So Lady Gaga's Indonesia concert was banned at the behest of Muslim religious groups.

But that's not the full story as Benedict Rogers explains in the New York Times.

>>...I flew 1,370 kilometers from Jakarta to Padang, West Sumatra, and drove a further 130 kilometers, a four-hour journey along rough, winding roads, to Sijunjung, to visit an Indonesian atheist jailed for his beliefs.

Alex Aan, a 30-year-old civil servant, is a gentle, soft-spoken, highly intelligent young man who simply gave up his belief in God….

He faces the possibility of up to six years in prison, charged with blasphemy, disseminating hatred and spreading atheism. Radical Muslims came to his office, beat him up, and called the police after reading about his views on Facebook.>>

(Indonesia's Rising Religious Intolerance,
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/opinion/indonesias-rising-religious-intolerance.html?_r=1)

Rogers goes on to describe mob attacks on Christians and Ahmadis.

>>One man described how he was stripped naked and beaten severely and a machete was held at his throat. He was dragged through the village and dumped in a truck like a corpse. Another man fled into a fast-flowing river, pursued by attackers throwing rocks and shouting “kill, kill, kill.”>>

Rogers describes the majority of Indonesian Muslims as "moderate" but warns of the dangers of "increasing radicalisation."

Increasingly Indonesia, a country with ten times Australia's population, is competing with this country for influence in the region:

>>Within days of expelling the Australian Federal Police, Vanuatu's Prime Minister Sato Kilman welcomed a delegation from Indonesia and offers to provide police and paramilitary training. Within 24 hours of that meeting, a Hercules aircraft loaded with equipment had arrived from Jakarta.>>

(Pacific diplomacy needs recalibrating, The Australian, 21 May 2012)

So what does this mean for Australia?

Indonesia has a rapidly growing economy. In future it, not Australia, is likely to call the shots in this region. Will it be a relatively peaceful democracy? Or will we face a powerful radicalised Muslim theocracy?

the religion of 'peace' and the religion of atheism have much in common.

I can blame no one for banning it, she is about as welcome as a head pain in my home.
Runner has me stumped! is he blaming another country for its religious belief?
Take the lass to your Church bloke, runner by name and action I think after watching her.

Hi Belly,

It's not about Lady Gaga

It's about mob persecution of everybody who is not the right kind of Muslim. That includes Ahmadiya, Christians and atheists.

Is our giant neighbour turning into a Jihadi state?

you cant 'give up belief in god'
you give up..judging the faulse god you made up

people who dont get god give up trying
tyhey never 'got'..god..in the first place

thats why jesus didnt come to found a church
church/temples/ashrams.sinnergogs..etc is the faulse god
god made real in the minds of the decieved..but a faulse god from go to woe*..

givingh up a wrong idea of god
dont mean he gave up the true good [god]
grace mercy etc..love light logic life

So what does this mean for Australia?
stevenlmeyer,
probably nothing now & in a few years it'll be too late. People just refuse to wake up.

Individual wrote:

>>in a few years it'll be too late. People just refuse to wake up.>>

Too late for what?

What do you suggest Australia does?

Is there anything Australians can do?

@Steven,

>>One man described how he was stripped naked and beaten severely and a machete was held at his throat. He was dragged through the village and dumped in a truck like a corpse. Another man fled into a fast-flowing river, pursued by attackers throwing rocks and shouting “kill, kill, kill.”>>

You don’t have to go to Indonesia to see such things--look here:

"The 31-year-old was allegedly lashed with electrical cable by four heavily bearded men who broke into his bedroom in Menton St, Silverwater, about 1am on Sunday, reported The Daily Telegraph.
Three of the men, in their late teens or early 20s, allegedly held him down on his bed while a fourth, aged between 40 and 50, allegedly lashed him about 40 times over half an hour.
The victim, a recent Islamic convert known only as Christian, told police he recognised the men from his local mosque who were punishing him for having a few drinks with friends, Seven News reported last night."

http://www.news.com.au/national/men-charged-over-sharia-law-lashing-during-sydney-home-invasion/story-e6frfkvr-1226097250289#ixzz1vg5bPWVs

SPQR

I am sure such criminal acts occur in Australia and in every other country on Earth.

In Australia these are fortunately rare though even one such event is too much. When they happen the police hunt them down.

In Indonesia mob violence against non-Muslims and the wrong kind of Muslim is endemic. The perpetrators are rarely punished.

Frankly only the willfully blind cannot see the difference between Australia and Indonesia in these cases.

Get real.

In Australia these are fortunately rare
Stenlmeyer,
yes but increasingly so. When I worked in Peakhurst & living in Cabramatta 5 houses down from big Goaf there were no drugs, no violence no nothing. I could walk home at 2 in the morning without a hitch. A few years later, some concerns arose re the influx of a quite many refugees. I trust you know the rest is history.

Dear Steven,

Definition of theocracy; A government ruled by or subject to religious authority.

Let me see. Which country has the religious head wielding the ultimate power over the government with the ability to sack the government of the day, whose representative/s preside over approvals for elections and ministerial appointments and who constitutionally has the ultimate power over the armed forces?

Sounds like it could be a theocracy to me.

Indonesia? No. A little closer to home me thinks.

From Huffington Post;

“Filipino Christian youths flash the thumbs-down signs as they chant "Stop the Lady Gaga concerts" during a rally, calling for the cancellation of the singer's May 21-22 concerts, outside the Pasay City Hall in Pasay, south of Manila, Philippines, Friday, May 18, 2012. The youths said they are offended by Lady Gaga's music and videos, in particular her song "Judas" which they say mocks Jesus Christ. Lady Gaga's concert was marked also by protest from evangelical groups in South Korea and the singer scrapped an Indonesia concert following protests from conservative Muslims.”

So if the South Koreans of the Filipinos had managed to get Lady Gaga to cancel her concerts would the same charges be laid by you?

stevenlmeyer,

Having done a lot of work in Sumatra and other parts of Indonesia and have several Indonesian friends and colleagues (of both Christian and Muslim faith), I would suggest that you are being a bit xenophobic in some of your comments. The tiny bit I know about this fascinating country would suggest that it isn’t a theocracy but there is, of course, always influence in government from all sorts of lobby groups.

There are religious radicals, fundamentalists and rednecks in all cultures. And to suggest that d--kheads are tolerated more in Indo than here is an opinion but please don't suggest some sort of moral blindness or naivety on the part of those that don't share you fervour. It’s a long bow to draw if you extrapolate a couple of examples and come up with the conclusion that mob violence is common and/or tolerated.

In Australia, we consider ourselves fiercely secular. However, if you scratch the surface a bit, you find that our fundamental laws are roughly based on the ten commandments, we swear on a Bible before testifying in court and until recently were required to sing “God Save the Queen”. Hmmm. It’s all a matter of degrees.

From the “regional influence” angle, I think you’re onto something. Their overall wealth (and hence the ability to influence) is increasing and we should take this on-board. Maybe it’s more important for Bob & Julia to be spending time chatting with SBY rather than telling NATO nations how much funding they should be directing to Afghanistan.

Steven it is also not new and not just that country.
Some practitioners of the Muslim religion do seem to show it in a bad light.
Primitive controlling and inhuman, SOME not all.
This is not new in the worlds biggest Muslim country, or many under developed ones.
Christians are subject to real horrors in India too.
Proving only this, religion is indeed the drug of the masses.
Keeping many under control.

From Andreas Harsono of Human Rights Watch.

No Model for Muslim Democracy (NY Times 21/05/2012)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/opinion/no-model-for-muslim-democracy.html

Excerpts:

>>IT is fashionable these days for Western leaders to praise Indonesia as a model Muslim democracy….

…Asia Lumbantoruan, a Christian elder whose congregation outside Jakarta has recently had two of its partially built churches burned down by Islamist militants. He was stabbed by these extremists while defending a third site from attack in September 2010.

….While Indonesia’s Constitution protects freedom of religion, regulations against blasphemy and proselytizing are routinely used to prosecute atheists, Bahais, Christians, Shiites, Sufis and members of the Ahmadiyya faith … By 2010, Indonesia had over 150 religiously motivated regulations restricting minorities’ rights.

In 2006, Mr. Yudhoyono, in a new decree on “religious harmony,” tightened criteria for building a house of worship. The decree is enforced only on religious minorities

…Mr. Yudhoyono’s government is reluctant to take them [Islamic "militants"] on because it rules Indonesia in a coalition with intolerant Islamist political parties.

..he[Yudhoyono] has actively courted conservative Islamist elements … even granting them key cabinet positions. These appointments send a message to Indonesia’s population and embolden Islamist extremists to use violence against minorities.

In August 2011, for example, Muslim militants burned down three Christian churches on Sumatra. No one was charged and officials have prevented the congregations from rebuilding their churches.

…In June 2008, the Yudhoyono administration issued a decree requiring the Ahmadiyya sect to “stop spreading interpretations and activities that deviate from the principal teachings of Islam,…The government said the decree was necessary to prevent violence against the sect. …

In the deadliest attack, in western Java in February 2011, three Ahmadiyya men were killed. A cameraman recorded the violence, and versions of it were posted on YouTube. An Indonesian court eventually prosecuted 12 militants for the crime, but handed down paltry sentences of only four to six months. …

….Even the Suharto dictatorship allowed the International Committee of the Red Cross to visit political prisoners, yet the Yudhoyono government has banned the I.C.R.C. from working in Papua.>>

Peter Mac

Indonesians are not "monsters" any more than, say, North Koreans, Sudanese or Iranians. But the regime, as distinct from the people, seems to be turning into something monstrous.

Maybe Islam and democracy can co-exist but Indonesia, contrary to the assertions of people like Hilary Clinton and David Cameron, is not SO FAR turning out to be a good example.

What the future holds I don't know but the trends do not augur well.

csteele,

What is happening in Indonesia goes well beyond Lady Gaga and a concert.

Furthermore, what happens in Indonesia is rather more important, from the Australian perspective, than events in South Korea or the Philippines. A "Jihadi" Indonesia would pose challenges for Australia that a Christian fundamentalist South Korea would not.

However, that being said, there does seem to be a global rise in religious militancy.

This weirdo cow Gaga should be banned everywhere not just in Islamic countries. It just goes to demonstrate that some islamic countries have more sense then all western countries combined.
If I had my way people like her would be cleaning for a living. It's appalling how many morons there are who pay to see this crap

Y'know individual, the essence of democracy is not merely the right to do those things that meets your or my approval.

Democracy specifically includes the right to say and do things you or I may find stupid or disgusting. Part of democracy, part of what makes Australia a great place to live, is "live and let live." I would not voluntarily attend a Lady Gaga "concert." But if some people want to that's their business. It's not mine. It's not yours. And it certainly is not the business of some religiously inspired thugs.

However, as I have been at pains to point out, the "anti-Gaga" demonstrations are only a tiny part of what appears to be the beginnings of a rather nasty Islamic tyranny in Indonesia.

Hopefully this will prove to be just a blip on Indonesia's journey to democracy. If not Australia may be in for a rough time.

stevenlmeyer,

I think democracy is relative … If the majority, who are Islamic are satisfied, then they will perceive Indonesia as democratic.

These are pertinent reading.

Written by Pitan Daslani a senior political correspondent. The comments by readers are also interesting.
http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/opinion/ethnic-and-religious-criteria-still-steer-indonesian-democracy/519231

“By 2010, Indonesia had over 150 religiously motivated regulations restricting minorities’ rights.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/opinion/no-model-for-muslim-democracy.htm

stevenlmeyer,

I apologise. You had already cited the NY Times article.

Danielle:

Thank you for the Jakarta Post link. Interesting although the numbers look a bit rubbery. The Cia World Factbook puts the proportion of Javanese at around 40%, not the 67% the author claims. I've always thought of Indonesia as a cross between a country and the Javanese Empire

You wrote:

>>I think democracy is relative … If the majority, who are Islamic are satisfied, then they will perceive Indonesia as democratic.>>

The question is what would be the attitude of an Islamic Indonesia towards a "kufar" nation like Australia in its backyard.

If the leadership of a resurgent Islamic Indonesia gets it into their heads that it is their duty to Islamise the region we could be in for a difficult time.

Of course the real goal of the leadership would be regional domination but they would sell it to their public as a duty to spread Islam just as Americans once thought it their duty to make the world safe for democracy.

At the moment, of course, Indonesia is in no position to embark on any such venture. But given its large population and impressive rate of economic growth that will change.

Indonesia would not be the first country to get ideas of grandeur after a burst of economic success.

I have a feeling Australia could be in for a rough ride with its giant neighbour. One reason why we need a good corps of nuclear scientists.

Just in case we need the ultimate deterrent...

As Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus put it 2,000 years ago:

If you want peace prepare for war.

Still sound advice.

stevenlmeyer,

"The question is what would be the attitude of an Islamic Indonesia towards a "kufar" nation like Australia in its backyard."

I think it is even more than this. As you know I lived for many years in Malaysia. Europeans were sensitive to Muslim beliefs ... we didn't go round in skimpy outfits; a certain decorum was the rule. Even then,I recall an Indonesian referred to Australians as 'white coolies'.

Discussing,the rise of fundamental and militant Islam, a friend, married to a Kashmiri Muslim, believed that it was in some part due to fear of western values. We know many tourists behave in a way in Indonesia and Bali that they would never indulge at home - (indeed, this attitude has a long provenance worldwide, as everyone knows). Not the least is sex-tourism.

This is all grist for the mill for ordinary Indonesian Muslims, most of whom are not well educated and do not travel abroad. If they had any doubts ...

I agree with everything you say, Steven. I am not laying the blame on tourists. As you say, being non-Muslim, we already have kufar status .. but certain behaviors at street level, let alone a comparison of western values (acceptable to us) with Islamic ...

I was very surprised that reading on another Australian forum elsewhere, there was 100% support for Australia having nuclear weapons - a few even believed that we already had them. We certainly have the capacity for delivery.

Dear Steven,

Really? Nuclear weapons?

Dial it back mate. You are at a 10 while the evidence you have put before us is worth a 2 at a stretch.

I mentioned South Korea before.

“Several days before the annual Buddha’s Enlightenment celebrations, the Taejôkkwangjôn, the main Dharma Hall, a large building of ancient origin at Kûmsansa Temple is completely burned to the ground in an event which makes top news throughout the nation. The Hall is listed as National Treasure Number 476, and is the central hall in a temple which is a regional headquarters and major monastic training center for the Chogye Order. A man active in a local church is apprehended at the scene” “Although he admitted to the crime, he is released without being charged.”

“A fundamentalist Christian by the name of Yang Shinha from the Tamna Church on Chejudo Island is apprehended after setting fire to two temples – Kwanûmjôngsa and Taegaksa – completely burning them to the ground.”

“In the early morning hours, a fire is set at Pômôsa Temple in Pusan, a major monastic training center of the Chogye Order and regional headquarters. The fire completely destroys the Myôngbujôn (Chijang Bodhisattva Hall- a funeral hall), taking with it 16 priceless altar paintings of the Buddha.”

“Several days before the annual Buddha’s Enlightenment celebrations, the Chônggagwôn, the main Dharma Hall on the Kyôngju campus of Dongguk University is completely burned to the ground. Arson is suspected but no one is apprehended.”

“The huge main Dharma Hall and a temple dormitory at Potasa Temple, Oksudong, Sôngdonggu, Seoul are completely burned to the ground. A 23-year old follower of the Taesônjillihoe (Great Conversion Truth Church) is arrested at the scene.”

“The Yôngdo Church in Pusan organizes to prevent a temple from being built beside them, claiming that they “cannot accept the construction of a place of idol worship” near them.”
“At Hyundai High School, all students are required to attend church services, and their attendance at these services is reflected in their school records.”

Easy isn't it.

Dear Danielle,

How about giving the poor Indonesians a bit of a break. The Jakarta Globe story was pretty bad.

“If you are not a Muslim, even though you are a capable leader, you can never be Indonesia’s president because 87 percent of the population adheres to Islam. For instance, even if Barack Obama had lived here all his life as an Indonesian citizen, he would not have become president unless he was a Muslim.”

How many years was the US a democracy before the country was prepared to elect a Catholic in JFK or a negro in Obama?

Now please give me some idea how long you think it will be before the country elects a Muslim as President?

Come on guys. This is all pretty inane.

csteele,

Did you read the article in its entirety - or just cherrypick an obvious diversion?

I am not disparaging the Indonesians. Look at it from their point of view. Put yourself in the position of a devout Muslim ...

What do you think they feel being aware of the tourist sex industry?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/archive/travel-old/sex-tourism-driving-rise-in-hiv-cases/story-e6frg8ro-1226361801347

... or can't they form opinions? Often, leaders will exploit the apparent anger of the masses (ill-informed as it may be). It may not be the leadership's real reason for 'whatever', but it sure can be used as an excuse ...

What needs to made clear here is that the average Indonesian, taking into account everyone's background, is quite a lot more sensible than the average Australian. There are 220 million people vs 22 million. Ever tried to visualise 220 Australians & how things would be then ? The one & only reason why Australia is a good country is solely due to it's small population. Keep that in mind every time you propose population growth.
Also Indonesia is a nation made up of several thousands of islands with to an Australian unimaginable logistics. We have great difficulty in dealing with about 30 islands of meagre population. I rather live here at this stage but if suddenly we were to have a huge population I'd rather have an Indonesian at the helm than some academic of questionable sex.

Steven,

You seem to identify the problem as being with the regime: <<Indonesians are not "monsters"… But the regime, as distinct from the people, seems to be turning into something monstrous>>

But what of Sam Harris’s proposition that the fault/cause lies at the heart of Islam?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNndF8RP7Lw

“Of course, millions of Muslims are more secular and are eager to help create a global civil society. But they are virtually silent because they have nothing to say that makes any sense within the framework of their faith. (They are also afraid of getting killed.) That is the problem we must keep in view. And it represents an undeniable difference between Islam and Christianity at this point in history.”
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-and-the-future-of-liberalism

@Danielle,

<<csteele,
Did you read the article in its entirety - or just cherrypick an obvious diversion?>>

Probably the latter--I noted her propensity to do that, on another thread.

SPQR,

I'm sure csteele gets a giggle from the fact that you think he's a "her" : )

Anonymity sure is fun. I remember surprising a few when I came out of the closet and revealed Poirot was a girl. ALGOREISRICH retorted: "shouldn't you be quieter then?"

Of course, fundamentally it shouldn't make any difference, but somehow it seems to - don't you think?

Csteele wrote:

>>Dial it back mate. You are at a 10 while the evidence you have put before us is worth a 2 at a stretch. >>

Christian fundamentalism in South Korea may be appalling for South Korean Buddhists. But how is this a threat to Australia?

On the other hand if Islamic factions gain the upper hand in Indonesia that country MAY, as I've explained above, pose a threat to this country.

I am NOT advocating the development of nuclear weapons in Australia now. I am saying we need to keep in being a corps of scientist capable of developing nukes should the need arise in the future. My suspicion is that is the real rationale for the new Lucas Heights reactor.

Nukes are the great equaliser. They are the only way a small country can credibly deter aggression from a giant neighbour.

Of course Indonesia is not the only reason we should keep a corps of nuclear capable scientists. But it does seem to me to be the most immediate.

However note please I'm talking about keeping the scientific know-how. I'm not advocating doing anything radical with it for now.

Danielle and csteele,

Frankly how the Indonesians go about electing their president is only of interest to me to the extent that it provides some clues to the way that country is likely to evolve into the future. Will it become a sort of Jihadi state or will it settle down?

That, not the inherent justice or injustice of Indonesian politics, is what concerns me.

It is clear that the auguries are not good.

SPQR

I agree with Sam Harris that, whatever may have been the case in the past, CONTEMPORARY Islam is qualitatively different – and more dangerous - than other religions in their CONTEMPORARY form.

I have no idea how Islam will develop into the future and neither does anybody else. I regret that an antipathy to Islam has somehow been conflated with racism. So called "Islamophoba" is simply a recognition that Islam is a dangerous ideology. It is not the only one.

Poirot,

I had always imagined CSteele --judging by his/her style --as a sort of Kenneth William character: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Williams

Then Jayb came along and ruined my image by saying Csteele was a female.

But as you say, what does/should it matter. Male or female, CSteele, serves up mighty good baloney.

I do however have a huge chuckle every-time I picture you with a little Poirot-style mustache.

SPQR,

"I do however have a huge chuckle every-time I picture you with a little Poirot-style mustache."

Well yes, my moustache is magnificent. I'm just sitting here presently applying the emollients and pomade, shaping, firming it into its appropriate alignment....(my daughter is being married this Saturday, so one needs to prepare for these things - the mother of the bride should always appear on such occasions at her best : )

Dear Danielle,

You might have to enlighten me I'm afraid.

On a thread called ’Is our biggest neighbour turning into a theocracy?’ you post a link to a story titled ’Ethnic and Religious Criteria Still Steer Indonesian Democracy’ which seemingly supports the contention that it might be, and I respond in a manner which reflects the position of many of the other respondents who have since posted on the JP article.

I'm a little perplexed as to why that might be considered a diversion, unless of course the article itself is.

However I will acknowledge you were making a point about democracy being relative and my response was potentially diversionary to that.

Dear SPQR,

If you get your bottom spanked in one thread it is hardly good manners to be bringing those grievances onto another. Time to move on my friend. Did you have something pertinent you wished to contribute here?

Dear Poirot,

;)

@ CSteele,

Prithee post or link to these shots which you say you have of me having my bottom smacked. I would most like to see them
:-p

I suspect, as with Shadow Minister on another thread, I will be waiting forever for you to substantiate your claim!

Professor Colin Brown, Dept of International Relations, Parahyangan University, Bandung, Indonesia, observes:

“Socially and probably politically, the electorate is becoming more conservative, led in particular by groups presenting themselves as defending traditional Islamic values against the allegedly “liberal” values promoted by President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and his government.”

Whether Indonesia eventually becomes a "Jihadi" state is anyone's guess.

Danielle wrote:

>>Whether Indonesia eventually becomes a "Jihadi" state is anyone's guess.>>

Agreed.

For what my tuppeny ha'porth bit is worth I think that provided they go on getting more prosperous they will escape become a full blown Jihadi state. But if there is a severe economic downturn all bets are off.

However some of the news is rather disturbing. It's not so much the incidents themselves, though they're bad enough, it's the lack of action by the police.

This from from the Herald Sun two days ago.

Mob throws urine at churchgoers

>>A MOB of Islamic hardliners has thrown plastic bags filled with urine at an Indonesian church congregation.

The attack, during which stones and dirt were also hurled, occurred on Thursday as around 100 Christians prepared to hold a service at a church in Bekasi, a city on the outskirts of the capital Jakarta.

Members of the Philadelphia Batak Christian Protestant Church have been targeted several times in recent years.

"They attacked when the priest started to speak to the congregation. A crowd of 600 people threw bags of urine and dirty water as they tried to push police," a lawyer for the church, Judianto Simanjuntak, said.

"Police didn't even try to disperse the crowd, so they were open to attack us."

[…]

Several other churches in Bekasi have suffered attacks in recent years, the worst leaving a priest badly bashed and an elderly leader stabbed during a Sunday service in 2010.

Mr Simanjuntak said that groups of Islamic hardliners had intimidated Christians in Bekasi several times this month and that leaders of the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) had been spotted among them.

[…]

Police also shut down several events held by Canadian writer Irshad Manji after the FPI held violent protests condemning Ms Manji's liberal views on Islam as well as her homosexuality.

Ninety per cent of Indonesia's population of 240 million identify themselves as Muslim but the vast majority practise a moderate form of Islam.>>

Hope for the best and plan for the worst is all Australia can do.

Dear Steven,

Sigh.

You can't claim “it's the lack of action by the police” when the quote you provides quite clearly states “A crowd of 600 people threw bags of urine and dirty water as they tried to push police”.

So the police were in attendance, they were keeping the groups separate and obviously trying to keep order. It is hardly inaction.

What is instructive was the response from Indonesia’s most influential Muslim organization, Muhammadiyah toward the incident;

“By law, the government has a duty to offer security and protection if there is a citizen, regardless of religion, who feels that they cannot perform their religious duty, or feels threatened when doing so, including building places of worship,”.

Do I think we should be aware of the issues facing our northern neighbour? Of course! But you are beating a kettle drum when a door chime would suffice.

csteele asks whether I am beating a kettle drum when a door chime would suffice.

Well, am I beating a kettle drum? I think there are some very unhealthy trends in Indonesia with potentially serious consequences for this country. I would like people to be aware of them.

You quote Muhammadiya. Regardless of what they say I have about as much faith in the good will of contemporary Islamic organisations towards the "kufar" as I do in the ethics of Morgan Stanley or Goldman Sachs. And, no, that does not make me "prejudiced." It makes me a realist.

Every now and then I am asked to take somebody's statements at face value. In my life, I am almost 67, I have heard cigarette company executives debunk the dangers of smoking, I have seen billionaires explain how not taxing them is in the interests of the greater good, I have been told that nationalising or privatising some industry will advance the nation and so on and so forth.

The truth is that every group has its "spin doctors" who will say whatever needs to be said to advance the interests of the group. If the leaders of Muhammadiya believe it is in their interests to appear moderate today that's what they'll do. Tomorrow may be different.

I prefer to look at the nature of the beast be it a casino operator or a religious organisation.

So, no, I don't believe that Iran's nuclear program is peaceful and I don't believe that corporate executives who pay thousands of dollars for access to politicians do not influence legislation. And I cannot understand seemingly intelligent people who accept some obvious porkies at face value while being rightly sceptical of others.

Dear Steven;

You said; “that does not make me "prejudiced." It makes me a realist.”

As Paul Keating would reply; 'That's what they all say.'

You have managed to put Muhammadiya along side hedge funds, cigarette companies, grasping billionaires, casino operators and corporate executives who bribe politicians.

The proof is very much in the pudding.

Would you have voiced the same cynicism toward the pope and the Catholic Church when when they were condemning the slaughter of Muslims by Christians in Sarajevo? Highly unlikely one would have thought.

Muhammadiya is actually the second biggest Islamic Movement in Indonesia. The largest is “Nahdlatul Ulama (Revival/Awakening of Religious Scholars) was established in 1926 as an organization for orthodox Muslims opposed to the modernist policies of the Muhammadiyah organization” Wikipedia

Muhammadiya has mainly concerned itself with providing education and medical services to poorer Indonesians. Unlike Nahdlatul Ulama it has taken quite a firm and I think reasonably principled stance against getting involvement in politics as a party.

However Nahdlatul Ulama is making positive moves in the same direction and at its 2010 conference “passed a resolution banning officials from holding political posts, seen as a commitment to avoiding future political involvement.” Wikipedia

Hardly moves toward Theocracy one would have thought.

Do the huge charitable works of both organisations count for nothing in your eyes?

I have no problem with scepticism, have a ton of it myself, but lets try and keep it of the informed variety not the sensational.

csteele,

Perhaps the Indonesians themselves have a better understanding of the emerging climate in their country. If Wahhabism is getting an increasing influence, the situation would be grim.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/16/police-say-halting-concert-was-protect-nation-s-culture.html

reader's comment
“If the police and the government want to "protect the nation's culture", then it's high time to ban the Wahhabi hood at public and educational institutions, to kick out all bearded clerics with studies in Riyadh and to ban Wahhabi groups like the FPI, HTI, PKS, MMI and so many others that bring only restlessness within the population and are trying to impose a Middle Eastern un-culture of the desert with the help of Pancasila spitters and Constitution-traitors.”

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/22/inconsistency-over-gaga-confusing-ipw.html

… “National Police spokesman Insp. Gen. Saud Usman Nasution said on Monday that the police would allow the concert to go ahead so long as the promoter obtained recommendations from several institutions, including the Religious Affairs Ministry and the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI)".

Both institutions have shown strong opposition to the concert.”

Hi csteele,

Paul Keating is entitled to his opinions.

Let's be clear what I think about Muhammadiyah.

Do I think they want to encourage mobs to hurl urine at the kufar?

No, I don't. It is not in their interest to encourage that sort of behaviour.

But do I buy the implication of their statement – that they believe in complete freedom of worship?

I'm deeply sceptical. It is not in the nature of the beast. My guess is that Muhammadiyah is trying to position itself as the "moderate" Islamic voice within Indonesian society.

You ask:

>>Do the huge charitable works of both organisations count for nothing in your eyes?>>

Charitable works is one way movements gain adherents. Hamas' charitable works did not preclude it grooming gullible young men and women to become suicide bombers.

The Catholic Church's charitable works among AIDS sufferers in Africa are immense but it also campaigns against the distribution of condoms.

Even the Nazis ran soup kitchens in the early 1930s. Apparently Golden Dawn, the new Greek Nazi movement, also assists those in need.

So, no, the fact that these organisations engage in charitable works does not make me any less suspicious of their agenda.

When I see Muhammadiyah actively campaigning for the right of other religions to build their own houses of worship, when I see them expend their "credibility capital" on this, I'll start to believe that they are sincere in their protestations about freedom of worship.

In the mean time the fact remains that the Indonesian state is placing all manner of restrictions on the freedom of worship of non-Muslims and on the "wrong" sort of Muslims. It also remains true that the police are rather tardy in investigating assaults on non-Muslims and property damage to their houses of worship. These are ominous trends.

csteele (cont'd)

Let's consider my original post and the sad case of Alex Aan who ".. faces the possibility of up to six years in prison, charged with blasphemy, disseminating hatred and spreading atheism."

"Blasphemy" is a crime?

"Spreading atheism" is a crime?

You do appreciate that, by these standards, the Prime Minster of Australia is a criminal? Were she in Indonesia she could face six years in prison.

Imagine if you could be imprisoned in Australia for expressing doubts about the resurrection.

If Indonesia is not a theocracy it is certainly giving a good imitation of one.

Danielle,

Interesting post.

Yes, many Indonesians are uneasy about the direction their country is taking. Unfortunately too many well-meaning Australians let themselves be blinded by political correctness.

csteele

If you still entertain doubts about the theocratic tendencies of the Indonesian state you may want to study this from the Asian Human Rights Commission:

INDONESIA: Ahmadiyah members in Batam are threatened, ill-treated and illegally arrested with the acquiescence of the police

http://www.humanrights.asia/news/urgent-appeals/AHRC-UAC-086-2012

However the question to my mind is not whether Indonesia becomes a full blown theocracy. If they do, so be it. That may be a misfortune for Indonesians who do not wish to live in a theocracy but it is none of our business.

The real questions are these:

--What are the implications for Australia of a theocratic Indonesia?

--Could an Islamist Indonesia pose a threat to Australia in the future?

I do not know the answers to these questions. But it would be foolish to ignore them or to deny that trends in Indonesia are a concern for Australia.

If you view my spelling this out as banging on a kettle drum so be it.

Dear Steven,

I'm really going to have to think about giving up OLO for a while. I find myself getting crabbier  than a Darwin mud flat every post you lot make on this issue and you are actually one of the better ones.

There was a time I would gently prod you in the right direction through reasoned argument and pleasant discourse, all very PC of course. Now I just feel like wringing your necks.

Alan Aan is not charged with atheism for God’s sake. He is charged with blasphemy defined by Indonesian law as ’publicly expressing feelings or doing something that spreads hatred, abuse or taints certain religions in a way that could cause someone to disbelieve religion.’

Note the word ’publicly’.

For crying out loud think about it, Indonesian citizens must place one of the following on their identity cards — Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Confucianism. One is certainly not monotheistic and two are positively anti-theistic. 

Julia Gillard has little to worry about.

Sheesh!

Are the actions of the Indonesian police of a concern to those with a more liberal  cultural perspective? Of course! Are they a reason to start Los Alomos in outback NSW? Definitely not!

csteele,

"There was a time I would gently prod you in the right direction through reasoned argument and pleasant discourse, all very PC of course."

You are arrogant, aren't you? How many times have your arguments/facts been found to be flawed because you didn't do your homework? Indeed, you confessed on another forum that you tended to accept 'information' that supported your world-view.

PC? Exactly what has that achieved? I was taught, as were many, many others, that one didn't offend others' religions and also accepted people whatever race they were. Common courtesy - nothing new there. However, that didn't mean ignoring the elephant in the room. In the early 19th century, the British outlawed the practice of suttee. What would the PC crowd have done? At a feminist meeting, I raised the issue of FGM and was informed that I would be offending cultural sensitivities to even discuss this appalling practice.

Those who work with and help refugees are not burdened with PC. They can't afford to be.

As for uncritically accepting Islam whatever the beliefs/practices ... An increasing number of Muslim intellectuals are raising their voices about the horrors committed in Islam's name; these same intellectuals issue warnings to the west.

However, they "are not heard above the din of so-called western "intellectuals".One writer observes that by ignoring the facts,"the high priests of political correctness" view their suffering of no consequence - effectively relegating them to the status of the 'white man's burden.' He further compared this with the way western "intellectuals" viewed the victims of Stalin and Mao.

Iranian intellectuals and dissidents look to the west for moral support against Islamic atrocities in their country. Intellectuals and dissidents regularly "disappear". By 2000, Iranian refugees were the largest group in the world, numbering 2 million. Speak to any Iranian in this country ...

Dear Danielle,

Am I arrogant? Possibly, I personally would think I'm increasingly belligerent which is still all in all an undesirable trait.

Should I have said "There was a time I would gently 'try and' prod you in 'my' direction through reasoned argument and pleasant discourse”? Probably.

You said; “Those who work with and help refugees are not burdened with PC. They can't afford to be.” I do volunteer in that field and find a degree of PC/good manners pretty handy in developing and maintaining relationships.

Have I been “uncritically accepting Islam whatever the beliefs/practices”? Not a chance.

You asked “How many times have your arguments/facts been found to be flawed because you didn't do your homework? “. Well there has probably been a few, though not many in the cause of incitement or fear-mongering.

But I'm not sure how much criticism I should be accepting from someone who claims 2 million Iranians are the largest refugee group in the world when there are over 5 million Palestinian refugees, many languishing for decades in camps.

My world view recognises them, yours it appears doesn't.

If you consider that arrogance I will wear the label with pride.

csteele,

Why raise the issue of Palestinians on this discussion? However, if you must ...

Five million Palestinians languishing in camps. You mean languishing in camps in Arab states.

How come such a high number? The numbers leaving Israeli territory in the 1948 exodus numbered 750,000 Arabs? This was less than the number of Jews forcibly expelled from Arab states with just the clothes on their backs; their monies, properties, schools, businesses, etc. etc. all appropriated by the relevant regimes. Indeed, more than 50% of Israeli Jews are descended from these refugees, descendants of whom historically belonged to the land, always having had a presence in the region.

Palestinian refugee status is currently passed onto all male descendants. Perhaps with sexual equality, refugee status will be eventually passed to all females at least doubling that number to 10 million. Currently the Australian population is just under 23 million. Should they all decide to come to Australia (or go elsewhere) do you think they would be recognised as refugees?

Abbas recognises that the 'right of return' for the 5 million 'refugees' is illogical, indeed a nonsense. Israel's total population is just under 8 million of whom 75% are Jewish, 20.5 % are Arab. Despite your claims of ethnic cleansing, the Arab population has higher birth rates than the Jewish.

Now that the Palestinians have a state, surely they are no longer refugees.

Right of return has no legal standing anywhere. The idea was floated when refugees, both Jewish and Arab, were at their original number – it applied to both groups. Do you believe that Arab states would accept Jewish refugees?

All fair-minded people wish to see the Palestinians prosperously settled in their homeland; and most importantly, both Israel and a Palestinian state living in peace and harmony. The Palestinian leadership has been opportunistic and worse. The Palestinians deserve better.

Incidentally, good manners towards refugees is expected. PC infers that the client is fundamentally 'not up to snuff' – it is patronising.

What it all means is that in a few short years the oil & gas reserves in the Timor Sea, Greater Sunrise etc will be strategically important to the US, & can I refer to my earlier post here (24 Sep 2006) in regards to this emerging threat? Hence new US base @ Mandorah. If Indon fishing boats remain able to land here with impunity, the least serious threat will be via a biological vector - Foot & Mouth or Rabies when their on board pets run ashore - see the Roper River Bar events a few years back when up to a dozen expat Indons decided on a fishing trip over here that went pear shaped. Kopassus have been trained here for years & the 'fishing' boats are another method of reconnaisance. The Conoco-Phillips LNG and no doubt the soon to be built Inpex LNG plant will equally be able to be breached and taken by hostiles in a matter of minutes unless the clowns in Malfunction Junction realise just how vulnerable they really are...