotts polls is that no one seems
to consider that maybe Gillards statement that he is a misogynist is
nothing more than another Gillard lie !
After all she has got form.

Someone in Parliament accused Gillard of being corrupt and got thrown
out, yet the speaker let the PM get away with such an insult as misogynist.

Abbott has shown remarkable constraint on that but I guess he thinks
that he is in a no win situation. If he denies it, he will be accused
of attacking a woman, if he doesn't he will be said to agree with it.

If this is the way women want to run politics, perhaps we should
campaign to get all women out of politics !

Abbott got what he deserved, and i say the speaker agreed. Women in politics is here to stay. When the school girl gets action about Abbott's wall punching, we will see if it happened or not.
The wall of misery is crumbling, nothing left to offer.

T2,
The completion of the Darwin-Adelaide rail link? Continued construction of major highways?

Butch,
It was labors coalition partner, the greens, that stopped the last Malayasia scheme.

Belly, having a Royal Commission does not mean the governmet will be thrown out of office. Gillard is doing it to garner votes. It is the kids of RC parents that have suffered most and they sent the kids there in good faith. Catholics have the most to benefit. Gillard expects to gain from this.

Hi All,
I am new to the site and have been reading the last 16 pages of threads with keen interest. There is certainly valuable input from both political persuasions; except those extreme aggressive & defensive positions of both sides.
Just a few opinions to add:
Royal Commission - of course Gillard expects to gain from this, although I notice she made it 'wide ranging' so as not to make it seem like a witch hunt and upsetting the church too badly.
Julia's misogynist rant - any self-respecting modern woman must surely agree that actions like this actually set women's lib back years, not forward.
Abbott is a smart man, I will give him that, but he has way over-played his hand. Labour is now tearing him apart, piece by piece, hoping no one will notice that they too are the manufacturers of sick political spin.

ManofThe Land welcome
I think we need to have a look at this Royal commission, Banjo too kicks me in the ribs over this.
How can Gillard win out of it?
Now be fair dinkum, do we just let the next ten generations of our kids suffer?
Do SOME OF US let our selves of the hook for telling our kids to stop lying?
No country bloke I ever knew would want his kids to go though this.
Abbott is not smart he has been very wise in his way of hurling the cow dung, Aussies like that.
But he is gone!
And that is a promise not a threat, Turnbull would trample the ALP in to dust.
No Labor politician wants to hear but Gillard, way ahead of Abbott, only because they dislike him more than her.
She will never be elected again.

Spot on Belly, I'm with you on that one.

Thanks Banjo I appreciate and acknowledge your instance of the LNP's contribution but neither example meets the criteria of "initiated" and built.
And aren't the states responsible for roads ?.

Completion and continuance are not terms that describe the LNP initiating and building infrastructure only the populism that they have achieved by laying claim to it.

I did mention Menzie's opposition to the Snowy Mountains Scheme and his later claim to be responsible for it. Once it was a he could not stop it .The pattern emerges and continues.

In support of my position regarding the regression of the LNP, they now oppose by threatening to reverse progress or planning to sell off infrastructure such as the NBN even before the taxpayer has received the benefit from it.

Under Abbott they realise that once people start experiencing the benefits of carbon pricing on the environment for example, or the wonder that publicly owned super fast broadband will bring to lives of (particularly rural) citizens, their ideological arguments simply wont wash. Their power base purchased by supporting their cronies in big business will be eroded. The NBN will release the squirrel grip that Telstra and their cartel have upon Australian communications that is the legacy of Howard and Costello.

Had we elected Keating in 96 we would have already had the NBN, and the corporates would have had no choice by now but to hire superior communication systems from the taxpayer at our profit instead of the unmitigated overcharging that should have been obvious to any legislator when creating corporate essential services monopolies.

And the sector with the least power since Howard and Costello is the small business sector, all being whacked with increasing fixed running costs, such electricity and internet charges. In fact the cost of running a small business today has been made impossible by corporates factoring increasing profit margins for themselves without restraint. The only going backwards in real terms is people wages and working conditions. The LNP's solution to this is workchoices 2 the extreme version. Something they will have no hesitation re-inventing once back in Gov't.

Thank you Belly, I look forward to some hearty argument. I thought the Royal Commission would be a no brainer for Gillard because it has become inherently popular to bash the church lately. And for those who don’t like to boot them in the ribs, no one can argue with the point you have just made (i.e. who could let kids suffer) Now don’t get me wrong, I’m no church goer myself by any stretch of the imagination. But I respect the aspirations of religion generally. I guess only time will tell (perhaps as much as 10 years and God (sorry for the pun) knows how many tax payer dollars). I boldly predict that this problem in the church is nowhere near the giant proportions that many believe it is.

Thinker – I generally agree with your sentiments. Keating WAS the best PM Australia has ever seen. And Howard possibly one of the worst. May-be worst is going too far (we have that now). The main problem with Howard was that he did essentially nothing to propel the country forward in a time of economic bliss. Funny how he and Costello are always praised for their good economic management, while the failings of the current govt are often explained away by “difficult global circumstances”.
You are right to question the “big business cronies” of the libs, but the ideology of the union power base AND for that matter the extremist lefties of the ALP are no better. There is not much between them as far as I can tell; except for may be their respective answers to this question:
As a society should we be striving for EQUALITY or EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY?
I suspect labour generally aims for the former while conservatives strive for the latter.
I support the latter by the way

ManOfTheLand, I don't know how you can think Howard was our, let's say, former worst PM.

You have to remember where they ( the libs) came from, whereby they inherited what was then the highest ever debt, a debt that they finally repaid and, ended with money in the bank, albeit, at the expense of Tesltra.

They came to power in the mid 90's and within just one term, they had turned the economy around, by instilling confidence.

They also inherited a gun shy business community, thanks to the (at the time) ridiculous unfair dismissal laws, laws that once watered down, led to the boom times.

It is Business that builds nations, not governments, however business needs confidence and this has been slashed by this government.

Of cause work choices cost them dearly, however it would be fair to suggest that WC effected less than 5% of the workforce, and that would have in the majority of cases been the bottom 5%.

Of cause, they also stopped the boats.

As for Paul Keating being our best ever, I would suggest Bob Hawk was a much better PM and he also connected well with the people.

Except of cause those who hatted him for cheating on his wife.

But as if that is cause to not vote for him.

Now as for present labor, they came to power in 07 in the best shape of any incoming government EVER, then they commenced thier quest of missmanagement and wasteful disregard for the future of our nation.

They presided over failed project, after failed project, ignoring expert advice, even costing lives, and of cause, they opened the flood gates that led to the current illegals debacle.

This mess will go down in history as the worst ever policy descision.

So that is why I say, ask not whether Tony Abbott is worthy, ask whether labor deserve another shot.

Anyone who wanted a job, had one and, the word 'underemployment' was unheard of.

Of cause work

Mr Abbott says he does not want urban aborigines in parliament he wants genuine ones.
He sure knows how to cause an argument, or speaks before he thinks.

ManofTheLand you will find out soon enough I am ex union official and member of the ALP but in truth as anti true left as you.
My posts show my unhappiness with both in part, and my assurances without change Labor is gone.
You too will, have already found out /find you will be corrected on any issue.
Let our differences end at days end every time.
Afraid I want to go on record saying the opposite to you.
This RC will be catastrophic, Catholic Church by far the worst but from Aboriginal Children at home, a massive and tragic problem, to any place kids meet we have neglected for too long.
GEE how can anyone not see in my state NSW it is uncovering landslides of pain.
No gain for Labor no loss for Liberals, but a shame on those who put politics before kids.

I too welcome your contribution ManoftheLand and agree that our current PM is the worst Labor PM we have ever had.In fact is she a Labor Pm at all ?, I don't think so and I fear that Rudd will be the last.

The concern is, where do we go from here ?. We have a Royal Commission about institutional child sex abuse while we don't have a Royal Commission about police officers using tazers to execute people through incompetence and possibly unsuitability to be wearing a badge. Make no mistake there is a direct comparison between police chiefs justifying and rationalising death by excessive tazer use and cardinals covering for pedophile priests.

This new Australia where the victim is ultimately held responsible for their own vulnerability is the nanny state at work. I don't feel protected by such people running around making decisions in habits or uniforms.

The nanny state is a direct result of changes in law made by the Howard Gov't that increased the onus of responsibility upon the the individual and decreased the onus of responsibility for companies and institutions. Even less responsibility is placed upon company directors to act in the greater good. This has changed our attitudes about what it is that represents appropriate behaviour. A single mistake can become a death sentence, a single trust can smash your self belief for life and leadership condones it or covers it up.

These are not the values that my father believed in, or fought for, when he defended this country from attack.

Nor am I willing to stand by and discuss trivial distractions anymore about politics and personality when our sovereignty, our civil liberties, our individual opportunity for respect and personal betterment and our inherent right to be nurtured by our communities leaders (political or commercial) no longer exists.

The lesser of 2 evils is our only choice, it's just hard to pick who is going to be worse. We had our chance ManoftheLand and we blew it.

cont...

Personally I can only judge based upon history at this point, and history determines, that the last thing we need at this time is more of the same. And to be clear MotL the LNP in it's current form represents more of the same only much worse and Labor is the only chance of reversing the process. And not only Labor but preferably with more Independents and more Greens (if they can get a brain), holding the balance of power.

Clearly giving either party or contender absolute power, is a mistake we must not make.

The current model has functioned well with the Gov't of the day (as it should), actually implementing policy and opportunity for "narcissistic obstructionist Gov'ts in exile", (and not even very good at it), like the Abbott opposition, limited to it's rightful place.

Australian democracy still has a real chance of being the envy of the the world in my view, if we can maintain this. Critically the NBN will get up and it will be ours and Australia will be a truly advanced and changed place.

And finally to get on back topic, I notice this week that Abbott himself has attempted to re-focus the attention of Australian racism, from refugee's to aboriginals (particularly urban ones), by reminding us that we don't like them either.

How can any rusted on party political supporter justify the use of such base political tactic from their leader and still have any pride in themselves ?.

MOTL it interests me, in a thread I started, a Proud former AWU official, and proud but just, ALP activist.
You also see thinker 2 much the same, showing we Australians are much the same.
Gillard stole my party with help from power brokers and Sussex Street thugs.
Yet I hope, and I will be there, to help rebuild, IF WE UNLOAD THEM.
Abbott,we only see glimpses of the real bloke.
Thankfully.
He let the mask slip, his urban Aboriginal idiot statement.
He wants to play on the thought ,well known National party one, only the outback [true ]Aboriginal is OK.
some far too many wear glasses with Gillard in the lens, when looking at Abbott.
Unable to see past her they infer saint hood on what is not much ,more than a hood,the mad monk.
Turnbull would trample my party, but in doing so ensure no more Gillard and force true change on us.

The recent downturn in the polls for Tony, have been a result of the personal attacks from Julia and labor.

Unfortunately, the people, even those of us who proudly didn't vote for her, voted for their party to run the country.
So how is this crusade of ongoing personal attacks on Tony, running the country?

What sort of personal attacks, nothing in the media. The bully can't handle being bullied.
He wants genuine aborigines, not urban aborigines.
The monk and the head monk will come to account.
People have had enough of the golden years, negativity, no, crap , xxxx happens, carbon tax tactics.
The people want policies, which don't exist.
That is what Toni's trouble is.

Belly,
Given your political history and party position, I would have expected us to be at heated loggerheads on these matters. But some-how I find it difficult to oppose your statements (except for those on RC, which neither of us can prove anyway). You must represent the union stereotype no more than I represent the rural one. It is heartening to see that there are still labour people out there with genuinely thought through positions rather than regurgitating the party spin. I find it difficult to argue with these type of people (from any party - ALP,LIB,NAT,GRN). I don't have to name them here, it is obvious who they are and they can't help themselves.
BTW- Turnball does represent a glimmer of hope amongst an otherwise scabby bunch. He may even replace Abbott soon. But even if he does, he will have the same problems Rudd did. No robust support. The expression comes to mind - "It's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys.

Thinker,
I think we both actually would love to see the political landscape return to something different to what we have now. i.e. thought through debate on big ideas, forward looking, outward looking, less petty and void of hidden agendas with snouts in the trough.
It is certainly a conundrum but I think I disagree with you on the best way to get there. I actually wonder whether much of the rubbish we see now is CREATED by the fact we have a minority govt. Exactly because we have a minority govt, we see limited progress on many things. Having the greens in any position of power is always dangerous because their position is always the least thought through of all. They have for a long time enjoyed the position of being able to rant any populist crap without fear of every having to actually implement it.

continued...

I must admit I was excited after the last election result. Having the rural independents in a balance of power I thought that at last we had a chance for some REAL good outcomes for rural Australia. I should have known better than to get too hopeful. They have turned out to be the biggest disappointment of all. They have wasted the chance, and it will not come around again anytime soon.
May-be it IS our political system that lies at the heart of it. After all, the point scoring environment has changed significantly in the last couple of decades. The changes in the ways people consume their media alone make for an entirely different style of politicking. After all, Rudd himself has been accused of pouring huge resources into winning the media battle of the day, regardless of real progress. I suspect there is at least some truth in that.
I'm afraid I also disagree on the increasing responsibilities on the individual. I think we have many problems in our society on account of NOT ENOUGH responsibility on the individual. After all, we are already one of the most regulated countries in the world. I do however agree on the need for more responsibilities on those in positions of power or leadership. There should be much greater punishment for people who abuse the trust put in them. Including but not limited to: politicians, ceo's, religious leaders. The punishment for the loss of these people's integrity should be much higher.

MOTL AWU is not a leftist union, it remains our best.
I am a little right of them but find common ground with you.
You maybe surprised but after the first meeting and head butting, seems mandatory, I gained the respect of both sides mostly.
Country town workers to miners to construction we mostly think alike.
Yes you are quite right some will stay on their side of the fence even if it says they hide from truth.
Gillard is not the driving force behind the RC, she had no choice, it will end well after Labor falls, a tragic but in my view unavoidable event.
Power brokers must be held to account, yet one of them is going to be the post train wreck leader.
Turnbull is a true future statesman.
ONLY ABBOTT can beat the opposition, rechtub that above is juvenile and copied from the Australian news paper.
NEGATIVE MAN has cried wolf too often, it had to come.
It would be nice MOTL to see in my view Rudd back, he is head and shoulders above some who knifed him.
HOPE? yes I do have hope! NSW and the knifing club highlight my party,s need for Democracy, it will come, after the pain.

Too illustrate why (on one front alone) an LNP Gov't would be the last straw for Australia, I suggest you all read this article. When you do you will understand why Turnbull has no credibility either.

http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2012/11/16/3634499.htm?WT.svl=news4

Thinker 2 I understand at times I must truly get under your skin.
I am however who and what I am.
A country born bloke but well schooled by my years in city life.
LNP? the very term is swearing,you will be aware for every fault in the ALP/UNION movements, bar sex crimes, equal can be found in the party,s making up this federal coalition.
You throw NSW at me,I after ducking in for a change of cloths and a shower will throw Joe back, another clean up called for, running out of fresh cloths.
The Labor party is in deep, yet it will not be the power brokers who suffer.
It will be us, the Joe and Jane,s who pay power brokers bills.
For this reason, I REFUSE to let them off the hook, POWER BROKERS IS A SWEAR WORD.
We must clean our act up now, before the impending switch to Turnbull.
He like it or not,is comeing and will reduce this mob of Gillard backers to dust.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/faith-in-political-leaders-collapses-according-to-newspoll-survey/story-fn59niix-1226518493021
The report is a true and Gutsy one.
Both men, one from each side are men of true Merit.
The Comic book nature of ANY MEDIA outlet tainted by the ownership of Murdock avoids some truths.
BOTH SIDES CONTRIBUTE TO THIS RESULT
No answer to removing our politics from this deep and smelly hole comes without that understanding.
The report challenges us all.
Looking for answers in the Corruption driven Murdock scandal rag, is wasting your time.
Answers? maybe a beginning Q and A TOMORROW.