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The Forum > General Discussion > Are Upper Houses Democratic

Are Upper Houses Democratic

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Belly,
I do not know where you get the idea that upper house members are criminals. From time to time we hear of parliamentarians that transgress the law, and they are from all parties and from both houses.

Maybe we should do away with political parties and just elect a person or two for each electorate. Then they elect a PM who chooses the ministers to form Cabinett. Then do away with the Upper houses.

But if you want real democracy, have a look at Citizen Initiated Referenda or CIR. That means if a certain number of electors petition the government about a matter, the government HAS to take it to a referendum at the next election. This makes the government very carefull about introducing new laws and explains them properly to the electorate. Fat chance of us getting a CIR here because it takes some power away from the pollies, and they like power.

Power is why we have compulsory preferential voting as it favours the two major parties.

There has long been debate about the neccessity of upper houses, but I would not say they were undemocratic. The states required them so i expect them to be around for some time. Who knows, your hated greens may get wiped out at the next election and one of the majors holding sway in the Senate.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 4 July 2012 11:16:36 PM
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Lexi/Banjo, well my days of influence are over.
I had some once had more knowledge and understanding of politics than many I worked with.
Some stayed in bed after long nights in the pub at conferences .
I mixed with every one and gained some respect in some quarters.
Rudd drove my rep, I saw his worth long before others.
I am now an activist, foot soldier, not one to push my own billy cart those left behind have mostly forgotten me in the rush to be in front in the self interest stakes.
I pulled the barrow of my members so won every time.
But still know Democracy is poorly served by Parliaments like this one.
Look at the madness behind some upper house seat holders.
Look too at the greens! come Banjo their mother could not love them!
I understand I will be stoned, can Even tell with what words, but one house, one vote one value.
And fixed term elections, say 30 months.
Will re introduce accountability.
Yes we may get a look nice and do nothing government but may not.
Right now the upper house serves the Liberals ONLY, but one day it will not be so.
Further change? take the south Australian SCANDAL! hiding the name of a PEDOPHILE!
Any person committing any crime while a member should after being found guilty be imprisoned.
Including those who insult honesty by hiding this Margot.
Why have 85% of us put two party's in the lower house.
Then have the owners of 15% stop them governing and call it democracy? be fair dinkum!
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 5 July 2012 7:39:13 AM
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Belly,
I detest the greens, and their policies, as much as you. I am a practical bloke and what they say and do makes no sense to me. However i recognise that they, like Fred Nile, have a right to be there as they won enough votes.

Frankly there are too many obstacles now to new parties being formed and the whole system is much in favour of the major parties, as they have seen to that. As much as i dislike the policies of some minors I will defend their right to be heard.

The only reason that minor parties and/or independants have balance of power in the Senate is because one of the majors did not get sufficient support from the electorate. The majors themselves are to blame for that. You know, I think it is because of the arrogance of the majors, they think they are the only ones and continue to didtate to us instead of listening and governing for us. Instead of listening to the electorate they employ consultants at our expense, no wonder they are out of touch.

Some time ago, I saw a video of a UK minister, who was Muslim, speaking to an audience and he was speaking about the future appointment of a muslim Prime Minister in the UK. 30 years ago that would have been laughed at, but things change. You are constantly saying that you are 'forever' ALP but i take that with a grain of salt because if the ALP moved far enough away from your ideology I think you would leave them. Even now they are not what they used to be and, as you say, most politicians have only self interest at heart.

No Belly, the right for minor parties and independants to be elected is very important for our democracy.
Posted by Banjo, Thursday, 5 July 2012 9:34:51 AM
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Hi Belly,

Just on the score of democracy. I see KKK has resigned (as predicted by me before the last NSW election) from the state seat of Heffron. You remember Kristina whats her name with the hair doo. Its a pity when a politician gives an undertaking to serve a full term if elected, like KKK did. To bad she couldn't even apologise to those who voted her into Heffron for giving them the flick. See if my other prediction comes true Keneally bobs up at the next federal election in Garretts seat of Kingsford-Smith. If she achieves another 16% swing against her it will be goodbye Kristina for ever. With only a 7% margin she might be hanging out for Green preferences.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 5 July 2012 10:13:08 AM
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I do not think the thread will continue as we are bogged in a wet paddock.
Paul 1405 I have little regard for that lady, never have, saw/see her as a puppet of two very grubby grubs.
You need to note if I got my wishes there would be no Green party.
Even you must know half your voters are unhappy ALP ones, as one Nation was unhappy Liberals.
And while voting Green return to Labor in preferences.
Now for both Bazz and you, my views are too much power is won in upper houses by too few votes.
IF that is not true count your lower house seats and tell me why.
And too often too much power becomes pure obstruction.
In time, both majors will put another slave party in those houses,much like the Nationals are for Liberals.
To eat up preferences, any seats won service the majors, certainly better than family first!
Any party, newly formed properly based, with worth while plans can still see elected members and growth.
My party wallows along behind a bad leader but in other times it will be the other side agreeing with me.
Not one contributor has try-ed to answer my question, what damage has been done to QLD good footballers, by only haveing one house.
I add to that now, what benefits come to NSW by haveing an upper house that has to sell out most of the states voters to pass bills?
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 5 July 2012 12:09:11 PM
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"You need to note if I got my wishes there would be no Green party."
Since the ALP is in the main no longer a progressive party concerned with social justice its only natural that conservatives would like to see no Green party.
"Even you must know half your voters are unhappy ALP ones"
As a one time ALP member I suppose I fit into that category.
Belly I know you will find this hard to believe but there are actually voters out there who support our policies. If you are continually fed a diet of Piers Akerman and Alan Jones you to will be convinced that the perfect world is a conservative one run as an economy for the benefit of the one percent.
"And while voting Green return to Labor in preferences."
This may not always be the case. I strongly support preferencing progressive Liberals, something that is gaining support within the Greens.
"my views are too much power is won in upper houses by too few votes." You cannot be referring to the Greens as 1,800,000 Senate votes can not be classed as a 'few votes'. Adam Bandt represents the 1,400,000 who voted Green in the lower house.
Failure to support bad knee jerk policy could be seen as "pure obstruction" by those who support bad knee jerk policy.
"My party (Labor) wallows along" Belly finally something I can totally agree with.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 5 July 2012 9:16:39 PM
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