Nothing in my view beats Capitalism, unless it beats it self.
Western developed country,s feed on growth.
On growth in wealth productivity, and yes population growth to promote increased consumption of increased productivity.
Sure this can not be sustained forever.
It appears true that more debt is held than the planets Gross Annual Product?
In Europe some country,s continue to pay interest on debt equal to 150% of their GAP.
We must confront the amount of paper money in circulation, include coinage.
What backs this, not enough Gold exists on this planet to cover the cash, no way it could cover the debt.
What awaits us, can we find a way to continue to trade with one another but not lean on constant growth?
How many billions of dollars disappear at every crash, is a crash the renewal process we need to keep our system working.
Or is the day coming that we can do nothing but see our financial system fail?

I see Europe and America with fear.
Am constantly reminded how they got in to this financial mess,but just can not see how they get out.
Yet hundreds of thousands of family's are in exactly to same position, for the same reasons.
Borrowing too much, spending too much, then in many cases borrowing to pay debt.
In the great stock crash that bought on the not so great depression, you can bet many thought it would never happen.
But if our wealth is based on constant growth it just must.
What comes after.
Now a redneck like faction see the answer as lower wages, real danger there.
If every western worker took a ten dollar wage cut to put our system right?
Billions of dollars would disappear from the consumer side, less sales less productivity less profits.
Who has an answer?

yeah mate we all love capitalism
but we aint got capitalism..we got solialist capitalists
that bailout capitalist..to put ever more taxes..on the rest of us.

its a clever scam really..lawyers do free stuff for polies
and polies..make work..for lawyers

lest we forget publicservant's ex lawyers..making laws
judged by former lawyers,,now judges

the system is set to fail ol mate
they cant buy promises with promises..all there doing is deflating val;ues..against the debt..[to wit deflating our money..

swapping their paper for ours..
and us bailing out..others so the ones that lent it too much last time..can get from the top monied up again

that aint capitalism

5 minutes AFTER JESUS left the temple[after kicking over the monery changers tables..they were back..in evil times people do evil things

YOU MUST RECALL..mr bell..BYING a coke for one PENNY
plus getting half a penny back..for the EMPTY BOTTLE*!

now a coke costs 200 pennies

ok cents..but one cent cost 5 cents to mint

so we lost our copper coin too
[AFTER THE MONEY CHANGERS..stole our silver and gold coin
worlds feds treasuries mints and note printing plants

thats not capitaism..watch yesterday.KEISER report
capitalism..is having the money/assets up front..buying fixing value adding..if bankers like you you got credit..

if not

at best we got asset stripping..selling debt..lol for debt..[and putting them dead investments..into out COMPULSORRY pension..compulsory this COMPULSORRY THAT*

set up by lawyers
wanting law business read income
via extra..laws restrictions incomes..taxes levies..

100 plus extra so far

the nanny state...its great mate..if your a lawyer*

that vidio i was talking of
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb6z2wg0ffI&list=PL768A33676917AE90&index=2&feature=plpp_video

if not then its at http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL768A33676917AE90

cheers for max an you..eh

the end times...is suggestive [re 911..being close to the posting date

anyhow i had some weierd things ghappen yesterday..911
but no one has it as a topic..oh well

the ecomomies end times..normal cure is inflation//hyper inflation etc
till the values..catch up to the stolen wealth gutted out of the system..via govt bailout..and handouts to mates

grand green scemes
selling obsolete teqnoligy..bying billions wort of tammiflue
the list of govt malfeasence plus media complicity is huge

so many great adverts inmedia
conned many of your fellow full payout super..
that 'cash'..had to come from somewhere..it still is..us paying double for govt service..or privatised or quasi private govt monopoly providers/distributers.agents leeches franchise holders

all there to oplunder ever available dollar
as you know i feel revalue coin..bailout fthe base
one cent=1$
10 cents..buys a coke
20 cents ya god fish/chips

when your coin was silver..thats still its value todasy
but govt let bankers take our coinaway..create cyber credit at will[on demand..just to get at any real cash flow..drugs it dont matter without drug money washing

thats what caused 2008..the cash flow stopped

The problem is the welfare system. Yes all of it.

It doesn't matter if it is a dole bludger, a public servant on parenting leave, a single parent pumping them out for a baby bonus, or a millionaire claiming the first home owners grant, too many expect too much done for them by the state.

With aged people getting transplants at a huge cost, is this really a sensible use of taxes. If a clapped out old bugger, like me, wants a heart transplant, isn't it a reasonable thing that they sell their house & pay for it themselves.

In the same way, why should the tax payer support me & those like me for years, so we can leave our accumulated wealth to the kids. Yes it's great to be able to live in my old home, & eat regularly, but shouldn't the support advanced to us be deducted from our estate when we go? Sounds fair to me. Yes I know we paid for the previous generation, but the cost was much smaller.

Welfare & socialism are so similar, the more people get for nothing, the more they want, & the growth in handouts will have to slow down some time. Just like Grease, if we don't start doing it for ourselves some time soon, the rest of the world will do it for us, perhaps sooner than we would like.

Hasbeen it is my view we, to do justice to the true in need people,must reconstruct welfare.
But to, even for a mili second consider the worlds troubles are welfare based is bizarre.
OUG I think Socialism is worse than the system we have in place.
In fact, consider with me, more Socialism for the extremely rich, is paid in America, EG refusal to increase their tax rates in America.
Humanity develops fine words and principles in relation to helping others.
But western country,s, not one more than America, see street people eating from rubbish bins.
I put my self up for ridicule, but warn, unless we fix the world other will do it for us dictatorship of the rich and powerful, those who inflict these wounds is likely.
So what do we do?
Bank interest should be fixed in the whole world.
No borrowing without property to be sold to repay loans.
No trade in currency.
Others may know far more than me rather than endless posted links I think those views would be good.
When it comes to profit do not take good wil in business for granted.

yes you make a good point re fixing intrest rate
any sennsable servant..working FOR YOU*..would advise locking in fixed rates now!

thats what the rich do..fix intrest
as inflation doubles..its MONEY values..[cost in paper dollars
IN SILVER DOLLARS ITS STIL EGSACTLY THE SAME*..in what the silver price/copmpared to its fiat price

eg the avaege house still costs arround 300 pounds
[in silver...but they stole our pounds of silver
gave us dollars plus hyper intrest..and thats the onlt fix they got

unless they restore true values back to out coin
i cent coin=1$
5 cent COIN=5..all of a sudden EVEN KIDS got serevious COIN to SPEND>>

people spending means others got jobs
and with a cup of coffee..cosyting either 5 bucks..in paper/or credit..actual coffe can be bought once again for 6 pence..[or a 5 cent piece..

MATE YOUR IGNORING YOPU USED TO BY SMOKES AND A POT
for 6 p..or maybe a shilling[10 cent's]..thats how they play the game their way

THEY FIX IN LOW RATES
then ALLOW HYPER INFLATION..that increases prices..wages etc
BUT those TRICKED into investing SO THE RICH CAN FIX THEIR RATES LOW
ie our compulsory pension cash cow flow..OUR PENSION MANAGERS..locked into hyperinflating cash flow..as the top1%.. does their cream scrapping off the top

thats the way it is
govt should LOCKIN>>everyones intrest rate
the second..the rich collapse the system yet again

BOOM
bust

BOOM

bust

boom
bust
boom bust
dont say you aint seen it
goods inflate wages stagnate mate..its the workers that get shafted

im noting you and that nice police fella..[a unionist and a cop
lol no mention of south afrika unionists shot by cops

but hey both just do as their told
any govt working for them would work for them
by doing the clever things..locking in..so we dont need MORE WAGES*

they steal
cheat deflate TRUE values..
pump up consumables..food goes up
wages dont..but the rich used nmext years harvest to get at govt subsidy to turn food into diesal fuel for a yuyppies 4 wheel drive

Belly, from my reading there are only two ways out of the problem.
We can let the countries that cannot repay debt simply go bankrupt and
the banks, countries and people they owe the money to stand the loss.

The alternative way is to print money until inflation depreciates the
value of the debt. In this way you rob the worlds savers of their
wealth to save the those that were reckless with their management of
financial system.

So far it is this second way that has been adopted.
They give it silly names like "Quantitative Easing" because people are
generally suspicious of printing money, or worse pixel money.
Pixel money is generated by someone with a mouse clicking and sending
$billions to banks. So our money these days is a string of bits
flowing over the internet to various banks so they in turn can click
their mouse and give some business some credit in their account.

However you put your finger right on the problem when you mentioned
that naughty word GROWTH !

Growth is dependant not on money but energy.
To have growth in an economy you must have new energy in the system.
The catch is we have little to no growth in energy.
China has growth because the "west" generally is using less energy.

That can only continue for a short time.

there are huge crimes..by capitalists organisations/instruments
they plan to get our attention off the issue..[to bring in the traditional cure..OVERNIGHT

like all sneaky stuff goes down[like the drug laws for lawyers income

but worse even than that will be..the overnight disaster
and its red herrinh..red flag blackl flag..as israel choses to end the rule of the goy..or revenge on some primative fued of one form or other

its a family thing..but genocide is its fruit
then the bankers do what bankers do..go bust..or install a new fee..no intrest to poor peoople..all fruit of capital lists gone bad

nuthin like ongoing destruction..to avoid that which needs urgent RE BUILDING*

restore that destroyed via war
transaction tax..[double on HIGH*speed traders
on everyone..every transaction..every exchange of value*

cash is king*
hard cash..coin..worth its weight in gold
it is distictly a share holder of due course..CASH..upon which the rest stands..thus ITS TIME YOU SO CALLED SWORN TO THE QUEEN

treason has DEVALUED HER COIN..[her face has been degraded..by the worgth OF HER IMAGE >>not having ITS ASSURED assayed VALUE*

thats why HER FACE is on the FACE of the oin!
but that is disrespected..her people impoverished*
the value of the coin they are opaid in has been despoiled

a stain on her face and ours
its time to bailout the poor..govt revalues the face..into dollars

in time we know 1 cent=1 paper dollar
yeah we want them back too..they are only one two dollars

ONLY THE COIN cent=dollars
bailout the poor they spend their coin

revalue is added

govt can cut its virtual debt..by issing coin
paying in coin..those getting 1000 fiat cyber dollars..wage now
would take a pay dividend IN COIN..of ten dollars..

so govt wages[if you WANT to be paid in CASH*,,in coin]..come down
without cutting sacxking anyone

WHILE WERE ON THE TOPIC

getting THE SACK*..[in the old days..before your time..if the job WAS OVER*..you got 'sacked'..BY THE BOSS giving you a sack..TO CARRY YOUR TOOLS

mate TRADESMEN OWN THEIR TOOLS!
what happend..how come commies can steal NOT only OUR tools..but their WORKPLACE too?

Bazz on a first thought basis I agree.
However who made the debt that threatens these country's.
In Greece in large part it was the people.
That country,s attitude to personal income tax is madness, you virtually pay if you wish to.
And32 hour working weeks not helping.
Spain too but it spent most on phantom money, borrowed to build infrastructure.
I would hope we need leave no country in a hole.
But too that every cent of debt was paid, in time.
Interest rates once did not play as big a role, and this futures trading and trading in money is surely not helping.
If we fix interest rates at say 2,5% world wide, investment in other things for profit, may make true improvments.

so remember workers
when the time comes for your workplace to close
fill the sack*..union leaders lost that lurk for ya..wrote conditions

oh well chickens comming home to roost
us fed to buy up them trillions of FAKE PRODUCTSD PRODUCED BY TREASON
to bring down..'the worker pay...via infaltion

yep its money printing..giving good cash /[lol credit]..for bad paper BONDED paper[ie underwritten..by those COLUDIUNG FRAUD*

85 billion prer month..by us fed

watch out for the stag flation..[in flation while the rest is stagnating..as the wages get adjusted yet again..

as inflation inflates costs..less jobs
cops shooting workers..police lying like in uk

fed BANKERS>>bailing out their own banks

printing money..to monetise..BONDS
not meant to be monetised for decades

giving paper..to buy back papers..THEY INSURED?UNDERWROTE

now.BY STEALING THE THINGS>....a private franchise..
via PRINTING MORE MONEY..to buy back as if a value..the worthless garbage PRO_duct..the things only TRUE money SHOULD BE ALLOWED to buy

taking pefectly good money from just..to make instruments
that fail..

till they hold many..bought at huge discount..KNOWING*..they will buy back at FULL VALUE..making fraud into cash yet again

nonus all rounbd
mery xmass

now where to hide the cash
jersy island..switerland..euro's
get ready..folks..somw wildr cash..NOT GOING TO TRICKLE DOWN..near any of you any time soon..then there is israel/iran..then diebold voting machines deliver the bush mark two

in the end we find we cant eat their lies
nor even the newly printed paper..[we hoarded it..rather than lertting them steal it..thats when they hyper inflated it..[klike they did with the natzies

hyper inflation..for all
all but the trading traitering bankers/and their lawyering mates the true natzies

those in the know
they had fixed rates..while the rest got our job money stolen by inflation..WHY..same thing over monetising..long term cash..FLOW*

the trickle..that susaions plenbty
not this flood..for the same chosen *^%#@..in the know..
'the chose few'.!..mates rates..and lawyering for fee

OUG THANKS.
Not worth continuing the thread, some of your efforts that last one are very weird stuff.
To think workers wages and conditions, [have you ever been one?] are to blame for the worlds financial crisis, and at the same time believe in so many conspiracy is taking rational thought out of the discussion.
In just my lifetime by no ,means a long one, workers have gone from five and one half working days to 38 even 35 hour working week.
The sky never fell in as wages rise so do profits and productivity.
To remove the wages is to remove too some of the very fuel used to drive productivity, growth, sustainability.
World economy is no different than a household one or our national one.
If you spend too much on wacky tobacco and borrow until the next SS check comes to pay for it trouble follows.
Is an economy6 for every one.
Is the health of a Nation judged on it number of wealthy.
Or its poor?
And end to our current system has to happen, we continue to spend more than we produce, pay for homes bigger than we need.
And leave our casualty's far behind or in the gutter.
Mate you niggle unions I doubt you ever had a job to need one, complain about taxes you may never have paid.
In achieving shorter working weeks workers/Unions created our have a good week end life style.

ok reply re off topic troll
mate the first time police arrested me..i had two jobs
paid off two homes..but cause im not a drunk invested that other pee against walls

so your slur sir..is untrue
as is a lot of your assertions..its as if the eurika stockade never happend..al them dead unionists in sa..silence on that

mate its your lot retiring..
that saw the scamers need to raise the cash..for your payoffs

yes you put monery in
but the more you put in the more govt co contibuted
so those mugs working for casual one hour per day..pick up the cost

what i have seen over time..is union leaders..love the bass[the boss
da master's gifts respects honours..and as for the dirty workers..for every one like you..theres two out for all they can get

im noting SOME people are expert at getting gifts from govt
others the ones paying for it

the poor
you will allways have with you
why..cause therer are others expert at getting all they put in back..plus more*..not you mate..but not all unionists are as responsable as you..and the warfies.

much like police really..just doing the time
till that day..hyperinflation..taskes your big payoff away

gone
like it never was
what then?..we bail you out again?
[you used genericly for those..trusting de bass*/duh paryty or duh union..you cant get me cause im part of thye union too

everything from metal workers...to shop assist/real estate and local buisnes oaasociations..plenty of work payed to unions.../organisation's and govt

and not toughed any nedicare monies nor drug subsidy scemes
nor pension..nor dole..so jam your off topoic troll..me bell

its opinion..not accusation..i love you
hate parties and collusions to decieve the workers

thats all..say you
so be it bass

OUG touch, just for me, reality, I am far from rich or well off.
I gave up near 80 thousand a year to stand up for my members.
Yes I own a home not a castle.
And would give you, or even Shadow Minister, my last dollar if you needed it.
So how could I thieve from a worker?
I am, take house away, worth well under 100.000 and shrinking.
A secret, it is far better to give than take.

belly you take it personal..and often make it personal
im not into playing the man..the ball is in play

lets just watch the ame unfold

recalliong every time we hear of some retireee..loosing two mil..in his 'life savings'..lol super payoff

most of that was tax free govt topup..
tax avoidance/tax minimisation.. tax exgsemption..tax avoidance

its allmost as if you never noticed the recession 'we had to have'
on 80,000..not bad work..if ya can get the workers/to pay you

most the unions I HAD TO JOIN..were employer unions..
like small goods at dandy..was dandies union..i suspect much the same when i was traineee manager for woolworths..coles ..

i forget which union..the tanery or the fertiliser plant..prawn trawling or mex food shop..but at gladastone the metal workers did it right

4 day..week..if we strike one whole day/
/the lower rate of tax..on only 4 days..means that day off only cost 8 dollars..then

i was working the futh day for 8 bucks
most of it went to govt taxation..when we got income tax..NOT WAGES TAX

and income aint wage
think mate that iognorance sees..that we got mug unionists working for less than the cost of a meal and the travel expenses..

MAYBE ALL could FINALLY get a 35 hour week
if unions OR govt was on our side..but it clearly aint

but no
unions past glories..is much like the greens..inbred

in your times..this you will see more clear

see how globally the ALP..is mute.
...on unionised workers being abused globally*

mute..nadda..
even from the normally noisey *foreign mini/ster curs/carr.

that gets the cigar
say good by to coins..so much more even the clever people ignore
but royalists silence speaks volumes..just as the lap alp..union avoidance to support FULLY..THE WORKERS..

I get no joy out of seeing we do not want to truly see the crisis to come.
Not the end times my threads name spoke of.
But surely as the sun rises a day will come that rocks our financial foundations.
Because? greed and the creation of wealth is over ruling finding a way to fix it.
A thousand times, maybe more, in my life time have seen mass losses as a foundation firm miss managed fails.
The world is printing cash, without that legal tender printed on it is as worthless as any paper blowing in the wind.
We would need all the Gold on the earth, then multiply it many times to cover any gold standard,so the money is in the end worthless.
I hope we the 99% have a say when the change comes.
I would hope we remain free democratic and Capitalist, but have my doubts.
For me? fixed interest low and forever, an end to trading in currency.
Make things for ;profit not investments that put more value on paper money after all it has no real value come the crash.

i dont need to ask you belly..how you feel about them 90 dead pakies..died recently//LOCKED INTO THEIR WORKPLACES

but how you or i feel dont matter
note how silent the unions,,the 'labour govts

speaks volumes ol mate

now back to super..EVERYWEEK..a majory ;percentage of our wages..goes to gamblers..to leverage..into wether oil or coal or gas or food or whatever..will go up or down today..

its a set up game..[i once tried to buy shares..but apparently the lot had been put on hold..for them//from the queen down

at best their bying a dividend..at worst gambling on promises
they bet it will go up or down..50/50..so many with lots of cash..LEVERAGE their own investments..under advisement

so MY super bought facebook shares
putr more on as it fell..leveraged it
who got the full price comm isions?..how by lying

BY PRETENDING to be your friend.yoyr party..your pal
then doing a bernie madoff with all that great cash

mate how often you read of the next allen bond..hiding his wealth in family trusts ..going bankrupt..but living the same high life regardless..cause he/they.. didnt go bankrupt..in reality*

hid the wealth they stole..do some time
then be comfortably middle class for 7 generations
unless the first spend it all..or gambled it away..or lost it in a scam

or had it hyper inflated away..
when the time limit expires on the bailout..yes freeze low rates..in us..not here...here banks are expert at 'the cost of borrowing'..

not that they..lol steal your cash intrest free..
and plus pay their penalties/fees..pecunilarilly intrests

continues

se its needs that NEW money
like your gen got..that had to come from those paying it today

but this is so much like german hyper inflation
every month a few extra %..no wage negotiations for two years..by which time the world is like zimbabwe/germany/and many capitalist looted localities globally..

with howard..he took the load off the elites
got rid of death\DUTIES..import duties etc ..gave the rest of us gst

its endless..but 80,000 mate....think back..this might help you see

that was what..2002?..or 2006..or 1980?

trace back the pay you got..year by year
or deecade by decade..i assjure you one decade prior to $80,000
you were closer to 40.000..if not then maybe 40

but the next deecade will be below 40
so lets say..2006..you earned 80 thou
1996..i rekon 60 thou
1886..i rekon UNDER 40,000
1976..luckey to get 20,000
1966 luckey to pulling in under 4000 quid

anyhow..thats my spurilous claim to you..cheers blue/bell

stay well pal

OUG you look at the worst examples and I think some that do not exist, then mix them together like scambeled eggs.
My fear is for the whole world, some of my fears are ones you shared here.
But lets not forget, I started with less than nothing.
Worked my guts out from 13 years old till over 65.
BUT banked 20% of my last two years income, on top of my company super 15%
So no one gave me anything, invested super earned very good interest.
Now that is my concern, Socialism and Communism took the need to look after your self away.
It in fact took the need to succeed away, it failed.
While we continue population growth we FORCE every thing else to grow, including debt.
Taking the [as all faiths once said] ability to lend cash and nothing else, leaching on every one, away, can help.
But those wanting to invest in business or goods and services have every right to profit.
Without that? Socialism strangles effort.
Pakistan? are you sure Australian unions can influence any one in that renegade country?

again we are not grasping each other..so i try a new way
your a union rep..your used to thinking ..FOR YOUR MATES*..they look to your knowing..at least while you both worked..

now mate you KNOW how hopless many were
BUT ALL OF YOU TOK THE LUMP SUM*..[but lets face it mate...most got no idea how to manage their booty..or even retain it in many cases

so they trust some muggins..promising nice high retrurn.,..low or no risk..and the mnuggs feed criminbals..CAUSE THEWY..not you..dont know how to handle THAT MUCH CASH

mate that cash came direct from the kids super
now much of it held by the crims

YIOU RECALL ussr fell..the people got shares WORTH BILLIONS
but swapped the shares for tv..thus now huge rich russion czars/oligarks..looted the ignorants wealth

yet again

some people shouldnt be FORCED to save..
then spend it,..at the racetrack..to them..THEM*..its like 'found' money..they dont feel its really theirs..so spend it..not use it as wisely..like you..

but for all them old senile dupes..got a nice nest eggs there for the looting..govt suppoorts the WRONG END..invest in youth..not the dying

that dont mean old people should die,,or i wish anyone dead
its just not every 65 year old suddenly gets finantial wisdom
thus giving them theiur instant pension is insane..BUT ITS COMPULSORY!

thats the problem aint it..the topic stop.s there in mute silence

i am the cause of this...
when i first came here..i replied a old topic...

from that day to this..
one month..the thread dies..regarding adding..to that story line/topic

and my favourites box is full of dead topics
so i have to keep windows open..to save double handeling..to read any update..but its all off topic..but the topics over..yep its over

lol
not by a long shot
in the end..this became the biggest issue..in the histry of men
how an elete graduall perveted govt money/insurance iunderwriting law

yes and fruiendly societies unions..and many community groups
govt isolated and exploited..and media unions said nix

spoke not for those oppressed south afrikans..exploited by white master..in black face..shot by police raided by [police..then the police union...lol

a world gone insane/as was best typified by the alp opposition leader kim beastly..who talked as if he was allready running things..thus never actually did..

just cause it says work choice
dont mean its your choice

but heck ol mate you done well
its just those taking over from you..collude to get it all for their master/better/client/trust/bank or corperation..buisiness is capital..

capital is being waterd down
like its cheap scotch..but its the same value..selling for double its worth..and lots of unionists/unions/friendly societies and investers..capital will be devalued..

and re valued
re sold..on sold barterd and onsold
and yet rubbish in rubbish out

a capitalist wins
capitalism looses

Yes the thread died, it seems we are doomed to not talk about such issues.
Until they crash down on us or the next one or two generations.
But we are stumbling from financial crisis to the next one.
And if the roof caves in we all find others in control.
I think it is something we can not avoid.
We talk of how much better things could be but are powerless to do anything.
Just look at a small slice of the world cake Australia, we are doing well, but can not fix the boat problem.
We know, for sure a day will come that we will not be able to sell our mining output, a stagnant world needs no inputs.
We are going to get a MASSIVE lift this and the next year from our agricultural sales, then enter a drought.
RIP the thread but on the next failure of world financial markets we can come back and dither about without doing anything.