This, after at least 3 years of asking Liberal/Conservatives/ALP haters to post such a thread is my look at the opposition.
First no mistake here, I honestly without reserve think Abbott leads a Conservative party not the once Liberal party.
A party more like the Tea Party Republicans than any other.
But too that Liberalism will reemerge one day.
Such a reemergence will make my party,ALP work much harder to win office.
Mr Negativity, who could not know he indeed is Doctor No.
He would latch on to a bogon moth flying under the lights out side Parliament to blame Labor .
He has just been interviewed calling for the walking hair style Steven Smith to say sorry.
For as I did questioning the actions of a seeming biased fool, in charging a victim of sexual assault with minor matters at a very bad time.
Is this further evidence of the Mad Monks anti woman bent? on International Womans day?

While I have been free, very much so, with concerns about my party, the ALP.
You will find little or no navel gazing from the other side.
Had this mornings NSW news, about a National Party state member who resigned after admitting he filled in a false declaration.
He denied he was driving a speeding car, todays story's say no prosecution is to take place.
Imagine the out cry, here if he had been a Labor member, Conservatives hide their sins.
Waste, we hear it everyday, and famous anti Labor posters constantly, call for tighter welfare payments.
Our Tony Abbott, who loves the big new tax theme, is to tax business, so family's on combined incomes up to $150.000 can get welfare payments to have Children.
Like Republicans, Conservatives, no team lead by Abbott's team can be anything else, confrontation has become the norm.
Confront every thing, The founder of the Liberal party Sir Robert Menzies is worth a look, he had different views .
John Howard a fan and much more of Menzies styled himself on him.
History will be kind to both, each had the public, including ALP voters in their hands.
Menzies retired and his party soon lost office, Howard gave his seat and government away, no one beat him, he did that himself.
Who can ever think Tony Abbott, for that matter Gillard, on their popularity ratings, will ever be so highly regarded.
Howard remember but for work choices would still be PM.
And we would have had a carbon scheme not unlike Labors in place now.
Abbott or Howard no comparison.

The Libs purged all their moderate members over the last decade and are left with little else than hard right extremists at the helm.

Turnbull was recruited as a possible vote-puller after Brendan Nelson but was dumped by their right-wing and they lurched even further to the right with Abbott.

The Greens may nowadays be seen as being to the left of the ALP but seriously, who is there to the right of the LNP?

Turnbull will be a disaster.He will entrench the CO2 tax and further enslave the masses.

Abbott is a bit of an unknown quantity.While I don't trust any polly he may have some redeeming features.Time will tell.

This is very intriguing, Arjay;

I am well aware that the Libs are liberal in name only (and Abbott in particular), but to go as far as enslavement of the masses? I am keen to know how exactly is Turnbull going to achieve that, if you may kindly elaborate.

It would do this country no harm to truly look at this Conservative mob.
I am pleased, very much so, that some identify the lurch to the right of the ex Liberal party.
I am reminded and ask that we all consider this,John Howard,said *a win for Obarma*, in 2008,* would be a win for the terrorist group*
A faction of this party, from about 1958, has been ex middle European with right wing views.
Branch stacking and pushing true Liberals out.
I truly fear the attachment to American Republicanism.
Yes fear, and we all should, no less than the 1950,s concerns about Labors some times perceived some times true links to another anti Democratic, now dead truth smothering movement.
Remember this, America driven by republicans has so very many street people and so many die just because they have no health care.
Abbott intends to cut much that we need.
Liberalism will one day rise again but not without many leaving the party they taint.
Non core promise will be numbered in the tens, they have to be,after this bloke wins.
While cutting the needys benefits he intents to help the middle income earners, by? a big new tax.

arjay mate not targeting you, but like me, or any one you can get it wrong.
In putting our thoughts here we are not surely saying others are not free to disagree.
I found this in your post, maybe I was looking for it, I do not think so.
I find your post to me, reminds me some true rubbish is said in politics, from both sides about both sides.
And we, some of us, form opinions that are just plain wrong, totally.
I claim no halo for my party, but want to note the one sided anti ALP posters are absent.
Except you, and substance is missing in your post.
I intend, if I am alone here,to continue this thread, Australia confronts a new government that has so far, no policy's that look Liberal to me.
The sins of the ALP are a grain of sand, hidden in a beach of lost Liberal party ideals.
My country must consider before it marches away from true Democracy in to the arms of increasing Republican right wing danger.

Yuyutsu,Turnbull is a Goldman Sach's boy like Obaman,Newt Gincrich,Mitt Romney and most of Congress.

Ron Paul is the only one who wants real change.ie bring home the troops,ending the wars,restoring the Constitution and getting rid of the US Federal Reserve.Our Pollies just buckle to whatever happens in the US.They all fall over themselves to please when the US beckons.

I'm just hoping that Abbott has some integrity like Ron Paul and does get rid of the CO2 tax and balances the budget.

Arjay,
There's no chance of economic improvement under labor. It's the the new labor Doctrine which flies in the face of the original doctrine which coincidently is the same as the now Liberal one.
So, the only choice for a staunch Labor supporter is to vote Liberal. You see it's all gone ar$e about. The new Labor doctrine as unofficial as it may be is not designed as an economic model, it's purely to give the hangers-on a good life at the expense of the workers. Just like the Liberals once were. So there you go.

Abbott's payed parental leave sounds like another good reason no to hire women.
He is to impose a levy on business to pay for a full wage scheme.
It sounds like a big new tax to me.
What if you don't employ women.
Joint earnings of 150,000 is what you could say liberal.
So it all continues, the more you earn the more you get.
The next thing will be to pay women to get pregnant, no doubt.
The coalition and the nations most wealthy few, will pave the way for a fair go for billionaires.
Abbott calls AU's top 1% as middle class, doesn't give much hope for the rest of us.
Andrew Robb has been spokesperson, instead of Big Joe, with his 70 billion black hole, that was a mistake.

It’s not hard to see where you are coming from here Belly and Co.

The general theme seems to be to target what appear to be all the threats you perceive, which are Abbott, Abbott, Abbott and Abbott.

However, because you are not getting the collective hate bite you’re looking for you need to give it a boost. That boost comes from associating Abbott with other things you hate. Howard, Conservatives, Republicans, middle class Australian’s, choice, big end of town, free enterprise and so on.

You have now collectively replaced the answer to the Universe, which was originally 42, with a new answer which is of course Abbott. Because you don’t like this either you have to denigrate your own answer. Mr. Negative, Mr. No Policies, just another filthy, disgusting, bloated conservative, anti-Christ.

What you fail to understand is that because of all the ideological rants, you are telegraphing all those things that are a threat to the survival of the ALP Government. You also telegraph what you wish for, mostly Mr. Turnbull, again as a form of salvation for the ALP.

There are certain realities you need to get used to. Currently about 70% of Australians will not vote for the ALP. The traditional flow of preferences will never be the same again. Everything the Government and its Ministers are doing and saying is making things even worse. They will be wiped off the political map very soon and it will be the only thing this government has actually ever earned.

This will bring great joy to a majority of Australians and a ringing endorsement of democracy at work. That will be the cue to go to your “bile bucket” for a few handfuls of consolation and for others on OLO to revisit some of your relevant threads.

Sorry but there will be no salvation.

Belly, I think maybe Tony Abbott and the opposition look to be so far
right is because the government has gone so far left.
The govt is harping on the lack of stated policies of the liberals
but I think you have forgotten how the liberals used to accuse labour
of refusing to say what their policies were well before the election.

None of the oppositions will define their policies until the election
is called. It is just commonsense.

Also I think you are believing everything that your party is saying
about Tony Abbott, you know what I mean,
"What a terrible thing it will be if he becomes PM !"
"What a terrible man he is, women should all run for the hills etc etc"
"The terrible monk etc"

This is just waffle waffle, I am waiting for some facts, but they
never come.

I think you overlook what I have heard plenty say;
"I don't know, I don't particularly fancy Abbott but he can't be worse
than what we have now."

But then he might turn out to be a real diamond !

I for one think Belly has summed up the situation pretty well at the start of the thread.

Arjay, "enslave the masses"? In Australia?
Do you not think that might be a tad hyperbolic?
With the powers that the US and UK governments have given themselves post 9/11, I think a case could be made and supported that Australia is most free country on the planet.
In what way are we enslaved?
Now, as for Abbott's "redeeming features, example please?
Because I'm damned if I can find one.
He has no policies, his constant putting down of the Australian economy has helped to create an unfounded climate of fear that has helped to bring about the awful retail situation that Rechtub has fairly highlighted on many occasions.
Arjay, sooner or later, if you're going to make a worthwhile contribution to the debate, you're going to have to start considering reality.
Annoying thing, reality. But hard to escape.
For most of us, anyway.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Anthonyve,

<<I for one think Belly has summed up the situation pretty well at the start of the thread>>.

You are perfectly entitled to agree. Just one small problem though. You refer to that <Annoying thing, reality>>

Since 70% of Australians disagree with you, perhaps its time for you to look into the reality you are trying to escape?

Uhh?, I've had 8 years university and my view is that - this is intellectual, over complicated analysis and bloody waste of brain cells; in short - mindless tangental drivel.

The polls are not bad we have a opposition govt, that can not be judged as yet.
I do not like the way the conservatives allow big business to shape policy.
Govt; and big business have to be at arms length or else we have a corrupt govt;
When govt resumes there will be plenty of business to attend to, big accusations have been made, that need addressing

[Deleted for abuse.]

Belly, anyone who is a 'Liberal/Conservatives/ALP hater' doesn't have many options left.
Who, apart from the Greens, could such a multi-hater belong to?

Abbot is anti science, talks irresponsibly at untested New technology. What he said about coal seam gas is plain nonsense, totally ignoring the menace of methane emissions of fracking coal at a depth of a few hundred meters.

Our good man wants an audit on the public service, as big Joe said 20,000 will go. They will have to do this to cover some of the 70 billion $ black hole.

pepper, hope you did psychology.

Pest said;
What he said about coal seam gas is plain nonsense, totally ignoring
the menace of methane emissions of fracking coal at a depth of a few hundred meters.

What you are seeing is a desperate scramble for reliable energy supply.

At present we have a happy search for a return to yesterday.
The whole society is betting their voting papers on either labour or
liberal doing the job for them.
Well I have news for them, neither will succeed in that endeavor.
With our GDP stuck at a low level, and here we are the same as the
rest of the world that the government says we are better than, we will
not be able to finance all the projects we would like to see built.

Notice how politicians are increasingly saying how they cannot
finance this or that because they do not have the funds, well that is
because the high cost of energy is eating our GDP.
GDP is our profit that pays our loans and interest and any left over
is used for new projects..

The present government is avoiding having to cry poor as often by
borrowing about $2 billion a week in their bond actions.

Remember, manage your borrowings or your borrowings will manage you !

Spindoc,
Consistant with your username you use facts the way a drunk uses a lamp post, more for support than illumination.
70% may prefer the Coalition, but abbott as a preferred prime minister is at abysmal levels.
Most of the time his popularity is lower than Gillard's.
And that's saying something.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Noooo, Anthonyve,

The polls do not show that 70% prefer the coalition; they show that 70% will not vote for the ALP and that includes voting for your views.

Now that we have sorted that out you are correct, I do “use facts” and your acknowledgement is appreciated.

On the voting issue you are sadly mistaken about the “popularity” of Gillard vs Abbott. If ever the ballot papers offer Australians the opportunity to vote for personalities you might have had a point, but they don’t. It will never matter who leads which party because it will never be tested. 70% opposition to the ALP is still 70% opposition.

All that remains in doubt will be what percentage will vote for the Greens/Independents? Since we have seen the trend in NSW, Victoria and WA (QLD next?) to overturn traditional preference flows, I suspect, as do many experts, that the ALP and minor parties are heading for annihilation.

A 2PP vote of 45-55 will see a very long time in richly deserved opposition for the ALP and their useful idiots.

The Liberals could drag someone from the local asylum and still lead them to victory. Perhaps the same asylum as we got the ALP, it won’t matter.

Unless of course, you know different?

Labor has lost the plot. That's all there's to it. period!

Sorry, Spindoc, but as usual, you've got it wrong again in your use and interpretation of statistics.
Also, there's nothing clever in selectively and thus misleadingly, quoting me, as anyone who reads your post can go back and see what I really said.
Right there you demonstate an only passing acquaintance with the truth.
By cutting out a few of my words and assigning a different meaning to the one I intended, you are, what is it again?
Oh, right, spin doctoring.
A standard right wing ploy, commonly used as a substitute for policies.
But do keep trying. The law of averages says you will get something right, for the right reasons, someday.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Anthonyv you will gain no ground with spindoc, others however are even more lost.
This I know, in power Abbott will earn the enmity of many who praise him here.
This worst government ever has been thrown at Whitlam, and indeed Fraser.
We will see much the same said about Conservatives.
At least three years, of challenging conservatives to reflect on their party's faults, unanswered.
Any one truly think they have none.
Today Abbott promised to cut education and health, as have the Republicans.
He proposes cuts to pensions and welfare, but both? both? a tax cut and a new tax for business?
To fund welfare for the well of.
Abbott wants more for private schools less for public.
He talks steel industry death but will not support it or the motor industry.
Doctor No has no idea of economics, yet will not address his 70 billion black hole.
Some power the pro Abbott machine on nothing more than news papers and shock jocks tell them.
Individual would have to goggle it to find out who the shadow treasurer is big shadow too.

Anthonyve, I love it.

So my obtuse friend, where did I previously <<as usual>> get it wrong?

What use and interpretation of statistics did I get wrong?

Where precisely did I <<selectively>>, <<misleadingly>> (is that a real word?) quote or misquote you so that we can all go back and see whatever it was you think you said but have not actually pointed to?

What does “a passing acquaintance with the truth mean”? I know what it meant when Julie Bishop said it in parliament last week. (And you thought we would be impressed didn’t you?)

What words of yours did I cut out? What reassignment of “meaning” did I apply to any quote you made?

If this was, as you suggest, “a standard right wing ploy”, what would a “non-standard right wing ploy” look like? What earned me the tag of a right winger? And why would I personally need a “policy” when I’m not a politician? If I’m not a politician and don’t need to present a policy, why would I need a substitute for a policy?

You see, you said so little yet you raised so many questions. Is it not time that you at least started to think before you write? Or is ready, fire, aim part of your ideology?

Oh dear, spindoc,
So many questions from you, so much educating for you to undergo.
Honestly, I just don't have the time for such a mammoth task.
And I suspect it would be a lost cause anyway.
As to why I would naturally conclude that you're a right winge? Obviously, my dear chap, from your user name. How else?
Dead giveaway.
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Oh Dear Anthonyve,

So, we are not worthy of a response from your great intellectual eminence as you don’t have the time for plebs such as OLOers?

So what precisely are OLOers to make of the next time you post here?

I guess we must just accept that you are not here to justify in any way, anything you might proffer in the form of the intellectual crumbs you may deign to post.

I take great delight in seeing those who profess some intellectual skills, stand on the end of the garden rake as the handle smacks them in the gob.

More please, you are really funny, embarrassing but funny.

You really should start your own blog. That way you can say what you want and not get challenged. You could call yourself ……er, let me think now? Ah, yes, how about Walter Mitty?

Anthonyve, you must be a noobee :)

Just google "barry spinks" (aka OLO's spindoctor) ,"Menzies House" and "tax me".

spindoc a 'right winger'?

Going by his ad hom and increasingly shrill responses - you have touched a nerve. Personally, I can't be bothered.

Dear Arjay,

"Yuyutsu,Turnbull is a Goldman Sach's boy [... (discussion of American politics) ...] I'm just hoping that Abbott has some integrity like Ron Paul and does get rid of the CO2 tax and balances the budget."

While I also hope that Abbott will get rid of the CO2 tax and balance the budget (although I believe there will be some higher priorities to do once he steps in, such as stopping the NBN), I fail to understand the logic of how American politics would possibly enslave us, Australians.

What EXACTLY do you expect Mr. Turnbull to do to us? Are you claiming that Turnbull follows blindly some American master named "Goldman" and that this particular Goldman guy has a desire to enslave Australians, which Turnbull would execute on his behalf?

Suppose indeed that Turnbull is mad or addicted to or brainwashed by that Goldman guy, how will the Australian parliament and senate ever approve of his crazy measures to put us in chains? Please elaborate further.

Hi Spindoc,
Apparently, you have chosen to interpret a comment directed to you specifically as being directed to all OLOers.
Ergo, either you feel that you speak for all OLOers or are in some way representative of them.
Wrong.
On both counts.
You clearly lack both the intellect and the rhetorical skill to either represent OLOers or to speak for them.
Be under no illusions; my comments were for you and you alone.
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Just an ordinary bloke I sat back and watched my game last night.
Any one watching, true, would wounder why I kept grinning, like a loon.
This thread is why,our spindoc.
Look with me,he fabricates so much rubbish, without substance, his carbon foot print is massive.
And boy is his self assurance miss placed,above all, he is a standard issue CONSERVATIVE.
Never wrong, never admit at least,never find fault on your own side of the fence, and he knows a lie, deliberate one, is a standard issue tool.
Just like the pencil at voting time in old folks homes, to be gently rubbed out and re voted.
Individual too, can any student of politics not see? Labors drift to the left, ROTFL!
Greens verbally punch me, for defending the opposite.
I highlight, again, no Conservative, posing as Liberal, has one single fault to report in their party.
Can that be so.
How is constant improvement and accountability to take place in such a perfect mob?
Why is Australia contemplating a Government so closely linked to American Republicanism, just at the time that mob look so bad?
Are we to let fair go mate die?
Tax the poor to advantage the rich?

[Deleted for abuse.]

Today Abbott promised to cut education and health,
Belly,
You're always throwing accusations at us about being wrong. Well, may I say it's you who is way off the track. Tighten your wheel bearings.
Abbott did not promise to cut everything. He promised to cut waste. Now if you're having trouble comprehending this then you really should take a step back & look up the dictionary under waste.

Abbott has promised lots of things.
In fact, he's pretty much promised everyone whatever he or she wanted to hear promised, to the point that his own shadow finance minister, Andew Robb is now distancing himself from Abbott's wild, on-the-fly commitments, which so far have generated a 70BAUD black hole.
Who do ya trust?
Maybe not Gillard, definitely not Abbott.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Anthonyve,
And you people have the gall to accuse an unproven Tony Abbott of this ? Get real!


Q. How did Wayne Swan save Australia from the Global Financial Crisis?
A. He used all the money put aside by Peter Costello.

Q. How many surplus budgets has Wayne Swan brought in?
A. None.

Q. How many surplus budgets did Peter Costello bring in?
A. 10 out of 11.

Q. Which Australian Federal Treasurer managed to turn a $80b surplus into a $153b budget debt in just 3 years?
A. Wayne Swan.

Q. Which Australian Federal Treasurer has to steal money from the 'Futures Fund' to give the false impression that his economic management has brought the budget back into surplus by 2012-13?
A. Wayne Swan.

Q. What did Wayne Swan do to receive the World's Greatest Treasurer title?
A. He spent all the money Peter Costello put in the bank.

Q. Where would Wayne Swan be if he didn't have a mining boom and China to prop him up?
A. Up the creek without a paddle.

Q. How is Wayne Swan planning on getting the budget back into surplus by 2012-113 apart from robbing the 'Futures Fund'.
A. He is going to spend the mining boom funds on the NBN and illegal immigrant welfare and then tax the backside off you via the Carbon Tax, The Congestion Tax , scrubbing the health rebate for wage earners over $80K and upping the GST rate and any other tax he can come up with.
Don't anyone dare mention a fat-tax!

Abbott wants to cut health education and public service. Normal areas for coalition govt; Tax breaks for the 1%, pledges is blood, crap, no, 70 billion $ black hole.
Every thing a coalition is expected to be.
What is the next installment.

Abbott wants to cut health education and public service.
579,
now you're copying Belly's lines. It's not about cutting jobs, get that into you instead of trying to misconstrue & angling for negatives. Just because you don't understand the definition of waste doesn't mean we want this waste to continue. I don't know Tony Abbott personally but I have met many Labor cronies. I can confidently say that the Coalition Has a far greater degree of integrity than Labor. I have had that proven on a number of occasions.
No politician is perfect but no Coalition politician has as little integrity/competence as those in Labor.
To me anyone who is pro Labor is anti Australia.

The coalition are doers for believing what they read in the paper, and that is where i get my info from.
He makes wild statements and it gets printed. They are up to 70,billion in the red.
So i am not surprised he is looking for govt; cuts. Hospitals and education, are easy targets, as with public servants. The vic; conservative govt is doing just that also. This is how they operate.
Big Joe is not popular with the 1%, he gets figures wrong. He says 20,000 will go.
Protect the noalition all you like, i can only repeat what i hear or read. News papers don't tell lies, do they.

579,
I suppose the term natural attrition is foreign to you. My guess is that you lot are trembling with fear that we might just get a Government that asks you to pull your weight.
It must be scary for you to contemplate a living based on your own expertise & competence under a Labor Governments policies.

"""
My guess is that you lot are trembling with fear that we might just get a Government that asks you to pull your weight.
It must be scary for you to contemplate a living based on your own expertise & competence under a Labor Governments policies.
"""

I think you would refer to this paragraph as having hit the nail firmly on the head :)

Parasitic co-dependents are absolutely terrified of self determination.
In their world the doers must look after them. Heaven forbid they should have to do something for themselves.

Individual, Costello did not put anything aside as you say , but in fact sold our assets to portray a temporary surplus, whilst at the same time indulging in pork barrelling, upper middle class welfare, and a shameful neglect of infrastructure and services.

And Garum Marsala , I can only assume that you are new to our country or you would know that in Australian political and economic history, it has been Conservative Gov'ts that have handed Labor Gov'ts basket case economies in need of repair.

During the 2nd World War a conservative Govt abdicated to allow the Labor Party to run the country during the crisis of impending Japanese attack.

As Keating found when handed an economy with galloping unemployment and inflation in the 20%'s by the Fraser/Howard Treasury, it would take 13 yrs to fix. The mantra that proclaims economic prowess for LNP is a myth. For decades, successive LNP Gov'ts that have neglected the public sector and abused assets and as a consequence, have necessitated spending by incoming Labor Gov'ts in order that nations wealth be preserved only to see the toil of that labour, the fruit of that planning, being sold off again by the next incoming Conservative Gov't.

Today they( the LNP ), promote this notion of selling your asset, (before it is even built , in the case of the NBN) and then renting it back off the person you sold it too as good economic policy and even worse advocating "not spending on the future" by instead expecting the private sector to do it. It's like waiting for generosity from a wealthy person. It's like waiting for bank to give you a break.Their economic policy platform consists of an ideological aspiration list at best.

Australia's political and economic history has in fact been like a cat chasing it's tail. Menzies was originally against the Snowy Mountains Scheme , but after a Labor Govt built it, claimed credit for it. One side builds infrastructure the other sells or downgrades it, in a never ending cycle. Doesn't make any sense to me a taxpayer.

P.S. I would like to see some bi-partisansip for the greater good, for a change.

Does the LNP have anyone that can lead them to that outcome, for a change ?.

Hi Thinker 2,
I think Turnbull could do.
But I really doubt that Abbott can.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

thinker2,
I recall a very young Wyatt Roy asking when was the last time a Labor Government provided a surplus. Your hypocritical mates threw him out. I suppose that's one way of avoiding an embarrassing question.
Surely if Keating did such a marvellous job young Wyatt would have been aware of it.

We, all of us past 40, knew a different style of Parliament, it got hot but not like this.
We are duty bound to show some respect, if not for one another then OLO
My medication needs no help bloke, show me the evidence you know better.
Indy, it is my view you, by constantly insulting others, get what you deserve.
Bloke if my understanding is not better than yours, on this or any subject, put me down!
I am deeply concerned, yes about my party, the Gillard faction, and especially those propping her up until they make their move.
But in charging Conservatives with high jacking the Liberal Party, and being a branch of the Republicans, a dreadful charge! American Tea Party Republicanism is the biggest current threat to world peace.
Only anti Labor utterances come from the CONSERVATIVES posing as Liberals?
I know, honestly, in demanding my party change, continue to grow, to defend fairness, and change the intended path, defeat at the next election.
I have damaged my name in my two movements.
A small price to pay, party first, after honesty, I see no such sacrifice from the other side.

I would not get obsessed with having to produce a surplus, what does it do besides not spending money on infrastructure. Pay off your credit card and take 50 billion $ of the national debt. Then get big business to pay cash for their expansions, and that will be another gigantic chunk of the national debt. Any body who owes money is creating the national debt.

I'm curious about this fascination with a surplus.
Of itself, a surplus means little and certainly tells us nothing about the economic health of a country.
In the fifteen years I spent as ceo of medium to large companies in three countries, i can tell you that my boards would have fired me if I had delivered the corporate equivalent of a surplus.
Shareholders would almost certainly have accused me of having a lazy balance sheet.
I'm especially curious as right now Australia's public debt is so low that if we doubled it, Australia would still have among the lowest levels of public debt in the developed world.
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

if I had delivered the corporate equivalent of a surplus.
Anthonyve,
Of course they would. I would too. The difference is that a Government is not a company. Way too many don't think of that. A Government is a regulator, an authority which keeps things in place & ensures a reasonable level playing field. At least a good Government would.
As a CEO how much did you have to fork out for unemployed/unemployables, hospitals, Police, social benefits etc. All those things that cost but do not offer much in return.
I would have thought to become a CEO one would know these things. Going by what you're saying & the way my CEO operates this doesn't appear to be the case.

579,
Not to concerned about a surplus ? Crickey ! It's because Labor squandered the surplus that our registration fees & just about every other Government fee has doubled. It's because Labor squandered the surplus our hospitals & other care services have to tighten their belts so they don't have to lay off their back-bone, the useless bureaucrats. Cops put their life on the line because of shortage of funding & you say a surplus is nothing to crow about ? Are you totally off the rails ?

A surplus would only make for leaner public amenities. That is unused money. Money that is not doing anything for anybody.
The noalition are trying to find 70 billion $ to cover their budget black hole.
Hospitals, education, public service, will all be badly effected with their budget. Plus tax breaks for the 1% which will only make things worse.
We don't pay tax for govt; slush funds., to bring out in emergencies like when there is an election on.

"the corporate equivalent of a surplus" - that being a profit.

I'm not desperate for the government to run a big surplus, that just indicates they are taking too much (and possibly not spending in the right places).

What I really don't want is governments that run up large debts, that take from me and waste it on things that are not important, things other people think are nice to have but not important enough to pay for themselves.

R0bert

I would argue that R0bert has hit it right on the head.
It's what we spend the deficit (borrowings) on that matters.
Here's a business example. John borrow 5MAUD to buy rights to search for oil on a large block of land where he's certain there's oil and it will take five years to explore the entire area.
He budgets for a loss (deficit) of 1MAUD each year for four years.
Is he a poor manager for not achieving a surplus?
No, not if he strikes oil in year 5.
It's what we spend the deficit on that matters, far more than the deficit itself.
Now, in the case of this government we can rightly argue the pros and cons of where the money is going.
If we are conservative we might object to social supports.
If we are to the Left, we might object to reduced taxes for the wealthy.
These are the debates worth having. Not just yes or no to a deficit.
I would also posit that the NBN, which will represent big outgoings in the first few years, (thus contributing to a deficit), but will provide an infrastructure that could generate billions over the next couple of decades, is a well spent component of the deficit.
I also think that stimulating the economy during the GFC in '08 so the country didn't go into recession was also money well spent.
My point is that how the deficit is spent is a far more important debate than whether or not we have one.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/ipad/maiden-tonys-great-big-tax/story-fn6br25t-1226295921746
This link challenges those talking of the carbon tax.
It again highlights the extremism of Tony Abbott.
He says Labor is the party of tax, but proposes this big new tax.
We are told Conservatives will, once the budget is balanced, and only then, introduce a scheme such as Labors.
In relation to disability.
But, without delay, bring in this scatter brained scheme to help the well of have children.
Both sides, soon, must confront population numbers , not promote endless growth.
And both sides are well aware welfare needs another look.
Abbott intends to use the public purse to reward ,with middle class welfare, those who do not need it as much as others.
I think Current rewards for child birth is already giving very bad results and big screen TV not children are often the wish.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/ill-turn-back-every-boat-says-tony-abbott/story-fn59niix-1226249863706
This link too, hardly from the Labor party, highlights an extremist view.
Abbott himself claims a reintroduction of the Howard policy's will work.
If so why this condemning some to death as boats sink, and are sunk deliberately.
Howard did stop the boats.
Australians,a majority,want them stopped .
Abbott can stop them, from opposition, by sitting down and talking.
Yet if not an extreme view, forcing boats to turn around at sea.
Risking our links to Indonesia, Conservatives present a danger to us all.

http://www.menzieshouse.com.au/2011/03/tax-me-tax-me-.html
Barry Spinks/Spindoc in action, not I suspect the only one with hidden links to the party once known as Liberals.
Worth considering, these links all three have some lessons.
As we seemingly head for the election of a Conservative Government, posing as Liberal, have we looked at what we are about to buy.
I note the absence of Shadow Minister here, but maybe not from Menzies house?

If we are conservative we might object to social supports.
Anthonyve,
That is a blatant misconstruing of terms. You are implying that conservatism is about denial.
That is a hypocritical lie.
Conservatism is about being against WASTE !

If we are to the Left, we might object to reduced taxes for the wealthy.
That in turn indicates that the left is a parasitic mentality to go for as much as possible without effort.

I also think that stimulating the economy during the GFC in '08 so the country didn't go into recession was also money well spent.

It certainly doesn't look that way now ! The outfall from that "clever" tactic is huge debt. You think that's great ?

Hi Individual,
First I said, "might" which therefore makes it impossible to be a lie. (It's an English language thing)
Second, if you read a bit of history about conservatism, you will find it has its roots in religious values and stood against change of practically any kind, i.e. conservatism - to conserve, (meaning in this case to preserve the status quo).
This understanding of Conservative roots is not challenged by historians.
Therefore, the idea that conservatism was automatically against waste is a comparatively recent position somewhat amplified by the Tea Partiers in the USA, which has been adopted here in Australia.
There have been periods in British, (from which the Australian Conservative model evolved) and Australian conservative government when it was a high tax/high spend party.
Also in the USA, where taxes were far higher under Reagan than they are now.
Hope that helps with your understanding of the movement you appear to support.
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Indy it is a hard task talking you and I .
Noting you say we, when talking about Conservatives but, like me you are a follower of one side.
We play no part in policy or direction.
I think you should take Anthonyv,s advice, research the history of LIBERALISM.
My use of Conservatism is an insult, but in my view best tells us about the attempt to become a American Republican off shoot.
The links above if followed are informative.
Above all your view of this ALP Government, even with its faults, is one seen from the bottom of a very unclean glass bottle.
Despite the view Labor is evil incompetent and such, the SPIN DOCTORS have fooled many.
And done it well, who defends a party, one that has faults as yours plainly has, because of hatred or dislike of the other side.
And ignores those faults excepts less than the best from that party.

Been interesting, thanks Bonmot, and thanks to Spin doc, nice of you to be so honest, posting a true description of your self.
Parliament returns this week, we will moan about Question time, yet in the main it is as it always was.
Questions aimed at letting Ministers blow their own trumpets.
Oppositions opposing ,even things they agree with.
And using the time to plant seeds of doubt, even known lies.
Abbott will, in an effort to dump his Doctor No Negative brand, send the slightly silly Pyne and Bishop to demand a debate they know will not get up.
But find the exposure useful, and some chooks will fly and squawk about it in any case.
Two leaders, not the first,maybe even second pick of their party faithful,will oppose each other.
If both today found the cleaners elected to their jobs, only the sky rocketing polls, of both party's would be noticed.
We Australians , most off us,will follow the paths set out for us, buying our sides story, jumping on the others.
And not even considering the true paths directions and policy's that we are bound for,as Conservatives Henny Penny the masses into_) betraying them selves.

Morning Belly,

Barry (spindoc) is an 'educated conservative'. There is nothing wrong with this - in and of itself.

However, what is concerning is the increasing shrill of "smart idiots" - described in this essay from Chris Mooney:

http://www.salon.com/2012/02/24/the_ugly_delusions_of_the_educated_conservative/singleton/

Note that in the article, the term "liberal" is used in the US sense and equates to Australia's "Labor", or progressive. Not the increasingly 'Tea-Party-esque' Australian Liberal conservative.

Closer to 'home', I was interested in the research findings of Dan Kahan et al (mentioned in the article) who has been studying the relationship between political views, scientific knowledge, reasoning abilities, and opinions on scientific issues like global warming.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1871503&http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1871503

I agree Belly, it's been interesting - and is about to get even more so : )

My regards and thanks Bonmot, no problem in again high lighting my lack of a formal education.
And just maybe it has been my greatest asset in my whole life.
The hunger to learn has taken me to interesting places.
Will look at the links but yes Labor is the true Liberal party in this country.
Not always so, we once prided our selves with being the permanent opposition and the best one this country ever had.
A time not far a head will test our country, but it has always been so.
All those Monday mornings election over and Conservatives won,again, the don't blame me I voted Labor, often a lie.
Ahead fueled by much the same infamous apathy lays a government few will want.
I however have nothing against spin doc, never agreed with him, but he may not be the only one paid to spin who visits here.
We are getting weary of politics and politicians, and that is in part because of spin lies and strangely those who use that tool are about to be victim to it too.
Note the absence again of our biggest spinning top Shadow Minister.
Had the thread offered a chance to slander Labor it would have been different.

Belly, what I was trying to convey is that even some people who are 'educated' are not as 'intelligent' as they would have us believe. In fact, as Kahan showed, it seems that their 'inteligence' is inversley proportional to their 'education'.

Some of my best friends have not been 'educated' Belly - and some have more 'intelligence' than some of my closest colleagues who have been. But none who have followed truth have deliberately chosen to cover their eyes, block their ears and shout to the world everybody else has got it wrong when they should know better. Ergo, like the "smart idiots" of the world.

Where politics is concerned Belly, I am more centrist. Unfortunately, I see the actions of some that are driving Australian politics more to the 'right' and more to the 'left' - and never the two shall meet.
Pox on them all.

Shadow and spindoc? You could well be right.

Belly and bonmot,

More and "better" education doesn't necessarily guarantee increased rationality or intelligence. It often only furnishes a person with the intellectual tools to confirm their bias and the eloquence to disseminate their misconception - so much so, it seems, that those with the qualifications relevant to certain fields are dismissed, shouted down and generally disdained as "frauds" by the intelligent amateurs who are often only protecting their piece of the pie.

bonmot - I get where you're coming from on Aussie politics - dismal, indeed.

Bonmot haveing read the links I have always known point one to be true.
Have not delved in to the climate change one yet just skipped over it.
But while willing to say both sides lie I think action is called for.
Poirot, not able to agree with your whole view.
First my though on education is not about if higher or just primary.
I think in terms of no education or wrong education.
Education for over half the worlds poorest is very minimal, in some cases trapping as sure as any prisoner them in the middle ages.
You can if you look, often tell a conservative just by looking, try it its fun.
Not the overly fat real estate agents but the women and men on the street.
Now what is so bad about mining tax, planned disability fix?, saying sorry, carbon tax.
A great deal of change, true change has been achieved, in a difficult time.
I am truly honestly sorry, but in getting that done, while in the clutches of Doctor No, and your Greens,Labor has done well.
Bonmot in truth the nearest a government will ever get to perfection is a centrist one.
I want my party, believe my party will return to that position.
Conservatisms, once Liberals, once had that dream.

One of Bonmot links showed us that some Americans [Republican Tea Party] think the President is not American.
Small matter? no big one so very stupid but in a country known to increasingly be hearing such tripe.
Not just there here and every place research has found some of us are born to be Conservatives,Liberals, Labor or what ever.
And that it is unlikely we will be other.
Yet history tells us some do change, look at Big Mal of the lost trousers, did he change as well as his party racing to the right, I think yes to both.
As almost all of us ask how did politics fall this low,and blind our selves to the fact we let it, can belief in our party and only our party blind us to truth.
For far too many yes!
If some how we could here a private conversation between Sir Robert Menzies the founder of Liberal Party, and John Howard, two men like it or not who held the electorate in their hands.
And both I would fight till the death still, but with a respect for both.
And the subject, in private was Tony Abbott, I think the mans true nature would be sadly reflected on by both,to put it mildly, both would not let him clean their boots.

Question time was interesting today, 3 opposition one government member sent to the sin bin.
Just maybe this bloke, not a fan, is not going to be a push over.
Government Ministers sat down, not for the first time.
Noted from his first day in the chair a few Government Ministers, including she who must be obeyed, keep talking after being asked to stop.
May see some in the sin bin.
Sorry but Abbott as is his usual asked or had asked, questions that went no place.
Hockey,once one issue away from the Job Abbott has, is as far away from it now as I am.
Honestly, truly, this Abbott front bench is not much more than squawking sea gulls fighting over a chip that has been eaten by one long gone.

All the opposition is interested in is any bits of dirt laying around. They do not have anything that benefits Australia as a whole.
You could almost say question time was being treated in a way, that the time is wasted by the opposition.
Questions from school kids could be better directed.
Big Joe's question, received a verbal bashing, but he was satisfied.
Abbott with his twisted ideas, and ragged bunch of would-be ministers, don't seem to have any conscience.

579 a worth while read in a feature story in todays Sydney morning Herald.
It with some basis makes the claim both sides are betraying us, self interest before Nation.
I have much more to say about Conservatives and Republican clones.
But would like to spotlight again a reason we are in such trouble.
Greens followers, I TRULY AM SORRY.
My intention is not to hurt your team, just tell it as I see it.
Bob Browns team are looking like stopping a basic tax reform of the mining tax.
Here, in that move, is a small rock, under a big one, threatening the stability of the whole.
That rock, could, maybe should, rock its way over the edge and bring down a plan and a government.
That little rock, not Representative of public opinion is about to side with Conservatives to block a basic.
In doing so it helps Conservatives, adds to public perceptions it is controlling and, turn more against Labor.
I am afraid of the future, short term, but know Labor will not be out of office long.
Conservatives are a water color add written on the thinest rice paper, about to be rained on.
But to ensure that? greens should not be considered other than assistants to Conservatives.
Yes confronting stuff.
But look deeper with no greens we would have stable government and maybe no hung Parliament.

Most mature Australians both young and old, support Abbott for one good reason.
He will restore the budget to surplus,get the unemployed jobs by stimulation ,rather than,labor's job creation of public service stargazers.
Good on ya Abbott.

Mr no has already said there will be no stimulation. The noalition are not good for young people. Look up the meaning of conservatism.
Mr Abbott is again practicing his no skills today, with no tax cuts.

BROCK you are kidding right.
MOST Australians.
Do you see like Gillard, his personal popularity rating, and those disliking them, say ,clearly, not even every supporter of their party want them.
You have used an Abbott tactic in your post.
He today, in question time, read Hansard, said EVERY ILLEGAL GUN IN Australia, was smuggled here.
He inferred EVERY GUN used in the Sydney Biker Middle east gang drive by wars, was, it is know, rifles bought legally here are in police custody from that gutless war.
And yes a Conservatives far different than a true Liberal.
Abbott however will indeed go, post the American election, after a Tea Party flop.

It's a generalisation I know .but BROCK'S post is a prime example of the herd mentality that exists among the young. Abbott has tapped into this.

This mentality is illustrated by the fact that the post is factually and diabolically incorrect and at the same time expressed with vehement fervour.

It is truly scary. I fear for the future.

How can you be so exactly wrong BROCK.

Abbott himself professes the opposite to your post, with the possible exception of his claims about surpluses.

Just exactly "how" would Abbott stimulate and perform these miracles of which you speak. By telling us to work more for less reward for our own good perhaps?. Or advise us to have more faith in god and big business ?.

Either position leaves the individual with even less power of self determination, less capacity for economic security, regardless of whether people are employed by the public or private sector.

I think it's Denmark that leads the world in per capita wealth and possess a publicly/ Gov't owned future fund of its own that currently has over $ 730 billion dollars in it.

A mainly socialist democracy, Denmark has been able to preserve its wealth and not allow the privatisation to destroy public access to essential services, at the same time have shown, that productivity and co-operation count, not the confrontational style, coloured by threats of reversal of Gov't policy tactic portrayed by people like Abbott.

If you want waste, think about spending money on important public infrastructure like the NBN and then seeing it trashed by an incoming Abbott Gov't.

It's good and expensive bits " like the cost of regional connection " that will have been built, so big business will suddenly become interested in doing the rest because the bits the private sector didn't want to spend their money on, have been funded by the taxpayer.

This is why Australia's retained wealth per person is a tenth of that of Denmark, because every time we do something for our good, conservative Gov'ts we elect sell or downgrade the asset. cont...

cont...

The NBN will pay for itself because we will be in a position to sell our product to the private sector in the end.

The mining profits tax will bring revenue in immediately, and instead of giving our resources to miners to sell for us for no share of the increasing profit margins, we can sell our resources to them. As it should be.

An Abbott tenure would be the final disaster for Australia, because we we don't really have anything left that is ours except our resources, and he won't tax theirs profits. This we do know BROCK !.

Having said that who in the end will pay for fact that the Abbott Gov't will have no source of revenue, (like a mining profits tax) it will be the taxpayer that in the end pays again, and the cycle continues.

Nope cant see anything stimulating there BROCK.

Thinker 2 I am unsure of your age, but todays politics resembles those of 1975.
A list growing longer every day seems to exist of those upset with my views.
I know former mates,still so in my view,from the party and union are unhappy with me.
And some here are too.
Many BROCK'S exist, on election day, if confronted by Abbott, some will return to Labor.
At such times, only in such times, greens prosper.
But believe me, we are doomed.
A few band aids over the dreadful Rudd war, on wounds inflicted by Gillards assassins, shot us, in both feet.
Power brokers insult the intelligence of us all, with the view we will forget in a few months.
Fear?
No no need the incoming Conservative party,will gift us government after it gets its DD election.
Our return comes after that, one they win greens suffer badly.
And its fall will deliver the party they took over back to Liberals, trust me, while average Aussie has his/her back turned to Conservatives true nature it will not last.

Question time today once more became a circus.
Was it the 43rd time? Abbott went for extra time to talk, by putting up that standing orders be stood a side.
He, as has been the case all week, knew he would fail, not gaining support but seeing it rumble out the door for bad/dreadful behavior.
4 or was it 5 of his team in the sin bin, one Labor Minister too, it could have been three.
The flea Circus continued, Abbott as ring master in his usual form, staying as remote as he could from truth.
We could have seen debate about real problems.
But as government Ministers answered questions, then supplementary from the same questioner.
Abbott's circus performed like Jungle monkeys on the other side.
Christopher Pyne in his usual was as red with rage I truly thought he may have a heart attack, fine acting Sir.
Indonesian defense and foreign affairs met our same and spoke just before the dark question time.
Just think, in government Tony Abbott has promised.
To turn every boat back!
CONSERVATIVE? murder on the high seas more likely.

Belly I get your drift about 1975. There are parallels with now. The media is purposefully and under instruction from Media owners, providing misleading political coverage the LNP opposition are in league with them again.

In those days the the LNP were most probably also in league with a foreign power or 2 in the devising of a plan to unseat or derail a reformist Labor Gov't as well. That could also be so today.

But there is an opposite now Belly, in that the herd mentality of today was not possible then because the youth of those times were politically informed by real coverage of war for example.

Today the youth have a political instinct honed by imbedded journalism. Youth then, did have an education that provided history and therefore historical context. Today all one has to do is press the emotive buttons, even if it bears no resemblance whatsoever to reality.
Abbott has honed this to an art form.

In 75, big money and the Coalition eventually won the battle then, by means most fowl.

The youth of the day was dead against that and wanted to retain the Whitlam Gov't. Only 3 yrs earlier, the same Whitlam Gov't had been instrumental in ending the Vietnam War and ending conscription in our country. The young then, were in favour of these things. Political protest then, was en masse. Today it is reduced to a few hundred bare chested youths draped Eureka Stockade flags for all the wrong reasons.

However I do believe (and it's comforting to think this for me) that the young are voting Green, showing that progress as always still comes from our youth. After all it is naturally their future we are talking about now.

On the political side Belly I would rather see Labor do some of the things the Greens want to do, like including gold in the mining tax, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen from either side. Leaving me leaning Green. This is where the Labor vote is drifting too, certainly not to the Coalition.

thinker 2 what I say about greens is not to hurt you or them.
It is not out of fear of them, but fear of what they can do, to all anti Conservative forces.
IMPOSING minority views on this country is, in the end, destroying the left of center, for a time.
Lets take boat people and refugees.
Your view will be, in my opinion onshore processing.
Boats never stop costs to us,tax payers, diverted from things like health and education are in the billions.
Right now Conservatives are flogging the ALP on this issue.
Both greens,and Abbott's Rabbits prosper by the discontent generated.
Yet both, BETRAY AUSTRALIANS.
Most want it to end, want to be told the costs of this refusal to stop the boats.
The private members bill,letting us send refugees to ANY COUNTRY that is part of the Bali group.
If they agree, sets out a solution, one that links us to a regional answer, and stops the boats.
Tell me thinker 2, how can you be other than unhappy that Greens dance with Conservatives on this issue.
And tell me truly, are you aware while your team grows from its NEGATIVITY it strengthens the hostility MOST have for it.
Government should ideally be by consensus.
This issue surely, must be fixed not used to win points to defies the wishes of the most.
My Labor colleges, will be deeply hurt,but if Abbott wins, then calls a DD election, bank on it, if Labor has not confronted by then the anti greens feelings.
Abbott will have total control in both houses,all party's serving democracy must confront the greens.
Abbott wants to turn the boats around,but look at greens , see who else stands behind deaths at sea.