ahhh gm
great stuff that one
it was in huge debt...[spent their workers pensions
and was tied up big by the mandated medical care of its retuired workers

so it goes bust..and every retired worker
who was accepting lower wages and pensions
cause of the feree medical insuance..get shafted

and the heads get a bailout and a clean sheet
and the people get the loss

the clever guys are so clever
paying off the low intrst banker bailout
with a four fold increase in intrest...now at 26%

so the clever bailout bond holders this time arround can double the debt in 4 more years[ie the debt is back where it was yesterday]

at some stage we must let capitalism
do what capitalism is suposed to do..buy up bargens..when other capitalists get greedy

sometime govt will let capitalism..do what its supposed to do
and not pick winners or bailoout capitalist..using high intrest ursury loans..

loaned from the very capitalists
its meant to be bailing out

its cheaper for govt to run these things
as a caretaker..that ensures woprkers got jobs
ensures workers got basic pay

ensures workers can kep paying basic bills
ensure consumers can consume

govt should l;evel the playing field
ensure its workers are educated..and healthy

govt should ensure services [basic services..are available to all

govts should provide basic services..
at a cost the people can afford

when capitaliasts enter health
then health costs double..tripple
just to make a proffit from others ill health

*Truth in discussions such as these
is rather subjective*

Nope Lexi, its all about the factual, like figures. Its
about understanding those figures and their ramifications.

It seems that your Eltham is qualified in philosophy, not
in how to run a business. Wishy washy ideology is not what
its about, when a company is bleeding to the tune of 15 million
a week.

Hasbeen is quite correct, the way Qantas were heading, the whole
Qantas show could have come to a stop, for their international
operation was already losing 200 million$ a year. It was only
Jetstar that has kept the operation afloat. Hardly a great position
to be in.

The next thing that it comes down to is our basic rights. I assume
you want full control over the money that you have in your bank
account. If the bank tellers union took some out, as their members
felt they were entitled to more money, you might be a little pissed
off. Yet you seem to think its fine for Qantas shareholders to
lose their money, because Qantas unions deem its a good idea for
their members.

If Qantas unions want to run the company, they are free to buy it
with their workers super fund money. Then they can pay themselves
whatever they wish and if they go broke, they can only blame
themselves.

Having a job does not entitle people to send the employer broke,
which is what Qantas unions, with their lack of business understanding, were in the process of doing.

Dear Hasbeen and Yabby,

We are in critical times and companies need to do a
reassessment of the relationship between labour
and capital, a reassessment which takes into
account the politics of industrial democracy,
profit and job sharing, and long term planning.

What we don't need is the "kick the worker today
and take the money tomorrow," attitude that comes
from many currently in managment.

The only way in which companies can work properly
is for management and the workforce to co-operate with
one another, not condemn one another.

The sad truth is condemnation is the only language
that some managers appear to understand. As Charles
Coleman, former director and CEO of Australian
Mining Company Peko-Wallsend Ltd, once stated:

"It isn't a matter for concilliation, it's a
matter for arbitration. We are not prepared to
conciliate."

Obviously the inevitable expansion of capital with its
attendant social inequality and natural destruction
brooks no interference and allows no moral judgements.

Once Qantas degenerates to off-shore operations it
will no longer be an Australian airline and will
undoubtedly lose the support of a large proportion
of Australian travellers who up until now
believed in supporting an Australian product.

BTW if you guys don't believe in blaming Alan Joyce's
goal of ensuring increasing profits for his company at
the expense of his workforce.
Why do you blame the workers for trying to ensure
their job security? Quid pro quo. Without the workforce
the company would not have been so successful to date.
And certainly CEO's being given ridiculous salary
increases at critical time does not win the support
of the travelling public on which the success of the
company depends. Plus the additional concern of plane
maintenance to date - is very worrying due to the fact
that the majority of work is not longer being done in
this country under Australia's high standards (hence the
various recent plane malfunctions).

cont'd ...

electrical wiring held together with sticky tape,
and stapled with metal office staplers does not\
inspire confidence.

Still you get what you pay for. Thank Heaven, a Qantas
plane hasn't crashed as yet - but when it does, and it
will - I trust that the company will be proud of Mr
Joyce's performance.

*Without the workforce
the company would not have been so successful to date.*

Without planes Lexi, it would not be going far either and
those planes are bankrolled by somebody, lots of them
mums and dads. They have no rights according to you?

But see, you base your information on uninformed bloggers,
rather then qualified and well informed journalists.
The huge pay rise is a heap of bollocks. It is exactly
detailed in this weekend's AFR, as is the pay of a number
of executives. It shows how little much of the daily press even,
bothers to inform itself. Suckers like you, then believe every
word.

Fact is that in take home pay, Joyce has actually suffered a
decrease. IF he can turn Qantas around, meets certain parameters
and actually make the shareholders a return for a change, he
will be paid a large bonus. That is a big IF. Once again, NO certain
pay rise for Mr Joyce.

Plenty of Qantas work on planes is being done in Australia. But
if overseas work was so bad, why arn't Singapore Airlines, Cathay,
Etihad, Emirates and all the rest, crashing due to bad maintenance?

Fact is that whilst many Australians like Qantas, when it comes to
actually buying tickets on overseas flights, 80% choose another
airline, because the tickets are cheaper, or they have more movies
on the videoscreen. I've had some people tell me that they prefer
overseas carriers, as the hosties and younger and more attractive.
I can just see what would happen, if Qantas decided to sack
staff for being too old!

No company can offer a 3 year jobs guarantee to workers, if
a business is losing 200 million a year. Workers jobs are only
as secure as is the business from customers and customers have
choices. If you wan't certainty, go work for the Govt. Only
they have the monopoly of wasting taxpayers money at their leisure.

Perhaps some of these union officials need to get some qaulifications
in business management. Waving placards is just not enough these
days.

Yes Lexi, I'm not really a Qantas lover, & do not have a position on the current shenanigans. Haven't got close enough to really know the rights or wrongs.

I do think that in the old days far too many unions used the damage they could do to extract much higher wages than their work was worth.

I really can't see that a wharfy was worth any more than any other labourer, their power was that they held up ships, not trucks.

I also note that we can never have a negotiation that leads to lower wages. Lower wages does appear to be necessary for Greece, & if it all goes wrong, 2008 might turn out to be just a dress rehearsal. for what we may all suffer.

With the huge appreciation of our dollar we have all had a 70 to 80% wage rise recently. Unfortunately we have not earned it, just our miners.

My main concern is where it will lead. I think we could be in very real trouble before any of my kids are my age.

Of course if that asteroid changes course a little wage disputes may not have much meaning.