I am sick to death of Morris Iemma and Peter Debnam throwing around promises they can’t keep. I believe that they should be pressured to address the question of procedural fairness in relation to the handling of complaints of neglect or misconduct against Government workers/departments?

The complaint handling process is set up to cover up and protect the Government at any cost. When this calculated process is used those that you allege are responsbile are expected and required to handle the complaints against themselves, and those in positions of higher power are expected by Law to accept whatever they are told and never ask questions or challenge.

They are all bound by a Code of Conduct that forbids them from publicaly anything negative about the Department or the Government. If they do they risk being destroyed, they loose their jobs and reputation.

There is Legislation in the Ombudsmans Act 1974 Section 31B (2) that says they are not permitted to 'ask questions about' allegations of PARTICULAR CONDUCT. Particular conduct is not defined in the Act but I was told by telephone by the Office of the Ombudsman and the Police Integrity Commission that they were not permitted to ask questions about moral misconduct, corruption or conspiracies to cover up? They didn't have the jurisdiction! It seems nobody has the jurisdiction. Government workers are totally protected by Law no matter what they do from having to be held accountable. No wonder people have taken to calling them "THEM!"

We need to devise a complaint handling process that aims to get rid of those that are failing in their duty of care at all levels as then the standards of services would improve without the need to spend too much money. At the moment it seems that the more incompetent and corrupt you are the more chance you have of being promoted instead of sacked.

Money isn't what makes the most difference, we need integrity and accountability. Money will just make some people richer, it doesn't necessarily change things for the better.

unless you make a choice for change you get what you get

talk is talk

my word is my word

so thats it

www.tapp.org.au

As bad as both sides have been we are not going to see another party come to the leadership roll.
Labor will win another term, and we may just get a better government from it.
The ALP leader will if re elected have for the first time a mandate to put new faces on front bench seats, he will do so fast in my opinion.
I think we should again and again ask what has happened to Australian Liberalism?
A very real chance exists that a split within Liberal ranks may be the birth place of the next party with momentum in Australia.

you think its a win no you are wrong

it is just a protest no win

people change from one protest vote to the other now they have a choice now that would be a win

A big win for the people and not just party's with party mentality.

that is what you do not wish to see. No win just a protest nothing more.

www.tapp.org.au

Tapp I am unsure if your last post was aimed at me? who ever wins on Saturday I can not bring myself to see it as a protest vote.
Those who vote other than the 2 main party's may be put into the protest vote bag.
But to what end? is it likely other than in the upper house those elected by protest votes can change anything?
Some very marginal people have found a seat in upper houses and I doubt many have support of even near most voters.
Labor if elected must get back on track, I expect they are planning already to do just that.
Conservatives owe it too Australia ALL Australians to stop the bitter internal fighting that has taken the Liberalism out of them, and put extreme right in the deck chairs on the titanic.
If in this environment small parts and independents can not make great inroads we can rest assured they never will.
I will vote ALP in NSW this weekend.

Betty, the ALP are crooks. For over 12 years what they have done is spent our taxpayers money on setting up a system that ensures that anybody who complains pays the price and public servants/Government representatives who fail in their duty of care are protected and promoted.

The investigatory bodies have together fine tuned the process to ensure that you cant win or ever have an issue dealt with properly. They have Legislation in place that means that they cannot ask questions about bias, misconduct or corruption. The whole thing stinks. IN the Ombudsman's website there are sections in relation to how Public Servants can protect themsevles against complainants. All they need to do is discredit the complainant and close the matter internally. It can never be opened again. The Ombudsman is supposed to serve all the people, not just public servants.

I have yesterday receieved a response from the Ombudsman to my formal complaint lodged last year in July 2006. They only ever 'respond to complaints' with the information they are told and then close the matter. There is no investigation that takes place and they are required to believe everything that they are told by their own people, no matter what. It is irrelevant if the evidence you provide shows what they say as lies because they are not allowed to question it.

You have nowhere to go to get procedural fairness and justice. The system is corrupted and the process has been designed for that purpose and Labor is just scum, they dont care about children.

It is just so wrong and unfair and needs to be changed. The little people should also have access to justice. Does anybody know how to challenge the Ombudsmans, or are they seen as some sort of God?

Betty has not posted in this thread jolanda I however have, my sign in is Belly.
A basic understanding of your views is called for, do you truly believe the NSW ALP is totally corrupt?
And have you so little faith in voters that you think the fact they will in all probability return this government has no impact on conservatism in this state and country?
Yes some idiots can be found in both party's without lifting the carpet.
And yes like it or not the present ALP leader had the poisoned chalice passed to him by the Carr Treasurer.
But given the chance this leader will put his own ministers in place next week.
And assisted by the worst opposition in this states history get a chance to get this state back on track.
The question remains, why are conservatives not electable in Australian states?
And another question must be asked over and again.
Why can some not respect the voters right to vote as they wish?

Yes Belly (sorry about the wrong spelling of your name) I do believe that the ALP is totally corrupt.

The process and procedures used to deal with allegations against them mean that they have no choice but to be corrupt as they are not permitted to ask questions in relation to "particular conduct" and they are required to accept and believe whatever tale/story is presented to them by members of their own without question or challenge.

They are not required to afford the General Public any respect or value them enough to consider that what they say might just actually be the truth.

No good can ever come from that.

You state "At the moment it seems that the more incompetent and corrupt you are the more chance you have of being promoted instead of sacked."
That is precisely why they are picked and elevated because of their criminal attributes and their ability to shed crocadile tears for the very victims they have created. Behind the scenes the media refer to the politicians as jelly babies, or bottles of sauce that can be poured in any direction commanded. Let us not forget, the media barons have had billions of dollars shovelled their way by the politicians of all stripes; trully staggering amounts, at the direct expense of the majority over the last two decades. A sensational political exposure in the media is not done for any principled reason but to whip the politicians into line. Even here, with media exposures such as politicians claiming $330,000 expenses for three months overseas jaunts, this is still minor exposures or small change. What would happen if people got an inkling of the really big odious criminal issues carried out on a virtual daily basis in parliament? Sex scandal exposures are a well used ploy or veil to disguise an underlying political crisis to dissipate heat and divert attention outwards. For instance, the Clinton sex scandal was whipped up by the media barons and a section of big business that was highly disgruntled and 'gung ho' for gutting social welfare programs, democratic rights, and using US military might overseas to loot global resources. Clinton was viewed as too slow in carrying through the 'new world agenda' and a political highjacking took place. How else to explain Bush? Known widely as the idiot in the White House through his daily stumblings, an ignoramus with an arrogant smirk, elevated out of nothing into the most powerful position in the heart of world capitalism. Even his smirk undermines his daily deceits and manipulative attempts.

You state "pressure politics for what is fair."
But that is what workers have been doing for the last hundred years; going on strike to pressure the bosses or politicians. That old reformist perspective has collapsed. After a hundred years,including enormous sacrifices, where has it left workers today? Workers face new industrial laws that are far harsher and more exploitive than anything they have known. As well, global organizations scouring the world for ever cheaper labor and resource materials. Howard too has prepared with 40 changes to the anti terror laws passed in secret behind the backs of workers. These laws will be used to whisk workers away in the dead of night without laying charge and for anyone else who protest. Already these charges have been used this very week against Sydney University and Melbourne University students protesting.

Reformism - reform your ways, is a blind alley today because the bosses and politicians are not granting concessions but taking back all previous hard won conditions. Over the whole century one thing has remained consistent: the working class has been systematically excluded from political power by pressure or protest politics. Who are you protesting too, the case hardened criminals and scoundrels in parliament? Do they understand what they are doing, of course? Will they listen, NO?
The protest leaders act to let off steam, a left safety valve. Many of the protest leaders have their parliamentary career mapped out. Their economic reformist perspective is nationalism and are hostile to the struggle for the international unification of the working class against global capital and the outmoded nation-state system. History has demonstrated that a break from bourgeois politics and the development of socialist consciousness are not spontaneous processes—even during times of great political and social upheaval—but require a conscious struggle by Marxists to construct a revolutionary leadership in the working class.

Jolanda your problems with accountability and the ombudsman should not be confused with the party in government.
I go on record saying this election tomorrow is not yet won, Labor is by far the best of 2 very bad choices but is not yet elected.
A protest vote is just as much a chance as it was for Wayne Goss or Kennett.
Now Accountability, it is in the hands first of public servants and they do not understand the word.
22 years as a government worker in NSW I know what it is like to search for accountability.
Ombudsman is a separate from government position and sometimes a chance exists they may ignore the lies from public servants about your case, if it is true.
May I suggest a case needing airing can sometimes get sunlight with oppositions? or the press?
Yes minister, any minister and form of government is not a TV story it is based on real life.
The ALP is not corrupt, once and if, back in office some foolish heads will roll and a balance return to Labor government in NSW.

Gday johncee 1945 that was the year of my birth, so I have some time in the university of life.
I can not support a view that claims if you do not think like me you are corrupt.
Most gee, nearly all workers/ people in the western world support capitalism.
So very few would leave the west to live in north Korea or even Cuba,as a trade union official I am sure my members think as I do.
In winning elections, in having a say in social outcomes , voter numbers are the only currency that matters.
A new Capitalism is a chance, a caring sharing hand up not a hand out capitalism.
How? get involved in a party that can be elected to govern and be heard.
It is of little worth to forever support ideas that are unsaleable in the market day we call elections.
Bush Howard and those who support them love devisions in our side of politics.

Belly the Ombudsman was set up by the Government. If the Government set up the corruption watchdogs and investiatory bodies to watch the public, to ensure that they don't and cant expose anybody, and they use Legislation to protect THEMSELVES then they are failing in their duty of care.

I am sorry, but the Labor Government is corrupt, that is what I have learned after 7 years of trying to get protection and Justice for my children. I didn't just wake up one morning with this idea. It devastated my family to find that the system was like this. I was naieve, I believed that the Labor Government would do the right thing. What a fool was I.

Ombudsmen and women have flogged the government that appointed them many times.
The whole idea behind the post is the independent nature of the position.
Is it time to review your case? or the way you present it? even see it?,you will not find an ombudsman surely that is under the control of one side of politics?
It is childish to try to convince even the most rusted on conservative that this whole government is corrupt.
Take this challenge[ only the truth matters] take your case to the opposition! if they do not use it you must question your view of it.

See Belly here is the problem. I have questioned the Opposition and their response was that they don't have the power or resources to investigate individual complaints and that it was a matter for the State Government.

Just because a system refuses to acknowledge or deal fairly with a complaint doesn't mean that you discount the validity of the complaint, instead we should be questioning the validity of the complaint handling systems and whether Ministers are a waste of money and space.

If they dont investigate or even look at what you present how can they possibly know?

I have been a whistle blower as an employee of the NSW government.
And I understand your frustration.
It is not going to be one bit different in any state under any form of government.
The prime reason for existing in any department of any government is not to serve the public.
It is [I truly believe] to cover up and keep hidden the total failure to understand the job at hand.
Within my work history in a government department under both forms of government .
The management always said outdoor workers knew their jobs better than anyone.
While this is true the outdoor workers who did not know more than that quality of management would be of no use in any job.
At times people like you come forward with information that threatens the status quo and more energy is spent containing you than searching for the truth .
That is not corruption its the ongoing system we do not have the guts to change.
And it hurts strangely politicians as much as us.

Belly covering up bias, victimisation, manipulation, fraud and misconduct is corruption.

I have a letter from the Ombudsman on my blog in relation to requests for a formal complaint into my families allegations.

http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/

It is an interesting read. I have also drafted a response that I am trying to put together.

If the system is designed to cover up fraud, misconduct and corruption, then they are corrupt.

You state Belly up "I can not support a view that claims if you do not think like me you are corrupt."
1. How dishonest, where do I state that or imply that?
There is a public duty to expose and fight against the Labor and Liberal politicians criminal activities. Everybody has that responsibility, most certainly, those who disagree with criminal activities. Contained are huge implications for family and society. What do we leave our children to the mercy of this vicious thieving layer? Their policies dominate our lives enormously, particularly economic policies. Wide layers in society are getting driven into poverty with no end in sight. Tell us they do not have their thieving hands in the public purse and around our necks, as well as handing over public assets to their cronies? What about their intention to destroy 20,000 essential jobs? Is this how they repay society? Will that decision run the hospitals down further, create suffering and cost lives? Does that decision have implications for Paramedics, emergency services, fire brigades, ambulances,teachers, academics, electricity infrastructure,and the trains, yep they are putting the iron heel into all. They will keep the taxes. They wrecked the mental hospitals and threw the patients out. The dental services they starved of funding then privatised. Warragamba dam they gave to their mates in Sydney Water. Childcare was handed over to their sidekicks. There is not enough room to list ALL, but the big picture is to degrade and debase society and keep the taxes. What about the upcoming war in Iran they intend starting? Belly you have more issues with me than them! You might also like to think over why workers have left the trade unions in droves. Is it because the trade union beauracrats have done the dirty work of Labor and Liberal governments for at least 75 years as well as selling out everything workers fought for? What is the political link that unites the treachous trade unions and governments? Could it be they are all agents of the bankers, landlords, and capitalists?

Belly you state, "Most gee, nearly all workers/ people in the western world support capitalism."
You mean the trade unions and politicians support capitalism and their politics are nationalism, racism and the defence of capitalism. Expressed as 'the bosses have every right and workers have none and 'capitalism at all costs.' Their treachery is a consequence of those politics. Ever heard the trade union officials and Laborites called the 'labor lieutenants of capitalism'? The first time was 92 years ago when they sent workers off to a war beneficial for the war industry and dividing up the world for 'big business.' Workers sacrificed their sons and their own lives along with limbs whilst compelled to shoot other workers. Worker shooting worker, another way of seeing it is 'pitting worker against worker' to 'divide and conquer', 'divide and steal.' The trade unions and politicians knew what war is about. The big lie they exaggerated was "a war to end all wars" that is, until the next war was essential.

As to workers supporting capitalism, why then, would workers ever go on strike? Are they not striking against capitalism? Didn't they overthrow capitalism in 1917 only to have the power usurped by the Stalinist beauracracy? The power was stolen off them. Didn't workers take the road to power in Spain in 1936 against capitalism, but were defeated? Marxists have always maintained who ever owns the means of production owns the ideas in society. It is through those ideas a small ruling class rules, a handfull. Those ideas oppress workers, ideas are very powerful, and make modern slaves out of workers. As well, it is not what this or that worker thinks but what workers as a whole will be compelled to do. From out of its fiery furnace of this system, this system itself produces its own gravedigger a revolutionary class.

It is of little value debating with the far left, I question why I do it so often.
Then I remember I am from that part of left of center politics that values the chance that government gives us to help workers and those in need.
Governments will always be elected by most who vote,I will never support any form of imposed government.
And the ALP is as far left as Australia ever will go, and sometimes not even that far.
So my path is not too far away from the voters.
Union? my union is one of our biggest,and my members are my mates, we are not in the union movement finding a membership lost because we are too far right, so very childlike that claim!
Think with me ,if the lefts claims are true , workers vote Liberal because Labor is too conservative! outstanding rubbish isn't it?
And leave unions because we sell them out!oh stop laughing this is funny!
We must have lost a great marching number of leftists who forget to vote on election day!
If only they would vote!
You could get rid of buggers like me who from our faction gave Australia every state government and will return the federal government to us.
No shame! proudly and honestly! I hold the view the extreme left are more a threat to me and my country and my members my party than conservatives.
Only however if they can get the lost voters to show up at the polls.
In an electorate that did not want greens preferences to go to Labor yesterday 1 in 3 preferences leaked back to us! rats in the ranks?
No Labor is the only real chance for left of center voters.

You state, "Union? my union is one of our biggest,and my members are my mates."
Well, we know your mates are charged big union fees, but lets examine how the union looks after "mates."
What about being explicit, have the trade unions done the dirty work of the Liberal and Labor governments for decades? Please explain in what way, Howard could implement one of his filthy anti-worker policies if not for the treacherous trade union officials? It would be utterley laughable, this nonentity, if he came into the workplace and tried out a sellout; he would probably get strung up if he tried. Moreover, the unions tell workers "he is too strong" but in reality, the unions prop up him up by keeping workers divided - and refuse to mobilize the workforce.
In 1985, what about the ALP/ACTU ACCORD the trade unions to a man signed to undermine workers conditions and jobs. The ACCORD was the unions stinking deal that took wage indexation off workers; the greatest transference of wealth this century from the pockets of workers into the banks and bosses. Tell us that isn't so? Then the union beauracracy to a man sold out the compensation dispute. This particular sellout should go down as one of the most treacherous and swinish betrayals in history. Along with a reduced insurance cover today, that betrayal actually encouraged the bosses to lessen safety precautions. The insurance companies were very greatful to the ACTU as they made hundreds of millions of dollars extra income.
In this period workers were paid in cash until the ACCORD directed all wages to be paid directly into the banks. The bankers cheered and after a short period added service charges, now they get a slice of millions of workers wages, week in week out.

Part 2. Belly. Then the ALP/ACTU advised the employers to "restructure their workforce" to trim down any excess staff. In other words, the employers were actually encouraged to carry out retrenchments and boost wage exploitation. And for workers who stayed on they were saddled with the work of those who went, forced to do the work of two people. Many thousands of factories were "restructured" according to the ACTU jargon and plan. Where workers called mass meetings to protest the job destruction, the ACTU stepped in to isolate every dispute, weaken any resolve of workers and then push through a betrayal. That took some real skilled swinishness but the trade union officials were up to it.
The last GENUINE payrise for most workers was about 1982. The CEO's have had many hundreds, as well as being substantial increases. The trade union beauracrats too have had many rises whilst their members have gone without. Then there was that ACTU stinking deal that there would be no collective bargaining and every workplace had to go it alone. In this way, workers bargaining power could be undermined and weakened. Whilst workers have struggled often trying to make ends meet 'money bags' slept soundly at night counting the tinkle of gold conducted by the ALP/ACTU. Belly, I suppose you pretend that the trade unions do not sell workers out. Or do you cover up for them and 'set your mates up' for their treachery? It is impossible of counting the number of sellouts the ACTU have carried out but it must be substantial over the decades. As I am sure you are aware that all real wealth comes out of the backs of workers the role the trade union officials played has been to short-change workers. They are truly agents of the capitalists.

See? my point exactly it s not worth while debating with the Wil Robinson's of this world sorry extreme left.
A claim that any group who are protesting about anything are from the brotherhood of the very left is made once crowd numbers get to two, even if it is a group of drunks wanting the pub to stay open.
Only one way exists to put pressure on politicians, at the polling booths.
Such pressure was put on both sides yesterday in NSW.
The results will surface in days the NSW government will see unseated time wasters and fools even rats in the ranks go from the front bench and within months it will be much liked.
Liberalism was reborn yesterday it may not know it yet but debate will soon drive Howard's new right out of office and his appointments too.
NSW has a second in charge of conservatives who could turn his party around in just a few years.
His task has been made harder by yesterdays chance given to a good Labor leader to get it right.
That chance will not be miss used by him and makes conservatives rebirth more likely to start in another state.
But only after they understand John Howard has lead in the wrong direction, he is not the man he once was and it will not get better till after he leads his party to its train wreck in a quick sand of lies.
Election 2007 is his waterloo and the start of rebuilding his much damaged party.
Federal Labor will not miss use its mandate so it will be some time clearing the rubble for conservatives

John cee 1945 I will never understand why you think as you do and you will never understand me.
But in your post I find more to question the truth of than in ten hours of Howard's speech's.
My branch of my union stood alone , went outside the NSW ALP left it in fact to fight against the still dreadful crime against workers compensation .
The lefts appointed members of the house crossed the picket line to enter Parliament and vote to except the sell out of workers in this state.
And they say we are weak?
Not true it takes guts as a union official to highlight the very real danger to workers the very left are and always have been.
But your post says it for me.
I stand with pride in the middle of middle Australia, shoulder to shoulder with working class Australians who want nothing to do with the nightmare that is your dreams communism in any form.
And I will fight till my last breath for workers rights but no communist ever truly cared about true workers they after all are only a ladder to power for people like the leader of north Korea.
Workers united will never be defeated.

Belly, Workers go through a series of experiences drawing some crucial lessons. Questioning this precarious existence that resembles a violent madhouse. Our epoch too, is characterised by everlasting uncertainty. I looked around for an alternative perspective, as much to defend but more to take forward, the struggles of workers. I was a delegate the trade union officials got sacked. Why? for opposing their betrayals. The unions have become transformed from pressuring the bosses to pressuring workers for the return of conditions; another way the trade unions have clawed back conditions has been to take workers out on strike to lose - nice filth that method. Workers should never forget too, in the 1930's the ALP and ACTU dumped the economic crisis on the backs of workers. Something the ALP/ACTU would prefer workers to forget.
Far more than anything else, the trade unions from their inception were founded on a national reformist perspective that for todays needs has become obsolete and reactionary. The hideous White Australia policy originated in the trade unions. Protest politics or pressure politics - striking to apply pressure - doesn't work today.
Today life is dominated by global concerns, the IMF, World Banks, global capital, 'big business.' Who constantly, gouge and bruise the world for ever cheaper sources of labor and raw materials such as oil. And under this system that is a never ending battle, the unions cannot conquer. It is a race to the bottom with workers in one country or region working for ever cheaper labor, it becomes each against all that ultimately leads to war. Tensions are rising between the big powers and bigger wars are in the making expressed as Bush's "one war following another."
Now the real strength and fruit of the workers lies in the alternative to global corporations who are DOMINATED by profits. Profits control them prescribing their actions they take. To go forward first you need an alternative perspective, an international socialist program fighting for international solidarity and goods produced for peoples needs not profits. Genuine human relations replacing economic relations would mean an end to all wars.