As of last night, the number of asylum-seekers to land this year stood at 3998. And as of Wednesday night, there were 1318 people detained on Christmas Island, including 26 crew, in facilities built for 1244. However, this latest figure does not include three of the most recent boat arrivals, which carried seven crew and 151 asylum-seekers in total.

If Juliar would just accept the coalition's compromise she would be able to send the asylum seekers to 148 countries incl Nauru. If she wants a truly regional solution that protects the rights of the refugees then it is available.

Presently all she has is the failed Malaysian and East Timor solutions, and an effective open border policy.

The Prime Minister said no to a carbon tax. We have a carbon tax. She said no to open borders. We have de facto open borders. She said no to gay marriage. Support for gay marriage is now Labor Party policy. She put off indefinitely any substance of an emissions trading scheme. The machinery for such a scheme has been legislated. She said little about giving trade unions sweeping new rights. The unions are now acting on sweeping new rights.

2011 has been a year of delivering what she promised not to, and indecision and non delivery about what she promised to deliver.

SM,
why sound so surprised ? That's what Labor wants, lump it or leave it.
Just pray there'll be some increase of sense before the next election.

Welcome to the end of Australia.

CACTUS

Classic stuff Gentlemen.
Yes we have a problem.
Yes mistakes have been made, by Labor.
Now we have this problem.
It will not go away.
Not without a thing called consensus.
Abbott holds the issue as a rat,tail tied so it can not be fixed, not go away.
And like my two opponents harks back to past mistakes, and informs us how ugly the rat is.
It is todays problem, to be fixed not used.
If Liberals Governed? If Labor refused to pass legislation that MIGHT stop them?
I see the public is growing increasingly weary of NO NO .
Shadow Minister, back to your negativity I see.
And, each day, more see the truth in the cry wolf stuff.

SM and ARJAY have something in common. They should be united. Labors border protection policy has collapsed, with the non compliance of the Coalition. Never mind it will all come out, when they are good and ready. The coalition has a problem with religion, that flies in the face of women, which is not democratic. All you hear is the same crap over and over. Surely Turnbull is amused.

Hang on a minute. The coalition said no to a carbon tax yet we got a carbon tax under the government she leads. How is the coalition totally responsible for stopping border policy? Could your lovie, dovie, green, scummy mates have anything to do with it? I'm no liberal fan, but this constant bashing Abbot over the liars party's incompetence is beyond a joke!

If they want open boarders, just come out and say so. But as always liars can't tell the truth!

We truly are living under an ineptocracy, sad but true.

r mustard. The greens did not support of shore processing, so it was up to the coalition to support the bill. the coalition said no, so who is in favor of the greens. Come into the daylight where you can be seen.

Belly,
I'd support Labor in blocking any silly policy proposed by the Coalition just as I support the coalition in blocking the silly Labor policy on border control.
Abbott isn't blocking for the sake of blocking. He is blocking because the policies are outrageously stupid because they're proposed by an outrageously incompetent ministry.
Abbott is taking those actions because unlike Labor he is concerned about Australia's future.

Dear Individual,

I beg to differ with your statement regarding
Mr Abbott's "concern for Australia's future."
He may well be concerned about many things - but
from his actions I would not have said that he
is concerned about working
Australians and their families. He has relentlessly
voted against every good reform to help working
Australians and thei families.

For example - Mr Abbott said No to spreading the
benefits of the mining boom. No to superannuation for
Aussie workers. No to making polluters pay. No to health
reform. No to flood rebuilding. No to supporting jobs
during the GFC.

He's promised to make his first act, if elected to office,
a tax break to 30 of Australia's wealthiest companies
which means there will be less money for infrastructure
and superannuation for Aussie workers.

Then instead of making polluters pay for action on climate
change he'll take $1,300 in taxes from each household to
pay for his so called climate change policy. And when he does
Mr Abbott will remove Labor policies that help Australians -
like raising the tax-free threshold from $6,000 to $18,200
so there is more reward for work, and he will cur Labor's
increases to household assistance and pensions.

Mr Abbott wants to cut the NBN which will give young people better
access to education, small b usiness better opportunities to compete
and patients access to better health care. Mr Abbott promised
to stop funding for eHealth, GP after -hours hotline, GP superclinics,
computers for school kids, trades training centres that
teach our kids a trade, apprenticeship training programs and
quality education programs.

Good For Australia? In Mr Abbott's own words - "No!, No! No! No!"

Lexi,

I am no great fan of any political party but I am inclined to agree with what you say.
The very right leaning views of the current Liberal party concern me as has the ineptness of the incumbent Labor party.
Maybe the selfishness that is now reflected in Australian society is giving us the politicians we deserve.
They are possibly just a reflection of what this country has become. Inward looking and only concerned with self.
It is a tragedy without doubt.
Who would I like as leader? Nope, no one comes to mind amongst the current crew in Canberra.

Take it easy.

SD

Lexi,
re Abbott, what you described used to be known as tightening our belts or living within our means.

Aha, shaggy, that's what they want you to think!
They (there's always a them) want us to lose faith in democracy so that we'll be easier prey for a totalitarian world government.

Is an open boarder really a "Labor" policy. It certainly is for the ratbag left, academia, & Lexi, but I very much doubt the majority of Labor supporters are that stupid.

I believe they can see the danger of this open slather as well as anyone, & want change, just as I do.

No this is a factor of a grasping Julia, controlled by Brown, & the rot set in motion by that fool Rudd.

Surely no one could forget little Ruddy, looking like a puppy dog waiting for a pat, from the academics he so desperately wanted to please, when he dismantled the successful boarder policy. You could see him wagging his psychological tail in anticipation. Like everything else about the man, it was more than a little nauseating to watch.

Julia is thrashing around pretending to look for an answer, but is not game to put up, or agree with, any suitable arrangement, for fear of Brown. Anyone who expects any better of her is a fool.

First, as always, I think Gillard is the wrong leader.
I think too Labor is comparing great achievements, with a dream the public will change their mind about her.
They will not.
However consider this thread, and our ramblings here in current open threads.
We, with little understanding, have let the hung Parliament, tear us apart.
How much evidence exists, on what basis, do we claim all politicians are crooks/useless?
And how will we glue this country back together under any form of government?
This issue rolls in contempt. I share it, for Labors past actions.
It is TAINTED! by the madness of minority's, who put love and concerns for refugees and those who pose as refugees first.
Blind to the impacts.
Yesterdays faults exist.
But High Court decisions have been made.
That change much, quite possible the Nehru thing is no longer possible.
Shadow Minister cloaks himself in the NEGATIVITY of Abbott.
It seems clear, a man who wants to use the Navy to turn these boats around at sea, is only using this issue.
He/ Our media/ his supporters, conveniently forget.
His Shadow Minister,explored the idea of? SENDING REFUGEES TO IRAN.
After my party is defeated, who will blame us if we became as negative as these ?
See SM in Sickys thread, intent on class warfare.
Our country is poorly served by Mr NO.
The rebuilding of trust, even understanding, politics is not as bad as Abbott paints it will take years to fix.
This problem?
Recall Parliament and fix it , find other issues to fight child like games do not bleed this country.
Doctor NO see who advises him in todays SMH.

<<Seventh boatload of aslyum-seekers in one week>>

Well no doubt they are trying to beat the Christmas rush!

They would have already phoned through their orders (halal turkey etc)
for their Christmas Island festive lunch, and want to get there in time to scrub up for it.

But it does prove one thing: it ain't about push factors-- its all about pull factors.

A totally inept govt, and some nice little incentives of late:
"LABOR will begin moving at least 100 asylum seekers a month into community" [Nov 25th]

And, even the people smugglers have less to worry about:

"The federal government intends to fast-track the release of [those who claim to be] Indonesian minors being held in Australian jails on people-smuggling charges." [Dec 7]

All of which sends one very loud and clear message:
COME ON DOWN, HAVE WE GOT A GREAT DEAL FOR YOOOOU!

Jay of Melbourne,

Whilst I cannot suggest a replacement, Democracy as we know it in this country has not served us very well in more recent times.

I had understood from an early age that Democracy would bring forth the best in a people and the nation as a whole. Something appears to have gone awry in Australia. I guess the blame must be laid squarely at the feet of the people and their attitudes. The politicians we have were put there by the people.

Look inwards to find fault, not outwards. What is out there is of our making.

Take it easy.

SD

We all know that the "Loony Left" are part of the globalist capitalist system, that these stooges and shills, Messrs Rintoul, Casey et al are not genuinely opposed to anything the capitalists and growthers do, they're simply spokespeople for the system.
The only genuine resistance is coming from Nationalists and Traditionalists, we're trying to build bridges with like minded people of all races and nationalities while the Left and their globalist masters try to obliterate ALL tradition and ALL culture in ALL countries.

You are right Jay of melbourne.Labor also sucks up to migrants and illegals for votes.The boat people may only be the few extra votes they will get.

Dear Individual,

Tightening our belts? You're right there - however
under Mr Abbott and Co that only applies to
working Australians, and their families, and pensioners,
and all the vunerable people in our society.

BTW: Mr Abbott could care less about the country and
its people. He cares only about one thing - to be
Prime Minister - no matter what the cost to the rest
of us.

Arjay,

Interesting point of view.

Certainly a complicated, expensive and untidy way of gaining a few votes.

I would have thought buying a few beers in selected electorates would have been a simpler and more cost effective method. More pleasant too I might add.

Take it easy.

SD

Tightening our belts? You're right there - however
under Mr Abbott and Co that only applies to
working Australians, and their families, and pensioners,
and all the vunerable people in our society.
Lexi,
Your comment is just so outrageously desperate especially in the face of the incompetence of the present PM. I'm trying to understand how you interpret integrity & similar words. You're quite happy to support proven abysmal failure but you're jumping the gun when it comes to someone who has not gotten the job & either prove or disprove himself.
Does the present state of affairs not bother you because perhaps it doesn't affect You ? I sense a dreadful lack of compassion in your comment.

Indi Can you say a bit clearer what you are not happy with.

Dear Individual,

I wish that you could blame me for all the woes.
However it isn't me that lacks compassion. On
the contrary. Re-read my previous posts and
perhaps you will comprehend why I'm so concerned.
However, if you don't understand - then there's
nothing more to be said.

"""
BTW: Ms Gillard couldn't care less about the country and
its people. She cares only about one thing - to be
Prime Minister - no matter what the cost to the rest
of us.
"""

There fixed that for ya, Lexi!

--

@individual

She's an Astroturfer, ignore her she's a paid shill. And if she isn't paid, then she's a deluded shill, her and that other one that goes by the name, guts.

Some things taking place here OLO concern me.
That last post of raw mustards is up to his usual standards, quite offensive.
Individual? well not worth the read no more uninformed poster ever wrote here.
Lexi, I have noted insults and corrections aimed at you.
From the ivory tower of others opinions for a long while.
Yes at times even from on high.
Remember good and kind lady, far worse, near flaming goes unnoticed here.
I love this place , but not enough to stay if you are driven away by lessor beings.
I would not feel comfortable in such as that leftist thing we both read and get e mail up dates.
But give this advice, some of our detractors here are bright and intelligent.
Others struggle in real life to be other than the verbal BULLY'S they present them selves to be here.
We all of us, are charged with being as good as we can, here in the forum.
However to be considered other than fair and reasonable for defending truth.
Is our down fall.
This line I write slowly, for Indy, RM, SPQR.
Find the lie in this
Gillard is indeed unloved and unliked.
Yet consistently.
She wins with easy as preferred Prime Minister.
More trust her than Mr NEGATIVE.
A man who has told more lies by his admission, than she ever has.
You win every time by not letting the crude and rude get to you.

The Malaysian solution stripped the human rights of the asylum seekers far more than the Pacific solution ever did. This was acknowledged by the Labor left the greens and eventually by the judgement of the high court. Having pointed this out the Coalition would have been guilty of the worst hypocrisy. The judgement having pointed out that in Nauru the asylum seekers fell under the jurisdiction of the Australian Government, and that this was far better.

579 and Belly seem to now feel that this has changed and are happy to send children to Malaysia to be beaten.

Labor had an effective border protection policy in place and trashed it. Juliar's alliance with the greens is unable to change the laws and now has the balls to ask the coalition to abandon all its humanitarian principles?

Dear Belly,

Thank You for your concern but please don't worry.
I love this forum (same as you), and even though
things can get heated at times - I've learned
so much - especially from people that I often
disagree with. My views aren't set in concrete
and often I'll go back and have a re-think and
genuinely try to see things from the other person's
point of view. For example, there's always a reason
why people think the way they do - each of us has
our own set of experiences. However, I've learned
something from so many people. I don't pretend to have
all the answers - and as many know - like everyone -
I sometimes get things wrong. Anyway, I believe that everyone
here is a decent human being - and after-all this is
only an opinion forum. That's something we
sometimes forget - when our discussions get a bit robust.
I'm going to try to be a bit more understanding (New Year's
Resolution). It may only work for a short time - but heck,
it's worth a try.

The nub of the matter is, as Mr abbott and his forever faithful, beyond-reason apologist, Shadow Minister, well know is that simply shifting processing from onshore detention centres to Nauru, by itself, was a failure and will be a failure again.

What is needed, as Mr A and SM well know, is Australian Navy guns firing across the bows of boats, boarding then, turning them or towing them back from whence they came for a one-hundred percent certain outcome.

Will a majority of Australians support a return to this action by the next election? Mr A and SM are certainly hoping so. It's all the Coalition has left in its armoury to get back in and it's not letting go, even though borders will remain open for two years as a consequence. Stinking, putrid politics.

At least the Greens have a principled position, they want onshore processing with minimal detention. Mr A and SM feign priciple, telling you that the Malaysian Solution equates to rape and child-beating, but they know that's just to mask a total lack of concern for human rights and safety which will be returned when Mr A presses the Australian Navy into service once more. The fact is, the Government will keep an eye on Malaysia in its dealings and can always pull the pin if it fails its side of the bargain.

So folks, we have two years more of open borders unless the Malaysian Solution is adopted by the grace of the Coalition.

"""
Gillard is indeed unloved and unliked.
Yet consistently.
She wins with easy as preferred Prime Minister.
"""

I would prefer a bird poop on my head than a cow. Doesn't mean I like birds pooping on my head. Poop is poop however your want to spin it my astroturfing dill!

"""
More trust her than Mr NEGATIVE.
"""

Why would anyone want him to support the crazy, screwed up ideas your inept lot have foisted on a lied to Australian public?
That's why he's called an "OPPOSITION LEADER" - Get it? OPPOSITION!

Anyway, we'll see how popular she is at the next swapping of our corrupt rulers. She's finished you know and so is your lot of thieves and scoundrels!

"""
I would not feel comfortable in such as that leftist thing "we both read and get e mail up dates".
"""

Exactly why I have no time for your fake opinions; because they're not yours, but scripted verses passed onto you by your slave-masters.

This is suppose to be online opinion not a recital podium for labour party scripted propaganda.

Dear RM,

Take it easy. An imperative point to remember is
to always know your topic. Personal experience in
the area is often helpful in making you sound
knowledgeable and sincere. Whether the topic is
politics, sport, television or stamp collecting make
sure you are informed - especially in the latest
developments. Using unreasonable generalisations
as you seem bent on doing makes you appear to be
arguing on an emotional level - not a mature,
intelligent one. Good, peaceful arguing can increase
one's self-esteem and public confidence. Whether
you encounter a disagreement at home, work, a pub,
or at a party remember to think before you speak.
No - one likes of supports an abusive, illogical or
weak debater. Argue to win.

Sorry, Raw, I disagree with the only real point I have sifted from your raving diatribe. Opposition should also exist for the public good, not just political purposes.

There is a responsibility on the part of an opposition to ensure the needs of the nation are met.

How is insisting on a solution that was a proven failure on its own, processing on Nauru, while stopping the Governmnet from implementing a humane alternative with a strong chance of success, in the national good?

In balancing wide-open borders versus a subjective view that Australia is getting a poor deal under the proposed Malaysian Solution, Mr A has come down on the side of leaving the borders wide-open. He voices concern over possible beatings and rapes in Malaysia to add ballast to his position, but this is obviously ingenuous when, in the same breath, he says he'll turn ricketty boat full of people back out to sea and disregard their rights under UN conventions.

I happen to think that Mr A's use of opposition powers is against the national good in relation to border protection and is being used for political purposes. I don't need a script as I have the faculties to be able to see this is obvious. Can't you, Raw?

She wins with easy as preferred Prime Minister.
Belly,
Of course, what else did you expect with the inmates in control of the asylum.
lexi,
I do understand. I understand that the future of Australia is not in your sights only the survival of a bureaucrat backing ALP.
Raw Mustard,
Sadly a rather apt description of our sparring partners.
I can't help thinking of the movie The Island when debating with ALP voters.

Luciferase,

I guess that by your lack answer that you are a strong supporter of the Malaysian solution, and that sending unaccompanied children to a country that is not a signatory to the UNHCR convention with no legal protections, that has one of the worst human rights records is OK with you.

Labor is in coalition with the greens and has enough votes in parliament and the senate to pass whatever legislation it wants.

The coalition has not said No it has agreed to Labors legislation with one amendment, and off shore processing could begin tomorrow.

Gentle men, I include Raw Mustard in my comments but not as a gentleman.
I want to highlight some truths.
Shadow Minister fits the child like description of me by the heated but lost RM.
He knowing uses Verbal Inexactitudes, to denigrate the Malaysian solution.
He is quite Intelligent and knows no flogging is by agreement to take place.
He too is repelled by left and greens, but quite willing to use them, as stones.
SM understands this has much more than an even chance, of stopping the boats.
Indy, again mate, you seem to look at the world from within an empty water tank turned up side down
Lexi, too sweet my good Friend, your niceness is not returned here and not of use it is seen by some as weakness.
Threads exist about online rudeness, well think about this, is pretending we are different online than in life a Worth while thing?
While some would never! say face to face what they do here! it is an expected out come of the freedom we have here, some are different, more aggressive here, I am not,
My words about Gillard being unloved but in front of Abbott are true.
I want both of them gone.
But consider the comments of Raw Mustard and Indy.
Truly look!
How could anyone think they are other than verbal Graffiti impulse posters who put little thought in to the comments.
That intrude with intent on good manners.

What Belly and the rest of Australia knows is that asylum seekers are not kept in one place and provided for but released into the community to fend for themselves. a diplomatic agreement is not going to protect children against xenophobic militia that prey on illegal immigrants, and a piece of paper saying they have the right to work is worth as much as Juliar's word.

Given the 800 quota for 4 years that was filled in 3 months, the Malaysian solution didn't have a snowball's chance in hell.

The pacific solution saw less boats in 5 years than Labor got in one week. Labor inherited 4 boat people in detention, what do we have now?

Dear Shadow Minister,

Finger-pointing is not going to solve the problem that has
perplexed several governments. And this is a problem that
is not about to go away any time soon. If the Coalition
wins the next election - they will still have the same
problem. You keep quoting the Pacific Solution and Nauru -
fair enough - that's your party line and you're here to
promote it. We all understand it. However, it was an
extremely expensive "solution" I bleieve the quote was
somewhere in the vacinity of $600,000 per person. It had
some awful effects on the people kept in detention - the
scars of which still exist today, and as we know most of
them ended up in Australia anyway. A repeat of that - is
not something that any thinking person concerned with human
rights would want to see repeated. Mr Abbott and Co were
asked to vote on making changes to the Migration Act - in
order to allow whatever government was in power in the future
to be able to make decisions concerning asylum-seekers.
Mr Abbott voted "No,No No" as always. Therefore, he obviously
will only support - "No, No, Na, Nau, Naur, Nauru!"

That travesty isn't about to happen any time soon. And your
bleating about what Labor does wrong - is a bit of a joke.
Look to your own Party's leader - he hasn't got anything right
so far and people are getting sick and tired of your and his
same old negativity. It's wearing a bit thin. Your're a one
issue Party. Condem Labor. That's all you've got! Keep it
up. You're doing Labor a favor!

asylum seekers are not kept in one place and provided for but released into the community to fend for themselves.
Shadow Minister,
I would appreciate if you could read & comment on the last posts in the Boat People set loose thread.
Those who whine about Abbott's refusal to agree to the Malaysian solution should put their money where their mouths are & help the asylum seekers when they get treated according to Malaysia's attitude towards illegals. They'd be quite happy to condemn the asylum seekers as long as Julia gets her way. Where do they think the major terrorist cells are brainwashing ? Not in Nauru that's for sure.

Dear Individual,

There are many terrorist cells around the world
in various countries. However, people with
questionable histories are immediately sifted
out by the Immigration Department. There is of
course no guarantees that everyone will escape
detection - but we do have stringent laws in place.
And these laws will serve whichever government is
in power. But as we all know - those that want to
rort the system will manage to do it - again,
no matter which government is in.

It's probably worthwhile reading the bald facts at
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e4884c6.html
Australia contributes to the work of UNHCR

Australia will provide resources for the 800 and Malaysia has agreed to certain standards in relation to them, including their right to work in formal employment. 4000 processed refugees will be removed from Malaysia to be resettled in Australia.

Without any solution in place, SM is correct, the 800 was reached in a short time. With the proposed Malaysian Solution in place, it is expected that boats will stop. The agreement is open to new tranches as necessary, with Malaysia stating committment to its part of the agreement. Implying Malaysia is lying in relation to its committment, based on what one may think of our government, is pure prejudice.

Stop your ingenuous hand-wringing about human rights and safety and be honest, SM, Mr Abbott's biggest concern of all about the Malaysian Solution is that it will work.

@Lexi,

<< However, people with questionable histories are immediately sifted out by the Immigration Department. There is ofcourse no guarantees that everyone will escape detection - but we do have stringent laws in place>>

ROFL

"Two Burmese refugees from Brisbane's northside have admitted to working for Burma's oppressive military junta, infiltrating student groups and inciting ethnic hatred.

Northgate's Htoo Htoo Han, now a human rights artist and campaigner, said he executed 24 anti-government protesters and student leaders during the 1988 anti-government uprisings and had indirect involvement with 100 other murders while infiltrating student organisations and identifying and targeting leading activists.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/north/refugees-admit-to-dark-past/story-fn8m0rl4-1226101571479

"There are claims that hundreds, if not thousands of people living in Australia may have committed crimes against humanity in different parts of the world, and their communities believe they know who they are."
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/war-criminals-in-australia/3099724

"A Somali community leader says he has expected a terrorist incident in Australia for at least two years.

His comments come after four Australian citizens were arrested this morning in counter-terrorism raids that foiled an alleged plan to enter army barracks in Sydney and carry out a sustained attack on military personnel"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-08-04/scholar-predicted-somali-terrorist-activity/1378320

To borrow an expression from Shadow Minister: we have a snow balls hope in hell! And even in those rare instances when we find something amiss, advocates will push for their release. As with this piece from Bruce Haigh.
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12900&page=0

Lexi & Luciferase,
could you please read & comment on the last posts in the thread Boat people set loose ?
Would be good to get another view on the situation on Xmas Island.

@Luciferase,

<< Without any solution in place, SM is correct, the 800 was reached in a short time... The agreement is open to new tranches as necessary, with Malaysia stating committment to its part of the agreement.>>

That's why Bowen NEEDS to raise the intake limit to 20,000
(it's not aspirational at all --it's dire necessity!)

With an exchange rate of 4000:800 (under the Malaysian NON-solution).
Assuming "new tranches", a 20,000 target will (barely) allow for the swap of the current inflow.

Which means, all other sources for/of "refugees" (Africa etc) will get zero allocation --UNLESS, he plans to raise the level even further!

At a table set up to resolve an issue.
Both sides sit down, and first if wise and out comes are expected.
Agree to leave the past mistakes behind.
To learn from them, not forget but look forward.
Now some, jump up and down yapping nonsense, but good leadership usually removes them from the table.
We deal with the post hight court problem.
Some claim it the Government way will not work.
But any thought gone in to that?
Any understanding.
NEGATIVE LEADERSHIP by Abbott may well be his end.
He may well fall on this issue.
Call me what you will, I think NEGATIVE understands, this will work.
And fears it doing just that.

Dear Individual,

There are lots of opinions out there regarding
illegals and what they try to do. They come by
plane not by boat. I have already
answered these questions on a previous thread
from an investigation that was undertaken under
the Freedom of Information Act by the Herald Sun
newspaper.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/taxpayers-60,000-illegal-immigrants/story-e6frf716-1226200664868

As the article points out - another misconception is that people
who arrive by boat are "illegal," immigrants. They're not illegal.
Australia is obliged to assess their claims.

Lexi,
The one and only reason we can detain the boat people is that it is illegal to enter Australia without a valid visa. Even DIAC class them as unlawfull entrants.

Try as you might to paint these con artists and gate crashers in a better light, you fail. We simply cannot and do not detain those persons that enter Auatralia legally.

Those that try to enter Aus by air, without a valid visa, are also detained.

Dear Banjo,

I am talking about boat people who ask for asylum.
Australia is obliged to assess their claims -
papers or not. People fleeing persecution often
don't have the time to get papers from a regime
which they are running from. These people are simply
running. Anyway, we've been over this previously -
so you should know what is being referred to here.
I don't care to repeat the same ground over again.
This issue is not about to go away any time soon.
It's a problem that every government is going to have
to tackle - sooner or later. We can only trust that
it will be sooner. If the Malaysian Solution will
work - perhaps as Belly says, this is what the Opposition
fears the most. It will pull the rug out from under
their constant condemnation. As I've said in the past
If the PM was to walk on water. Shadow Minister, Mr
Abbott and Co. would simply tell the media, "You see
the PM can't swim!" No pleasing some people no matter what's
achieved.

Lexi,
You are the one going over and over the same ground.

It has been pointed out many times on OLO that ALL non citizens entering Aus require a valid visa. That is what makes the boat arrivals illegal. They only become asylum seekers after they apply for asylum, but still remain illegal entrants. The UN clearly states that asylum seekers must obey a countries laws. An intention to apply for asylum does not give special rights of entry.

It seems that illegals advocates will not accept these facts, so I say again that the boat people are illegal because they have no valid visa to legally enter. That is the reason we can hold them in detention. We do not detain persons who enter legally.

Lexi,

The problem hasn't perplexed several governments, only Labor. The Howard government had it fixed, down to about 1 boat a year compared to the 63 this year. Whatever the coalition spent on border protection per person, their total budget was a tiny fraction of what Labor's policies are costing the nation today, let alone the clogging of the legal system and the blow out on legal costs.

Tony Abbott said no to the beating of children and yes to off shore processing. Juliar spent 15 minutes discussing the issue, and it was her way or nothing. What a useless negotiator. She turned down the coalition's compromise even when her minister for immigration recommended going with Nauru. She said no when her best advice was Nauru. The only party that Juliar will take policy from is the Greens.

As for your sycophantic regurgitation of labor policy, and the unbelievable "the pacific solution didn't work" what next? Is the earth flat?

Labor is easy to beat up on with its raft of bad and failed policies, from Pink batts, school halls, the highest priced carbon tax in the world, and the highest mining tax in the world. They are a total joke.

Every one of Labor's new reforms needs a new tax, and yet we keep going further into debt. The deficit for 2011/12 was at election time predicted at 12bn, in May it was 22bn, and is now 37bn. A $25bn black hole in one year.

How risky is the boat journey anyway?
Indonesian fishermen have been making it for, who knows, maybe hundreds of years with no GPS, no radio's or phones.
What's the real attrition rate among the irregular migration industry's merchant marine?
It's certainly well below 5% probably lower, it's statistically far less dangerous than road travel in that part of the world.
I've no doubt the crossing may be uncomfortable for some travellers but you get what you pay for.

On "Border protection", how can we expect a group of purely political functionaries who are detached from, if not hostile to the very idea of a nation to act in it's defence?

If you do not under stand politics is pure Mathematics you understand nothing about the subject.
Shadow Minister harks back to a past that has gone,and can not be returned to.
Hight Court of Australia Changed every thing.
It however is a handy blind for Shadow Minister.
To pretend we live still in an unchanged world.
To ignore that Nehru, with outlaw changes may be illegal.
That in the view, of Howard's advisers, it is both illegal and,, will no longer work.
If your task is to fool some of the people, not resolve an issue, follow SM.
Lexi, you want better for the boat people, you see the pain, please see with 20/20 vision the impacts.
Like it or not Australia is doing more per head of population than many others.
We however are watching my government, poorly led poorly served by cowards who dither rather than change leaders, at its lowest.
It can not be ignored.
Some/many of these boat people are not here in fear of their life but financial welfare.
John Howard, would have been Prime Minister still, and till death, if not for work choices.
Party's are, like it or not,driven not by internal engines,but voters.
This issue, NEGATIVE Abbott understands, is driving Labor from office.
Fewer people want boat people to stay than go.
At best, to win and retain government,party's must serve the many.
Not tie its self to the sinking rock of the few.
The best achievable out comes result not the best.
Malaysian solution would work.
Unkind to refugees? is it understood we head on rush toward decades of Conservative government?
Because we forget in the end policy's must be acceptable to most voters.
In not focusing on impacts we ignore our self inflicted future pain.

Onya Belly !

SD

Lexi;
Those arriving by boat do need to have a visa.
If they were refugees and were arriving DIRECT from their own country
you would be right, but they have arrived via several countries where
they could have applied for visas.

That is why they are illegal !

Dear Bazz,

You are entitled to your opinion, but not your facts.
Kindly Google the Department of Immigration's fact sheets
about asylum seekers - and you'll learn the facts concerning
the status of their "legality," for yourself.

Cheers.

Juliar said no to off shore processing.

The coalition offered her a compromise, and she took 15 minutes to reject it in spite of the advice of her immigration minister Chris Bowen. Juliar is playing politics with Australia's security.

SM,

You've go to stop twisting the facts to suit your party's
agenda. The PM did no such thing. What the PM did do is
personally ask Tony Abbott to support changes to the
Migration Act so that whoever was in government could
then make the decisions concerning asylum seekers. Mr
Abbott as usual said "No!" He did not offer any compromise.
It was either his way (Nauru), or no way. But you keep
on with your party's one issue agenda - which is condeming
Labor. We understand - you have nothing else to offer!

Lexi,

The facts are that Juliar presented the change in Law that stripped all protections from the Migration act to the coalition. The coalition accepted the legislation with one amendment to restore some protections, but still allow off shore processing.

Juliar then said NO to this compromise and set about improving the smugglers business model, by removing further deterrents as per the Greens demands.

And why we all argue the boats' will just keep coming.

That's the thing with us Australians - AND our politicians...what we do best - All we ever do is talk !

Whether it's to build a second Airport for Sydney, or a new Dam for Melbourne - what do we do...talk !

I'm an uneducated retired copper, but I'll tell you all something ; this (magnificent) country of ours, is slowly slipping away from us ! It's in the process of dying. Crimes of violence are on the increase in all our cities. We complain that sentences are too lenient, gaols are like holiday camps, and we're told our youth are so disaffected with everything, that's why they have little or no respect for anyone or anything !

We can't seem to make anything anymore, we don't have a manufacturing industry, we simply blame China for that ! Aren't we supposed to be both the clever and lucky country ?

And what do we do about it ?

Talk, talk and more talk.

GOD HELP US ALL !

oh sung wu, yes true.
We must blame first our selves.
It is in our hands we put politicians there all of us.
Right now the winners are as listed, smugglers, individuals who in truth come for financial not refugee reasons.
Greens and the few who consider us, the majority SAVAGES for saying stop the boats, reconsider our Migration policy's, stop separatism.
Government and opposition, both are to blame.
And yes Labor made big mistakes.
FORGOT PUBLICS ENTRENCHED OPINION.
But as SM milks the issue, past mistakes yes no talk of fixing it.
It will be February before the government get its wants past the lower house.
BUT not the senate!
By then, count with me, 2500 more arrivals will come.
Greens the minority, will win on Abbott's votes we AUSTRALIA will not.
If every Australian.
Wrote one letter, to both leaders and that fool Brown.
The same letter no abuse,those end in the rubbish.
Remind them of this country's growing costs, growing concerns and demand an end we just may get it.
PS
Activists also address such a letter to the media,exact copy, they grab it and the whisper becomes a roar.
Polly's need a prod hot irons work best.

Shad, as usual you deal in half-truths, such as half of the Pacific Solution instead of aknowledging its entirity (i.e. naval guns).

To many half-truths you now add "She (JG) turned down the coalition's compromise even when her minister for immigration recommended going with Nauru".

Nauru was discussed, as of course it ought to have been, but not "recommended" without the condition that the Malaysian Solution should also be implemented. Ms Gillard, and other cabinet members saw,rightly, that this was too complicated and wouldn't fly.

So, Shad, what is your point this time? is it:-

1) The ALP should not look at any possible way to get its own policy through parliament?
2) That cabinet should simply accept the Chris Ellison's floated suggestion because he, at that point, was Minister for Immigration?
3) That any idea floated within cabinet should be followed through once cabinet confidentiality is breached?

You latch on to a half-truth which you then spout as mantra, and that's the total extent of your argument. C'mon, Shad, that doesn't cut it. OLO readers deserve better.

You still talk of the "Pacific Solution" as if all it involved was processing in Nauru (not Nehru, Belly, that was an Indian bloke). You simply won't acknowledge that the ad hoc development of the policy finally led, as a last resort, to the Australian Navy having to do the dirty work because all else had failed.

If you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge this incontrovertible fact, because it completely guts your entire position on border protection, it is because you have roped yourself the mast of HMAS Tony and will happily go down with the ship.

I do not wish the Australian Navy to be compromised in the way it was a decade ago in carrying out inhumanitarian government policy, whoever is in power.

o sung wu...we have talked about this before....and while most as belly has pointed out, we still have the problem of infrastructure not keeping up with growth.

Iam scratching my head, just on that problem alone.

More people here?....is that your answer to the what?

These poor people are easy labour, and thats why.....as to keep things cheap.....just like the sweat shops in.....

My Questions is, "what about our own grown crew?.....I want an answer!

CACTUS

Oops, I meant Chris Bowen, not Ellison, of course!
Please see http://www.smh.com.au/national/gillard-takes-mps-to-task-over-cabinet-revelations-20111017-1ltfj.html to get a media take on things

Call me anything you like but what's wrong with viewing this issue like this. The Nauru business was reasonably effective then Labor changed it. Why ? Now it's all ineffective.
How much clearer do some people need it explained. What was Gillard's reason for changing things ? Was there really a need for relaxing the accessibility to this country by so many who may or may not be genuine refugees ? What is the percentage of genuine vs non-genuine refugees coming without I.D.
Abbott gets accused of saying No to everything. Well, thus far it has proven to be safer to say no than saying yes to everything.
Why keep blaming Abbott for the sudden rise in boat numbers when it it was Gillard who abandoned Nauru. If Gillard had kept Nauru & design an alternative meanwhile Australia's future would not have been as jeopardised as it is now.

SD: "Call me anything you like"
RESPONSE: I didn't, and wouldn't, call you anything. I just described what you do, i.e deal in half-truths.

SD "The Nauru business was reasonably effective then Labor changed it. Why ?"
RESPONSE: It was totally effective because it intimidated asylum seekers by forcibly turning them out to sea. Previously they were transferred to Nauru, which was no disencouragement, just as mandatory detention is not now. The reason Labor changed it was because intimidation by use of force is simply wrong. It ignored human rights and safety.

SD: " Was there really a need for relaxing the accessibility to this country by so many who may or may not be genuine refugees ? What is the percentage of genuine vs non-genuine refugees coming without I.D."
RESPONSE: " The consequence of righting a wrong was to relax accessibility. The Malaysian Solution is a humane attempt to discourage arrivals by dangerous boat journey (and can also apply to illegal immigrants who arrived by conventional means). Refugess were not assessed at all when boats were turned out to sea, which was a very safe solution to the identification problem, but a very wrong way to act. Who is a refugee and who is not needs to be assessed under any humane solution, no getting away from it

SD: "Why keep blaming Abbott for the sudden rise in boat numbers when it it was Gillard who abandoned Nauru. If Gillard had kept Nauru & design an alternative meanwhile Australia's future would not have been as jeopardised as it is now."
RESPONSE: The rise in boat numbers has nothing to do with processing on Nauru. Just about everyone who got as far as Nauru was given residency. The abandonment of Nauru was a sign that all aspects of the Pacific Solution, including the disincentive of being turned back to sea, had been abandoned. It was this latter aspect that encouraged the "people-smuggling" trade to rekindle (I have a problem with this term as smuggling mean to "sneak" something through. The boats announce their arrival by phone or whatever means, so how is it "smuggling"). The Gov't has designed a humane alternative to the Pacific Solution that will succeed, but Mr A will not back it, for disingenuous reasons, to gain political advantage. Labor's fault is that it assumed, wrongly, that the opposition would act in the nations and refugees best interests, not its own. Taking refugees has risks, but we have to have a balanced view. I believe Australia, as a responsible world citizen, should accept them while taking every measures it can to ensure our safety. I am sorry that some take a view otherwise and can only hope that, if reincarnated, they find themselves on the side needing help in their next life.

LF,

There were 4 boats turned back in 2001, yet the pacific solution continued to work into 2008. Yet you continue to claim this as the main reason the pacific solution worked? Not the reduced success to get to Aus or the TPVs? Have you any supporting information for this ludicrous claim, or did you just make it up.

Note that in Nov 2007 when Labor took power there were only 4 boat people in detention.

The coalition has offered labor a chance for an off shore processing with a proven success record, that labor cannot implement its idiot scheme is not its concern. That Labor prefers to play politics rather than compromise is an indication of its priorities.

Luci,

I note you referring to an "SD" in your last few posts. Is my name being taken in vain?
I assume that it be not be me as I have had little to say about the topic apart from a nod of the head in the general direction of Lexi and Belly.

Take it easy.

SD

Dear Individual,

Here's a few links that may answer some of your questions:

http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2011/09/13/The-Pacific-Solution-was-a-fraud.aspx

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Exminister-named-Nauru-passport-csam/2006/05/09/1146940517313.html

Geez SD, you're right. SM it should have been, apologies.

Shad, your point has been covered in many posts on other threads. Nauru processing alone never did and never will have any real impact on boat numbers. Your own figures show that once the Navy stepped in to do the dirty work the boats trickled to a stop and not before. The threat of being turned back out to sea remained until Nauru was abandoned. That's why Mr A has vowed to use the Navy again. Why would he need to go that far, do you think? You and he obviously disagree on Australian Navy's role in the "Pacific Solution". Get hip with the party line, Shad.

You are dedicated beyond reason now, tied to the mast as you are. I'm not dedicating any more keystrokes to this thread so it's all yours, Shad. Maintaining the mantra will never make it true.

Luciferase,

Just a simple question:

If the pacific solution didn't work, and the only reason the boats stopped was the risk of being turned around, then why was it still working in 2008 7 years later, and then one year after labor came to power and the pacific solution was lifted, suddenly the boats increased dramatically.

At this point your theory falls in a hole.

Just because labor tragics keep repeating that the pacific solution didn't work, doesn't make it true.

I am a cynic, I look at the numbers:
2001 No pacific solution - thousands of boat arrivals
2002 Pacific solution - zero boat arrivals
- etc.
2008 Pacific solution - almost zero boat arrivals
2009 No pacific solution - thousand of boat arrivals.
- etc.

It will take more than a few unsubstantiated opinion pieces by labor tragics to convince the Australian people that the huge body of evidence didn't happen.

Put some facts on the table. Richo's opinion is just that, an opinion.

What next? will you tell me that the earth is flat.

Dear Luciferase,

Shadow Minister said, "What next? Will you tell me
that the earth is flat?"

Don't you wish it were flat so all the idiots
would keep walking and never come back? ;-)

Lexi I think we need some people to remind us all not to get too big a head.
I see signs one poster is rather elitist and seems truly to think he is always right.
A sure sign he is rarely so.
As most understand we are the victims of a hung Parliament.
No easy thing to live with.
It gave conservatives hope Henny Pennying, claiming the sky was falling .
And some of the most outrageous things, would put them in power.
And it will, but the house they have built on lies promises they never intend to keep, is no house.
But a shanty build of junk it will just maybe fall on their heads in one term.
On form, please understand not my wants but my likely out come.
Greens will be less represented Labor beaten, unless Gillard gos forever in March.
Conservatives want a double dissolution.
They will not control the senate.
If they have the lower house numbers I expect they will get it.
Greens will suffer great loss, and maybe conservatives control both house.
But with no doubt that conservative government will become the worst we ever had.

Don't you wish it were flat so all the idiots
would keep walking and never come back? ;-)
Lexi, Lexi,
I am the first to admit I'm not a fan of the lefties but I don't wish extinction upon them either.

Dear Individual,

I was merely responding to Shadow Minister's earlier comment.
Don't take things personally. You I imagine will not
become extinct for quite some
time - most conservatives don't know how to move forward.

most conservatives don't know how to move forward.
Lexi,
the reason why they don't move forward is because they can see the lefties falling before them.
Remember, Lemming starts with L like leftie, conservative starts with C as in cautious :-)

Lexi,
re your earlier links. You seem to be able to always source academic's & experts' opinions. Can you get hold of the opinions of staff who know & who work in these detention centres ?
Would be interesting to draw parallels.

Lexi,

Labor has been "moving forward" into quick sand. The coalition want to return to the safety of dry land, to a solution that clearly worked.

Everyone knows that this boat problem didn't exist before 2008 when KRudd dismantled the Pacific solution.

While throwing mud can be a happy pass time.
And while it too can blind some on both sides.
Resolving todays problem will not be done by recycling yesterdays.
I ask this, if Malaysia will fail.
If Nehru is not illegal.
Why would Tony Abbott, Negative man, not want to give Labor its failure.
So by the time the 2013 election is held, he could strangle them with that failure?
I now give you the answer, Abbott knows it would work.
Abbott puts AUSTRALIA behind his personal ambitions, soon Australia will put Abbott and Gillard behind them.
Only question what one goes first,the other surely follows.

Why would Tony Abbott, Negative man, not want to give Labor its failure.
Belly,
The only reason I can think of is that Abbott thinks along the same lines as most decent people. He doesn't look at this as a game to be either won or lost.

Dear Individual,

This is all about winning as far as Mr Abbott is concerned.
He'll say and do anything to become PM. And most decent
people are becoming well aware of that fact.

Tony Abbott (the preferred PM) has made it clear that the coalitions does not approve of stripping the asylum seekers of the basic human rights protections they enjoyed under the Pacific solution. To approve Juliar's legislation with no protections would make the coalition accomplices to any abuse of women and children that is common place in Malaysia.

Now that Juliar seems so fond of conscience votes, why does she not put it to the parliament as a conscience vote? Then we will see just how many Labor MPs are really prepared to put their names to the abomination that is the Malaysian solution.

SM,

Australian of the year, psychiatrist, Patrick McGorry does not
agree with your opinion on the "humane" treatment of asylum
seekers under the Pacific Solution. It didn't solve anything -
and only added to the taxpayers expense, and inhumane treatment
of people. So please don't keep repeating this absurdity.
And as for what arrangements the government may or may not
make with Malaysia in the future - we have to wait and see
as to its "humanity." It certainly has to be a better arrangement
than the horror that was the "Pacific Solution."

Dear Individual,

You state that Lemming, starts with L
like Leftie. And C stands for Cautious -
like Conservative?

Nah.

Liberal, also starts with L.

And as for C standing for Cautious -
well it also stands for Calamity,
and Catastrophe, and Cancer, as well
as Careless, Clique, Cad, Cacophony,
Cadaver, Carcass, Capitulate, and of
course - Carp, Cabal, Cactus, and
calculating - and let's not forget -
Cain!

I still prefer Labor, Learned,
Liberty, Legend, Luminosity, Library,
Laureate, Law, Life, Laud, Lion,
Lesson, Librarian, License, Lord,
and lets not forget Leader!
to what you've got on offer.

Lexi,

You said: "as to its "humanity." It certainly has to be a better arrangement than the horror that was the "Pacific Solution.""

Pity the high court and most refugee advocates disagreed with you.

Even then the "Horror" of 4 people in detention in 2007 compares very favorably to 4000 in detention now, with nearly 1000 children, and many people having been detained for 18 months or longer.

Lexi, stop being a hypocrite. Put your hand on your heart and tell me you support the Malaysian solution.

Dear SM,

I can't put my hand on my heart and tell you that I support
the Malaysian Solution. I think that you know that.
And much as I enjoy our differences of opinion - I think
that there is one thing we can both agree on and that is -
this issue of asylum seekers is not about to go away any
time soon. That finger-pointing by us "outsiders," in
the political scheme of things is not going to solve anything.
We can only hope that no matter who gets into government in
the future - they will be able to sit down and try to work
out a feasible solution that will be acceptable to all
Australians - regardless of their political inclinations.
I know that's a big ask - but wouldn't it be great - if
politicians supported good reforms - regardless of who
suggested them. (And I won't mention the Malaysian Solution
again, if you don't continue to mention the Pacific Solution).

Lexi,

The difference is that I can put my hand on my heart and say that I believe that the Pacific solution needs to be implemented, and is more humane than the stuff up we have presently.

Dear SM,

We all know that's what you say you believe.
You probably also believe that repetition is
a sign of intelligence.

repetition is a sign of intelligence.
Lexi,
that is one poor reason for Labor to keep on stuffing up.

btw. your earlier reply although way off the mark was in fact very clever. :-)

Dear Individual,

Ask yourself this question -
which party is famous for its
repetition? ("No, No, No!") and
repetitive finger-pointing,
demonization, and
condemnation et cetera - when they've
got nothing else. Go on,
take an intelligent guess.

"You probably also believe that repetition is a sign of intelligence."

Not as obviously as you do Lexi.

Let's see. Continuously repeating the same mistakes: Labor

Australian of the year, psychiatrist, Patrick McGorry does not
agree with your opinion
Lexi,
So, because another academic says something all other sober & logic thinkers are wrong ?
That is exactly the attitude which is sending this country into a spiral dive. let's hope it's not too late to apply opposite rudder.

Dear SM and Indy,

OK. I'm calling a truce - simply because we're just
going around in circles and I'm finding it all
rather pointless anway. No one here gets any brownie
point - none of us is right or wrong - we just see
things from our own perspectives and I guess life
experiences and political inclinations. They're
only opinions anyway and in the big scheme of things
won't really change much.

So Gentlemen - have a Joyous Christmas, and be Happy.
And may Santa bring you what you most desire (Iknow,
don't say it!).

As I see the thread coming to its close, may I use a few keystrokes I said I wouldn't to extend my Christmas wishes to all. We are at least the types to be concerned for our nation enough to post here, even if we may only have an impact upon eachother's thinking. Great movements begin with the might of the pen (keyboard).

As we enjoy the good fortune of being Australians this Christmas, let's not forget those who seek to join us. Given the choice of fleeing from their own countries or Nauru, it is clear that boat-people are only too happy to be taken to the latter and will fight not to be allowed to be. I have failed to find a single official Gov't source of information to highlight this, but provide a link to what well sums up the information regarding SIEV's (Suspected Illegal Entry Vessel) 1 to 12. You can get some idea of how these people feel about going to Nauru in the full knowledge that that's where they'll end up, and how their reception by the Australian Navy may have impacted upon the minds of those considering the boat journey up until 2008 that might result in them ending up there. Forget not SIEV X as the anniversary of the Christmas Island tradgedy also passes.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/11/07/the-consequences-of-turning-boats-back-siev-towback-cases/

Merry Xmas all.

And as LF suggested, let us not forget the Xmas island disaster, and the 350 others that have been lost at sea since 2008.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Disasters like Christmas Island - was I believe what
prompted the government's Malaysian Solution. Their
concern was to stop people taking these risky boat
journeys. This got enormous coverage in the media
so you surely must be aware of it and Minister Bowen
has been saying this continuously for the past twelve
months.

Merry Christmas to you as well!

Disasters like this happened under the Howard government which led to the pacific solution and the boats stopping.

Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Nice use of a quote SM.
However it steps around truth as if it just fell from the southern end of a north bound Bull.
As I have said Labor got it very wrong.
I suspect they wanted to be kinder, but forgot a basic.
It can not be ignored that Basic.
Those folk want the better life Australia offers.
They, unlike most of their country men can pay for the trip.
And another basic.
The trip is a gamble, but making it easier, like on shore processing , equals more arrivals.
AGAIN but understanding it will not change your stand, HIGH COURT rulings, [we should deport those lawyers] is said to have stopped Nehru being used.

Sadly it has not sopped your party from using the issue.
A tasteless and needless avoidance of finding an answer.
History will blame the ALP for giving a win to minority's.
But your side is far worse, it is in the power they hold to fix this issue.
Australia is but a dust rag in the hands of your Negative LEADER.
PS please do not let your kids wed a Lawyer.

The coalition have always supported off shore processing, and offered Juliar a compromise that would have permitted off shore processing in nearly 150 countries. (which was more than her governing partners would do.)

Juliar did not even try and negotiate, she just said NO, even against the advice of her immigration minister. She has a myriad of off shore processing options, but would rather throw the compromise back and try and blame the coalition for less than 100% co operation.

The Australian public is not buying it.

Dear SM,

We are well aware of the disasters that happened
under the Howard Government. That's why he lost
his own electorate and the election. People were
indeed no longer buying what he and his party
were selling. That was also why his successor
Mr Abbott was not able to succeed in forming a
government no matter how hard he tried. And has been
trying, very trying, ever since.

As for what people will be
buying in 2013? Who knows - it's early days yet.
However, a strategy based on complete and total
negativity may have some advantages but it
inevitably suffers in terms of relevance as
decisions are taken, the outcomes are positive, and
the public debate moves on.

As I wrote on another thread - when you think you find
yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause
and reflect. The object of life is not to be on the side
of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the
ranks of the ignorant.

Lexi truth drives me to only agree in part with that last line.
I agree with the ignorant part.
But think with me, majority's must rule, even if we must educate them.
Constant control by minority's would , in time, believe me, see dictator ships installed.
There lays the greens enemy.
That fact, AUSTRALIANS know how bad Abbott is.
But more of them can put up with him than Gillard.
We will not get traction till she is gone.

Note SM has told us of country's who have not signaled they wish to take ANY BOAT PEOPLE.
Rather cute but not unexpected.
SM,any chance you are John Howard? Abbott's dad, Pynes?

In arriving late but reading what has gone on before - all I can say is you know you are in trouble when even devout followers undermine their preferred political party. This goes for all parties.

Said it before and will say it again. Malaysian 'solution' would have curbed the boats, Naru would have encouraged more. What we have is by far more humane, but encourages even more.

Dear bonmot,

Welcome back! I'll go with the "more humane,"
anytime - because not matter what is done
it won't discourage "more" from coming.
The law of averages and the global situation
tends to indicate that.

I guess that the estimated 400 dead at sea since 2008 would indicate that what we have now is more humane?

Dear SM,

I don't know old chap. Ask your Leader that question.
He may be able to explain to you why he's said No
to the government's attempts to rectify the situation
(as we've discussed previously). Your continued repetition
of this mantra - only results in us going round in
circles again and again. Come up with something new for
a change. Or go check in with your boss.

It's time for SM to get his/her own blog, perhaps calling it "The Complete Half-Truth" or "Blog of Belligerent Believers in SM's BS in the Face of All Evidence to the Contrary".

Anybody wasting their time trying to get this guy/gal to concede a single incontrovertible point of fact should instead get out and do their Christmas shopping, go for a jog, wash the dog, do some gardening, anything, and leave SM to it unless, that is, you actually enjoy chasing rabbits down burrow-holes or being duped in pea-and-thimble.

Get out while you still can bonmot

Hi Lexi, thanks.

Not often I disagree but you say "no matter what is done it won't discourage more from coming."

Let me put it this way, telling all and sundry that Australia will process their applications for refugee status on the mainland will not discourage more from coming, it will encourage them.
As the current statistics show.

Similarly, processing applications on Naru would have the same effect - jump on a boat to Christmas Island, Ashmore or the mainland, then get a free and safer ride to Naru, stay a while to be processed, then end up here anyway.

I'm not sure I understand the global situation as you have put it - my understanding is that Australia is relatively unique just because of our geography.

.

SM
Perhaps you should read things in context - see my response to Lexi.

.

Luciferase,
Thanks for your advice. Perhaps Graham can provide 'The Shadow' with his own blog on The Domain?

Dear bonmot,

My apologies for not expressing things correctly.
I was in the middle of doing something else and
got side-tracked. I meant to say that refugees
will not be stopped by the solutions we have
on offer currently - as a result of the troublesome
global situations that exist in the world today
causing people to flee their countries and regimes.
As Luciferase suggests - we should leave this
thread and I agree. See you on another one.
SM should be given his own blog - where he can
preach to the converted.

Lexi and LF can kid themselves that the Pacific solution didn't work, but with more people arriving last week than in 5 years of the pacific solution, only the most powerful self delusion (or herbs) can sustain that position.

If you two want to form a new group where you can agree on this fantasy feel free. Here are a few more: PS the earth is really flat. The world trade center was destroyed by the US government, etc.

The coalition offered Juliar assistance for off shore processing, but she said NO.

We should not feed this bloke, he gets joy out of being the Geoffry Boycott of politics.
Boycott was an English cricketer, boring but well able to defend his wicket.
Even his side found him a bore.
May be a Little of Doctor Grace in Shadow Minister, an undoubted great cricketer, he famously on being clean bowled told the bowler this.
Son they came here to see me bat not you bowl.
Recent polls had been making small moves back to Gillard and even smaller to Labor.
This was evidence people are aware of the true state of this problem.
As has been the case so very often , far to often, Gillard lost all forward movement by insulting Rudd.
I rest, confident this issue will soon damage Abbott more than any one.

Belly,
me thinks you and Lexi live in hopes. The issue of the illegal boat people will not go away. If Gillard is disposed by Rudd, he will be rightly branded as the one who began the influx of illegals.

If I were opposition leader, I would take the kid gloves off and brand the illegals for what they are, con artists, shysters, shonks, liars and gate crashers. It is the influx of these that means other genuine refugees have to spend years more in squalid camps.

If the illegals were genuine they would fly here and put their case to DIAC. But no, they prefer to pay far more and enter over the back fence and this stupid government embrasses them. Ask why they pay more to come by boat.

Over 2 hundred of the illegals have died trying to get here, since 2008, and that blood is on Rudds and Labor hands.

Dear Banjo,

You have no idea of what I think.

They are merely your summations.

However let me say this much, the author Susan
Metcalfe (The Pacific Solution) sums things up
quite fairly:

"While Opposition Leader Tony Abbott likes to cry
havoc each time the Government twitches - lets not
forget that detention centre riots, self-harm, and
tabloid sensationalism were just as prevalent during
the Coalition's last spell in Government."

She adds:

"As boats keep coming and battle lines blur in the fog
of political war, the time is ripe to sort through the
past decade's irrational policymaking and offer a more
logical set of policies, driven by the needs of human
beings rather than political fear."

Lexi,
But I do have an idea of what you think. For example, not long ago you were advocating that we provide the transport for the illegals from Indonesia to Aus, so they would not be at risk on the boat voyage.

In your last post you apparently agree with some author, Quote:
"As boats keep coming and battle lines blur in the fog
of political war, the time is ripe to sort through the
past decade's irrational policymaking and offer a more
logical set of policies, driven by the needs of human
beings rather than political fear."

I agree with that sentence as well, but the needs of the human beings that our politicians should consider is Australian citizens, who are being taken for a ride by the illegals. Far tougher action is required so that the illegals will not want to come, and I have a few ideas along those lines.

I rest, confident this issue will soon damage Abbott more than any one.
Belly,
Wrong as usual. It's the utter lack of foresight by the ALP & its supporters who will do more & more damage to this country. Until you come to realise that blind loyalty is about as bad as the lack of integrity that's so blatantly on display. Yes, all sides of politics are guilty of the hypocrisy of searching for mileage. What only one side of politics is guilty of is selling this country out to anyone & anything just to be in power & it's not the crowd led by Abbott. Remember politics is about looking after the country not wrecking it.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/west-australian-premier-urges-asylum-consensus/story-fn59niix-1226238596679
This link is hard to ignore.
Its is from the unchallenged most popular leader in Australia federal or state.
Some, as to be expected, will find only his short jab at Gillard worth while.
It is a crafted sorry mate, to Abbott.
His true message, from deep within conservative Australia is,
Let government govern , and if it truly is the failure, *it is not*, then the blame falls on them.
In opposition if given the power Labor acts like this, my blind combative Friends will scream the roof down?
Strange but true.

Dear Belly,

I've stated this previously, and I'll state it again
here:

The time is ripe to sort through the past decade's
irrational policymaking on asylum seekers -
and offer a more logical set of policies driven
by the needs of human beings
rather than political fear

Belly, Lexi

It is time for the past 4 years of hopeless policy on asylum seekers to be scrapped and a compromise to be reached based on tried and proven solutions.

I truly believe that if the coalition gave Juliar what she wanted, Labor would find some hare brained way of stuffing it up. The coalition has only this one bargaining chip to ensure that a workable compromise is reached in Australia's interests, as Labor can no longer be trusted.

Lexi this time I disagree with you as much as SM.
I know our Friend ship is strong enough for me to be honest.
Politics, winning office, holding it, introducing changes, is no game.
It just does not happen to party's that let emotions over rule voters wants and needs.
Nice thoughts about helping poor refugees, not all are, on shore processing, lets cuddle them all.
Are dreams, drive in to some parts of my states City, feel, LEXI TRUE, hate!
This year maybe the first suicide bomb in our country, if so I can tell you it will be in my City.
NO! not all, watch csteele insult me, but know!
Australians WILL NEVER ELECT, NOT EVER, ANY PARTY NOT COMMITTED TO OF SHORE PROCESSING.
SM? find that link read it then go to the drum on ABC web site read its related story both our leaders are of little worth.
Yours worse than any in its long history.
Are you Tiny Tony Abbott? your NEGATIVITY IF NOT challenges his.
And as in his case are only remotely linked to truth.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Let's look at simple logic.

Measuring distances Indonesia to Christmas Island
is 400 km.

Christmas Island to Darwin is 2,800 kms.

Darwin to Nauru is 4,200 kms.

Which makes Christmas Island to Nauru 7,000 kms.

Christmas Island to Malaysia is 1,600 kms. Which is
1,200kms from the point in Indonesia from which the
boats have departed.

Now basing the cost of flying refugees to Nauru
against the cost of flying them to Malaysia which
do you think is more economical?

Sending the boat people 1,200 kms beyond the point from
which they started in Indonesia to a country through
which many of them have already travelled surely must
be a deterrant and a lot more economical to our taxpayer
then sending them to Nauru.

Looking after them in Nauru or Malaysia will cost the
government much the same.

So what in your estimation do you think is the most
sensible solution?

Belly,

I read the link, and while I agree with Barnett that a compromise is needed, I don't agree that a knee jerk capitulation is the correct response. Nauru was only one component of the success of the pacific solution, the other was the TPVs.

The Malaysian solution was a dud from the start. Even ignoring that the human rights component was more extreme than the Pacific solution, the 4 year quota of 800 was filled in the first 3 months after the solution was announced.

That Juliar screwed over Indonesia with the live cattle export ban hasn't helped with Indonesia effectively turning a blind eye to the racket.

Lexi,

Sending people to Malaysia cannot be justified with a smaller travel cost, as each person sent to Malaysia costs about $400 000 to resettle 5 extra asylum seekers. And on top of this as there is nothing stopping them making the short journey back to Indonesia and getting on another boat.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Why would they get on another boat if they know that
they will be sent back to where they started from each
time? BTW: What is the cost per person to house asylum
seekers in Nauru?

When humans first left the caves and started to live as community's we bought in our DNA other things.
It must, to most of us, be clear we bought the wish to defend our camps and villages.
And rules to see we lived with civility in those camps, towns, villages.
I think it remains part of our DNA/ built in self preservation .
This matter, fights our internal hard wired wishes.
All views have value,we said that too, for the same reasons I think.
But would our camps, modern day but still camps, would our community be livable,able to survive if majority views got rolled every time.

NEGATIVE MAN is using this issue, our built in fears and concerns, to miss lead us all.
He, his followers, want offshore processing, Labor,dragged by the camps shouted wishes wants it too.
But Greens in bed with the strangest bed fellow of Bob Browns life Tony Abbott, are challenging the wishes of the camp dwellers.
With the help of some, seemingly unaware, they fight them selves.

A day hopefully, will come, when we are able to both see minority views, take them on board, not be forced to consume them.
We,if left to resolve refugees without pressure from ill informed, could spend every dollar we do in this endless problem.
Making a life, at home, not here for boat people.

Lexi,

The cost of housing people at Nauru was more expensive per person (not by much), but as a total it is a tiny fraction of what the present on shore processing costs.

Only 43% of those going to Nauru achieve asylum in Australia, compared to 99% under the present policy.

If LYING woman could 'fess up to her failures and re instate the pacific solution then the boats would stop.

SM,

Again with the half-truths.

The cost per person for Nauru was $600,000 which is
more than your claim of "just a little bit more."
Plus, it was actually 61% who were resettled in
Australia not 43% as you claim.

As experts have pointed out - your average people
smuggler would not have to be all that bright to be
able to sell to a potential client that there was
a high chance of success in finishing
up in Australia after spending some time on a
Pacific Island - rather than in camps in Indonesia
or Malaysia. They would jump at the chance being
offered to them.

I won't say any more to you. There's no point.

Lexi,

You are spouting half truths. Only in the latter stages of Nauru, when there were relatively few people did the costs escalate to $600 000 per person.

Of those sent to Nauru only 43% were resettled in Australia. The figure you are quoting is the % of those accepted as refugees that were sent to Australia. So stop lying.