stevenlmeyer,

I apologise. You had already cited the NY Times article.

Danielle:

Thank you for the Jakarta Post link. Interesting although the numbers look a bit rubbery. The Cia World Factbook puts the proportion of Javanese at around 40%, not the 67% the author claims. I've always thought of Indonesia as a cross between a country and the Javanese Empire

You wrote:

>>I think democracy is relative … If the majority, who are Islamic are satisfied, then they will perceive Indonesia as democratic.>>

The question is what would be the attitude of an Islamic Indonesia towards a "kufar" nation like Australia in its backyard.

If the leadership of a resurgent Islamic Indonesia gets it into their heads that it is their duty to Islamise the region we could be in for a difficult time.

Of course the real goal of the leadership would be regional domination but they would sell it to their public as a duty to spread Islam just as Americans once thought it their duty to make the world safe for democracy.

At the moment, of course, Indonesia is in no position to embark on any such venture. But given its large population and impressive rate of economic growth that will change.

Indonesia would not be the first country to get ideas of grandeur after a burst of economic success.

I have a feeling Australia could be in for a rough ride with its giant neighbour. One reason why we need a good corps of nuclear scientists.

Just in case we need the ultimate deterrent...

As Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus put it 2,000 years ago:

If you want peace prepare for war.

Still sound advice.

stevenlmeyer,

"The question is what would be the attitude of an Islamic Indonesia towards a "kufar" nation like Australia in its backyard."

I think it is even more than this. As you know I lived for many years in Malaysia. Europeans were sensitive to Muslim beliefs ... we didn't go round in skimpy outfits; a certain decorum was the rule. Even then,I recall an Indonesian referred to Australians as 'white coolies'.

Discussing,the rise of fundamental and militant Islam, a friend, married to a Kashmiri Muslim, believed that it was in some part due to fear of western values. We know many tourists behave in a way in Indonesia and Bali that they would never indulge at home - (indeed, this attitude has a long provenance worldwide, as everyone knows). Not the least is sex-tourism.

This is all grist for the mill for ordinary Indonesian Muslims, most of whom are not well educated and do not travel abroad. If they had any doubts ...

I agree with everything you say, Steven. I am not laying the blame on tourists. As you say, being non-Muslim, we already have kufar status .. but certain behaviors at street level, let alone a comparison of western values (acceptable to us) with Islamic ...

I was very surprised that reading on another Australian forum elsewhere, there was 100% support for Australia having nuclear weapons - a few even believed that we already had them. We certainly have the capacity for delivery.

Dear Steven,

Really? Nuclear weapons?

Dial it back mate. You are at a 10 while the evidence you have put before us is worth a 2 at a stretch.

I mentioned South Korea before.

“Several days before the annual Buddha’s Enlightenment celebrations, the Taejôkkwangjôn, the main Dharma Hall, a large building of ancient origin at Kûmsansa Temple is completely burned to the ground in an event which makes top news throughout the nation. The Hall is listed as National Treasure Number 476, and is the central hall in a temple which is a regional headquarters and major monastic training center for the Chogye Order. A man active in a local church is apprehended at the scene” “Although he admitted to the crime, he is released without being charged.”

“A fundamentalist Christian by the name of Yang Shinha from the Tamna Church on Chejudo Island is apprehended after setting fire to two temples – Kwanûmjôngsa and Taegaksa – completely burning them to the ground.”

“In the early morning hours, a fire is set at Pômôsa Temple in Pusan, a major monastic training center of the Chogye Order and regional headquarters. The fire completely destroys the Myôngbujôn (Chijang Bodhisattva Hall- a funeral hall), taking with it 16 priceless altar paintings of the Buddha.”

“Several days before the annual Buddha’s Enlightenment celebrations, the Chônggagwôn, the main Dharma Hall on the Kyôngju campus of Dongguk University is completely burned to the ground. Arson is suspected but no one is apprehended.”

“The huge main Dharma Hall and a temple dormitory at Potasa Temple, Oksudong, Sôngdonggu, Seoul are completely burned to the ground. A 23-year old follower of the Taesônjillihoe (Great Conversion Truth Church) is arrested at the scene.”

“The Yôngdo Church in Pusan organizes to prevent a temple from being built beside them, claiming that they “cannot accept the construction of a place of idol worship” near them.”
“At Hyundai High School, all students are required to attend church services, and their attendance at these services is reflected in their school records.”

Easy isn't it.

Dear Danielle,

How about giving the poor Indonesians a bit of a break. The Jakarta Globe story was pretty bad.

“If you are not a Muslim, even though you are a capable leader, you can never be Indonesia’s president because 87 percent of the population adheres to Islam. For instance, even if Barack Obama had lived here all his life as an Indonesian citizen, he would not have become president unless he was a Muslim.”

How many years was the US a democracy before the country was prepared to elect a Catholic in JFK or a negro in Obama?

Now please give me some idea how long you think it will be before the country elects a Muslim as President?

Come on guys. This is all pretty inane.

csteele,

Did you read the article in its entirety - or just cherrypick an obvious diversion?

I am not disparaging the Indonesians. Look at it from their point of view. Put yourself in the position of a devout Muslim ...

What do you think they feel being aware of the tourist sex industry?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/archive/travel-old/sex-tourism-driving-rise-in-hiv-cases/story-e6frg8ro-1226361801347

... or can't they form opinions? Often, leaders will exploit the apparent anger of the masses (ill-informed as it may be). It may not be the leadership's real reason for 'whatever', but it sure can be used as an excuse ...