csteele asks whether I am beating a kettle drum when a door chime would suffice.

Well, am I beating a kettle drum? I think there are some very unhealthy trends in Indonesia with potentially serious consequences for this country. I would like people to be aware of them.

You quote Muhammadiya. Regardless of what they say I have about as much faith in the good will of contemporary Islamic organisations towards the "kufar" as I do in the ethics of Morgan Stanley or Goldman Sachs. And, no, that does not make me "prejudiced." It makes me a realist.

Every now and then I am asked to take somebody's statements at face value. In my life, I am almost 67, I have heard cigarette company executives debunk the dangers of smoking, I have seen billionaires explain how not taxing them is in the interests of the greater good, I have been told that nationalising or privatising some industry will advance the nation and so on and so forth.

The truth is that every group has its "spin doctors" who will say whatever needs to be said to advance the interests of the group. If the leaders of Muhammadiya believe it is in their interests to appear moderate today that's what they'll do. Tomorrow may be different.

I prefer to look at the nature of the beast be it a casino operator or a religious organisation.

So, no, I don't believe that Iran's nuclear program is peaceful and I don't believe that corporate executives who pay thousands of dollars for access to politicians do not influence legislation. And I cannot understand seemingly intelligent people who accept some obvious porkies at face value while being rightly sceptical of others.

Dear Steven;

You said; “that does not make me "prejudiced." It makes me a realist.”

As Paul Keating would reply; 'That's what they all say.'

You have managed to put Muhammadiya along side hedge funds, cigarette companies, grasping billionaires, casino operators and corporate executives who bribe politicians.

The proof is very much in the pudding.

Would you have voiced the same cynicism toward the pope and the Catholic Church when when they were condemning the slaughter of Muslims by Christians in Sarajevo? Highly unlikely one would have thought.

Muhammadiya is actually the second biggest Islamic Movement in Indonesia. The largest is “Nahdlatul Ulama (Revival/Awakening of Religious Scholars) was established in 1926 as an organization for orthodox Muslims opposed to the modernist policies of the Muhammadiyah organization” Wikipedia

Muhammadiya has mainly concerned itself with providing education and medical services to poorer Indonesians. Unlike Nahdlatul Ulama it has taken quite a firm and I think reasonably principled stance against getting involvement in politics as a party.

However Nahdlatul Ulama is making positive moves in the same direction and at its 2010 conference “passed a resolution banning officials from holding political posts, seen as a commitment to avoiding future political involvement.” Wikipedia

Hardly moves toward Theocracy one would have thought.

Do the huge charitable works of both organisations count for nothing in your eyes?

I have no problem with scepticism, have a ton of it myself, but lets try and keep it of the informed variety not the sensational.

csteele,

Perhaps the Indonesians themselves have a better understanding of the emerging climate in their country. If Wahhabism is getting an increasing influence, the situation would be grim.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/16/police-say-halting-concert-was-protect-nation-s-culture.html

reader's comment
“If the police and the government want to "protect the nation's culture", then it's high time to ban the Wahhabi hood at public and educational institutions, to kick out all bearded clerics with studies in Riyadh and to ban Wahhabi groups like the FPI, HTI, PKS, MMI and so many others that bring only restlessness within the population and are trying to impose a Middle Eastern un-culture of the desert with the help of Pancasila spitters and Constitution-traitors.”

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/22/inconsistency-over-gaga-confusing-ipw.html

… “National Police spokesman Insp. Gen. Saud Usman Nasution said on Monday that the police would allow the concert to go ahead so long as the promoter obtained recommendations from several institutions, including the Religious Affairs Ministry and the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI)".

Both institutions have shown strong opposition to the concert.”

Hi csteele,

Paul Keating is entitled to his opinions.

Let's be clear what I think about Muhammadiyah.

Do I think they want to encourage mobs to hurl urine at the kufar?

No, I don't. It is not in their interest to encourage that sort of behaviour.

But do I buy the implication of their statement – that they believe in complete freedom of worship?

I'm deeply sceptical. It is not in the nature of the beast. My guess is that Muhammadiyah is trying to position itself as the "moderate" Islamic voice within Indonesian society.

You ask:

>>Do the huge charitable works of both organisations count for nothing in your eyes?>>

Charitable works is one way movements gain adherents. Hamas' charitable works did not preclude it grooming gullible young men and women to become suicide bombers.

The Catholic Church's charitable works among AIDS sufferers in Africa are immense but it also campaigns against the distribution of condoms.

Even the Nazis ran soup kitchens in the early 1930s. Apparently Golden Dawn, the new Greek Nazi movement, also assists those in need.

So, no, the fact that these organisations engage in charitable works does not make me any less suspicious of their agenda.

When I see Muhammadiyah actively campaigning for the right of other religions to build their own houses of worship, when I see them expend their "credibility capital" on this, I'll start to believe that they are sincere in their protestations about freedom of worship.

In the mean time the fact remains that the Indonesian state is placing all manner of restrictions on the freedom of worship of non-Muslims and on the "wrong" sort of Muslims. It also remains true that the police are rather tardy in investigating assaults on non-Muslims and property damage to their houses of worship. These are ominous trends.

csteele (cont'd)

Let's consider my original post and the sad case of Alex Aan who ".. faces the possibility of up to six years in prison, charged with blasphemy, disseminating hatred and spreading atheism."

"Blasphemy" is a crime?

"Spreading atheism" is a crime?

You do appreciate that, by these standards, the Prime Minster of Australia is a criminal? Were she in Indonesia she could face six years in prison.

Imagine if you could be imprisoned in Australia for expressing doubts about the resurrection.

If Indonesia is not a theocracy it is certainly giving a good imitation of one.

Danielle,

Interesting post.

Yes, many Indonesians are uneasy about the direction their country is taking. Unfortunately too many well-meaning Australians let themselves be blinded by political correctness.

csteele

If you still entertain doubts about the theocratic tendencies of the Indonesian state you may want to study this from the Asian Human Rights Commission:

INDONESIA: Ahmadiyah members in Batam are threatened, ill-treated and illegally arrested with the acquiescence of the police

http://www.humanrights.asia/news/urgent-appeals/AHRC-UAC-086-2012

However the question to my mind is not whether Indonesia becomes a full blown theocracy. If they do, so be it. That may be a misfortune for Indonesians who do not wish to live in a theocracy but it is none of our business.

The real questions are these:

--What are the implications for Australia of a theocratic Indonesia?

--Could an Islamist Indonesia pose a threat to Australia in the future?

I do not know the answers to these questions. But it would be foolish to ignore them or to deny that trends in Indonesia are a concern for Australia.

If you view my spelling this out as banging on a kettle drum so be it.