Recently a Minister in the WA Government was randomly attacked while visiting Northam. To drive through Northam, you would think it was sleepy hollow. It is only 40 minutes from the outskirts of Perth. Unfortunately tribalism is at work. The academics will blame the whitey's but the truth is they have nothing to do with this nonsense except to be the rescuers of those in danger. When will the aboriginal community take responsibility for their disgusting behaviour?

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/fire-bombs-see-feud-turn-ugly-in-northam/story-e6frg143-1226262948982.

Runner didn't god make all people equal. You can get knocked around in any street, and not a blackfella in sight.

...A fine example of family unity and loyalty, nice to see it in action once in a while runner; that also was “once” the Australian way!

Why should the rest of the Aboriginal community own the behaviour of the few bad eggs involved in the Northam incident Runner?

Do you own the bad behaviour of everyone else from your' ethnic group?

Dear Runner,

A little forensics if we may.

Lets start with the random attack on a Minister Terry Redman. He was mixed up in a brawl at the Shamrock Hotel that started after a teenage Aboriginal lad was set upon by a couple of rather burly 'whiteys' although from the footage it does appear the second brother is trying to pull the first off the lad.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/review-of-police-response-after-mp-redman-attacked/story-e6frg12c-1226202385363

Some of the lad's relatives obviously took exception to his roughing up and sought to settle the manner. The Minister was at the wrong place at the wrong time and was caught up in the fracas.

Should the law have been taken into their own hands in either the first of second instances? Of course not, but it happened and to paint it as just some random attack when it patently wasn't is dishonest.

I'm not an academic but on this occasion I'm happy to place the blame for starting this at the whitey's feet. As to tribalism if you have ever been in a bar fight runner I have to tell you there has been more than one instance when I have been pleased to have tribalism on my side.

Cont..

Susie

'Why should the rest of the Aboriginal community own the behaviour of the few bad eggs involved in the Northam incident Runner?'

This is not an isolated incident and it is insulting to call these people a few bad eggs. You can divert attention from this problem by pointing out bad behaviour by other groups but it is really a hollow denial tactic. This behaviour is not uncommon to varying degrees in many towns in NSW, QLD and WA. Just ask the Police Commissioner of WA who is honest enough to tell the truth.

How can their ever be reconciliation until the tribal and family groups get along together. Yes their is much bad behaviour with all people groups but I don't see gangs of 8 or 9 year old white kids running around with axes and machettes. Your denial of the problem adds far more to the problem than those who would like to see a solution. Have you ever lived in a street with this kind of behaviour? I certainly have and it is not pleasant.

Cont..

So to the town and shire of Northam. What do the stats say?

There are nearly twice the percentage of indigenous folk in the shire compared to the rest of WA and over 50% of these are under the age of 18.

It is in the bottom third of the SEFIA index of social disadvantage for the state. The median weekly income is $383 compared to $500 for the rest of the state. Nearly twice the average in public housing and with an unemployment rate of 7% compared to 5% for WA.

Yet when we look at the indicators for things stereotypically laid at the feet of young indigenous people we see something interesting. Residential burglaries are nearly half that of the state average, 4.8 per 1000 compared to 9.2, and the same is true for car thefts, 1.3 to 2.6. All drug offence categories are also significantly lower than average.

That isn't to say there are not indicators showing a community with serious social challenges, both non-aggravated assault and property damage are notably higher. Some of it is evidenced by the feuding families. 

So who are the main offenders? It turns out the highest proportion are non-indigenous males aged 20-29 and they represent nearly five times the number of indigenous men offending from the same age bracket. That is where you need to focus your efforts runner if you are so concerned about the good folk of Northam.

So my question to you runner when will you “take responsibility for their disgusting behaviour?”

Runner, I fail to see what is 'insulting' about calling people who bash others bad eggs? What would you call them?

I don't like violent people from any race or creed, but unlike many do-gooders, I don't blame anyone else but the violent people for their own actions.

Have you visited a Prison in WA. Some of the Regionals have up to 90% indigeneous when their populations are around 15%. You can manipulate all you like but the only ones you are fooling are those that want to remain blind to epidemic problems amoung many (not all) young indigeneous people. Speak to a few people who live in these towns many of them Maori or African and you might learn a little bit of fact instead of twisting stats to keep you blind.

Dear runner,

Facts?

Let us look at how you treat facts. The tagline of the article you linked to reads "CHILDREN as young as 11 took to the streets of Northam last night armed with weapons as a family feud turned violent."

Under your pen that referenced as; "I don't see gangs of 8 or 9 year old white kids running around with axes and machettes".

Why shouldn't readers assess your thread as an agenda driven beat up when you are so inclined to hype the facts to suit?

That there are serious issues within some indigenous communities is undeniable but which are attributable to the type of disadvantage that can afflict any Australian community?

If you are not about to apologize to the Aboriginal community for McQuarrie Fields then you shouldn't be asking the same from them for two feuding families in Northam.

To me this is a law and order issue including a fair distribution of resources.

I see csteele you now reveal yourself as part of the guilt industry

'If you are not about to apologize to the Aboriginal community for McQuarrie Fields then you shouldn't be asking the same from them for two feuding families in Northam. '

You are blaming barbaric behaviour of young kids in 2012 on what happened 200 years ago. No wonder we are no closer to any solutions. Can't say I am really surprised.

income is $383 compared to $500 for the rest of the state.
csteele,
Is that for labourers or tradespeople ?

Dear runner,

I'm not blaming anything on anything.  Perhaps my misspelling may have caused some confusion. Let's try the Cronulla riots. I had several indigenous friends who expressed serious concern at the racist mob violence that occurred. Would you be willing to apologize to them on behalf of the white community?

Dear individual, 

That my friend was obviously an average, particularly since any of the labourers I employ on site seem to take home nearly what I do on any job. Tradesmen, especially self employed, don't earn that much more but the system allows them to pay far less tax so they are doing okay.

They might be cheaper where you come from but not here.

csteele

I think you know the Cronulla 'riots'were a result of 'white sluts' being raped and the unwillingness of the Police due to fear and political correctness in dealing with the out of control Lebanese community. I do not endorse the response by the larikin section of the white population although it is somewhat undertstandable. Family feuds among the aboriginals seem to go on for generations and the whole population suffer especially if you live near by. Their is no leadership to deter this abhorent behaviour just like their wasn't any leadership in the Lebanese community. The white response was unfortunate in Cronulla but somewhat envitable.

runner,

So the "white" response to unrest and animosity is "unfortunate" and "somewhat inevitable"...while the indigenous and Lebanese response (according to you) ranges between "abhorrent" and "out of control".

What point exactly are you trying to make?

Are you just tsk, tsking, or have you any "helpful" commentary to offer?

Poirot
THe Cronulla 'riots 'were a one off unfortunate event. Young and not so young aboriginals acting like barbarians in streets where people live is a lot more common. What don't you inderstand about that.

runner,

There are also plenty of young and not so young "white" people who act like barbarians in streets where people live.

Your helpful commentary is?

Runner <"THe Cronulla 'riots 'were a one off unfortunate event."

Oh I don't know about that Runner, I think you must have a short memory.

Bikie gang members are predominantly 'white', and I seem to recall many violent acts committed by them.

The worst mass murders in our recent Australian history were all committed by 'white' people if I recall... such as the Port Arthur massacre.

I really don't think us 'whities' can come the high and mighty with our Indigenous people, when the drug trade and their related deaths are much more prevalent in non-Aboriginal society, don't you?

I have Irish relatives who remarked that the riots at Cronulla reminded them of the fairly recent feuds between the Catholics and Protestants on the streets of Northern Ireland during the 'troubles'.
Only it was much more violent in Northern Ireland,
... among all those religious, white males...

Suzie whilst I agree with most of that last post there does appear to be significant ethnic factors at play in the outlaw bikie gangs (although a lot used to not allow non white members).

As an example http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1014115/ethnic-overtones-in-bikie-wars

Bryant was one very sick individual and his actions do not in my view represent values of those he grew up with.

None of this stuff is neatly packaged, there are subgroups within larger groupings who create some of the broader images of those groupings by coming to our attention.

We won't notice so much all the indigenous people with an education and a job just going about their lives but may well notice those in a group involved in acts of violence on TV.

The numbers of white people involved in criminal activity won't so easily outweigh all those around us who are not doing that stuff so perceptions are not as impacted.

R0bert

Susie

Bikie gangs are predoninantly white and are a huge problem however I don't see 9 or 10 year old riding Harlies and causing havoc. Bikies have adopted tribal thinking so their are some similarities.

Some of you people are a joke. I was staying out of this, I really did not want to bring this up, but I can't stand the do-gooders blind garbage.

My daughter has been transferred to Darwin for 12 months.

After a month there she shipped back her convertible, [12 years old, that I gave her for her 21St 4 years ago], because she was not game to drive it in quite a lot of Darwin.

That cost $1600, not a minor cost when setting up a new home. She had to buy another car as well, so this was not done lightly.

It appears we don't hear about the number of car hijacks & attempted hijacks by the aboriginal community there. They now carry sharp knives, to slash hoods, which makes convertibles an easier target.

What will it take to get through your thick skulls the fact that the namby pamby treatment of aboriginal criminals, promoted by you people, is breeding a really nasty bunch, in many places, & it is spreading.

She was the bleeding heart of the family, but just 10 weeks up there has changed her attitude completely.

Why don't some of you go up there for a month of intensive ideological education?

Hasbeen,

It much less expensive and more insightful to glean an "ideological education" from some choice posters on OLO.

Incidentally, we have two indigenous families living nearby. They don't stand out at all, just living and earning a living like the rest of us...children spruce in school uniforms in the mornings, playing in their yards in the afternoons...etc, etc.

I must remember to drop in and remind them that they're not conforming to "type."

They might be cheaper where you come from but not here.
csteele,
over here they don't get out of bed for that, literally.

Dear Hasbeen,

This 'do-gooder' lived in Nightciff, a suburb of Darwin for two and a half years. I will admit the last time I was there was nearly seven years ago so it may well have changed for the worse but that is not what I am hearing from the people I know who live there.

How long have you spent there?

I have not spent any time in Northam in Western Australia, nor visited the street which is the subject of this thread, or am I to assume the topic is really about indigenous people where ever they live?

That's right, Poirot, it's possible. Aboriginal people don't have to act like thugs. It doesn't have to be part of their modern culture. Employment (and the necessary education for it) make a lot of difference.

Suse, why do you believe that

' ..... the drug trade and their related deaths are much more prevalent in non-Aboriginal society .... ' ?

Down here in SA, drugs - these days marijuana heads, Speed and Ice seem to be favourites - are very pervasive in the welfare-dependent Indigenous community. I don't know any working Indigenous people who are drug-dependent but certainly it is common among the non-working population, for whom life seems to sometimes be pretty casual.

I remember one young guy joking to me after his mate rolled his car one night, that he had been taking his passenger, from a rival family, and pretty drunk, out into the bush (to near where they grew most of their dope) to kill him and bury him. Police found a shovel and other stolen property, including special tools from a nearby dairy farm, in his boot. The driver badly injured his back but the passenger walked away back home, not necessarily in a straight line. Big joke.

Cheers,

Joe

It becomes very apparent that many are more interested in their ideology than reality. I have had the unfortunate and very unusual (according to our ' éxperts ') experience of having my sons car stolen, a large rock put through my window, women beaten senseless in my yard. Many others who certainly are not of my faith have experienced similar and sometimes worse things. We must all be wrong that this family feuding, tribalism and irresponsible behaviour is far to common. Someone quotes that they have aboriginal neighbours who live 'white ' man's way and that proves that not all aboriginals live that way. Well no one ever said that all aboriginals live that way but far to many do. Maybe all the people who refuse to invest or buy houses within a street of an aboriginal occupiede house are just racist even know they are happy to live next to Africans, Asians or Europeans. It seems those who come overseas soon learn from mthe whites how to be racist. I wonder why.

I must admit it was quite amusing to see the Pollies have to put up with the angry mob including young kids on Australia day. Maybe they might wake up to the fact that their is a problem beside the leftist rubbish mantra that Aussies re all racist. They experienced a small amount of what many have to put up with regularly.

I have lived and worked as a nurse in Darwin, Geraldton and Derby in Western Australia, and have also been working with Indigenous people in Perth city as well, so I have a fair amount of experience in dealing with some of their issues.

I am not saying that criminals among Aboriginal people should not be treated exactly like criminals among any other ethnic group.
Violence should not be tolerated by anyone.

Juvenile criminals of all ethnic groups seem to get away with far too much, with just a smack on the hand.
I wasn't aware that it was just juvenile Aboriginal kids being let off at all?

What I am trying to say is that we should be concentrating on the justice system as a whole, and not just target one ethnic group.
They should all be treated just the same by the law.

Banging up all and sundry in jail 'forever' is not going to be financially viable though is it? And who would want to work in jails where prisoners all have no hope of release? Think about it.

What would you suggest is the answer then Runner and Hasbeen?

It is interesting how the media has treated the two stories. According to Chantelle Garnett, a resident of the house that was attacked, the police did nothing to stop the attack. She claims they sat there while armed members from the rival family walked past their police car down the street to her residence. An hour and a half after things had got totally out of control reinforcements arrive.

The headline? "Kids caught in vicious family feud"

When the Minister was caught up in the hotel brawl there was a squad car there in 1 minute and reinforcements in 3 minutes. 

Yet what was the headline on this occasion? "Call to review of police response after MP Terry Redman attacked".

My question is why is there no review of the police response in the first incident since the simple facts as presented certainly indicate the need for one?

A few years back the patrons of my drinking hole in our small country town were forced to take shelter while an ejected drinker took to all the windows with an axe, hurling abuse and threats. Luckily no one was hurt and after a quick police response scant mention of it was made in the local paper, but if he had been aboriginal I'm sure the likes of runner would have helped make it a far bigger story.

Kind of telling one would have thought.

Dear runner,

Do you think socio-economic disadvantage has any part to play in the issues facing some indigenous communities?

Where do you think the government might do better in this regard?

Do you think the privateering thieves who strip money from projects designed to address aboriginal disadvantage should be jailed?

Susi and Csteele

You both ask what I think the answers should be. I wish I knew. I certainly believe however that pretending that it is the fault of the Europeans is simply a cop out. In Northam some family members were on the news criticizing Police for not stopping petrol bombs being thrown, not taking the machettes off young kids and for allowing this to happen. No responsibility at all was taken by those involved in the riot. I visited one man recently who had Í hate pigs' tatooed all over him. That about sums up the attitude of to many aboriginals who quickly ring the Police when they are being beaten and then turn on them.

Government could do better by stop listening to the aboriginal industry and the academics who can't see past the dogmas they have been pushing for 50 years. I know the wider community would not accept nearly as much violence, vandalism and chaos from other parts of society. For whatever reason we accept this behaviour as normal in many parts of the country. Dare I say far more children need to be saved from totally dysfunctional families where abuse, drugs, revenge and violence are a part of every day life.

Ultimately I think the only answers lie with Aboriginal leadership although so much of it is corrupt and rotten to the core. Men like Noel Pearson who has the runs on the board needs to be listened to.

Actually Suse I'm right with you.

The "Aboriginal" problem is actually a bleeding heart problem. They have somehow got far too much influence, probably because the slap on the hand is cheaper than suitable correction for kids off the rails.

By letting minor criminal youth off with that slap however we are breading a large criminal class, of all ethnicity, who have no respect for anyone, or any one's property.

This of course leads to ethnic gangs, of usually welfare dependent youth. Obviously in areas where the majority of welfare dependent people are aboriginal, they will form the majority of the gangs.

Then we get magistrates scared of the black deaths in custody cry, & these gang members get away with far too much. Their trouble making becomes major, & life threatening, & it is actually our fault. Not for something Europeans did 200 years ago, but because of what we let our law enforcement degrade to.

The only way we can stop the slide is the ton of bricks approach, at the very first display of antisocial behaviour. If this has to include 10 year olds, do it. The kids have no chance under the permissive system today & anyone over 50 knows they did much better years ago. The first ton of bricks should of course be dropped on the bleeding hearts, to get them out of the picture, & give the kids a chance.

Giving the cops some steel toed boots, & permission to use them, as they did with all the "bad" kids in my country town of my youth, would be a good starting point.

What would you suggest is the answer then
Suzeonline,
There is only one answer, instill discipline ! No if's n'buts, full Stop !
Bring back the slap !
Introduce Non-military National Service.
Be tougher at sentencing on serious offences.
Do that & you'll have an improved society in two years.

Dear runner, 

I asked earlier "Do you think the privateering thieves who strip money from projects designed to address aboriginal disadvantage should be jailed?" and I didn't get an answer.

I will be more specific.

I had heard less than half of the money directed toward aboriginal disadvantage actually gets to the coal face but some of your lot can get even greedier.

Take the Christian charity Many Rivers Micro Finance run by former Hillsong CEO Leigh Colemen. Of the over 1.3 million dollars it had given to it to provide micro finance to indigenous individuals to give them a chance of breaking out of the cycle of disadvantage only $300,000 was ever offered for loans. The rest was syphoned up by some very greedy snouts. In his defense Colemen said it cost $250,000 to put a worker into the field. I guarantee the one that they did employ was paid under $60,000.

What a scam some of these characters are though he probably learnt from the best.

These are the types I want to see behind bars now. They, in my opinion, are the true parasites of the 'Aboriginal Industry' and they need to see some swift justice.

Don't you agree?

http://www.news.com.au/national/ex-hillsong-executive-leigh-coleman-and-charity-many-rivers-microfinance-under-investigation/story-e6frfkvr-1226116537222

This is rife.

csteele

should this 'charity ' be guilty of fraud or mismanagement they should be held accountable like any other organisation. I am not sure why you cherry picked this organisation seen billions have been wasted with nothing to show over the last few decades. You sound like those who constantly refers to the Catholic church about their child abuse problems. You forget that their are numerous other organisations and people just as guilty. Why are you not focusing on where most of the money went? Have you ever visited aboriginal communities or are you just finding bits of information that you feel supports your dogma?

Wherever their is Government funding especially under Labour you find massive waste. What this has to do with the culture that seems to endorse 10 year old kids fighting with machettes seems to have escaped me.

Do you know how much land money is paid by mining companies to aboriginal families and how much is peed against the wall?

579 Wrote:

"Runner didn't god make all people equal."

- No, He didn't, and indeed no two people are equal. Why should they?

Dear runner,

Firstly you must refrain from continually repeating the lie/libel that the were 10 year old kids running around with machetes. The closest report I have read on the incident talks about children, some as young as eleven carrying weapons which in their case could simply have been a stick. The media can stretch the truth all by themselves and it does neither you nor you professed faith any credit to be engaged in this sort of behavior.

To the question of my cherry picking, look to the mote in thy own eye brother.

There are pub brawls and violent interfamily feuds occurring in Australia every week. Yet you have cherry picked these two and demanded the "Aboriginal community take responsibility for their disgusting behavior".

Well I can tell you I find the behavior of of Mr Coleman and the other fundamentalist Christians in his organization to be disgusting. On the face of it they are rorting all Australian tax payers and the Aboriginal members they were charged with distributing assistance funds to.

Are you prepared as a fundamentalist Christian to apologize to the rest of us for their actions? If not your words are like the empty clanging of cymbals.

csteele

'Firstly you must refrain from continually repeating the lie/libel that the were 10 year old kids running around with machetes'

First you must get your head out of the sand and visit Regional centres in QLD, NSW and WA where aboriginal kids at much younger than 10 have been caught up in stealing cars, rock throwing and general violence. Your knit picking of one fact from one incidence demonstrates how blind you are to indigeneous issues. The problem does not go away csteele because you are in denial.

Secondly your notion that I apologise for something I know little or nothing about is ludicrous. Some Aboriginal leaders however condone violence and rebellion against the wider community as demonstrated on Australia day. Parents and relaqtives are know to send young kids to do housebreaks for grog money knowing they will be let off.

Dear runner, 

You said;"Secondly your notion that I apologise for something I know little or nothing about is ludicrous."

Yet you felt you knew enough about the incidents in Northam to demand the Australian Aboriginal community take responsibility for them.

Do you really need more enlightening?

Okay then here is a little more on your fellow Christian Mr Coleman. He has form on sucking on this particular teat. While he was a Hillsong as the CEO he stripped from the Aboriginal grant money 80 grand a year for himself, over 80 grand to set up his office and paid over 300 grand to his fellow Hillsong Christians in salaries all the while distributing less than $18,000 dollars to those for whom the money was earmarked.

"The Government has admitted that Hillsong Emerge chief Leigh Coleman received $80,000 of federal indigenous development funds to top up his salary, despite having only indirect involvement in the projects."

"It also paid Hillsong Emerge $82,500 to fit out its office in the Sydney suburb of Redfern. Mr Coleman uses the office to run the Christian Business Directory, which touts for advertising worth up to $2000 an item."

"The vast majority of the funds went to employing Hillsong Emerge staff, including $315,000 to cover the salaries of seven workers in Redfern."

http://www.kooriweb.org/foley/news/2006/june/aust6jun06.html

My take is that this rorter knew what a good earner this was so he left Hillsong to have another crack at it. Obviously he wasn't going to make the same mistake so paid out more in funds but attempted to save money by only employing one field worker. He is obviously a smooth talker because he got the big mining companies to chip in as well.

Now runner are you and your fellow Christians going to take responsibility for Hillsong and Mr Coleman's disgusting behavior or are you happy to be seen as totally hypocritical?

csteele,

Do you suddenly believe in absolutes? Wow I thought you had previously gone against much of what the Scriptures say and now you are happy to judge another by what standards? I notice you continue to divert from the topic because you are in denial of the problems that have been raised on this topic. If you want to start a thread on Mr Coleman do so but stop avoiding the obvious issues with indigeneous youth and the lack of leadership from the aboriginal elders and parents.

btw csteele
I find it hilarous that the article you posted said that these allegations were made by the NSW Labour party. Has their ever been a more corrupt party in Australia? Have you heard of Mr Thompson, csteele, or are you just cherry picking to satisfy your blindness of indigeneous youth issues?

Hi CSteele,

Far be it for me as an atheist and a Marxist to come to the defence of Runner, but your red herring is probably bigger and smellier than that 15-metre whale-shark recently caught off Pakistan. What you say may be true, but it has nothing to do with the topic.

And as an Aboriginal friend keeps saying to me, 'Reconciliation starts with the truth'. Warts and all. Sections of Aboriginal society are in deep trouble, and it does nobody any good to deny that. There is, after all, a Gap, between the living conditions, behaviours and lifestyles of most non-Indigenous people and many Indigenous people on the one hand, and many other Indigenous people on the other.

The whole truth, and nothing BUT the truth: this is ultimately how justice is served, no lies, no scams, no exaggerations, no cover-ups - and no sliding off the issues. A true cause doesn't need any of those.

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Loudmouth,

The part of the initial post I felt needed challenging was the notion that the rest of the Aboriginal community needed to take responsibility for the actions of a few and yet there was no need to examine policies of government (whiteys in runner's eyes).

Am I going about this in a ham fisted manner? Possibly. But we all need to take responsibility for afflicted communities. We have two families in a depressed suburb near us who have been going at it hammer and tongs for years with similar violence occurring. Better intervention strategies and law enforcement visibility has defused the situation markedly.

Similarly we all need to take responsibility for Mr Coleman's actions by demanding of government answers as to why he was able to access aboriginal funds to enrich himself after being found wanting when he was with 
Hillsong.

Is there a role for the Northam Aboriginal community to intervene in the dispute between the families? Of course! But it is far less their responsibility than it is the responsibility of the families concerned and the agencies involved.

Is there a role for the Fundamentalist Christian community in Australia to take a stand when Christian charities stand accused of rorting funds for the disadvantaged? Again of course. But the rest of us need to also take responsibility by demanding our authorities act.

To return to the incident first quoted by runner. We know of the injuries suffered by Mr Redman but what of the injuries suffered by the aboriginal lad in the first assault? Are the charges that have been laid only on the indigenous participants? If the lad had gone to the police after the initial assault what would have been the outcome? Would he and his family have seen a timely and adequate response from the authorities? If that expectation is not there then the option of exacting swift justice becomes inviting.

Anyway I take you point and will try and ignore it is runner I am dealing with and endevour to make my case a little more elegantly in the future.

Hi CSteele,

Yes, I fully agree with you, that catastrophes and disasters originating in the Aboriginal community should not be the sole responsibility of other Aboriginal people to resolve and remedy. 'Rescuers' and 'helpers' should come from across the entire Australian community: there are plenty of white social workers who would love to wallow in such tragedies.

But for all that, Aboriginal people as individuals and families, like anybody else (can I say that ? Or are they so incredibly unique, sui generis, and free from such mundane rules) should be responsible for themselves - parents should take responsibility for their kids, as minors and dependents, and for their own actions as well. They can't keep blaming EBU* forever, they're not kids themselves.

Yes, it can be great fun, busting up someone or going around smashing every window in a house, or kicking in doors and wall panels - I've been very tempted myself sometimes. But I know I would have had to pay for any damage I caused, and a single person can do a phenomenal amount of damage in a very short time. A group of kids can demolish an entire house in a night. Great fun ! But great expense to service providers, and eventually to the entire community.

Aboriginal people now have opportunities that weren't available thirty and forty years ago, and people can't pretend any longer that there aren't. Every university would be happy to take more Indigenous students, if they applied and could get through the pre-testing. TAFE colleges seem to have very generous entry provisions. The initiatives of Forrest and Generation One have opened up more than fifty thousand potential jobs for Indigenous people. So there they are - go for it.

Cheers,

Joe


* Everybody but us.

Well said Joe.

Yes the families should do more.

Many years ago, in the days of pay packets, we had a young girl working for us. Nice kid, good worker, quite pretty, with a lovely dark complexion, the colour many girls spent hours on the beach, trying to acquire. A girl you'd be proud of, if she were your daughter.

I saw a bunch of young blokes hanging around outside sometimes, but I only realised it was only on pay day, when I saw them taking her pay packet off her one day. They were her uncles. It was only then that I learned she was of aboriginal extraction.

Without making it obvious, we changed to pay in bank, & she kept at least more of her money.

I was really sorry to see her pushing a pram a couple of years later, a single mother on welfare. I had hoped she'd make it, but it must be hard when your family don't stop your "uncles" ripping you off.

From a loudmouth to a has-been :)

: on the other hand, Indigenous women are participating in university education to a much higher degree than one would expect - commencing courses in 2010 at about 92 % of the rate of non-Indigenous men, and 65 % of the rate of non-Indigenous women.

Taking that last statistic as some sort of surrogate, i.e. that Indigenous women are commencing studies at the highest levels, in a fairly well-educated country, at two-thirds of the rate of non-Indigenous women - one could tentatively suggest that the Indigenous female welfare-dependent population is about a third of the entire Indigenous female population. And declining.

So the task is to open up pathways - no matter how difficult and tortuous the journey may be - for the remainder of the Indigenous population, especially for the men.

The easy part, to attract the most desperate and motivated of the Indigenous population into higher education pathways to future employment opportunities, has been achieved, maybe for twenty years now, and especially over the past five or six years.

The big job now is for schools and parents to meet their responsibilities towards Indigenous children, and - in the event that this doesn't happen - for universities and TAFE colleges to devise publicity, recruitment, preparation and support programs which are appropriate for people at different stages of their educational journey.

By definition, such pathways must be extended to the most remote communities and to the least skilled young people.

The last thing should be to view school education for Indigenous children as being in one box, and higher education for Indigenous people as being in another box. But that is how it will probably pan out in the current bureaucratic environment.

The bottom line for everybody in society, including Indigenous people, is that you have to contribute at least as much as you take out. History can't get you off the hook. Reconciliation starts with the truth, the whole truth. Closing the Gap requires effort on all sides, if we are serious about it.

Joe

refreshing to see that those with experience aren't in denial of the issues. The one person work and the rest blow the money is something I have seen many times over. Almost always that person gives up on the idea of doing things the white (or African, or PNG, or Middle Eastern) way. Could not disagree with a word of the last posts.

runner,

"Almost always that person gives up on the idea of doing things the white (or African, or PNG, or Middle Eastern) way."

But I thought your impression of "the Middle Eastern way" was that it was uncivilised, etc. etc..

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4952#132619

Poirot

U seem to deliberately miss the point that one should act civilised and not use ones ethnicity as an excuse. If you think the Muslim brotherhood are civilised than many would disagree including me.

runner,

It was your pronouncement that the Muslim Brotherhood will be running the show - not mine.
Your comment on that thread was a broad generalisation, seeming to encompass the general population,...."uncivilised people", if you don't mind.

Or is it only Christians from the Middle-East who are civilised?

With respect, Poirot, I do think that you need to return to the topic and respond to the gist of what Runner is on about, not nit-pick, and snipe at his easy bits:

* there is a worrying trend amongst the long-term unemployed, particularly Indigenous people, and welfare-dependent populations, in segregated settlements (i.e. 'communities'), country towns and in outlying urban areas, to indulge in random crime sprees, violent attacks, often on other Indigenous people, rather 'dumb and dumber'-type robberies, indecent assaults and self-harm, as well as property damage.

So what do we all, Indigenous and non-Indigenous, do about it ? As a one-trick pony, all I can think of is to develop pathways to assist people to move from the depths of idiocy to which they may have sunk, to (eventually) gainful employment and secure and fulfilling lives - hopefully longer lives than await them if they stay locked in the velvet arms of Welfare.

Cheers,

Joe

I take your point, Joe....but let me make one point.

You usually try and offer solutions, however, the gist of runner's derogatory commentary usually turns on whichever race or group he has in his sights in any given thread. Therefore, when it suited him on the Arab Spring thread, he referred to Egyptians as uncivilised people. On this thread, however, he was having a go at Aboriginals so it suited him to lump Middle-Eastern people in with so-called civilised whites.

He doesn't offer suggestions or display humility - he only condemns.

Gets right up my nose.

Cheers

'On this thread, however, he was having a go at Aboriginals so it suited him to lump Middle-Eastern people in with so-called civilised whites.'

No Poirot it is the idiotic leftist ideology that is a far bigger problem than the aboriginal communities. The behaviour is largely a product of this idiotic guilt industry that encourages disgusting behaviour. Talk to to the bushman and you find a lot more common sense than from the white guilt industry.

Poirot and Runner,

There is merit in what both of you write [I'll bet you won't see that sentence too often].

But the bottom line is that, as far as Indigenous futures are concerned - as someone wiser than me wrote on another thread - the ball is in their court. "Just add effort," as a dear friend keeps telling me.

With a fifth of the country back under Indigenous control and a wide range of opportunities available, but with more than twenty million non-Indigenous people pretty firmly bedded in across the country, it is probably about as good as it's going to get, apart from a bit of extras around the edges, like a half-billion dollar deal over Noongah land rights.

But of course, in that particular case, it's still fun to kick a gift-horse in the mouth, I guess, like that one last kick in the nuts: but it's certainly that little bit harder to pretend that you are a Perpetual Victim when you get half a billion dollars dropped in your lap. Okay for some.

Yes, let's acknowledge Australian history properly and then let's take care of business. Nobody should live off the sufferings of their ancestors, so people should grab the opportunities that are manifestly available and get on with it.

Joe

You are right there Loudmouth.
If the Indigenous people (especially those here in the West) don't make the most of the opportunities that the latest Government offerings afford them, then they don't deserve any more 'help'.

This generation is basically lost as far as I am concerned.
We need to concentrate on educating the next generation of both white and Indigenous kids as well as each other, into denouncing racism and to make their own way in life.

Effective education of all is the only answer.