We only have to get rid of this federal government and it will be sweet!
Or will it.
Who are we proposing to elect.
See the Slipper story? hard to believe no matter what the mans sex practices are he has not been set up.
Not good, such a tactic if true from SOME in our next government.
Gina,Abbott's we will look after you mate Friend, worlds richest woman? trying to buy opinion!
Buy control of the ONLY BALANCED newspaper group in this county.
Yes it will be ok once we put just who? in power.
I look over my shoulder,unfortunately see a reasonable team.
But Gillard stands before them?
Are we prepared to live ruled by second or third best on both sides.
While true talent sits idle ?
Time please, shut the doors clean up the Pub, lets start fresh in the morning.
I tried waking up, but no its not a nightmare its real!

<<We only have to get rid of this federal government and it will be sweet!>>

Indeed, this will be perfectly sweet!!

<<Who are we proposing to elect.>>

Again? Are we such masochists that we want to get rid of this federal government only to get another?

- Nobody!

A reasonable team mate.

Just today we've had an environment minister idiot wanting to destroy our fishing industry, & a defense minister trying to destroy the defense force. How many more do you have like them in that reasonable team?

With idiots like these, 15 years in the wilderness would be a reasonable length of time out, to rebuild.

Thank god we've got someone as good ad Tony waiting to sort out the mess.

A reasonable team mate.

The wated billions on schools and The unworkable IR laws that have wrecked productivity, the former IR minister. Now holds the top job.

The insulation debacle, the former environment minister, still there, just has been sin binned.

The live export stuff up, minister still there.

Boat people stuff up, minister still there.

At the end of the day, the people won't be voting anyone in, as much as voting this lot out, which is a pity, as it's simply another race to the bottom.

I share your great concern Belly.

There is absolutely no one to vote for! Not Labor, Lib/Coalition, Greens, Katter’s mob….There’s nothing out there.

So once again I’ll be putting in a null vote.

BUT…

I reckon the answer is obvious. Labor needs to elevate Bob Carr and Kelvin Thomson to the top jobs and run on a platform of sustainability, with big reductions in immigration over successive years as one of the key factors.

The country desperately needs to get right away from the absurdity of never-ending expansionism, and Labor has got two excellent people to lead the way.

It’s not likely to happen before Abbott wins power. But they’ll be sitting pretty three years later after we’ve all become utterly disillusioned with a bumbling Lib government.

Labor is simply not going to win the next election. So they may as well start planning for the following one now.

I vote we fire them all and start again.

Ludwig,
I live in Cook & I'd like you to tell me what Labor has done for us apart from flooding us with excess public servants & money rotting consultants & the destruction of our society by amalgamation.
To make it easy for you just tell us one.

Belly:>>We only have to get rid of this federal government and it will be sweet!
Or will it?<<

God Belly you have a uninformed hide.
Or do you?

See tiger, we can all pose simplistic questions in a pseudo spin format.

The dog will go through the gate if you open it. Or will it?

Enough of this ideologue babble, some facts.

In 2008 the Aussie govt had a debt ratio against GDP of 9% not to mention 20 BILLION in the bank.

Now we have a govt debt against GDP of 23%. That figure is against a higher current GDP than we had in 2008.

I can’t tell you to grow up Belly because you sadly have grown and you still regurgitate input from your abundantly hopeless political commissars.

No offense tiger.

Ludwig>> I share your great concern Belly.<<

Luddy it seems you also share Belly's intelect.

Dear Belly,

Australia's real GDP has outpaced every other major
industrialised nation: Canada, New Zealand, the Euro
zone, the US, the UK, and Japan, as stated by the
Director of the Reserve Bank and other financial
experts. Our hosehold wealth is rising. Our
unemployment is low, and so is inflation.

She will be right mate?

Not if the Opposition gets into
Parliament. Sadly, the best they seem capable of
doing is telling us over and over again - what the
government is doing wrong whereas the facts are
very different.

Lexi>>Australia's real GDP has outpaced every other major
industrialised nation: Canada, New Zealand, the Euro
zone, the US, the UK, and Japan, as stated by the
Director of the Reserve Bank and other financial
experts. Our hosehold wealth is rising. Our
unemployment is low, and so is inflation.<<

Lexi in the early 80s the average Australian household had debts totaling around 40% of their disposal income, that is, income after tax. In December 1986 the ratio was 43% and just twenty years later in December 2006 the ratio has accelerated to 152%, an increase of 2.5 times and that is partly a manifistation of the banks allowing a three legged dog to have a credit card.

Your argument that GDP is soaring is not a feather in a Labor acolytes cap, it is a dagger in their heart.

Against GDP the Labor government has a debt ratio of 23%
When Rudd took over it was under 10%

Household savings have risen under the Labor government, but that is because everyone is now scared of the future. The plebs were not that scared under the sensible fiscal management of the Libs.

Lexi do not be an acolyte, facts are facts and spin is empty.

So Lexi, last time labor governed they lelf a huge black hole, well, it was huge back then and has only been dewaft by the even large hole they are digging, as we speak.

Sadly, they havnt finished yet.

So given the libs cleaned the mess up last time, left us with money in the bank and, the word 'under employment' hadn't yet been invented, I suspect you lot will expect them to do much the same again, but with what I ask.

The mining tax, designed to spread the wealth, is little more than a desperate back up plan to replace some of the billions wasted in the past four odd years.

In fact, so much of our 'go forward' relies on this unfair tax, that I can't imagine how we will survive without it, which is a disgrace, as this additional tax should have been surplus to be stowed away,rather than an antidote for labor's mismanagement.

Every labor voter has blood on their hands for allowing these fools to run a muck as they have.

rehctub as I gaze around at my fellow plebs I take into account that 27% of them would keep Labor. It is a scary thought especially considering the basket case our domestic economy has become and the $880 BILLION debt the Labor party has accrued in 5 short years. There is no doubt in my mind that the Labor party exists because of the post 1970's influx of non European migrants.

In the same way that the Europeans from the post WWII influx steered towards the Libs because of the socialist threat to Europe from the Ruskies, the vast majority of immigrants from the Middle East vote Labor because of the conceived threat of lesser welfare benefits and a tightening of family reunion laws. Australians who by definition are from an Anglo Saxon background also have a sub culture of welfare recipients who vote Labor because they believe the Libs will cut their stipend.

the facts are very different.
Lexi,
I have no doubt it may be so on your planet but here on Earth in Australia facts are different.
In fact they're so different that you wouldn't recognise the Australia from 5 years ago if it fell on top of us. All this courtesy of ALP. Don't kidd yourself that the Coalition will do worse, that's impossible.

<< …I'd like you to tell me what Labor has done for us.. >>

Indi, they’ve done SFA!

Where do you get the idea that I’m a Labor supporter??

I’m a supporter of sustainability-oriented politics, and whichever party can do that would win my support.

Labor needs to COMPLETELY change its act in order to move away from seeing continuous growth as the answer to everything and embrace a paradigm where at least the demand for everything is not constantly increasing.

Labor looks as though they could do this more easily than the Libs, for three reasons;

they are just completely failing with their current approach and are in desperate need a fundamental rethink,

they’ve got two very good people who have been vocal for a long time about the absurdity of high immigration and continuous rapid expansionism and

they would be implementing policies that would be the right policies for our future wellbeing and would gel with a large portion of the populace once they are seen to be genuine and well-organised.

I absolutely don’t support the current Labor government or Coalition opposition. Wow, I thought I’d made that abundantly clear, over and over on OLO.

<< Luddy it seems you also share Belly's intelect. >>

SOGGY, that’d be ‘intellect’.

But then anyone with a modicum of intellect would have known that!

Now, would you do us the honour of proffering some sort of explanation for this ‘unfriendly’ little statement. Thankyou.

Luddy certainly not unfriendly, a direct observation.

You said you share Belly’s concern. Belly is not new to you; you have corresponded on here for years. Belly’s primary concern is to see the Labor party in power regardless of track record or failed outcomes. His secondary concern which complements the first is to see the Liberals in opposition into perpetuity regardless of their track record for sound management and firm social expenditure policies.

You said that you would vote informal given you don’t see the Libs as having any redeeming features, hence you share Belly’s intellect because you cannot define a clear difference in the historic fiscal track record of the two parties. Your intellect and reasoning powers are on par with Bellys.

No offense meant, just an observation, some people think better than others Luddy, that’s all.

Sonofglion, ok thanks.
Thanks for the rude and crude insult.
It frees me to answer you, hopefully in a much more positive way.
Intellect,understanding, are just two words I have never associated with you.
I am, and will remain an ALP voter.
WHY? just now and again I as myself that question.
Right here and now I answer it, those on the other side frighten me more.
Close run race, very close,but still!
Gillard her installation,her continued holding a position she should not have.
Thomson affair, death of the JOY Kevin 07 bought.
NSW Labor, SUSSEX STREET MAGGOTS, QLD,lost for maybe 15 years, tainted by our association with the greens, plenty to concern me.
Sonofglion? no mate,keep the dog on a chain, if it leaves home the average IQ will drop ten points.
If we look both sides are lead by second reserves for the B teams.
WHAT HAPPENED TO MEN LIKE curtin, Menzies, Hawk, Howard.
Why are we blind to Victorian Liberal scandals but still seeing lies about slipper.
Why is our great country so badly served by media? by reporting? by a Liberal front bench and Gillard? so bad we must ask are they kidding?

Got that off my chest, been a very busy weekend but dropped in to just look had to stretch it a bit.
I get a kick out of commentators who so clearly are ill equipped to? comment, if the intention is to show what they know.
My intentions for the thread? just once leave our biases in the bucket at the door.
And look at both sides.
Ask why we are lead by two failures.
Why folk with disapproval numbers over 55% are not removed.
What is driving both sides to BETRAY VOTERS?

Judgements should be clearly
labeled merely as personal opinions (or value
judgements), and should not be taken too
seriously.

Therefore anyone commenting on another's
"intellectual capacity," should be careful
lest their own be judged. One shouldn't want
to be the kind of person
who picks his friends - to pieces.

Dear Belly,

My previous comment was directed at SOG,
because of his insult to you which was
unnecessary and totally out of line.

Anyway, back on topic.

Barrister and human rights advocate -
Julian Burnside tells us that:

"Policy formation is one of the most important
functions of government and opposition.
Democracy assumes that the governing party best
represents the policy choices of a majority of
the people. Most people vote for a party rather
than for a person, although sometimes it seems
that they vote for a PM. regardless of the identity
of the candidate in their electorate. The party is
a priority for the voter's political philosophy -
and there was a time when the policies of each major
party were fairly predictable."

These days are long gone.

Burnside says that:

"Now it is difficult to see significant differences between
the policies of the major parties except on a few issues.
It is impossible to predict with any confidence how either
party will respond to changing circumstances. This modern
fact of political life is a result of new technology which
allows political parties to see what policy responses will
produce an electoral advantage in key marginal electorates."

The mainstream media plays, a part in this process, since
the loudest voices in the dominant outlets play a major
part in shaping the views which will be expressed in news
polls. Founding principles and philosophies of the major
parties have disappeared as significant forces in policy
formation, it seems.

Lexi, policies are simply a plan and, when passed in the parliament, they become approved plans.

However, as I have said many times before, the best laid plans can, and do come unstuck, when the implementation is wrong.

This is where labor have time and time again, been proven to be left wanting, as they simply have no idea.

You don't stimulate an economy by allowing million, if not billions to be flushed down the pokies toilet.

Just the same as it's pointless have a plan to insulate houses, when you allow cowboys to perform the work, totally without appropriate compliance governance, you know, mowing lawns one day, insulating houses the next.

It's nit so much the ideas that have let labor down, so much as the way they implemented them.

I say time and time again, if only ALL POLITICIANS were accountable.

So, are you voting this time for Tweedledum or for Tweedledee?

The one will eat you with salt, the other will eat you with pepper - so don't say you didn't have a choice!

Soggy, thanks for the explanation…. I think ( :>?

I could never have imagined that this is what you were referring to.

So you reckon the Liberals have a:

<< …track record for sound management and firm social expenditure policies. >>

Really?

I don’t see a hoot of significant difference between Lib and Lab. Sure they’ve both had their share of good policies. Neither of them is all bad. But I just can’t see that one is realistically better than the other.

And for as long as they both worship very rapid and never-ending expansionism, and live in the pockets of big business, I certainly won’t be voting for either.

If you think I’m intellectually challenged for holding this view, well go right ahead and thing that.

Of course, I would hold the view that anyone who thinks that I’m intellectually compromised is a couple of sandwiches short of a full picnic. But then I suppose I’d be a tad biased there! ( :>)

And as for Belly’s intellect, I can’t say if he’s any less intelligent or intellectual than you or me or anyone else on this forum. What counts is his great enthusiasm for debating a wide variety of issues and not being afraid to present his views just as he sees them, despite pretty frequent insults. And he is willing repeatedly to say that his party is not perfect and has a variety of problems. I consider him to be one of OLO’s best contributors.

Belly>>I am, and will remain an ALP voter.<<

See sport, there is the intellect thing again.

You also said this:
“Gillard her installation,her continued holding a position she should not have.
Thomson affair, death of the JOY Kevin 07 bought. NSW Labor, SUSSEX STREET MAGGOTS, QLD,lost for maybe 15 years, tainted by our association with the greens, plenty to concern me.”

You forgot to add we are $880 BILLION in debt, we have moved from owing less than 10% of our GDP in 2008 to owing 23% of our GDP today. Everything Labor has touched has failed. The bureau of stats shows us that over the last 50 years Labor spends and Libs save, it is as simple as that, except no Labor govt has ever taken on national debt and increased taxes like the Rudd/ Gillard circus.

You admit the shambles yourself, and then tell me proudly, Labor to the death. It's like sticking your hand in fire, if you have the intellect required you will pull it out, if not you keep burning. Alternate to it being an intellect issue it could be about being an accolyte. Belly being an acolyte is a psychological crutch, you need a team, or an identity and you stick to them even when you know they are not fit for purpose. I remember as a teen jigging school to march in the Viet moratoriums, proud to stand with the common sense Labor party of the times, the one you and I grew up with….it’s gone, swallowed by lawyers and social warriors needing a cause.

They went from taking the best bits of the socialist revolution and applying it to the people of their nation, so as to attain social justice. To selling their people to the U.N.’s view of a utopian world with every breath you take and every move you make being directed from some bullsheiser bureaucrat with a protocol from Europe.

But none of this is personally insulting to you Belly, it’s a view formulated by looking at facts and then reading what you write.

Funny thing - GDP.
Some people seem obsessed with it as a measure of success but -
Every time a forest is cleared - the GDP goes up.
Every time there is a toxic oil spill, the GDP goes up and
Every time somebody is diagnosed with cancer, the GDP goes up.

As unpopular as the ALP are, they are historically the party who built things and made the necessary social reforms that we now take for granted.

The Conservatives are a bunch of amoral, elitist, socially divisive, self-serving, do-nothing hypocrites who are no more than the mouthpiece of certain business interests.

They are a handbrake on modern society and are dedicated to keeping power where they think it belongs - in the hands of their financial sponsors and helping them line their pockets accordingly.

They build nothing in the way of infrastructure and only act on social change for electoral purposes, not out of public interest.
(What did Howard build during his "miracle years"? A dud railway and a bunch of flagpoles for schools. He did manage to put most of our public assets into private hands and hasn't that worked out well for the consumer?)

The next coalition government will do the only thing they have always done - give tax relief to the wealthy and impose further costs on the poor.

A few terms later, they will in turn be thrown out and the cycle begins again.

Lexi I excepted the words to be aimed at me.
Your retraction is noted, my view stands.
I see the usual, of little help to the ALP, the better of two sides but not perfect in this debate.
I see too the refusal, from every one, to look at just who are the proposed leaders post next election.
What the proposed policy's are, and what the effects of those IF IMPLEMENTED ARE.
Sonofglion has come back from a spell, rude crude and armed with a miss placed self confidence, nothing new there.
But some what more overbearing than usual.
This mornings Galaxy poll, tells what I have been saying for two years.
No last minute save here, right now, believe it, Liberals scandals are FAR WORSE than Labors, no one wants to know, few care.
Julie Gillard is blinding voters to our achievements.
Based on nothing but understanding my party internally, MUST BELIEVE we can not win.
We have both Rudd and Shorten, who could lift our vote by near double figures.
But do not, it appears want to waste them? but are prepared to put more than half our members heads on Gillards block.
Abbott? surely we know he is a three dollar bill!as Gillard is.

Need to thank Ludwig, and defend him, a great poster .
And try.
Yes try to re focus on this subject, is it not clear men have turned away from Gillard?
She, if arriving with God on her arm, can not lead to an election victory.
But Abbott, if he lasts, will.
What then.
What direction would we take.
Why can 5 better leaders it, sometimes on the back benches, behind these two, and not be able to grow.
Answer! both are experts at wringing the life out of new growth new talent.
Hiding their lack of any such thing.
And the jelly fish nature of their party's, no back bone.

What is it with labor supporters, as they can either see no wrong, or, they just can't see the big picture.

They (labor) have had two cracks in the past twenty odd years, both times being voted in with popular leaders, Hawlk &Rudd, both times the faceless men have defied the wishes of the voters and elected a leader who they can control, this is despite the fact that both leaders were popular people people.

Sure, Bob was a flirt, a gambler and cheated on his wife, but that did nit effect his management, and Rudd swore and was a hard man, much the same as most business leaders.

BTW, just for the record, I loved Bob, but was not a fan of Rudd, but think he was far better than our current PM.
Furthermore, both labor governments have left us with huge debt and very low business confidence.

At the end of the day, if god himself led the libs, I doubt even he could continue to dig us out of the holes left by labor.

But it not only the holes they dig in our bank account, it's also the distrust they create in the workplace.

Right this moment they are planning to take a big stick to one of the few sectors that is propping us up, and word is that sector (coking coal) may well be on shaky grounds, no thanks to the new taxes.

Now as for Tony, he doesn't have to win any election, as labor are going to losse it.

Wobbles said; Howard gave us a dud railway.
Well any major railway is a very important infrastructure for the future.

Lexi, if things are so wonderful, why did Wayne Swan put a authority
through parliament to increase the "off balance sheet" credit limit
from $225 Billion to $250 billion ?

This the money that is being borrowed for such important work as the
carbon tax compensation and similar expenditure.
This borrowing is additional to the accumalated deficit that we have
had since 2008.

Our GDP is a measure of all financial activity, positive and negative,
and if the decreasing mining activity is subtracted then we are in
real trouble and all those percentage of GDP figures can be multiplied
by about four.

So just keep praying that China keeps paying a good price for our iron
ore and burns all our coal.

Brian Burke and Campbell Newman both did something good last week. In setting aside areas in the sea for national parks Brian Burke has done much to preserve sustainability of sea life which provides part of our food input. He has also helped preserve biodiversity. In doing so he interferred with Newman's plan to increase shipping from ports behind the reef which showed disregard for the environment. Campbell Newman cancelled the Winter Olympics facility proposed for Brisbane by the past Labor government. In so doing he interferred with wasteful and unnecessary spending by the past Labor governmment.

Sometimes things work out well. In the above two examples the two parties acted as a healthy check on each other.

Pollyanna

Dear Belly,

Ian McAuley, a lecturer in public sector finance at the
University of Canberra and a fellow at the Centre for Policy
Development tells us:

"Our taxes are among the lowest of all developed countries.
Yet from those taxes we're trying to juggle the tasks of
funding a welfare system and providing important public
goods. In this allocative process social welfare gets the
first (and growing) chunk of revenue, and the shrinking
residual is allocated for public goods - those services and
assets which the market cannot supply or which the market
can supply only at very high costs."

McAuley states that, "These public goods are important for our
economic prosperity. A right leaning government with a sense of
economic responsibility would have a policy of sustaining
low taxes, but cutting into welfare, preserving public
revenue for public goods. A left leaning government would allow
taxes to rise to sustain welfare, without compromising on public goods."

Unfortunately, the current government, as McAuley says, "is not
raising the issue of our long-term fiscal viability, having
allowed the Opposition to steer its attention to the single
issue of the short-term budget surplus or deficit."

McAuley says that the Opposition for its part is even worse.
"It's policies are neither Right nor Left - but simply
idiotic."

"Mr Abbott has made it clear that he would cut taxes,
the carbon tax, mining tax, and that he would re-instate
middle-class welfare. That can only mean deep cuts in public
goods - including education, health, infrastructure, and
environmental protection - which are necessary to sustain
our living standards and to build our economic strength
for the days when the commodity boom ends."

As McAuley and other economic experts claim - "It's a
complete reversal of earlier Liberal Party policy, which,
in accordance with its emphasis on self-reliance, was
tight on welfare but generous on building the nation's
physical and human capital."

It appears as McAuley says -
"Mr Abbott and his advisers don't understand
that a welfare system needs a productive base, and that
public assets are an essential part of that productive base."

The scenario that economic experts paint if
Mr Abbott is elected as PM is rather grim.
Mr Abbott will have a complex economy to oversee.

He'll face issues of productivity, labour force
adaptability, an over-regulated business sector,
the issue of middle-class welfare, taxation distribution
between states, core roles of government, and so on.
Nothing new there. Except for the fact - as experts point out,
that the world is moving so fast and is so interlinked that
Mr Abbott is going to need the best brains around him if
Australia is to measure up.

At the moment, we're told that Mr Abbott doesn't have the
team or structures in place. He's got sound bites, slogans,
and "Look at me" TV pictures on track but not any
underlying sense of economic competence.

His front bench economic team is threadbare at best.
Frequently offering confusing, contradictory, and nonsensical
sounding messages. They lack a sense of purpose.

When it comes to winning in politics it's real policy
debate over economic issues that matter not sound bites,
slogans and "look at me" TV pictures or simply telling us
what the government is doing wrong but offering us nothing
in its place.

Amen to that, Lexi :)

Lexi, bonmot, any one who is afraid of Conservatives posing as the Liberal party.
All those concerned about my lashing the ALP.
Know this, rather stand and fight! right now.
Remind the power brokers, not faceless to me, but not elected to Parliament for the most part.
THEY BETRAYED ME! my party, in knifing RUDD.
In putting Gillard in a roll she can only fail in.
Know I weep, for my party, before our defeat!
Those who know Jono, will know he is as solid as the harbor bridge.
He gets about selling our raffle tickets and SEEING WE BUY them.
One prize, always, is a gallon of whiskey.
Know under Gillard, loss is our fate, know I will fight to avoid that, no matter what.
If victory was to be won by a drawn raffle, if Gillard bought every ticket.
As unlikely as it could happen, Jono would drink the whiskey nock the tickets off and run away before Gillard won!
Now is the time to impact on our fate ,not after it has happened.
If you share my fear about Abbott's front bench, then do not blind your self to truth.
We need a leader!

Ah so we have come to a stuttering halt.
Never the less I continue.
All my life I have thought of the three wise moneys as fools.
One refused to hear the truth.
One refused to see it.
The third refused to talk about it.
Had each not done so? IMPROVEMENT may have began!
Question time today, as it usually does,highlighted even a willingness to? LIE by conservatives.
We need desperately, to hear and see policy's from them.
If, and while Gillard rules they are, to become government.
What disaster they will be!
And what a fall for us, our country, my party, IF LABOR continues to look only at how bad Abbott is, not at how unliked Gillard is.
The money with its hands over its mouth? never going to be me!

Wobbles>> They build nothing in the way of infrastructure and only act on social change for electoral purposes, not out of public interest.<<

Let me remind you of what Julia said in a closed Labor corium only a few years back:
Gillard>>“I am against giving the pensioners a pay rise, they don’t vote for us anyway”<<
Gillard doesn’t seem to have the interests of the old at heart there Wobbles…the compassionate political organization you inferred.

Wobbles>> (What did Howard build during his "miracle years"? A dud railway and a bunch of flagpoles for schools. He did manage to put most of our public assets into private hands and hasn't that worked out well for the consumer?)<<

I will tell you what Howard did do sport, he paid off $96 billion of Labor Government debt and left Kev 20 Billion to play with. If Abbott gets in he will have a debt almost exactly ten times that if the current daily borrowings are $100 Million go on until they get thrown out next election.

Wobbles>> The next coalition government will do the only thing they have always done - give tax relief to the wealthy and impose further costs on the poor.<<

Have you heard about the carbon tax? It is only two weeks away. Most countries started at around $10 per ton, Gillard will start at $23. It is a great tax, nobody is spared. Gillard in one foul swoop has hit embryos, babes, children, adolescents, young adults mature adults, pensioners and your dead body when it is interned or burnt.

As you can see Wobbs, we are not going to agree. Particularly if I keep on delivering facts and you keep delivering spin.

Just a thought Wobbs. We wouldn't have a carbon tax if the Labor party could sell of the Commonwealth Bank twice. Keep well.

More marine parks Lexi, you say it's a good thing.

As if it's not hard enough to buy, and afford local seafood now, this will make it even harder.

Of cause, increasing imports of food, also increases risk of disiese, as the likes of Thiwan simp,y don't have the hygiene regulations we do.

The other concern, and one that was dodged by the environment minister in question time today, was the amount set aside for compensation.

When they closed section of the Barrier Reef, the amount considered to be 'fair compensation' was $10 million.

However, thanks largely to the efforts of a little known party, the fishing party, that figure grew to $250million.

This was largely due to the fac that the gverment of the day gave no, or little, consideration to the many 'off water' businesses that relied on the fishing and recreational industries.

It would have been nice for the minister to have answered that question today, cause god knows where the money will come from if the figure blows out up to 25 times the amount allocated.

Sonofgloin,

Yes, India's Carbon tax for example, is $6 per ton and ours is $23.

However, given their standard of living and weekly earnings I think you will find that $6 in India is comparatively far more expensive than $23 in Australia. This sort of thing seems to be overlooked by the spinmeisters.

When it comes to other facts rather than spin, Howard did pay off the Labor debt (and presided over an explosion in private debt) by selling off much more in public assets than the value of the debt and then squandering the resources boom by buying votes. He also flogged off most of our gold at bargain prices. The amount he blew on electoral bribes in his last term made his $20 billion rather like leftover loose change.

In making a deal with the Democrats over the passage of the GST (which is worse than any Carbon Tax) meant he paid out $200 million for a carbon abatement scheme rather than the $200,000 that Costello had in mind. Then there were the billions wasted on army helicopters that would never fly, noisy submarines and tanks that were too heavy to cross bridges. Even Costello lost over a billion on treasury "currency swaps".

Sounds more like incompetence to me, covered up only by a massive injection of cash from his mining boom,selling cheap LPG to China and the fact that his remains the highest taxing government in Australia's history - despite any Carbon Tax.

Great truth often lives in the one liners of past brilliant minds.
Who can not see, by briefly looking here, the truth in one?
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing?
Then surely none at all can be worse?
As we watch the tax debate remember it is not about cash.
It is about the future of our planet, the human race.
Abbott, his dysfunctional team, have said our environment Minister must dance to the tune of the worst bunch ever to control the Liberal party.
Under what rock will the side that is wrong[ one must be] in this debate bury their words used on this issue?

rache, much of what you say is true. I am no defender of the Libs or Howard. There is no doubt that Australia as a commonwealth now carries the largest debt burden since federation and Labor delivered it to us, simple as that. If it was a Liberal government I would be as critical. What you have to understand is that I am not partisan. Sheiser is sheiser be it from the left or the right. It just so happens that the current Labor government is the sheiserist out of the lot that have governed us since federation and to defend them is ludicrous.

Let us play a game.
No wait! we already are, not sure what it is called.
But the rules are easy.
We ignore the faults of our side, and magnify, even lie, about the other side.
Lets ignore that Abbott and Gillard best serve by leaving, and ignore that GST had twice the cost impact, maybe three times, of Carbon tax.
Great idea,lets name the game!
*self deception*