David

I am sure this thread is probably one of the most important threads on this forum

I just wish the others would read it because it could change their kids lives.

Your words of wisdom however will go as far as their own background. Those raised with some good old fahioned principles will agree.

Those who allow screaming little brats to rule the home wont.
There is a balance with love and understanding between parents and child.

The good old fashioned copper that would give you a kick up the bum and send you home. Wasnt so much crime in those days either.

Just some food for thought.

Thank You David for being around it does!! makes a difference.

Dear Taryn...ur most welcome :)

Rob
your comments are also appreciated. I sense though that you were blessed with 'nice kids' :) probably a reflection of their parents.
I don't think as yet you have met the 'Strong Willed Child'...evidently you did not have them.

I recall two doctors, the wife especially had a volatile and intense temperement. The son inherited hers, and the daughter inherited his more placid personality.

I can guarantee with complete confidence that nothing in this world would have stopped that little boy other than a decent whack.

Whacking is not always the answer I totally agree. When a nephew of mine spat in the face of my children day after day, and my patience wearing thinner and thinner and my kids saying DAD.. CAN YOU MAKE HIM STOP ! and his parents saying 'We have tried EVerything, including smacking' but nothing seemed to work.

I solved that problem in about 2 days. I didn't smack, I DID use negative re-inforcement though. If an ingrained negative behavior occurs, which is dangerous, destructive (to self or others) you have an obligation to the child and the victims to DO something quick....which works. It is impossible to rely only on 'positive' re-inforcement of good behavior and ignore negative.

I guess your approach would be 'sure..use negative re-inforcemnt and aversion principles, but just don't smack them'?

I disagree....in SOME (but not all) cases, smacking is the only workable solution. But "smacking" is just code for aversion therapy. There are many possibilities. A child uses foul language..
a) Warn them about it. Explain it is hurtful.?
b) Warn them and punish them with isolation "Goto your room")?
c) Distract them, reward them for good language ?
d) When all of the above fail...wash the mouth out with soap ?

Value your response.

Rob your comments are also appreciated. I sense though that you were blessed with 'nice kids' I don't think as yet you have met the 'Strong Willed Child'...evidently you did not have them.

I dont know what sense you used but my kids were both clinically hyperactive.

"When a nephew of mine spat in the face of my children day after day"

This raises the issue I mentioned in my first post - people do not think of applying discipline until there is a breach. It is why I specifically used the word 'training' because this child should have been trained from a v early age that spitting is not acceptable and then this breach situation would never have arisen.

"'We have tried EVerything, including smacking' but nothing seemed to work."

I think the admission that smacking did not work says a great deal. The justification on the basis of efficacy is flimsy indeed. Smacking is often a sign of desperation by the parent. It is a great pity that people feel the need to justify smacking rather than simply admit they were at their wits end.

But just as people can be at their wits end with a dog that wont stop barking - a few simple days training from someone who knows the techniques can resolve a problem that has been going on for years. We have all seen 'Dr Harry' solutions (in the promos anyway) - I really want to get away from condemnation of people who smack - it is not bad parents it is only bad parenting and that simply requires learning some appropriate techniques. To simply ban smacking without any backup is ridiculous - it is taking away the only tool many parents have and many studies have shown that children who are smacked and loved do much better than children who are not smacked but not loved either.

PART 2 - Sorry I got caught by the word-counter:
"It is impossible to rely only on 'positive' re-inforcement of good behavior and ignore negative. I guess your approach would be 'sure..use negative re-inforcemnt and aversion principles, but just don't smack them'?"

I feel that the positive re-enforcement only approach is v weak and entirely unnecessary - in fact I do not even necessarily disagree with a smack in every case. The issue is the child's resilience - it is extremely easy for someone who is twice the height of a child and 4 times their weight to exceed the child's resilience in delivering physical disincentives.

Of course appropriate alternative techniques depend on the age of the children, eg when the children were coming into adolescent and money was v important to them I posted their pocket money on the fridge in white board marker - if all their chores were done they received full pocket money if not they were docked. I never entered into an argument over it - they knew the rules and I never let them see me rub the marks out. When their chores were done - the marks just as mysteriously reappeared - they understood v quickly how it worked. In fact on day I came home and my son was raking the yard - which was not one of his chores - I asked him why he was doing it and he said, 'I'm going out with my friends this weekend and I could really use some extra pocket-money.' He extrapolated the system to pretty much mimic the way adult life works - I thought it was a good methodology rather than simply asking for more so he got his extra.

"I disagree....in SOME (but not all) cases, smacking is the only workable solution."
Again this approach starts AFTER the transgression - 'training' begins at a very early age and is continuous so that it is not a question of how to deal with the transgressions but preventing the transgressions from ever occuring.

Good comments Rob but also a bit idealistic I feel. The time to 'train' as you say.. in the midst of a busy/hectic/paying off the mortgage/social obligation/sick when you least want to be/ etc etc...
sometimes all the good intent flies out the window.

We actually did use the jobs/pocket money system for a while, and it does have some effect. But family life is dynamic...not always the same leeway to use 'structured learning'.

I feel the best solution to this is for mothers to remain home doing this, and fathers to be bread winners and part time helpers in raising the kids. At least until the children are of a 'trained and independant' age :)

Our current system of 2 hard working possibly stressed and tired parents coming home to rowdy kids, who may well be so because of lack of parental attention, is not conducive to the 'training' structure you suggest.

Hyper active ? thats different from 'strong willed':) you can chanel 'energy and activity' but its most difficult to steer a 'strong willed' child, where the actual ussue is 'power' and who runs the show.

Yes...I'm glad you are moving away from 'condemning' smacking parents and that you made the point about the resilience of the child.. we usually know our kids and if we truly love them we are not going to harm them. Smacking appropriately is not abuse. As u said.. the kids know the rules and if one of them is "If you do that.. you will get a painful reminder" they do 'that' full well knowing what is coming.

The painful reminder can also be a stint in 'solitary' :) and we have used that a fair bit too. Smacking is something I rarely used. Facial expression, voice tone and temporary ostracization can and do work as well.

I just reject the 'political' pressure from small groups of power hungry social trendies to prevent something that did me no harm and my children, and that 90% of us agree with.

im a adolecent and i get smaked. i belive smaking is ok ...as a last resort. the first thing i would do is sit the child down and expalain what they did was wrong and why it is wrong then explain what would happen if they did it again and then ask them to apologise. only after a third warning would i smack the child

rizz