Following on a most topical discussion, 'America and Firearms', a topic that was initially generated by 'BELLY',

Like most, I've heard academic arguement (from many eminent Psychiatrists, Psychologists, and legions of other 'ologists) all describing men who happen to enjoy the lawful use of F/A's. Individuals who seemingly, have a deep seated sexual inadequacy ?

Apparently, the F/A's 'power' represents some pseudo-phallic symbol of a kind, that epitomizes strong masculinity, virility or machismo.
Ostensibly, this is why men will strenuously resist any attempt to seize or otherwise remove their guns ?

Is this notion correct ? I don't know. However, may I relate an event I was involved in, before I retired...?

A young bloke about (19) committed suicide, using his Dad's single barrel shotgun, a cheap Boito. He sat in the (separate) toilet one afternoon, placed the gun in his mouth, and did the deed. I got the job, as 'case officer'. The matter was determined as suicide by the Coroner, and after the documentation was completed, I offered to convey the bereaved (estranged) father back to the family abode.

Usual practice, certain articles that may (at the time) prove to be items of an evidentiary nature, are generally returned to the owner, after all enquiries and court stipulations are determined and concluded. Police usually seek instructions from the owner or NOK, apropos the disposition of such property.

After we had some coffee, I asked the father if there was anything further I could assist him with. Clearly, he was a very sad and desolate man, having just returned from the Coroner's Court, and witnessing an Inquest into his Son's death.

He said no. As I was about to leave, he suddenly asked...Oh, when can I get my gun back ? This is the gun his Son used to blow the back of his head off !

I've attended many suicides in my career, heard many strange things said, when folk are deeply bereaved. This, my friends would take the cake ?

As I said at the outset; 'Men and their Guns'.

o sung wo you have hit a nerve.
The truth in what you say shouts at us.
Like men, by the big numbers dieing because they think men do not cry.
So lump in the body they understand should not be there, and they refuse to see a doctor.
After multiple deaths in a car truck wreck.
Folk insisting on bringing the blood covered goods home?
Lets hope the decline in gun ownership continues to keep them out of the hands of such folk.
And as you have said else ware.
Lets hope the randomness of such things is not suported by easy access to a gun.

People intent on killing themselves will find a way be it a gun,drugs,hanging or jumping from a cliff.

Govts as history shows is the biggest murderer and they need to brought under control,not the individual.

My uncle had a sporting goods store in Arizona, one of the states with a laissez-faire attitude toward guns. A teenager came into the store one day wanting to buy a pistol. My uncle thought the kid was a bit weird and called the local sheriff. The sheriff asked if the kid had money. When my uncle said yes, the sheriff said, "No problem. Let him have the gun."

So you were once a cop o sung, bully for you. I suppose you think that gives you some right to insult those who weren't so anointed, or some insight to the thinking of others. Men who like guns have sexual inadequacies, does that go for the ones in uniform as well?

I have also heard some eminent academics, [god protect us from those fools], suggesting that "once a police man, never a man", but I would never believe that.

The other day I had some jumped up cop come to visit to decide if I should be issued with a new gun licence. I'm sure he would know, we've issued him with a gun. I guess it's not his fault, but he was a bit condescending.

He did come off his high horse a little when he saw a picture of a younger me standing beside the jet fighter, with a few guns & missiles, I used to be entrusted with. Perhaps he decided I could be trusted with the little pop gun I have to protect my young stock from the wild dogs our council do not control. They do control my dogs, they have to be locked up & useless for the job.

From what I hear of US cops & their guns, the public are safer with the crims, not many of the crims put 9 of the public in hospital with friendly fire wounds.

"...friendly fire wounds...."

What an absolute load of b...locks. Around 31,000 gun murders and many more woundings in the US each year, and you're blaming friendly fire for their massive gun problem.

".....jet fighter, with a few guns and missiles...."

Wow, what a man.

Of course, I'd consider you a bit more manly if you ceased blowing your own trumpet ad nauseam.

o sung wo, on be half of Hasbeen I want to say sorry.
Hasbeen comes across as an unhappy man, some of us find the reason is in our genes.
The fact is both good and bad cops exist.
I understand and honor all until proved differently.
Posts like Hasbeen,s challenge us all, but before feeling insulted know in the past he has lashed out at others who have the duty to visite his property.
You via your work life, me from my climb out of poverty ,living some times with the worst, know more than the man ever did or will.
Trying to mentor some bought me in contact with some true hill billy types.
They exist, murders take place, like pit bull terriers some own guns to prop up a macho image.
Hasbeen uses words to do the same,and is face down in the mud on this issue.
Yet you know, you have locked up those ferrels, and no doubt folk like Hasbeen, who let their anger rule over their brain, and for as little reason.
Poirot, fine work proud of you.

oh dear lord..two gun owners..confirming some shouldnt get guns

cops got guns..[guns CHANGE PEOPLE*
policing isnt keeping the peace..policing is revenue raising with a gun taser radio backup coiuurts prisons nut house..in short a system

BEGUN under threat of POLICE policing policy
with a gun..i dont trust gun toting revenuers

one or the other
only issue guns to those that hand them back underr lock and key till the next time someone finds a use for a gun..THE WEAK NEED A GUN*

so stop picking on the week
[you lot took my guns..put me in jail
they wernt complete guns..[no breech blocks..no bullits..THEY WERE MY INVESTMENT..kids with guns came and took them from me..PLUS addeed court fees fines and jail time

get out of our lives nickola
docters killed ye dad,,not smokers..
you can take your howard nanny state mate..only fools need WORKING GUNS*

heck if pro hatt was still here..he might just unblock his cannon

OUG, Mate, give this some thought.
Are your views always right.
Are mine always wrong
Let us look at yours, how many do you think find smoking does not kill?
How many, by percentage smoke?
Guns, do you think the police took your guns out of spite? did you say or do anything to make them think it was best to take them?
You once told me you are an ex Biker, did you in those ranks ever meet anyone who may have shot and killed some one, is that OK?
Did you ever have a mate who shot himself, did you ever wish he had no gun, that you could have spent just a few minutes with him till he calmed down.

H there HASBEEN...

Firstly, thank you for your response. And my profound apologies for being a former cop and, for the behaviour of that, 'jumped up' and condescending policeman who was assisting you with your gun licence.

As to my personal insight into guns, suicide, and, the meaning of life generally well, being a ex jack, what would I know anyway ?

You allude to being a former pilot or aircrew member, of a combat aircraft. I can only assume you're ex RAAF. Well HASBEEN, I'll not seek to be quite as discourteous as you were, by declaring, inter alia '...bully for you, I suppose you reckon you've got some insight into aeroplanes...' or similar.

Other than to remark, it sounds to me, for a former pilot who was responsible for a 'high performance' combat aircraft, you've (sadly) had a dramatic fall from grace. And you now find it necessary to assail and debase anybody with whom you've had some issue with ?

We police, being demonstratively dense, are pretty hard to offend in reality. So with that vacuousness, comes a realization, while some people loathe and despise us with such venom it's immeasurable, there are others, who appreciate what 'good' we try to do. Often, without much success, but we do try !

HASBEEN, if you were a pilot, a pilot of a supersonic combat aeroplane, I myself, would be absolutely beaming with pride and accomplishment, rather than floundering around in the murky depths of your own despondency and pessimism.

G'day there BELLY...

Many thanks for your kind words and sentiments of support, I do appreciate them.

And you're so right when a topic such as 'guns' is raised, it does create much discussion and occasional arguement(s) into the bargain.

My own position on F/A's, when I was much younger, like most blokes I had a pretty keen interest in shooting (not hunting) to the extent, early in 1958, I joined the old Hurstville VDC, (Military) Rifle Club, which shot competition every Saturday at the old ANZAC Rifle Range, Liverpool. Now all housing, and I'd reckon the land alone would've been worth squillions !

We used the old SMLE .303 with the only modification permitted was, to fit a heavy barrel, an Aperture Sight, usually a 'Central', 'Rawson', or 'Parker Hale' brand. After your probationary period (12 months), you were also allowed to purchase a brand new .303 Lee Enfield SMLE Rifle from the Army, for 3 Pounds exactly.

You then (an armourer)removed the military barrel, replaced it with a heavy barrel, 'bedded' it correctly, added the Aperture Sight, and away you went ! Hoping to shoot a 'Possible' each and every Saturday.

However, reality, money and girls soon took precedence. With my parents permission, I decided to join the Military. Afterwhich, my life changed dramatically.

On July 01, 1958, BELLY, my only thoughts were those which were MANDATORILY directed, and confined completely to, those activities as directed by the RTB staff (Recruit Training Battalion) at Kapooka, Wagga Wagga. Where I grew-up, in very very quick time, I can assure you.

Since then, F/A's to me have really been, just a 'tool'. Carried by necessity in the coppers, a bit of occasional 'plinking' with a mate's .22, and the need to re-qualify with my police weapon every 12 months (now every 6 months) or so. As I said, now (was) just a necessity I'm afraid.

I'm sure you'd recall those much happier (but harder) times, eh BELLY ?

Cheers...Sung Wu

O sung, go back & read your first two paragraphs & tell me just who started with the offencive put down old fellow. If you don't like the heat, don't light the fire.

Yes I & a few other old blokes around here, some who have carried a gun in defence of this country, have been offended when some junior cop is given the right to question their ability to carry or own a gun.

Rather than pay a licence fee, these people should be given a certificate of competency to own & carry a fire arm for life, after all, we spent a lot of money training them to do so, & gave them a damn site higher level of training than our police force receive.

Over the years i have used many firearms and actually owned five, four at one time.

Some have been used as tools to do a job, such as yesterday there was young buck roo laying in the paddock not far from my house with a broken leg. I used my .22 to destroy him humanely. Roos long back legs are suseptable to breaks and bucks can do that by fighting with other bucks.

Others have been procission instruments. One i had was .17 calibre and used for precise fox shooting. Head shooting foxes out to 200 yards and no pelt damage. Pelts were worth a lot and mate and myself got 300-400 a winter. I swapped that for a fire pump when pelt values dropped and i found it harder to go out all night.

I like the ability to get game at a range beyond my ability to use say a throwing stick and i admire the precission that goes into the firearms manufacture. Reloading ones own cartriges is also an interesting and rewarding hobby. Most firearms stocks are made of quality timber and my prize possesion has a stock of highly polished Walnut with nice grain and is a piece of beauty in itself.

So there are a number of reasons why men can be attached to firearms. I found it quite satisfing to know that my rifle could shoot a 1" group all day, if I was good enough and i look after them. They ride on a babies cot mattress in the ute back untill the game is spotted.

Precission instruments deserve to be well cared for.

In relation to the suicide incident. One does not need a firearm for that. Next to my road to town is a large tree that even today has bark off it where several years ago a bloke did away with himself by driving at high speed into it. Evidence was found for this conclusion.

No doubt people will continue to think up all sorts of reasons why there is an attraction to firearms.

Dear Hasbeen,

So if people dish it out they should be able to take it?

Not the way I normally play mate but hell you're the one setting the rules.

What an insular old fool you are. Don't you read any news? A high proportion of mass shootings in the States at the moment involve ex-servicemen. You would have these folk, a large proportion of whom are highly trained in the skill of taking lives, many of them traumatised and on medication, having carte blanche with weapons?

Thank god we are in the hands of people like o sung wu and not you and your ilk.

You really must stop blowing your trumpet and start thinking outside you own little square.

Don't know what happened to the third last sentence of my post above.

It should read:- In relation to the suicide incident, one does not need a firearm for that etc.etc.

Hi (again) HASBEEN...

Actually the heat is most agreeable for my poor old arthritic bones, thank you.

By the muddled way you're talking you seem to suggest you're the elder brother to Methuselah ? This 'young' copper to whom you refer, and feel necessary to berate, is only doing his job. If you don't like it pal, lobby the politicians to have the law changed. And for your information, I'm also a Vet. Were you ?

You're going on about how you and others had to train 'em ? Train who, for what, and with what ?

You seem to have a real hang-up about young people. Young people trying to do a job !

In case you've not noticed, it's the young people who'll ultimately rule the world, and more importantly, look after you and me in our advancing dotage.

We were all young once...even you. Why don't you offer some constructive comment, instead of attacking people trying to work.

It's these morally corrupt Politicians, who should feel the sharp edge of your tongue, not some baggy arse young copper doing what he's paid to do.

Should you feel so undervalued, yet over skilled, why don't you pop along to the next 'domestic' episode, where some bloke is waving around a knife, threatening all and sundry, including the kids of the family. It's often the young constable(s) who are confronted with such an explosive situation, who have to deal with it ? And as they say, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Cheers.

apologies for being a former cop
o sung wu,
I have often said that there are too many cops & not enough policemen. I for one accept your apology.
Poirot,
Hasbeen was someone who joined the armed forces & did things most men can only dream about, so to have a go at him about blowing his own trumpet ? Well, at least he's got something to blow his trumpet about. What does the average Labor voter have to trumpet about ? Massive deficits, ruined communities, unaffordable wages, mass dumbing, hell one could almost get all of them together & call them a brass band.

'evening to you CSTEELE and BANJO...

It's absolutely terrible these mass shootings in the US. I can only hope that doesn't happen here with the frequency it does over there.

Port Arthur, Hoddle Street in Melbourne, I understand the killer, Julian Knight is seeking parole, after dispatching seven innocent soul's !

I'm off the thread, I'm sorry, however I must share with you all - It's my understanding, an eminent silk in Melbourne, is prepared to assist Knight with his quest for parole...'PRO BONO' ! God help us !

This individual should NEVER be released, if necessary a special Act should be legislated to ensure any attempt of release is totally thwarted. As I said, God help us !

Gee BANJO, a .17 Remington has a very flat trajectory, steeping out at the muzzle, around 4020fps + or - with a 25 grain HP or similar. Hit a substantial blade of grass, could alter POA thus POI. It's little wonder you can successfully take a head shot with it. Reloading your own is the only and least expensive option I reckon.

I agree with you totally, a F/A is a tool, and as such should be well looked after if you value it's optimum performance.

Thanks to both of you for contributing to my unremarkable thread. It was BELLY's earlier Topic that got me thinking.

'Night all

belly/quote..""give this some thought.
Are your views always right.
Are mine always wrong""

clever 'redirection'..but we both been both

""Let us look at yours,..how many do you think
find smoking does not kill?""

i think every smoker knows*,,its not smomking
that he she will die of..but rotted teeth cancer/heart disease[YOU KNOWE ALL THEM NUMBERS ATTRIBUTABLE*..to smoking..BUT MATE lumping the lot together..DONT PROVE SMOKE LINKAGE>>.

just like not all suicides by gun..is by dads gun
simplistic over simplifuckation mate..ATTRIBUTABLE..mean atributed to smoking..but what they dun is lie!

the social cost..ISNT the medical cost[thats only 800 nillion cost of hospitalisation of all smoker..ATTRIBUTABLE..mate its spin..WHY>.cause some docter PRONOUNCED/declaredon the death papers SMOKING..as THE CAUSE of death..

when they wernt actually 'smoking'

its the same twisted logic of STEALING PEOPLES GUNS*
not paying..just straight out THEFT..

[quote]How many, by percentage smoke?[/quote]
the numbers of smokers WHO DIE OF CANCER
plus the numbers of NON SMOKERS who get cancer..is the same PROPORTIONS..regardless of smoking..thus smoking not the TRUE causwe[ie micro particul;ate./wood smoke low temp burn..causes cancers/plus pepper sray..and gunoil

[""..Guns, do you think the police took your guns out of spite?""

yes..5 raids they ignored it
but then they went in as an egsample*
big thugs..with guns..tazers dogs..for what a smoking dope

so much wasted police time
DEEMING a plant a drug..by lie

[quote]
did you say or do anything to make them think it was best to take them?[/quote]
yes i was questioning their expert..trained in one wekend..to judge a plant as a drug..went home and the came stayed 6 hours..8 cops..[lasst time it was just two..but this time they wanted pain

screw the lot of em
[quote]
You once told me you are an ex Biker, continues

belly cont..""did you in those ranks ever meet anyone who may have shot and killed some one, is that OK?[/quote]
mate..TILL HOLLYWOOD movies and gobvt scare propaganda got into its oppresive policing..,bikies just rode bikes!

i was the first official bike wedding..it wasnt then,...like its made to look now..gun shots,,wow..police have guns,,even have 'spare' guns..i seen the movies

i seen dirty harry and serpico
i read what went down in brissie/malbourne/sydney..heck we even murderd unionists warfies too..thugs the lot of em..but thyey got licence..
[quote]

Did you ever have a mate who shot himself,
[/quote]
no i got two dead drunks..and an 18 year old died in his own vomiit..on his 18th..

I HATE DRUNKS AND GUNS..[i did teq support for a foreign army..TRAINING at shoal water bay..35 dead..JUST PRACTICING for war

i did my time..i had the guns safe

now who knows some cop has maybe cut it down..WE DONT KNOW*
police bust druggies and the drugs get back on the streets..I DONT TRUST THOSE WHO RAPE ME ONCE[12 times

""" did you ever wish he had no gun,
that you could have spent just a few minutes with him till he calmed down.""

no idea what your talking about BUT..i recall a joke..from the first coppers that came to my home to steal plants..one said luckey you didnt try to run..[me handcuffed on my own front lawn said huh>..run..from my own home?

anyhow he finnished his joke...with ''cause our mates smith/western would have got ya..lthe fuc wit..its the same thugs with guns..i only found out decades later smiyth /wesern is a gun

thats what we get with cops with guns
spin..oh the por boy..NO VICTIM NO CRIME*

no autopsies are done to validate the fictions of 15,000 deaths
its based on hersay..LIES*..dont think god dont know juliar

i note time is called on the article of note
men and their beloved guns..yes just penus extentions..poor frightend little things needing a gun..mine were disabled..

not becvause i couldnt kill..but because i couldnt kill knowing i would have to face god to explain ..WHY i killed..life ANLY he can give to live

murder is specificly forbidden..the law reads thou shalt not murder
and thats what police with guns are doing...THINK..for a second

civil deaths has been rising in every theater of war
RISING STEADILY..from 2%..in ww1..to 6 %..in ww2..to as many as perhaps quater a million in iraq..

civil deaths..compared to what 5,000 ARMED deaths..
now we get to deaths of police..less than 10..this year
how many dead crims..50/50..or more like iran

SURE BAN GUNS
for all*..go through the world bying them back..and make them who made them pay for the buy back..but so easy to vilify miners and shoot them..copps with guns

you seen where that goes
16 dead unionists..a good beginning..killed by cops with guns

guns who needs em
but pay..both ways

Csteele, no leg pulling, great true wisdom in your post.
Before generalizing and before judging only on our views we should see the issues from all angles.
Generally, to even think just asking a few questions about guns, to check how they are kept, is wrong?
I can not find any common ground with Indy miss placed self confidence, Hasbeen,s self worth however seems to point to unhappiness deep and wide.
Right now I am living a real life possible murder suicide, knowing I try to help folk I know well approached me.
Two brothers in a life time war, this time because one thought the other should not have his child on the back of a farm bike.
Went for guns intent on? murder, guns had been removed and police arrived from 30 klm away in time to stop it.
To compare these events with human rights is the refuse to see truth.

I would merely reply with "BAHAHAHAHAHAHA" but, you know ... doesn't add to the convo.

I enjoy hunting more than I enjoy guns. But like with butchers using knives, it's the best tool for the job. I've hunted with dogs and knives, guns, bows, a camera, whatever, and weirdly - apparently - I sexually function normally. But, I guess, same with butchers you get to appreciate a decent tool - lol so to speak. You strive to purchase the best and of course during that process you discuss with other owners, buy mags, go to gun shops, and google them. The shooting range is a necessary thing for sighting your rifle and checking it's functioning the way it should before you head into the hills.

Think I'd call it an interest, before a sexual dysfunction.

Hasbeen,
I enjoy your posts and most often agree with you. However, on this occassion I believe you to be in the wrong.

O sung wu began by quoting what academics have said and then added, quote."Is this notion correct ? I don't know. However, may I relate an event I was involved in, before I retired...?"

He then went on to relate a suicide incident he experienced and raised the issue of why a father would want possesion of the firearm that his son used to kill himself. I cannot answer that and maybe there is no lodical answer. All I can do is put forward the things that attract me to my firearms. I can relate to what Stg said also.

Funny thing is that I think on 99% of the time you and he would agree, I think you misread his first post.

o sung wu,
You are spot on with your info about the .17 Remington. All I could add is a glass bedded barrel and an excellant scope and you have an extremely precise tool. As the projectiles are tiny, the reloading process is fiddly but powder was measured to within 1/10th of a grain, for consistancy.

As I said before the reasons for attraction for firearms is many. In my case it would be similar to admiring a top performing bike or car. It is an appreciation of an object well made and beautifully finished. Importantly, I can afford to own the firearm.

Yep StG, those who have done, do have to feel a bit sorry for those who can't.

Poirot you can feel happy now, the way it's going, our navy will only have the capacity for taxi work.

Once upon a time we had guns, nice big guns too they were.

On the assumption that our fly boys, their aircraft & the carrier would be expended reasonably early on in any real war, they used to train us up to watch keeping on the destroyers that may still be operating. This on the strange thought that we might survive the loss of our aircraft.

You would have been terrified if you had known just who was in charge of 6 big 4.5 inch guns for 6 or 8 hours a day. Funnily enough, I never lobed one on Sydney, never even thought of it.

Excuse me, I must go get the magnifying glass to try to find my genitalia, before I go for a run in the sports car.

Some in this world are certifiable and we just have to live with them.

Welcome to the human race:)...but some (a larger majority of the not insane) on your opinion about gun control......how about when you can trust your fellow human, lets start there.

o sung wu, nice words.

Planet3

Banjo a well put together post.
It puts it all together, o sung wo is no trouble maker.
He would have zero idea that sexual dysfunction in the aging is hard on some.
I still would like the shoot you and StG talk about.
No wild pigs around here greeny,s get in the way of getting rid of Ferrel cats.
A Roo? yes now and again, well butchered and packed it feeds two small dogs and me.
Now lets look, do you, or anyone think o sung wo was doing other than describing SOME WHO OWN GUNS?
gee give him a break!
Some who call them selves shooters never bagged more than roadside lights and signs!

The original post linking - perhaps - guns and sexual dysfunction highlights and old, but an interesting, idea.
However, as Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and while the allusion is appealing, I'm not so sure.
One thing I've observed, having spent a deal of time in the US, is that the American fixation with guns seems (to me) to be linked to two things.
One is that an astonishing number of Americans seem to genuinely fear their government. Comparing this with Australia, many of us might have a pretty low opinion of our governments' competence from time to time, but I've not met anyone who actually feared our governments.
Exactly what they would do with their gun if their 'govmint' came after them, has never been quite clear, at least, not to me.
The other thing many Americans are fanatical about is this notion that somehow carrying a gun makes one safer, vis a vis criminals.
When I pointed out to one of my American friends that in a recent mass shooting, the police shooting back managed to hit several bystanders, and the police are trained to shoot at - and presumably hit - the right people, so what would happen if all and sundry started blazing away, he didn't think was a sensible question.
I'm not one of John Howard's biggest fans but one thing I do admire and thank him for is the stand he took after Port Arthur.
And that the vast majority of Aussies went along with him, is, I think, a tribute to our collective common sense.
And perhaps, our lack of sexual dysfunction.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Anty...lol...maybe your right...a small penis is the cause to the whole problem:)

Belly.....your neutral stance is out-standing:)

Planet3

An anagram of penis is spine. That stiffens it.

'afternoon to PLANET3 and all contributors...

Your right of course, gun ownership should be open to anybody, who can demonstrate the requisite, age, character and personal qualities, necessary for responsible and safe handling of a F/A.

Should a person who's suffered, as opposed to 'suffering' (present tense) a mental illness, be mandatorily barred from possessing a F/A ? My opinion ONLY, not necessarily.

I would think, documentary (medical) evidence, certifying to the applicant's mental fitness, specifically for F/A use and ownership, should be essential. Prior to a licence being granted.

Similarly, there's always been a thorough scrutiny of an applicant's character. Certain criminal convictions too, don't always preclude the issue of a F/A licence, either.

In defence of my opinion, I'd simply state, the number of returned servicemen and women (from all wars), many who came home with a litany of mental complaints, and many were never diagnosed.

Yet, once back in 'civvy' street, they've proven, to be totally responsible with a F/A. I know from my era (South Vietnam, Malaya, Borneo), there are many blokes suffering from the effects of PTSD.

I would hasten to add, the views herein are mine only, and may well be in erroneous. Except perhaps, for some of my comments, apropos former and current licencing practices and guidelines. Please remember, anything denied by police, can be overturned by the Court.

HASBEEN, one of the opinions you expressed in an earlier response, about a young copper who put you through the 'hoops' when assessing your F/A licencing requirements. You used language to the effect of him being 'jumped up' or arrogant, or similar.

You're right. Some young coppers think, 'the majesty' of their uniform, entitles them to be rude, arrogent and simply downright offensive...!

However, they soon lose that negative attitude, when they find themselve's knocked down, and 'sucking concrete' !

There's blokes out there who are NEVER intimidated by a kid wearing blue. To the contrary, it's like a red rag to a very angry bull.

Cheers.

Gun Laws, a catch 22 situation. In case of any future anarchy, I myself would like to be armed,
However in times of peace it seems ludicrous to go around handing out automatic weapons to any idiot who may just not be sensible enough to own one. This of course means sensible gunowners Must be subject to stringent laws to try to discourage the idiots. It should be noted that since John Howard bought in tougher gun laws there has so far been no repeat of Port Arthur although there have been domestic slayings of 2 or 3.

The laws around gun registration and re-registration were bought in for the reason that it is usually a
Loner like Martin Bryant who commits these mass shootings and making them wait a month to get a license after applying gives them a cooling off time and the police a good chance to check them out.
I believe they are actually looking to change this waiting period now. A dangerous idea I think.

Any Australian army man who commits this type of mass shooting here, should not have an army weapon after leaving the military, especially with the large percentage of PTSD amongst returned soldiers. It is up to the relevant authorities to correctly police this.

Pretty hard to tell a man trained in the use of military weapons that he is unfit to own a rifle. As Hasbeen has demonstrated here, it causes offence to those who are sensible gun owners.
I sympathize with Hasbeen, as I said above it is a catch 22 situation and I do have misgivings about the citizens of a country being unarmed. As we saw in England revolutions can happen in the blink of an eye and suddenly we may all need guns for self protection. It is a choice between the possible future loss of freedom and mass gun slaughters by idiots. Neither choice is easy.

After having gone through the rural version of the Qld floods early last year there's a DEFINITE need for protection if you're cut off from authority and surrounded by opportunistic predators. And THAT was a result of some rain. Couldn't imagine what it would be like if society collapsed. It would be all on for young and old.

Not disagreeing with you, StG, but how come we didn't hear about awful things happening to all those who were not armed during the floods?
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.a

Yes, you can look at things from both angles during that kind of event.
I noticed plenty of instances on TV where people who lived in the same street but who would normally not have much to do with each other, all chipping in, helping and cooperating with each other.

I noticed the same thing here in WA in the aftermath of a particularly vicious storm in June this year - people were out helping their neighbours position tarpaulins on roofs and helping clear fallen trees.

I am not stating fence sitting views here planet 3.
Bit biased by my fixed concerns re America.
And bit by my thanks we are not like that.
The Gun crime in NSW, surely we all know is unrelated to those poor unable to own a Gun folk.
In fact, forgive me, I see a special cowardice and yes, maybe a need to use a prop to manhood there.
Is the conversation trying to find reason we should not restrict ownership? I do not think so.
Would most of us agree if it was asked, are some unsuited to being able to own a weapon, who would disagree.

Ant,

IT was a general comment inferring that lack of consequence creates predators. There's a thousand modern day examples - New Orleans - where things went stupid beyond any humanity.

We were fortunate that isolation lasted 2 or 3 days. There wasn't enough time isolated from police for them to get too brazen, but there were people helping themselves to others property. People dressed as SES coming on boats asking if people need prescriptions refilled and never coming back. As soon as the water went down humanity came back. Old mate down the road charging 60 bucks to fill your gas bottle went back to normal prices etc etc.

Don't kid yourself about the "mateship" of Australians.

I don't think you need to prepare for the end of society, but be prepared for what it does to your neighbours if it happens.

StG,
You remind me of the famous science fiction writer, Robert Heinlein, who said, "Humanity is only ever three square meals away from a riot."
You may be right, but for now, I believe I will cling to a less cynical view of both our species and our culture.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Stg, Anthony,

Actually it's an interesting subject.
While we operate within the bounds of organised society, we manage during short events/ disasters to retain the psychological parameters which we operate in. However, if things break down completely, we very quickly revert to an instinctive model. This is frightening because it exposes just how visceral and animalistic we are under the veneer of civilisation. It's quite confronting, in fact when our base nature exposes us.

Notwithstanding, things have to break down considerably before such a reality overtakes us.

Ant,

Good luck with that. I think that's the reason the media failed/and are failing, to report to realities of what actually goes on in times like that. Keeping up the illusion. I'll bet you anything nearly everyone in New Orleans is now armed.

Poirot,

By 11am the first day, money, fuel, and food was gone from everywhere out here. How long do you think that 'considerable breakdown' would take from there given something the equivalent of the '04 tsunami taking out an ability to respond for say, two weeks to a month?

Maybe you're right StG,
But here's the thing.
You sound like you're scared.
Me? I prefer to live without fear.
And if that means living an illusion, then so be it.
Anthony
http://www.observationpint.com.au

StG,

The topic of this thread is about guns in "our present society"....A totally collapsed infrastructure and organisation is a different paradigm.

It's interesting to ponder, however. Unfortunately, I'm a bit busy today so will have to mull it over a little later.

Ant,

No, I'm not scared. I'm just conscious of the realities of human nature. I saw glimpses of the path to societal deconstruction and found myself bitter towards what we're capable of. By the way, the news has examples of human nature every hour. Maybe take some notice.

Poirot,

Of course, you're right.

Apologies to the original poster. My initial comment was loosely on topic but we're getting off topic.

StG,

You're right that these things are closely linked by subject. there's a lot of difference to weapons in a well ordered to society, and weapons in one that's lost the plot.

Food for thought.

Cheers : )

<< By the way, the news has examples of human nature every hour. Maybe take some notice. >>

StG,
I do take notice, but, as I've previously intimated, I prefer to focus on the extraordinary courage and generosity of which humanity is capable.
It's less dramatic, but no less valid.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Guns don't kill children. Children kill children.

im minded of switerland..the swiss..[all of em..must do some form of military serrvice..EVERY HOUSE HAS A GUN..[ok it might just be a rumour..but i note very few gun DEATHS..with the swiss

i got caught up by the horward paranoia..they tok 3 000 bucks worth of heritage and investment..my dads and my grandfathers guns..fines plus jail..thanks a lot mr howard..ya coward

lest we forget the cause behind it..bryant claims he was set up
[just so the law got a shove..its clasic howard one oh one..children over board worked a treat..and the abo military thing nearly pulled it off

but back to the gun issue..now my guns are gone..i fel govt should take yours..most guns used in crime are stolen?..or used by owners

most gun crime isnt by nutters on drugs..right?
bikies dont do all the shooting...right?

those who do these thing's..[ie pass laws to seize my assets tax my smokes cut my pension..their lawyers..lawyer love laws..love control..will love taking your guns

from your old cold dead hands
yes you may have guns..but your kids wont

you better believe it
i want my guns back john..are you gunj nutters going to help me

the cops didnt..they took them
cant wait till you know how thast feels

BBC Now Admits Al Qaeda Never Existed

http://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/bbc-now-admits-al-qaeda-never-existed/20810/


A BBC documentary on Al Qaeda admits the Bin Laden’s Organization never existed. Instead the US invented it out of thin air to fabricate criminal charges.

http://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/fbi-and-dhs-preparing-false-flag-attack-claim-domestic-terrorists-building-ieds/20807/

guns..or rather men with guns
OR KIDS WITH GUNS..child soulDIERS..for all those who died in war
yeah guns are a too0l of the devil..you dont need them to feed ya family..

no logical excuse for a wORKING gun
you can admire the thing..without it ejectulating..smoke into your eyes..
\
i know it affects hearing
and contains over 10o0 trace eliments/some carsinogenic
many toxic..but its deesigned to kill frequently and often

and aint it just too clever..
those needing excuse..to melt your killing sticks into metal shares

that one day god asks all who stand before him
whats ya kill ratio..any less than one in one thosand..ya not trying

anyhow how could you stand before god
pleading for your own life..after taking others lives?

The reasons why the Americans are so supportive of the ordinary citizen’s right to bear arms is probably because they have been through an American Civil War where they had to kick the ruling British out of America , and then again through another civil war between North and South. Australia hasn’t experienced anything like these internal wars yet. But our unarmed children or their children may.

On the other side of the argument who wants humans, some not much more intelligent than gorillas, walking around with such high powered weapons in times of peace. Then again Joanne Lees certainly could have used a rifle in such an isolated area.

CHERFULL I note your defense of American gun culture.
At the time of the American civil war my ancestors starved to death in the middle of City,s.
Soon with the opening of this then colony they got flogged and transported here in ships,some having lived on prison hulks for a decade.
On arrival they got hung for near nothing.
Surprised than pain, surely the equal to Americas war, did not lead to this generation sleeping with their teddy bear/Guns

Hi there ONE UNDER GOD...

I do thoroughly understand your grievence for the laws responsible for you losing your families heirlooms, their guns. And I'm very sorry for you.

The law was enacted far too quickly, and drafted by lawyers with little or no experience with F/A's per se.

You may have been able to retain them, if substantially modified -prevented from being used - irreversibly I'm afraid. And at your expense too. I don't know about you, I'd not want a bar of that !

In any event ONE UNDER GOD, you should have been compensated (in cash) for your loss. Or, provided they're NOT deemed to be a 'Prohibited Weapon', had them, and you, appropriately licensed.

You have my complete commiserations in this matter O.U.G. The Law, though necessary in some areas, was very poorly conceived, thus executed quite badly by everyone concerned.

Your remarks apropos John Howard, I don't agree with them. He had to do something ! He took advice (which is all he could do, when you think about it?), that advice, either good, bad or otherwise, is what he acted on.

Blame. as I do, Martin Bryant - murderer ! This will be the basis of my next topic, if you can all stand it ?

i hope we dont 'go there'..
the brandt topic..if you should go there..should be on the basis..of reviling the being..hating the deed..not the person..[or rather the soul decieved to murder

taught..it
built..his gun
suplied..his arms/munitions

who didnt speak up..these things arnt for the actual deed/rape murder theft..but because they WERE LEFT NO OTHER CHOICE*..or just love of POW'er..

or blackmailed..or from fear
or like in uk..a 'training/excersize'..like 911

yeah..i think in the main..they are..'training exersizes'
to test.."the system"..if we* chose
you wont blow up

but of course some do it for FAME
or copy FAMOUSE..media beatups..or movie plots

see many kill..just so their 'the next lee harvey oswald'..or the 'next' manson..or brant..etc..

i feel humanity..THAT FOUL*..dont deserve any name..
just a lable or a number..OUTCASTS GET NO NAME..no nationality..NO id..etc..
they are just nuthin*

the media beat-up fear..with names..
[lets kill the al'carda harder..or lets drop the nipsnatzies bronco's....its all about NAMES*..

DELETE..publicly..the COMPLETE public record from HIS-sTORY..of their name/education..

AS IF THEY NEVER WERE*..establish their peers

then isolate..or takeaway the toys
they would CHOSE..use..TO let LOOSE
on other..

but then media glorifies them..into heroes..
so then more nutters..emerge

our media..is saturated with negative crap..
more war in sport/watch the murder mystery..or the latest cop fiasco..or a bankheist..time for lotto..get blotto

the media..actaully takes off-air..the good stuff
repeating add nausium/names of those doing that most foul..nighly

MORE MURDERS..in one night on tv
than ACTUALLY..commited..

we dont got enough..fear
pulp fiction..ideas out there..

*RUBBISH-IN..RUBISH-OUT*
hate CREEPS-in.

curse's..upon the media//when it went private
they got all the peace stuff..[im presuming...
when we had it..it was for only news..

but back to these criminals..victimes of their own iignorance
look at that batman movie dude..you could see he was totally confused..the game wasnt giving him kudoss/dross/points for his skill of the kil

batman loves vilonce
dont name crims..lable their faces
[its time to update your reviled face again today

but the more we do to them
the more they cost us..and you cant legislate niceness

so

MAKE IT LIKE THE NEVER WERE BORN

but..dont lock them up..brain wash them..
and put them to use

i often thought foreign..and national aid..[put them in the never never...recognition society..is a thing we give all

if ya not with us your against us..a dead loss
plus a huge lifetime cost in jail..so we could..for only 2 dollars per day//pay others..to watch carefully..these lifers

but also care for..the brain dead or old..
ie..bacward/primative nations get our aid..by handeling our bad problems..giving them a more suitable environment as suits their vile nature..as revealed by their vile crimes..

l;ike take civilisation from them
not make comfortable hotels /capitalist prisons..lol.for em..

while our old people die..by adverse reation to presribed drugs..killing old people..is a huge ongoing slaughter
in old folks homes..[the same thing as a prison..but much like a dog pound..the nicer ones live longer

its true
but dont see no cops raiding no old peoples death houses

everyday..as many as bryant killed
\get put down..with drugs in hospitals old peoples homes..but not prisons?

we say TO THOSE..taking our problem
this beast..number xxxre..is not to be trusted..he is etc etc..

reveal..*FULL DETAILS what this animal; is/was HERE*

..the tribe gets the advantages of a civilised/educated..'person'..
no one trust's..!..but who can redeem by raissing good people..into civility..all watched live time via web cams..mobile devises..via one single com tower

they are there to allow then a new name
the old one is dead/gone..no more EVER*

nannjy can teach you
..who must prove him/her self WORTHY..*
the higher civilities..

[like that pole should get life..internationally for murder of so man

30 years is a joke
he get fan mail..setting up the next killer

so send where no mail goes..give aid for their comfort
trusting they be of use there..as they are of no use 'here'

that they CAN adopt the outcast*as one of them
or just watch him for us

next

also the STUPIDITY..of locking bread winners AWAY from their family
clearly when cops get involved..the problem is the whole family/peers

lock em all up..sort the trash..but keep the family together
send them overseas..as a unit*..[seems criminals love holiday camps.so send the WHOLE FAMILY unit away..not just the criminal CAUGHT THIS TIME*

lets go further//our old people attended by capitalists..for capital gain/medicated into early deaths...THIS IS GOING TO FAIL*..must end

WHY ARNT POLICE POLICING OLD PEOPLES HOMES

anyhow as usual i got a cure..holidays..we borrow your 4 bed..3 bed or whatever house..and we give you equal or better occomidation on floating holiday cruises

much like the barges of old..but sightseeing gambling arround the world..the better off on better quality whine

\anyhow..so how do i get govt to restore my only means of income
without begging them..i gave them..some of their best ideas..and my reward..cut off my base pension..

just cause i fight the lawyers in their own courts..visited many of their jails as a client...al because they declared war on kids using a plant..BUT CAUSE OF THAT LIE..now drugs..thrue drugs..usually some powerder/pill or liquid..will addict your kid

or send your kid..off to die in war
if it wasnt for thye drug money..[THE ONLY NEW*..money..going into banks..the whole lawyer /public servant union two paryty farce would have fell long ago..

little mention is made of the facts..pirates..voted for their captain
demonic aurto-crazey..the deevils love it so

socialism for capitalists*
lol

feel like dorethy in the land of oz
ohzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

continues

Hi again ONE UNDER GOD...

I believe you're right about the Swiss, undertaking formal military training. And having done so, they're required to keep and maintain their military weapon secured at their home, including a quantity of munitions.

True also, you don't often hear of a swiss national suddenly 'going postal' either. Why ? I'd guess there'd be many many rifles and handguns available to the swiss also. But it's only in the United States, where they continually seem to have these horrific gun crimes.

Gotta be something in the water perhaps ? A very strange and violent world we live in, I think ?

Take it easy O U G.

Cheers...Sung Wu.