Are we forever linked to the Westminster system?
Surely the house of Lords that place for useless old folk to forget it is no longer the 1800,s is proof we need not.
QLD thanks to a past ALP government has only one house, a seemingly dangerous[T I C] side effect is, the elected government is able to govern!
NSW after a landslide victory over the rotting mess my ALP was that day can not!
We ALP whimper about big Barry, but ignore it was us who installed him.
And too if it was us would be just as upset that we could not rule.
NSW has two shooters party members, gaining shooting rights in national parks and wanting much more, from what voting base?
Radical Christians owners of few votes, can and do control government here too.
WHY.
Now the Greens, from a peak of 12% of the vote they over rule every one, as Labor and Liberal do too, why.
Do we want an elected government to be held to ransom by any other party.
Surely without even considering the American or British system we can drop upper houses?

The non-democratic nature of upper houses pales in comparison to the non-democratic nature of lower houses.

The regional-voting system, non-proportional "First Past the Post", that we have for the lower houses make us helpless hostages of the two big parties, who like Tweedledum and Tweedledee are nearly identical and collude to kick us forever like a ball between them.

The upper houses have the potential of making it just a fraction more difficult for Tweedledum and Tweedledee to serve further oppressing decrees against us, ordinary people, and for that I support them.

Yuyutsu,

I think that's very well put.

Well done!

I'm with you Belly. As for some sort of proportional voting, that would give us, in the lower house, the same sort of garbage that currently inhabits the national upper house.

God forbid. Hell we could get to be almost as bad as that bunch of twits over the Tasman, or the idiots across Bass Straight.

The horror of the thought makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up on end.

Dear Hasbeen,

<<that would give us, in the lower house, the same sort of garbage that currently inhabits the national upper house>>

Thanks for letting us know that you consider real people (as opposed to politicians), their real concerns and their real pains as "garbage" and that "God-forbid" if they ever be represented and have a real say over the decrees that limit their lives.

yuytsu you are quite wrong.
We do not have a first past the post system.
We have preferential voting.
You under mine your view and Poirot by false statements.
In the lower house many sit who ran third Wilkie and the single green for a start.
You divert the thread with a wrong statement , but it is my view first past the post , one vote one value is the best.
In time it would end silly party's.
upper houses too stop majority's being heard.
NSW sees a huge victory but inability to pass legislation.
Two shooters party bargained to allow government to sell power by getting their way.
Shooting in national parks.
Both agony for most voters and undemocratic.
We will be bombarded with the view we should dump party's and have only independents, hung Parliaments forever.
And warned about fairness and equity from minor party supporters who will refuse to see their representation from such a base stands firmly in from of the views of four times their combined numbers.
Preferential voting and upper houses are supported by the interests of party's most of us do not want.
We do not majority's to be ruled by minority's to prove we are fair, in fact fairness is the reverse.

Belly,

You are right that we have a preferential system, but that does keep us in the thrall of the two majors....so it's still a matter of tweedledee and tweedledum. (I misread Yuyutsu's meaning when I replied, although I agree with the rest of his post)

The senate at least can act like a house of review if barking madness and ultra- megalomania overtake a government at any given time

The upper house is intended to give us proportional representation across the State. This should be the responsibility of voters and not the Parties lobbying minors. No voting above the line as this gives the Major parties their choice of preference. All preferenced votes of the voter should be counted till they exhaust. This would exclude unknown persons with wacky policies.

Preferential voting is there to protect us from having an elected
member that the majority DID NOT want.

The upper house is a different matter.
It was a requirement of the states at federation.

Bazz hold on, do we say we change nothing that was part of the federation agreement.
That took in fighting to put together and even the American constitution has been changed.
We know, or surely are equipped to comment, that in about 1956 QLD Labor abolished the upper house.
Poirot, I understand,but disagree with the thoughts you hold.
Howard is proof even major party's can hold all views, he was forced to back down by members of his own party on boat people.
My belief that we give too much power to small/minor party's, see Victoria, ALP preferences , yes ALP, put DLP our deadly enemy, servants of the increasingly questionable Catholic Church in that upper house.
I contend there is room in EVERY PARTY for those holding minority views.
And that IF those views have real Merritt real support they will get to be laws.
This hung Parliament, troubles our country.
Focus is not governing but winning.
I am sure if we asked do we want another one most would say never.
While I charge Liberals who insult two independents but not the one who sides with them fools.
I think we would be better with one house one winner.
I am confident most, far more than small party's want to admit, resent small voting bases over ruling majority's.
Is this true? even a tiny bit? if greens get balance in the upper house and Liberals win a landslide, is it democracy or the opposite?
One vote one value one house not a parking spot for minority's.
I fear the death of true democracy if minority's continue to have that much value for so little votes.

Whoa Belly, I never suggested that we could not change anything.

The House of Reps has 150 Members each of whom
represents about 80,000 voters living in one
particular area (or electorate). Victoria and
NSW have the largest populations, therefore
most of the members of the House of Reps come
from these two states.

This is balanced by the Senate, where all states
no matter what their populations have the same
number of senators. The Senate has 76 senators -
12 are elected for each of the six states, and two
each for the ACT and the Northern Territory.

The Senate gives fairer representation to the states
especially those with smaller populations but larger
land masses. It also keeps of House of Reps on their
toes.

I think this balance works rather well. Members of
the House of Reps get to know the people in their
electorates and local issues. When in Parliament
they speak on behalf of the people in their
electorate, discuss proposals for new laws,(Bills),
and important national matters.

Senators debate current issues, consider the Bills
(proposed new laws), committee reports, and papers
presented (or tabled) by ministers in Parliament.
They travel to meet the people in their state and
take the views they hear back to Parliament.

I am of the view that these two houses help strengthen
governments and make them more stable and accountable.
But that's only my opinion, for what it's worth. And I
am not suggesting that we shouldn't be open to making
changes. However, before we do - we want to make sure
that the changes we make are going to improve things.
I dare say that when and if we ever decide to become a
Republic - then we can begin to look at the various
models available and select the one that is the best.
At present we're not doing badly with what we've got.

cont'd ...

Abolishing the Senate would give more power to the
more populous states to the greater disadvantage
of all the other states - both politically and
financially.

Hmmm Lexi, I have for a long time thought that maybe it would be
better to get rid of the state governments.
We are annoyed by "them" always saying it is the state or feds.

Merge councils, say three into one, and remove the states.
Good idea ?

Dear Belly,

Yes, I got the name of our electoral-system wrong. I stand corrected.

However, it doesn't change the essence, which is that minorities in Australia cannot for all intents and purposes be represented (unless they happen to live in the same arbitrary geographical division).

Recently, for example, a German court ruled that [non-medical] circumcision is illegal. Nothing could be worse for an orthodox Jew, who would even give up his life to fulfill what they believe to be God's commandment to circumcise one's son. Now I'm not personally in favour of circumcision, so that's just an example, but such an event would rightly prompt Jews to form their "Jewish party" that would run for parliament in attempt to avert that terrible decree.

A Jewish party with 1-2 MPs would then negotiate with the major parties somewhere along the lines of "If you allow us to circumcise our sons, then we will give you a free hand in other areas, supporting your policies on budget/taxes/foreign-policy/immigration/AGW/etc." - now what's fairer than that? shouldn't minorities be allowed to defend what's most dear to them, at times dearer than life?

I could provide 100 more examples of things that are most dear to certain minorities, where the sacrifice required by the majority to accommodate these, if any, is minimal. It is quite possible that yourself, Belly, will find yourself one day in such a minority, and it is quite possible that at that time nobody 'up there' will be willing to listen to you and your cries of grief. The existing electoral system is not only unjust - it is cruel!

Dear Bazz,

The duplicity of states and feds is indeed annoying: I therefore say, let's get rid of the feds!

This way, if I fall in a bad state with impossibly-cruel laws, then I could at least move to another state, but if there is only one federal entity, then where shall I escape other than into the ocean feeding my body to the sharks?

Dear Bazz,

No. I don't think it's a good idea. I don't like
the idea of a future Australia that depicts a
scene with mini-nations instead of states; a
continent without a federal parliament, without
social welfare, public health or education, without
any co-ordination of trade or economic policies.
I find that view disturbing.

I am getting very much what was expected here.
Maybe I am wrong, we all could benefit by understanding we may be.
Once only the DLP was seen to hold power in say the senate, a balance? no control.
The now dead, and it was self inflicted Democrats, passed, and I agreed, Howard's GST, why? to win special wishes.
Who of us has seen an individual senator vote against their party's interests? so much for representation.
How many of us can point to one thing the greens, on 12% gave ground on, in the interests of other than their followers.
In my state, NSW we have an upper house, controlled in the now normal balanced way.
Fred Niles extremist self serving Christians.
And two, one shaky on honesty grounds shooters party.
How can a landslide victory not let that party rule?
Labor or Liberal, an elected government should not be controlled by so few voters.
What is the point of democracy if minority's can strangle it.
Show me the damage inflicted on QLD by it not haveing an upper house for 56 years

Lexi, I did not suggest getting rid of the Commonwealth government.
It would take over all the state govt functions except a few that could
be passed to the larger councils.

Dear Lexi,

I think you were addressing my post, not Bazz's.

Even if our views about the items you mentioned may differ: social welfare; public health; education; co-ordination of trade; and economic policies, none of these requires a federation. In principle, these policies need not change at all once Australia becomes a confederation instead of a federation. The fact that there will be no federal parliament does not mean that states could no longer talk between them - as equal and voluntary partners of course.

The main reason for abolishing the federation is not to cease welfare, health, education or trade, but to allow individuals more remedies against state-oppression:

If one state forbids circumcision, or kosher/halal food, then Jews and Muslims can move to another.
If one state forbids carrying the ritual dagger, then Sikhs can move to another.
If one state forbids home-births, effectively incarcerating pregnant women in hospitals, then women can travel to give birth in other states.
If one state mandates immunisation, then those who cannot accept it can move to another state which doesn't.
If one state forbids riding a bicycle (without a helmet), then another state may allow it.
If one state forbids a person from practicing a given trade, say on the grounds that s/he is not deemed to be sufficiently qualified, then they may still be able to practice their trade in another state.
If one state forbids gay-marriage, then perhaps other states will allow it.
If one state forbids abortions, then perhaps other states will allow it.
If one state forbids euthanasia, then perhaps other states will allow it.
If one state forbids swimming-pools without chlorine and it's very important for someone to have it, then they can move to another state where chlorine is not required.
If one state requires all water to be treated with fluorides and one is allergic, they can move to another state where fluoride is not mandatory.

The list goes on and on and on. The things you care most for yourself and your family may also one day appear on this list!

Yuysu recently, here in this forum I saw in one of your posts, the thought us westerners have far different thoughts and ideas than your self.
Excuse me for again saying what I think, but are you sure your views are shared by most?
I think the thread is about the changing nature of upper houses.
And the effects of those changes on Democracy.
I am yet to find any thing better than that system.
Let us think together,is it likely NSW voters,haveing delivered a very big win to Liberal coalition, almost a wipe out.
Are content that the upper house held the government to ransom?
Barry OFarrel is, rightly so, seen as a failure, but some of that is because of the upper house.
Did voters want shooters party representation? lessons in gun craft in schools? shooting in national parks?
Are we all aware of the nature of the Reverend Fred [mad as a hatter] Niles history? his demands of governments?
Can Democracy continue to deliver landslides but be stalled in upper house by far less than 20% of votes?
Make it a criminal offense to stop ANY PARTY'S members crossing the floor but get rid of upper houses.
If minority's continue to block majority's then we face some thing other than Democracy.
Greens, tell me it is untrue,try to hold the wishes of 88 in every hundred up so only they say how some issues are handled, is that ok?

Belly,

Just a thought...
Remember when the Howard government gained control of the Senate as well. They wasted no time in going to extremes and introducing Work Choices. This led to their ultimate demise because when they had the power they went too far in the eyes of the electorate - and that electorate delivered in return a crushing defeat.

You're right that the upper house can stymy a government's intentions, but it can also protect the electorate from the excesses of power.

Dear Poirot,

That is precisely the point I've been trying to
make - but you did it so much better. I totally
agree - we need to keep that balance.

The benefit of an upper house, is that many of its members recognize that they are responsible to all the voters in the state or country. About 70% of the MPs in the lower houses of Parliament refuse to deal with voters other than those in their own electorates. i.e those on whose votes they are dependent. This completely ignores their role as legislators producing good laws and policies for all citizens. This cozy neglect of their duty, prevents ordinary voters having significant influence on what government does. These same MPs are only too happy to meet and talk with party members and political donors or citizens of great wealth and influence, who do not reside in their electorates. Upper house members all over Australia have been excellent in assisting voters on matters of personal state and national importance. They also moderate the self interested party political antics of those with large majorities in lower houses.

For any person to influence government via elected MPs, they must influence more than half of them. It is no good trying to influence government, simply via one local MP who may have no influence within his or her party and be of no consequence to other parties in parliament. Few governments will help a voter via an opposition MP, thus making that MP look good to the voters, that is the opposite of their long term aim of controlling government themselves.

Poirot and Lexi,
What you say is correct, when a party obtains government and does not have control of the upper house it has to put up with that or have a double disolution.

One must not forget that enough people voted for minor parties or independants to have their seat in the upper house, and rightly have input into legislation. In NSW the Greens, Fred Nile and independants have had influence on legislation, some of which I consider good and some of which not so good. Now the Shooters and Fishers Party are using their influence to gain access to some national Parks to hunt feral animals, which detract from the natural enviroment. I see nothing wrong with that. Nor do I see the introduction of shooting as a sport into those schools that want that sport for their students.

Maybe if there had been an upper house in Queensland it may have had a braking effect on the government and the rout at the last election may not have been as great.

We must be carefull not to do anything that prevents the formation of new political parties, they cannot be expected to be born fully grown. Labor and Liberal may not be the only major parties in future.

It is very much in the eye of the beholder.
Yes Howard acted that way.
He paid for it.
Greens acted that way just recently,they will pay for it.
Mid his term Kevin Rudd would have walked in a Double Dissolution election.
He did not call one we pay for it.
Why is QLD not damaged by not haveing an upper house?
Why do the facts show minority's seemingly miss use upper houses.
If they are right why is their basic support expressed mainly via the easier path upper houses.
If Labor is beaten, and that is likely, Abbott's replacement will call a dd election.
And control both houses, for a decade, how is that balance.
How can greens extremism be called balance?
Minority's controlling any balance is unbalanced sure we agree?

Dear Belly,

In a democracy, no minority can control an upper house: if a government doesn't like the minor parties, then they always have the option of negotiating with the main opposition. If they still fail getting a policy out, then it simply means that the given policy has no majority.

<<Excuse me for again saying what I think, but are you sure your views are shared by most?>>

They probably are not, for the moment - so what? Are you trying to imply that I'm not entitled to have a life of following my sacred principles (so long as I don't hurt others)?

You seem to favour the idea that the largest elected political party deserves everything - full and absolute control over the lives of all people who happen to live in the continent: One for the master and one for the dame, but none for the little boy who cries in the lane!

For those who advocate democracy, here is what it means - that 51% of the [adult] population are entitled to screw the other 49%, that if they liked they could even, in a perfectly democratic way, with proper legislative process, torture the 49% and send them to the gas chambers. Do you still think that democracy is fair?

I don't think that anyone can accuse me, a vegetarian, of sympathising with the Shooters and Fishers, but hey, for them shooting/fishing is the most important and meaningful thing in life, disgusting as it is, that's their "baby", their reason to live, so they went out of their way to form a party just for that. I believe that your "baby", Belly, happens to be Industrial Relations (I don't agree with your IR views, but that's besides the point and context of this discussion). What's wrong then, for Christ sake, with a compromise deal, with the minimal sacrifice of you (and me) allowing those people to shoot feral animals while they allow you to legislate as you please on IR matters? What's wrong with sharing some wool with the little boy who cries in the lane?

Dear Banjo,

Who knows what the future may bring.
I suspect that we may see a few more
Independents in Parliament. I also
suspect that the Greens may go the way
of the Democrats because of their
inflexibility. My son who used to support
the Greens is now having second thoughts
because of their recent failure to compromise.
It should be interesting to see what happens
at the next election.

Dear Belly,

Minorities also deserve to have a voice in a
parliamentary democracy. But they also risk
being ousted at the next election if they
don't listen to the people who vote for them.

Lexi do you approve of Xenophon? did you like or respect the family first senator.
Is a six year term too long.
Remember these minor players need only gather a small, but, community wide following to win that length mostly preferences.
With two majors unlikely these days to have enought numbers, it is usual that the balance of power will be important.
As recently in NSW, that brings about trade offs.
I have been a sporting shooter,but do not approve of shooting in National parks, by other than very trusted shooters.
So in letting NSW sell its power and the trade off being teaching kids about shooting is that what most want?
Who approves of greens actions on boat people? did your heart jump this morning as 180 faced[or we feared they did]death?
At times upper houses include some removed as criminals, small one man party's, who are these balancers to democracy?
Again I will get no answer but what is wrong in QLD because they have no upper house.
House of review? only words, increasingly they are home of Greens and very minor party's unable to get support in real house lower ones so spoiling in upper houses.
What next a house of lords?
Australia should go its own way
Reduce terms, one house one vote one value and accountability will strengthen.

Dear Belly,

We can argue backwards and forwards until the
cows come home. However, nothing will change
unless we put pressure on our elected members
with new ideas and suggestions. If you feel so
strongly on this issue - make your voice heard
by those who can implement change.

Malcolm Turnbull had an idea, for the Republic.
- the Government of
the day put up a cleverly-worded Referendum which
was rejected. However, this will not stop others
from trying again in the future.

If enough people support specific ideas - and pressure
is applied on the MPs - changes do eventuate. Look at
same-sex marriage - currently under discussion.
I guess the whole point is - to keep persevering in what
you believe and people will eventually come on board.

Belly,
I do not know where you get the idea that upper house members are criminals. From time to time we hear of parliamentarians that transgress the law, and they are from all parties and from both houses.

Maybe we should do away with political parties and just elect a person or two for each electorate. Then they elect a PM who chooses the ministers to form Cabinett. Then do away with the Upper houses.

But if you want real democracy, have a look at Citizen Initiated Referenda or CIR. That means if a certain number of electors petition the government about a matter, the government HAS to take it to a referendum at the next election. This makes the government very carefull about introducing new laws and explains them properly to the electorate. Fat chance of us getting a CIR here because it takes some power away from the pollies, and they like power.

Power is why we have compulsory preferential voting as it favours the two major parties.

There has long been debate about the neccessity of upper houses, but I would not say they were undemocratic. The states required them so i expect them to be around for some time. Who knows, your hated greens may get wiped out at the next election and one of the majors holding sway in the Senate.

Lexi/Banjo, well my days of influence are over.
I had some once had more knowledge and understanding of politics than many I worked with.
Some stayed in bed after long nights in the pub at conferences .
I mixed with every one and gained some respect in some quarters.
Rudd drove my rep, I saw his worth long before others.
I am now an activist, foot soldier, not one to push my own billy cart those left behind have mostly forgotten me in the rush to be in front in the self interest stakes.
I pulled the barrow of my members so won every time.
But still know Democracy is poorly served by Parliaments like this one.
Look at the madness behind some upper house seat holders.
Look too at the greens! come Banjo their mother could not love them!
I understand I will be stoned, can Even tell with what words, but one house, one vote one value.
And fixed term elections, say 30 months.
Will re introduce accountability.
Yes we may get a look nice and do nothing government but may not.
Right now the upper house serves the Liberals ONLY, but one day it will not be so.
Further change? take the south Australian SCANDAL! hiding the name of a PEDOPHILE!
Any person committing any crime while a member should after being found guilty be imprisoned.
Including those who insult honesty by hiding this Margot.
Why have 85% of us put two party's in the lower house.
Then have the owners of 15% stop them governing and call it democracy? be fair dinkum!

Belly,
I detest the greens, and their policies, as much as you. I am a practical bloke and what they say and do makes no sense to me. However i recognise that they, like Fred Nile, have a right to be there as they won enough votes.

Frankly there are too many obstacles now to new parties being formed and the whole system is much in favour of the major parties, as they have seen to that. As much as i dislike the policies of some minors I will defend their right to be heard.

The only reason that minor parties and/or independants have balance of power in the Senate is because one of the majors did not get sufficient support from the electorate. The majors themselves are to blame for that. You know, I think it is because of the arrogance of the majors, they think they are the only ones and continue to didtate to us instead of listening and governing for us. Instead of listening to the electorate they employ consultants at our expense, no wonder they are out of touch.

Some time ago, I saw a video of a UK minister, who was Muslim, speaking to an audience and he was speaking about the future appointment of a muslim Prime Minister in the UK. 30 years ago that would have been laughed at, but things change. You are constantly saying that you are 'forever' ALP but i take that with a grain of salt because if the ALP moved far enough away from your ideology I think you would leave them. Even now they are not what they used to be and, as you say, most politicians have only self interest at heart.

No Belly, the right for minor parties and independants to be elected is very important for our democracy.

Hi Belly,

Just on the score of democracy. I see KKK has resigned (as predicted by me before the last NSW election) from the state seat of Heffron. You remember Kristina whats her name with the hair doo. Its a pity when a politician gives an undertaking to serve a full term if elected, like KKK did. To bad she couldn't even apologise to those who voted her into Heffron for giving them the flick. See if my other prediction comes true Keneally bobs up at the next federal election in Garretts seat of Kingsford-Smith. If she achieves another 16% swing against her it will be goodbye Kristina for ever. With only a 7% margin she might be hanging out for Green preferences.

I do not think the thread will continue as we are bogged in a wet paddock.
Paul 1405 I have little regard for that lady, never have, saw/see her as a puppet of two very grubby grubs.
You need to note if I got my wishes there would be no Green party.
Even you must know half your voters are unhappy ALP ones, as one Nation was unhappy Liberals.
And while voting Green return to Labor in preferences.
Now for both Bazz and you, my views are too much power is won in upper houses by too few votes.
IF that is not true count your lower house seats and tell me why.
And too often too much power becomes pure obstruction.
In time, both majors will put another slave party in those houses,much like the Nationals are for Liberals.
To eat up preferences, any seats won service the majors, certainly better than family first!
Any party, newly formed properly based, with worth while plans can still see elected members and growth.
My party wallows along behind a bad leader but in other times it will be the other side agreeing with me.
Not one contributor has try-ed to answer my question, what damage has been done to QLD good footballers, by only haveing one house.
I add to that now, what benefits come to NSW by haveing an upper house that has to sell out most of the states voters to pass bills?

"You need to note if I got my wishes there would be no Green party."
Since the ALP is in the main no longer a progressive party concerned with social justice its only natural that conservatives would like to see no Green party.
"Even you must know half your voters are unhappy ALP ones"
As a one time ALP member I suppose I fit into that category.
Belly I know you will find this hard to believe but there are actually voters out there who support our policies. If you are continually fed a diet of Piers Akerman and Alan Jones you to will be convinced that the perfect world is a conservative one run as an economy for the benefit of the one percent.
"And while voting Green return to Labor in preferences."
This may not always be the case. I strongly support preferencing progressive Liberals, something that is gaining support within the Greens.
"my views are too much power is won in upper houses by too few votes." You cannot be referring to the Greens as 1,800,000 Senate votes can not be classed as a 'few votes'. Adam Bandt represents the 1,400,000 who voted Green in the lower house.
Failure to support bad knee jerk policy could be seen as "pure obstruction" by those who support bad knee jerk policy.
"My party (Labor) wallows along" Belly finally something I can totally agree with.

Paul know I think you are in all probability a good person.
But too you seem to want a past that is gone.
American Constitution says words something like.
Government for the people,by the people.
How many independents sit in both houses there.
Can you justify your extraordinary claims that Labor is no longer the party of change?
National superannuation scheme, NBN, Carbon reduction scheme, we set the Australian economy on its path with free banking and bought our nation in to this century.
Got rid of work choices.
PAUL greens could not have the power to stop a fix for boat people and much more.
Not have the power to threaten coal and growth.
Not be this country's most despised party.
Without upper houses and preference voting.
You streeetch the string in sprouting your lower house seat, the gentle man won only on Liberal preferences.
Paul, how many Liberals wanted him in the house?
As he is virtually ALP will they put him there again.
What of your stated numbers are second choice/preferences?
Why do some, not even know in effect they vote green by this dysfunctional system?
One vote one house no second choice party's that is Democracy.

I'm sure in the 'World of Belly' all you say is true. However in the real world most of what you say above is rubbish. Lets have a look.
You refer to America, is this the ideal model we aspire to here in Australia. I wont waste time attacking US hypocrisy.
"Can you (Paul) justify your extraordinary claims that Labor is no longer the party of change?"
When it comes to social justice issues Labor is found wanting, gay marriage, asylum seekers, militarism, the environment, social welfare, the list goes on. The reforms you refer to are nothing more than tinkering with the present system. If that system was all good then why the fix?
"threaten coal" how dare anyone threaten coal, what is good for big coal, big oil, big mining, big business, is good for all, just ask Gina Rinehart she should know, she's big enough.
"Not be this country's most despised party." That is true in the 'World of Belly' just read Piers Akerman or listen to Al Jones, they speak for the silent majority, do they not?
"One vote one house no second choice party's that is Democracy." Do you have a death wish for your beloved Labor Party, In the 'World of Belly', where all but the 'big two' are tolirated, the ALP might win 100% of the seats with a first past the post voting system, but in the real world without preferences the ALP would be history.

Belly,

I have to agree with Paul in that Labor has morphed into something I never considered it to be. It seems most Western countries have gone down the same road in their courting of big business to the exclusion of other things worthwhile.

When I began homeschooling, I was in touch with a few people in Canada and the U.S. who I looked to for guidance. During one email, one woman, a magazine editor and writer and all round intelligent and inspiring person, happened to idly mention to me that she used to lead the Green Party in Canada in the mid-nineties, but that she'd resigned early on in the piece for various reasons thinking she could do more for the cause through writing. Unfortunately, in Canada's case, Green influence has waned - perhaps she should have stayed on with the advent of abominations like this:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/03/canadian-oil-sands/essick-photography

There's no substitute for true integrity of purpose, something most Greens display.

Hi Poirot,

As one who is a Green party member and an activist I've got to meet a large number of Greens and what a diverse group, young idealists, trade unionist, ex army, academics, politicians, my partner, old blokes like me, the list goes on.
Its easy to be popular just ask Bob The Silver Bodgie, love ya beer meat pies and footy, which I do too. Be pragmatic, embrace the consensus view. However I believe what you say is more important "true integrity of purpose" have principles, believe in your convictions, stick with your personal morality and fight for what you believe in.
At times it would be so easy to jettison your convictions and cave in to populism, we all love to be loved, but I've found most things that are worth while are not easy to obtain and you will have to confront opposition from many corners. If you stick to your convictions but at times be prepared to compromise and listen to the other blokes point of view, then just maybe the outcome in the end might be the best all round.

Belly

<<my views are too much power is won in upper houses by too few votes.>>

Too true.

And you’re close to the mark with these:
<< greens could not have the power to stop a fix for boat people and much more>>
<< Not have the power to threaten coal and growth>>

And you’re spot on with this too:
<<You streeetch the string in sprouting your lower house seat, the gentle man won only on Liberal preference>>

Surely the liberals wont be stupid enough to make the same mistake the second time around!

So it will be bye bye Adam (hopefully that *delightful* Sarah Hanson-Young will suffer the same fate) and lookie lookie for a new deputy leader --hmmm I wonder if they will still have sufficient numbers to form quorum!

The Green’s have few workable polices the only consistent things about them is they’re good at telling jokes –like this rib tickler from Poirot : “there's no substitute for true integrity of purpose, something most Greens display”

ROFL

What's that sinister snickering in the background?

Up off the floor, SPQR!

You're easily amused. I wonder how the Libs minus the Nats would go with one vote one value?

Poirot, look who's in bed together! There is Belly in the center, Tony on the right, and SPQR on the far right, no one wants to be on the left. LOL.

Now for the important issue of the day. The Girl Guides have gone commie and ditched God and the Queen. As one 11 year old Bolshe guide said "all I want to do is go camping and win badges."
That kind of attitude wont be tolerated. Get a job girly!
Thankfully the Queen has reacted with her usual decorum and awarded Wills the Royal Order of the Potted Plant or something. Thanks be to God.

Paul,

"...The girl Guides have gone commie and ditched God and the Queen..."

Well, Hurrumph to that!

In that case, I'm sure SPQR will waste no time in handing in his resignation.

: )

A little music to lighten things up—just for you Paul

Ten green sen'tors sitting in de house
If a double d election the PM she did call
By 8PM on countin night that ten to nine would fall

Nine green sen'tors sitting in de house
If a double d election the PM she did call
By 9PM on countin night that nine to eight would fall

Eight green sen'tors sitting in de house
If a double d election the PM she did call
By 10 PM on countin night that eight to seven would fall

Seven green sen'tors sitting in de house
If a double d election the PM she did call
By 11PM on countin night that seven to six would fall

And so on and so on …hopefully down to zero!

Comrade Paul [sarcasm but true] as you and I hold the view the other is wrong/lost/needs help, do you agree one of us is wrong?
Not such an easy question for one such as you.
Here is the real danger,a true unquestionable one.
Without SOME relationship with big business NO PARTY WILL EVER GOVERN.
See read fear my link in the Gina thread, then her dads politics history.
Greens could not do more harm to middle Australia if LIBERALS INVENTED THEM to do the job.
Poirot, yes Labor is at an all time low.
Gillard is its name!
Those who put the knife in her hand, are afraid and unwilling to return my party to its rank and file.
Australia waits to tell Abbott enough!
But is unwilling to reward Mrs Mac the knife!
A vote for the dieing greens is inflicting very long term Liberal government on us all.
Last, tell me I am wrong, 88% of Australians do not want the greens.

There is nothing undemocratic about the Upper House. There may well be better options for a voting system to elect it. It is not controlled by the Greens or Shooters. In the NSW Parliament and in the Federal one, it so happens that Labor plus minor parties combined would make up the majority of MPs elected there by voters. Liberal/ Nationals plus minor parties would also make up the majorities there. By far the greatest control rests with the Liberal and Labor party MPs. Any time they vote together on what is good for NSW, they will get it through. Either something is good for our state or country or bad for it. On 80% of policy Liberal/Nationals & Labor could agree and pass it. That they don't, indicates that it is not necessarily what is good for the people, state or country that interests politicians. Voters themselves can make a huge difference to what is done if they campaign to influence all MPs, forgetting party prejudices.We have much more power than the minor parties. We just don't use it!

I a member of the ALP find it hard to agree Voterland.
Recently shooters party combined with Lib/Nats to sell NSW power.
Not for the benefit of NSW.
But in return for a deal I see as against the interests of NSW.
Shooting in national parks.
We have seen a man camping in such a park have his dog shot, two deaths by shooting.
And few would even be aware the Ferrel animals are subject to National parks workers safely shooting now.
For minor, some times single member party's,to be able to gain such actions for selling any pretense at fair balanced action sickens me.
Greens are wastrels.
The power their 12% give them is unused, it in effect has only one impact.
It leaves unresolved issues to be handled by Conservatives with no other inputs.

"Comrade Paul [sarcasm but true] as you and I hold the view the other is wrong/lost/needs help, do you agree one of us is wrong?"
Belly, It is not a question of right and wrong, it is a question of obtaining the perceived best outcome for the greater good. Trying to reduce the political argument down to simplistic terms of right and wrong is not possible.
"Without SOME relationship with big business NO PARTY WILL EVER GOVERN"
This is an example of where you and I politically diverge. Do not forget the ALP is not one homogenous party, but rather a formalised party of factions, as we are both well aware. Your opinions appear to be very much orientated towards the dominant right faction, which in essence is the conservative faction within the party, as opposed to the radical left faction. Your faction embraces the philosophy of 'power for powers sake', this philosophy in itself brings the danger of, although one is in power the overriding consideration is keeping in power, rather than achieving real change for the common good. Such a philosophy to me seems rather useless as nothing of real value is ever achieved. The adherents to this line of thinking justify with mumblings such as "reform from within." and other dribble, which is nothing more than a euphemism for "do nothing that will affect real change".
I do hope the day will come when Labor returns to its true principles and abandons the notion of populism to gain power for powers sake, which you can see from your parties present circumstance the outcome may not be that good, if the 'man' so desires you will be out of power just as quickly as if you never embraced populism in the first place.

"I do hope the day will come when Labor returns to its true principles and abandons the notion of populism to gain power for powers sake"

According to the polls that day is here, Paul1405.

I hope the Greens enjoy their last year in having a say in public policy as thereafter they will have none. The events of the last fortnight has demonstrated they have no sensible role to play in Australian politics. I hope you're sleeping soundly with your ideals intact, but I doubt you're lying straight while you do.

Luciferase,

Talking of the inability to lie straight in bed...Hello?....politics is not a forum of morality.

Honestly, let's not play pretendies. When the best a nation of nearly twenty three million people can throw up is a government led by the likes of Gillard and an alternative led by the likes of Abbott - both dancing to the populist tune in pursuit of power - I wouldn't be splitting hairs on ethics.

Poirot, if Gillard is so populist why the NBN, CT, MRRT, NDPS, etc, etc? These are killing her in the polls, as is the unresolved boats issue.

Or, is it all just about her voice, fat bum and hair-do?

I hope the populists in the party don't manage to get Rudd in to dismantle reform policies and that the egg is so scrambled that MM can't unscramble it should he get in.

I look forward with relish to the decimation of the juvenile Greens party and its pious, unctuous self-righteousness while 4% of boat people don't make it.

...sorry, missed something, voice,nose,bum & ranga hairdo

Yes I agree Labor has achieved your wish Paul, AND is not finished its down would slide until it actually considers reform, post Gillard and her lead weight mates.
How ever you are just leg pulling are you not.
Not even the greens can think what voters think does not matter?
Maybe wrong! Labor does!
Gillard is well to have an interest in schools and education.
Her school Marm bitter style is known in such areas.
She, in a channel seven news take was shown to once believe in turning the boats around.
She would lovingly throw her arms around any position to improve hers.
Recent headline show, at last! both majors saying they must distance them selves from Greens, ripper! to use an old term to express joy.
And Australia awaits Labor dumping Gillard to bring ten percentage points back to us.
A side effect? Abbott will follow Gillard.

Yes Belly, I see the NSW ALP secretary is now advocating putting the greens last on HTVs, as is Victoria in a coming by-election.

Yep and I did notice another lie by Gillard about turning the boats around. She was for it, now agin it.

Has anyone else noticed how the greens use the populist notion of enviromental issues to gain power, when really they want their socialist agenda. They talk about other parties being populist but they have been riding on a green popular thing for years. Have we not seen them, in Koala suits, collecting money and indoctrinating school kids about save the trees and save the whales. They never mention their socialist policies, like legalizing drugs, lowering the age of consent or dismantling our defence forces. They only have got their present positions from Labor preferences.

That could be changing

Banjo another one of your wrong comments:
"Have we not seen them (Greens), in Koala suits, collecting money"
If you stopped and asked you would find the person in the 'koala suit' is from the Wilderness Society a registered charity.
Belly may remember one of his boys ran for a fringe group Peter Garrett for the Nuclear Disarmament Party as a senate candidate in NSW.

Belly said "at last! both majors saying they must distance them selves from Greens, ripper! to use an old term to express joy."
Banjo said "Yes Belly, I see the NSW ALP secretary is now advocating putting the greens last on HTVs,"

A note on the 2010 Federal election
"out of the 72 seats Labor won, 48 of those were reliant on Greens preferences for victory." A tight preference swap in key marginal seats was the reason Labor got back into office. Labor is well aware that without a tight swap of preferences in key marginals they are history. With an open Green HTV the distribution of preferences moves 2% to the Liberals in key marginals enough to win them the seat.
I ask who needs who the most?

Through each election cycle I get 5 chances to cast a vote over who gets to hold power over my life.

Once at a Council level, twice at a State level, and twice at a Federal level.

I have on many occasion voted for a different party in the upper house compared to who got my vote in the lower. Many of my fellow Australians do just that. Many will also vote for a different party federally than the one they supported at a State level.

I am of the mind that Australian voters as an aggregate get it right nearly all the time. In fact I can't really think of an election in the last thirty years that with hindsight can be said to have been the wrong call.

Some of the posters here want to strip a tier of government away and thus deny me and other Australians 2/5ths of our voting power. Usually this push comes from rusted on voters who have the temerity to think they are supporters of democracy.

Well, it ain't going to happen without a fight.

Yes to every word Banjo,Paul understand I am extremely glad the tide has turned.
For your leader to claim to be the party of mainstream Australia, is both a bigger lie than Abbott ever told and funny.
But the emergence of BOTH majors growing determination to sideline the radical greens strengthens my case here.
As Wilkie sit in the house on Labor/Liberal preferences.
And the single lower house green on Liberal ones.
May I ask how many truly understood, in the end, they voted green/independent?
Our system stinks.
Labor has put its enemy DLP- in Victoria's upper house.
Liberals a green in the lower.
Now? we are forced to put family first, good name , awful policy's, to stop the waste,votes ending up in greens do nothing hands.
Sick of independents? Greens? are you AS concerned with FF as I am?
Vote for your lower house first pick, if no other way to isolate the above exists?
Preference your other major!
3 elections and the minors are gone.
But the table cloth senate?
How do we avoid voting for the crumbs? take your time, NEVER FOLLOW a party HTV that asks you to put an idiot in the upper house, better still write and demand we get rid of the rat hole upper houses.

Belly, you claim to 'love the Labor Party' yet continually post like a blind conservative. I must question if you are not a wolf in sheep's clothing. You direct all your vitriol at the Greens, with your latest load of rubbish being conservatives lets form a pact and get rid of any dissenting voices. Give the people a 'choice' between Conservative Party A led by Tweedle Dum and Conservative Party B led by Tweedle Even Dumer.
Get in touch with the political reality in Australian politics refer to my post about preferencing in key marginal seats. Come next election Labor will again be begging for Green preferences in key seats, offering senate preferences in return. You have this idea that 100% of Green voters preference Labor. I hate to shatter your delusion its not the case my old salt, with preferences directed to Labor its usually around 80% with an open ticket its drops to around 76-78% and with a Liberal preference it can be as low as 70%

Paul 1405 it mate is you, not me who must try to make contact with the real word.
The Labor right, in my view is right.
Post our Socialist left days, long gone,it was my faction, Center Unity, ALP right, that made election victory possible.
We did not put rings in the nose of voters, they forced us to wake up.
Labor is and always will be the party of Social Justice, and achievable change.
Your lost ex ALP very far left radicals call for the past, a past that never worked and never won over the voters.
I am truly full of joy! to see my predictions coming true,both sides saying target the do nothing good greens.
I need say not one word, you two leaders on TV, one quite good looking but not much else to say in her favor, the leader? best not, are doing it for me.
I look for todays mums and dads 30 year olds to one day take the ALP in to new places, yes if Liberals insist on being Conservatives their ground too.
As the world takes on its growing problems, population pollution all types, an answer to when growth has to stop, it will need steady mainstream hands to fix.
Paul you can duck and weave but not escape Greens are on the nose for most.
You would be hurt, deeply to see next Sunday week your stall for upcoming council election subject to avoidance at any costs or very rude remarks from ? ordinary Australians.
Your party in last NSW election said it would not direct its preferences to LABOR did you cry then?
Not carry greens is as good as it gets for me.

After demonstrating its incapacity to make any reasonable contribution to the refugee issue, it's time to excise the Green scum. They show no desire to team with the Labor party which must now put forward its own "green" policies more thoughtfully and forcefully to pries the left vote away from radical usurpers.

No deal with the Greens. Short term pain, long term gain.

Enjoy your time left in the sun, Paul1405.

Very true as always.
But I think Labor has the runs on the board already in protecting the environment.
Bob Carr has been dragged in the mud then back again, for declaring more National parks in NSW than one government ever did.
Now reality has moved in, to push the underlining truth, ALP must confront the greens.
We are seeing the beginning of the end for greens.
Had they even understood, clearly they do not, politics and the lever and fulcrum effect they would have talked on boat people.
They could have taken say 3.000 now from both Indonesia and Malaya, for letting Labors bill pass.
They in effect and knowingly, did further harm to Labor.
And seem to say we would rather Abbott get his way than Labor.
A bunch of noddy's who have had their day? yes and that is fine by me.

Ho hum, talk about being out of touch. You guys are from cloud cuckoo land. You are obviously not politically active as you have no idea of what goes on in the real political world. You failed to answer the preference question. Belly of the 72 seats Labor hold in the federal parliament 48 were won on Green preferences. Like NSW and Queensland Labor, Federal Labor is heading for a political disaster, again blaming everyone else except them self. Like in the NSW election conservative labor voters will desert on mass, the ALP primary vote will drop 10 points, it will all flow to the Liberals. The Greens will hold their vote at around 12%. Labor will lose at least 30 seats, and your talking about "lets get the Greens", okay Nero keep fiddling while Rome burns.

Labor, to this point, have not openly disparaged the Greens leaving a perception in the public mind that the Greens party is just the left wing of Labor. Greens radicalism has clearly led to a negative outcome for Labor, which must now review its policies and arrangements so it can go to the next election openly seeking a ruling majority, just as the coalition will.

Many Greens are disgusted with their own party over the refugee issue and will return to Labor. If Greens give even a hint that they'll play politics with the coalition, that will work further in Labor's favour.

The Greens have ensured that Labor has no other choice but to follow this path. Milne is an intransigent dope and her party will be sidelined by the electorate as a result. Lemmings.

"Many Greens are disgusted with their own party over the refugee issue and will return to Labor" Get this from your crystal ball Luciferase.
Get real the Greens only have 3 senators up for re-election next time 1 each in Tas, WA and SA. We will retain Tas and most likely SA lose WA to the coalition but have a good chance in Vic and NSW to take 1 of Labor where they have 3 up as do the coalition who would need 57.1% to get 4 up. The coalition can realistically think they can win 3 extra senate seats 2 from Labor 1 in Tas and 1 in Qld and 1 from the Greens in WA. i can see the senate after next time being Coalition 37 Labor 27 Greens 10 Ind 1 DLP 1. The big senate winner might be Nick Xenophon. My crystal ball.

I'll concede Tasmania. Deliverance country treads its own self-interested, blood-sucking path. The sooner it becomes a part of New Zealand the better.

The Greens have shown what a self-serving mob they are. While they remain babes in the political woods their innocence is now lost along with any latitude they had to be irresponsible. Real human blood is now on their hands.

Greens will be marooned by electors returning to Labor. Cling to your dreams Paul1405

Paul no one is truly blind until he/she refuses to see.
You hurl slanders at us but it is you who appear not to be in touch or informed.
Tasmania is is proof Labor/Greens together brings terrible results, I to would gladly give the state to NZ just to restore good government.
My thread started before both majors finally opened their eyes.
No better evidence for getting rid of upper houses and preferential voting ever existed.
FAMILY FIRST! bigoted fools hiding behind a name, not unlike the greens, are to get preferences NO PARTY WANTS TO GIVE THEM.
To assist in fighting the radical greens,800 dead at sea,greens alone have not moved will not move are you content to sponsor those deaths?
For get the Liberal/conservatives, your mad party has the power to circumvent them.
But from 12% want ONLY TOTAL CONTROL!
RIP Greens? NO!good riddance!
But Australia will be a fa better country without the loony left in charge.

"To assist in fighting the radical greens,800 dead at sea,greens alone have not moved will not move are you content to sponsor those deaths?"

Come off it, stop trying to blame the Greens for Labors and the Coalitions intransigent attitude to asylum seekers. Both the Labor bimbo and the coalitions mad monk, claim "off shore processing is the way to go." With their interest in political point scoring both refused to compromise with each other. Both parties in government, with their bind allegiance to US militarism in Afghanistan and Iraq have been partly responsible for helping create a refugee problem. You have the audacity to want to blame the Greens, now willing to use the deaths of poor men, women and children to score cheap political points. Wake up fella these peoples lives are worth a lot more than that. I am not proud that our politicians could not see past the ends of their noses, Green ones included, and come up with a humanitarian solution. ALL Australians are to blame for this human tragedy.

@ Paul 1405,

<<ALL Australians are to blame for this human tragedy.>>

Total nonsense .

It has little to do with US militarism/ involvement and lots & lots & lots to do with the knowledge that it is easy to con your way into OZ.

"Australia gives citizenship if you have a good story…They will know you are lying, but as long as you say the same thing whatever they ask you, you will be fine."
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/18/afghanistan-people-smugglers-taliban-europe

If any one group is to blame in this country, it’s the refugee industry (of the which the Green’s form one of the central pillars), who at every turn have done all they could to frustrate immigration controls.

ALL Green's are to blame for this human tragedy-- and ALL Green's will be responsible for a host of other tragedies/problems that will occur in OZ society over the coming years as a result of poorly controlled immigration.

Labor and the coalition say "off shore processing is the way to go." Yep, that's what both major parties representing the vast majority of Australians want, Paul1405, and it's what the country needs. Greens position on this will only hold until the next election, which they are paving the coalition's path towards winning. That the Greens choose not to do something about stopping the 4% mortality rate AND stopping the coalition policy of forcing boats back being border protection policy in a year's time is inexplicably stupid. They should accept the constraints they have to work within and achieve the best outcome, which obviously is not their ideal outcome, but who's got that luxury in this affair?

For all their posturing on the asylum seeker issue I fail to see where Labor or the Coalition have moved an inch. They both come out with plenty of platitudes and political point scoring but fail to address the issue with any form of humanitarian sincerity. As Labor are the government of the day I would think people would expect the Coalition to support Labor policy on a bipartisan bases for the good of all as they share common ground on 'offshore processing'.

"I would think people would expect the Coalition to support Labor policy on a bipartisan bases for the good of all as they share common ground on 'offshore processing"

Paul1405, surely you don't blame the coalition, they'd only be culpable if they gave a damn about refugees. Can't you see the wood for the trees, oh babe in the woods?

@Paul

Come on, Paul. It was the Greens & the ALP who vowed to love, honor and cherish each other in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, for better for worse, and forsaking all others, be faithful to each other for as long as they both should cling (to power)--remember?

Surely you haven’t forget all that. Let me jog your memory with some of the happy snaps. Just look at Wayne & Adam looking on like proud parents of the newly weds:
http://tinyurl.com/7ekuzeq

And then there was this joyous moment:
http://tinyurl.com/7nccuve

Since that time we have all gotten a lot poorer (and are likely to get a darn side more poorer when some of happy couples policies start to sting. And suddenly the Green’s want to renege! What a pack of philandering, peacocks the Green’s are!

@Luciferase
<<the coalition, they'd only be culpable if they gave a damn about refugees>>
Please do not confuse real refugee with the mob that have been landing on our shores. They are too entirely different/distinct classes.

Lucerferase,
Don't you think that after 800 deaths and thousands of illegal arrivals it would dawn on Labor that they made a mistake and revert to the previous policy.

But then Labor does not care about the deaths or what it is costing us, it is just politics. Worse than mere incompedence.

Luciferas I admire your thinking and stance, you will be targeted by Banjo , who is a mate,and others who are not.
See they are right, Labor got it wrong, very much so, in saying that know, only Labor is truly trying to fix it, you do too of course.
We came up with a working model they say no.
We offered them their solution they said no.
Weighted down by Gillard, the wrong leader the wrong woman an anchor, we can not sell TRUTH.
Liberals Weighed down by their Muppet leader says we will do nothing!
Why fix it! it helps us win the polls Muppet Tony in truth is not capable of coming up with a solution.
Gillard just the wrong leader.
Now Paul! extraordinary stuff 12% 12 in every 100 support the madness known as the greens.
Morris Dancers of the Forrest,and he like his foolish leader claims the majority support them?Both sides should clean out all upper houses,they exist now for minority's to over rule the majority.
Have one house vote for you team no preferences.
Democracy should support the wishes of most not radicals.
Greens, not one bit different than Abbott trade in deaths, to use those deaths to win a battle in politics, both are acting in less than human ways.
Greens end result? incoming Abbott government will have total control over every issue after his DD election one that sees the greens very near death never to be returned from results.
That single event will be a good out come.

The posts on this issue have little to do with the virtues of having upper houses. And they overlook the pernicious effect of the winner-takes-all regimen of the Westminster system. This allows the present government with the support of half the voters to control the government while the other crowd with the support of half the voters, is left to play political games.

Because gaining an extra vote by either side of our political spectrum may be crucial to their having all the power or none, each side will spend all the money they can get to achieve a majority. In turn this gives immense power to people with money and influence, allowing them to control the governments we get.

In summary, the Westminster system is obsolete, its original purpose of avoiding civil war in the eighteenth century having been achieved. There are better models of governance that are inclusive rather than adversarial. We should aim for that sort of reform. Tony

"Please do not confuse real refugee with the mob that have been landing on our shores. They are too entirely different/distinct classes."
Yeah, SPQR, and it's amazing how your mob is able to instantly "process" them on the high sea, clarify the "confusion", then rightly force their unsafe boats back out to sea. More efficient than both onshore and offshore processing, eh?

Third try, welcome Tony.
As the thread starter I want to say yes to some thing better than the Westminster system.
But is it your view currently this country's upper houses are Democratic.
Is the balance of power, a power in its self, good?
Is it good that more people will drown trying to get here?
Is it ok that two individuals in NSW shooters party combined to sell NSW power clearly against the wishes of most.
Are you sure this thread is not talking about the real issue.
Power transfered to smaller party's,even individuals, because our system demands we vote more than once, and for some we truly do not wish to vote for?
Are you pushing for a continuation of lost soles such as the greens ruling because the system is broke?
It will remain my view every ones views should be heard.
But too that they should have equal value.

Will Labor never learn. A couple of Labor mugs in the form of NSW Party secretary Sam Dastyari and chief government whip Joel Fitzgibbon are running the "put The Greens last" campaign. Naturally, these closet conservatives are part of the Labor right the mob who abandoned Labor principles years ago, assuming they had principles in the first place. These blokes have as much political savvy as Bozo the Clown. Check out the wonderful job they done for NSW Labor at the last state election. What's their motive see if they can do a 'better' job on federal Labor than they done else where and put Abbott in control with a bigger majority than O'Farrell has in NSW.

Paul you need to touch base with reality.
This morning headline story is[even bigger head lines than evidence Australia no longer hears Gillard , and Labor no longer hears its members] is the Labor left has joined in.
My dislike of the greens is not based on Labors needs.
I think of Australia.
Hans-Christian- Anderson could not have put together such a fairy tale as your party's policy's.
In my view, my description of naked Morris Dancers deep in the Forrest lets some of them of lightly.
That goose from Marickville council!
It is time!
So very many uninterested voters see only the false front that is the greens.
Uninterested in truth they waste votes fleeing to the lost waste lands of radical policy's and dreams turning to night mares.
As greens try to rule on 12% of the votes deaths come supported by a party wanting to be a Dictatorship.
I think my views on upper houses are well proved now the debate has been highlighted.
And why should any vote have more than one value?

Belly, I would never expect you to vote for progressive ideas, as a rabid conservative you are comfortable holding your reactionary views.
You support the NSW right of the ALP, the home of the corrupt and the abode of the criminal, wallowing in sleaze.
A bit of the latest news from Labor in NSW:

"DISGRACED former state (Labor) MP Karyn Paluzzano faces time in jail after admitting she rorted entitlements and gave false evidence during the ICAC inquiry that led to a crushing by-election defeat. She will be sentenced by Magistrate Julie Huber on August 9."

She can keep busy in jail shacking hands with old Labor cronies, there are plenty of them in there, just keep a cell vacant for Craig Thomson. I'll answer that question you never would,
LONG BAY JAIL IS NSW LARGEST BRANCH OF THE LABOR PARTY LOL.

You might call her a goose, but I'm proud to count Marrickville Councillor Fiona Byrne as a friend of mine.
Tell me Belly is Karyn Paluzzano a friend of yours? She sure fits the model for a Labor politician. How is Milton? Still playing with the boys?

@ Luciferase,

<<Yeah, SPQR, and it's amazing how your mob is able to instantly "process" them on the high sea>>

A couple of pertinent points:

I consider “my mob” to be the Australian electorate-- it's a pity you didn't similarly identify!

I’m not one of the its-my-part-right-or-wrong crew. I'm neither a member of the Liberals or Labor.

As I said before we can do much by simply tightening our processes—we keep hearing and seeing how flawed they are again:
<<“Australia gives citizenship if you have a good story… They will know you are lying, but as long as you say the same thing whatever they ask you, you will be fine.">>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/18/afghanistan-people-smugglers-taliban-europe

and again
<<“Australia gives citizenship if you have a good story… They will know you are lying, but as long as you say the same thing whatever they ask you, you will be fine.">>

and again
<<“Australia gives citizenship if you have a good story… They will know you are lying, but as long as you say the same thing whatever they ask you, you will be fine.">>

But those in power keep side stepping and want to create more and more committees of Yes-Minister appointees to look at “regional solutions” etc.

"I’m not one of the its-my-part-right-or-wrong crew. I'm neither a member of the Liberals or Labor."
SPQR From your posts I thought you were a member of The Australia First Party. Your views certainly fit in with theirs

Paul yes you are stung! and angry, but your insults bounce off like rice at a wedding.
My post history includes thousands of words insulting the very faction I live for.
Reminding the right of its betrayal of me, and its rank and file.
I would deep fry half of them, that woman with them.
But I rejoice! in the new life of center unity, it took guts to come out against the black mailing greens.
Say as you will greens own the dead boat people 800 of them.
How many more? to prop up brain dead women who them selves by their actions kill their own party your lost and useless greens.
If you want such politics be brave!~
Name them as they are!
Combined Socialist left overs party of the last 50 years

[SMS Message for Paul1405]

@Paul1405
TX 4 YR HLP
$10M 2011/12
O all 2 U

anthr on C
ETA 8AM Mon.

cu l8r k?
;)
Cpt Emad

TRANSLATION

Hi Paul,

Thanks for all your help.
We made $10,000,000 profit last year.
We owe it all to you and the other Green’s.

Another shipload on the way.
Estimated time of rendezvous with the HMAS taxi service 8 AM.
See you later OK?

Captain Emad

Thanks for the link, SPQR. Interesting to get something on it from horses mouths. However, what is right and wrong to do on the high seas does not change, IMO.

Just thinking aloud, perhaps we need to look at maintaining our involvement in Afghanistan and equipping the Hazara's until they can look out for themselves, however long that takes. That way we continue to oppose Taliban terrorism and do something towards the Hazara refugee issue. Both these outcomes should be helped along by the UN, IMO.

Meanwhile, offshore processing serves as a deterrent to attempting to usurp the rights of other ethnic minority refugees in UN camps around the world to be resettled in Australia.

We must significantly raise the number of refugees we resettle here.

Dear SPQR,

Good story but pure fantasy my friend, the facts speak for themselves. A bloke busting his arse collecting shopping trolleys is not part of any enterprise making $10,000,000 profit.

Your link showed us what exactly? Is the probable return of the Taliban to a position of power enough to push an educated Afghan Hazara to flee his country? Of course! Is paying for forged papers a reasonable part of that journey? Again of course! Just because Howard stopped the boats to a degree didn't mean the 'refugee problem' had disappeared.

Dear Paul1405,

The Greens have certainly displayed a consistent stand on the issue of refugees but with the balance of power there comes certain responsibilities. In this instance they had a chance to show some degree of maturity and acknowledge that responsibility, instead their principle has morphed into a pathology that will cost lives. As someone who has been supportive of the Greens in the past when voting for the upper house I will be far more circumspect this time around.

Headlines are saying Labor right but the truth is it is solidly every side in the ALP.
Hurting at greens support for Abbott, that clearly is what they have done, Australia is no longer slumbering.
Most knew the day would come the first day in the decline of this party.
Post Bob Brown two militant women have bought the roof down on their own heads.
More boats more deaths on the way.
Who other than greens/Liberals to blame?
And as the greens claim to care more how can they not move to save lives?

Dear CSteele,

LOL

WOW you are still talking to me? (I’ll have to cut and paste this to my e-diary)

Actually… I had you in the cross-hairs of my drone scope the last time you wrote that little quip about poor hard working Capt Emad …and my trigger finger was itching to fire a few hellfire missiles into your bunker , but disciple of delayed gratification as I am , I pulled out.

Hey, listen, if you buy all that guff about Capt Emad being a hard working trolley pusher I’ve got another chappy who will knock you off your feet.I met him on the corner of King & George in Sydney. He was selling tickets in a raffle for the title deed to the Sydney Harbour Bridge.Didn't get time to say too much to him ‘cause a horde of strange people wearing “I support the Green’s” & “Christine Milne for PM” elbowed me aside. But he did howler something about having another raffle next week for the title deed of the Opera House …

If you’re interested I can see if he’s still hanging out there --what do you say, ay

Dear SPQR,

Not sure why I wouldn't talk to you. I generally only refrain when I feel it would be injurious to another poster's health or if they if they refuse to apologize for posting blatantly false material.

I'm happy to hold up evidence of the 'Captain' collecting shopping trolleys over your assertion he made $10,000,000 profit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ljgPgzDnQk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

As to your hellfire missiles let rip my friend. All bunkered down here.

Belly, You tell me what a great Labor stalwart you are, a true believer no less. But every time I throw a Labor name at you, you tell me how much you hate em' KKK, Craig Thomson, The Bimbo, Ronald McDonald, Ms Paluzzano, Rex Jackson, Ken of Kensington, Anna Blight, the grub, the list goes on and on. Don't even like Milton, Are you sure your not sitting in a One Nation meeting dreaming your in the Labor Party, quite understandable there is not much difference these days. What do you think of Labor's Comrade Dougie,the bloke who goes around calling everyone comrade, must think he's a Soviet Commissar or something, calling everyone comrade, unfortunately he's got the wrong accent.

Paul 1405 unlike your self my Friend I do not run away from my party because it some times fails me, and its members.
I require far better than the ALP who for a time, fell in to the arms of such as the greens.
Much more than those who hide child molesters, yes we have both.
I am sickened by the rich who got every cent from being able to miss use my party.
I rebel!forever! at power brokers who not even bothering to tell us why! knifed Rudd and put Gillard in control, turned us in to the TITANIC!
But Paul I love the ALP we will be, once the thought Bob the silver bodgy is all we need to rebuild a party kicked to near death by men I held/hold great hope for.
The battle confronting non conservatives is huge,Labor must replace Gillard and will, we must trample on your party,we will.
As this next 100 years confronting us has many Gina's many Rupert's many rich and influence owners to confront.
We need an anchor in reality.
We need to deliver to voters what they want.
Not as you two women leadership want, to push folk in to thinking they are voting for the environment, then drown 800 people to prove they are in control.
My dreams for my party, its future are achievable.
You are floating on a very wet leaf, hoping for the imposable.
Brother, I have no comrades, get on board we do not drown refugees.

Dear CSteele,

<<I'm happy to hold up evidence of the 'Captain' collecting shopping trolleys over your assertion he made $10,000,000 profit>>

So, you see a youtube clip of a man pushing a trolley and he’s a *confirmed* professional trolley pusher!
Yep, I can well understand why you lean the way you do.

People who bought the “I’m only a poor trolley pusher” alibi also bought this youtube story :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ifhOgriECY&feature=relmfu

“Capt Emad” is a metaphor for the hundreds of people smugglers past and present who have operated with impunity within OZ jurisdictions.

Belly,

The Labor Party is the natural home of the criminal and the devious political shyster, which has always been the case, which has been well documented, that has been the norm within the Labor Party as long as I can recall, and that is a good 40 years.
You pray for reform, something that will never come, simply a fantasy on your part.
Take the recent resignation of Keneally from the seat of Heffron. After the disaster inflicted on Labor at the last state election and all the platitudes about party reform, you would think the up coming by-election would be a golden opportunity for Labor to bring in some new blood. No, who does the right preselect for the seat one of theirs, a 60 year Councillor from Botany, no doubt payment for past services.
Is this party reform to you, Belly?

Dear SPQR,

Here I am waiting for a Hellfire and the best you have is Capt Emad is a metaphor?

Really?

That my friend is a spitball rather than a missile. Not sure it was worth the effort.

Paul in the university of life we learn certain things.
I have, you need to.
My total dislike of the greens is not a view I held from their birth, I am a slow learner.
I am you know, wanted better from them, thought maybe they are Labors Democrats, *Keeping the sons of unwed parents honest*
It was not to be, NSW for a while showed that Labor group had got on the grog, the fund raising merry go round and influence selling, as all party's do in this state.
Your mob came along vacuuming up our refugees
But may be you over look just how very much your team has fallen, failure to use the power has killed them.
Put every Labor wrong, every failure in your team and sink the lot.
Nasty? well maybe, but not heated just the thought of well over half this country's voters , has been for ten years.
So as your boat sinks throw those stones but know mine will be floating after the last bubble comes to the surface.

Paul 1405 just returned to tell you this.
I was not being deliberately rude to you or your party.
I truly think they are dead, and that those like Lee Rianon Killed it.
And to that is a good out come for Australia.
My heart drives my head, but reality has its roll too.
Last sitting of Parliament, could and should, have given non Conservative Australians a victory.
It too could have stopped the boats,saved waking one morning to the horrible news people including kids had died at sea.
But your arm twisting Lady's said NO, let Abbott take the spotlight to Labor getting it very wrong, we did.
We know you and I Abbott is stopping a solution, even refusing to be part of an inquiry , yet a day will come, as your party crumbles around you, you too will see you sided with him.
Ignoring the dead the future dead trading on those dead to lift your party's profile only to kill that party.
Remember it is not me, not Belly alone but at last Australia!
That is sickened by the belief dead boat people do not matter as much as your dieing party.

Belly, you never answer a direct question re Heffron by-election question. You just rave on with some senseless diatribe of how much you hate the Greens. It's impossible to have a rational debate with you. Your posts are full of 'mumbo jumbo'. Another direct question. Who in the Labor party do you consider is doing a good job, and why? Please do not reply, assuming you will reply, with another tirade aimed at the Greens. I've well and truly got your "I hate the Greens" message.

Dear CSteele,

<<That my friend is a spitball rather than a missile>>

But, that’s all it took to deflate you --One doesn’t have to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut!

Yes I started this thread to talk about the power some times given to single members or minor party's.
See I am, ask Paul, a bigot!
I want elected government given the right to govern.
I highlighted my state, kicked to death by its self interested and yes criminals.
The NSW ALP did not get rolled,they got deep fry-ed! rightly so, we are lead by good and honest again.
But the state? rabbits in the upper house hold sway,my mob,yes true, use them too.
But a bloke who won a landslide [not doing much with it] has to beg to get his bills past.
What are the greens?
Was it ever the intention OF MOST Australians they rule?
Poor Paul! dreaming still of comrades past red flags flying, workers enslaved by the state not bosses.
Hoping Australians who see his dreams as a nightmare will? fall at the feet of such a foolish mob!
IF ONLY if only I would go away, stop using words that four fifths of our country do stop telling the truth.
Greens supported Tony Abbott!
Stop warning of deaths at sea,
Paul it will never happen.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/latest/14206872/creans-tells-mp-to-talk-to-real-people/
The link is from Simple Simon.
Simon Crean to you, he is a bloke many still avoid one I ducked and weaved to avoid at Goulburn Country conference of the ALP, at the time he was leader, not much of one.
I could have scoured three trys that day, got away never heard his speech and won near a hundred on the pokies while he waffled on.
He was clapped when he finished,wounder still why? was it the fact he was no longer talking?
Latham Crean Gillard
a troika, three who had knife big Kim the party in Lathams case, nearly, well no true of Gillard too.
Rudd, has more appeal than these three slugs yet we see from within the party most infected with green rot a plea leave them alone?
A fear from this bloke maybe to not be brave, not put country and party first?

Belly, Do I add Simple Simon to the list of Labor notables you do not like. Add Big Kim too, Surely you don't like Latham, no one likes Mark Latham, Mark Latham doesn't even like Mark Latham. Don't tell me you like Kevie 07, he tried to knife The Bimbo. Then again is it not an honour in the Labor Party to get knifed. If you don't get knifed you might start to feel your wanted, and no one in the ALP wants to be wanted. As a replacement for knighthoods the ALP could instigate a new honour system and bestow KNIFEHOODS (my word). do you like that ex labor king maker now a Murdoch lackey, mind you a well paid lackey is Richo.

Did they hold that Labor conference inside, or out side, Goulburn Supa Max Jail. I do hope it was held inside so Milton and all the other Labor notables doing time could attend.

Paul nice effort, your changing the subject, diverting the conversation, much like a Blue Cattle dog.
They tend to change point of attack if they are not winning a fight.
Proud! that is what I am of not being afraid to speak out against the wrong in my party.
You are as unlikely EVER do that as Shadow Ministers is.
SOLIDARITY! a word dragged fourth from a filthy pit, that is used not for the good of a party.
But to hide its failures.
You can target me, or the problem.
You have watched my contempt grow, from handing out your HTV in 2007, to total distrust and dislike now.
You seem unable to see Australia came with me on that journey.
You stand by that mob of vandals in Marickville council, who want to bar a Jewish Chocolate shop!
Nazi ACTIONS! from an extremist Australian Greens cell.
If I was you, and thankfully I am not.
And its too late and will not work.
I would petition the Greens membership,asking for change in leadership and policy's including boat people.
To avoid the death ,yes impending and now unavoidable death, of your party.
You however continue to insult me and my party, it amuses you ok by me.
How about getting one of those Pôrto lues?
Make a great place for the 2016 AGM of greens.

The Labor Party in NSW has reportedly suspended three controversial members, including retiring Health Services Union (HSU) East branch general secretary Michael Williamson.
Former state energy minister Ian Macdonald and former Drummoyne MP Angela D'Amore, both of whom have been hauled before the state's corruption watchdog, have also had their memberships put on ice.

More blood letting in NSW. Belly, do you like any of these 3 Labor luminaries?

I'm struggling to find anyone in the Labor Party you actually like. On the other hand I like everyone in the Greens.

Very old news from Belly "You stand by that mob of vandals in Marickville council, who want to bar a Jewish Chocolate shop!
Nazi ACTIONS! from an extremist Australian Greens cell."

Tell me Belly, which you wont, Why did the LABOR PARTY members on Marickville Council at the time vote in support of the boycott. Are the ALP members on the council extremist as well? Please no more mumbo jumbo posts about cattle dogs and meat pies etc.

Good stuff Paul 1405, continue showing your pain at the grievous self inflicted pain of your party.
Continue too to insult me for targeting filth within my party.
While very much as do Conservatives, hiding those in yours.
12% of the total vote, that was your high water mark, face it, it is not me who condemned you lost tribe to the past.
They did that themselves.
MATE! had you shared mine, and Bob Browns concerns about your NSW branch, you would have been serving your party.

It shows how far to the extreme right some in the Labor Party have shifted. They are now prepared to preference Hitler types over a moderate progressive. Then again they may not have shifted at all. In fact Labor do endorse right wing ratbags, I met one ALP LC candidate at the last NSW election and his views were somewhere right of Genghis Khan. Fortunate in the ALP slaughter that ensued Atilla The Hun or one of his Labor mates failed miserably to win a seat in the LC, by the way Belly that final seat went to The Greens. To be fair, the other Labor bloke with him at the time, someone I know well, When I asked where did you get this Bozo, confided to me, from the 'Catholics' and wished he would P Off. I thought so with his letter from Pell he wanted to show me. I told him what he could do with his 'Pell Letter'.
At elections, I get on well with members of other parties, Labor, Liberal, Happy Clappers the lot, but not this fella.

I started the thread to express a view upper houses and preference vote is not democratic.
I understand, but disagree with, the reasons and thoughts of minor party voters.
I too understand some want room for new party's to form, and do not think my view stops that.
I think the greens are extremist and radicals.
I think as they found more Labor crumbs from our recent decay, they became more so.
And I think Australia is not a country wanting them in power, or any one like that.
The debate came mid thread, We never knew it would.
But I had wished for it from mid 2008.
I dream of my ALP continuing its journey to wards its future, believe totally it will arrive, rather it be sooner than later.
FUTURE? one not controlled alone by power brokers and Union heads,both movements suffer on that road.
Not taking that word,once so proudly used, SOLIDARITY to hide filth and wrong, such as NSW.
My party should always help those who need it,but not ever forget to help a hand up not a hand out works better.
We can never return to class warfare, our opponents never stop theirs.
We should counter Punch there not king hit.
Is it wrong to love my party, fear our current opponents enough to say what I think?
No.
But in Paul's words, you will see an inability to understand, his party has fallen on its owns word, lecturing us, middle Australia, because?
We are nothing like them!

Belly, I was sorry to hear that the majority of delegates couldn't make it to the ALP's NSW conference. Something about Barry wouldn't give them day release. please tell me how is Milton, Ian , Craig what's her name. Is it today Julia hands out the annual Rex Jackson memorial award at the conference. I think Michael Williamson got that one in the bag, but there will be plenty of stiff competition.
Well, well, well look who supports offshore processing for asylum seeker none other than the Labor leader in NEW Little Johnny Robo.
Is that Doug Cameron a commo. keeps calling everyone 'comrade'.
I'm sure I can detect some Russian in that accent of his.

Paul yet again you answer with bile and nastiness.
I will not need either to rebut you.
Robo is as honest as the day is long, a great campaigner he ran the anti WORK CHOICES bus around NSW.
He lead us in the anti power privatization campaign and he is a man of Merritt.
Your task is to ask why, from across all party's all factions your party is falling.
Why are the two women and part time politician Brant [sponsored by Liberal preferences] not hearing middle Australia.
Emptying the party pee pot on my head will change nothing.
For every green, surely even you will admit, two Belly's exist.
I will not preference you last.
Not if a Nazi stands.
I want every Australian voter to have the right to vote just once in both houses.
I too want next election, education to those same voters what happens in each house with preferences.
The table cloth senate ticket, let us preference our selves.
By marking across top line EG labor then preference liberal or Nats greens last!~
Vote for democracy.Bravely front the electorate , they are worth the trust not however again your lost tribe

Think it is time to close the old girl down.
I found it interesting, many thought I was a bit mad.
67 years of following politics as thoughtfully as my NRL it has some times left me wondering.
Party's inheriting the * Balance of power* include the DLP Democrats, did One Nation? early in the morning.
Greens, individuals? heaps of the from Labor traitors to Family First once Joe put an old fool in calling him Labor!
We let the term hung Parliament, give OUR POWER second place to some real fools, not one more so than our current Greens.
Is that what we wanted, are upper houses today what we thought they would be?
I have my doubts, I too doubt most voters understand preferential voting.
So at least, one day I hope my thoughts will be considered as reform looks to serve the most, not the least.
Upper houses could do worse, as a start, by letting the top section distribute our preferences.
Marking every square is madness!
Thanks see you in another thread.
Interesting times just around the corner.

whether or not we have an upper house is not the the real question. The real question is whether we can develop a party-free community involvement in the governing process which helps politicians to know and do what voters want

Voterland good morning.
Answer is clearly no never ever.
And too why would we think it would in any way be different than this THING we call hung Parliament.
In truth your question is unreeled to what most actually want.
We vote as we do to keep the other side out.
And given ten twenty or more other sides I see a nightmare of dealing things few want in your thought.