I am so sick of Greece, Greek debt, the EU & the Euro crisis, in fact the whole catastrophe.

Zorba could not have generated half as much rubbish in a thousand years.

Everyone knows they are going to go broke. They know it, the European Commission know it, Germany & France know it, as do Spain, Portugal & Ireland, who will most probably follow them.

I would just like them to do the decent thing & go broke. All this on again, off again, is not only boring, & frustrating, & is costing millions of people millions of dollars, & putting large chunks of their lives on hold.

The sooner they get with it, & go broke, the sooner that abomination the EU can be disbanded, & we can start the recovery process. All this holding our breath is only making everyone go red in the face.

For heaven sake you Greeks, hold your collective noses if you have to, but jump in. Jump now, do not pass go, but get it over with. Please.

The problem is, Hasbeen. Socialist politicians sent them broke and now they want the people to pay for it with money they haven't got. Lets not forget when poly-ticks make rules, you have to follow them or have a gun put to your head. If they're wrong, you get the privilege of paying for it. it's a no win situation and is the same in every country! The way we're going, we're not to far behind. Are you willing to pay for the incompetence of the red witch or for how long?
Remembering you didn't make the rules, she did!

This is all taurine fertiliser. The idea that the lenders did not know the Greeks were cooking their books defies belief. If they make loans like that they must take their lumps.

The Germans are being complete and utter hypocrites. By melding the D-Mark with the Euro they have in effect enjoyed the benefits of an under-valued currency.

And if French banks are dumb enough to lend hundreds of billions to a country that elects Berlusconi as PM they too must take their punishment.

None of you get it.When the Private Central Banks in Europe create money from nothing,they are devaluing the wealth of all member countries.They are creating the inflation money + money for increases in productivity as debt.Currently through fractional reserve lending and "Quantitative easing" ie counterfeiting they are destroying the planet with false debt,since the money they loan, belongs to the people.

Some of the problems in Greece are socialism and waste but the underlying fault is money counterfeiting by private banks.

It is a shame so few have an understaning of how the system works.http://webofdebt.com/

think why they are going broke
TREASON..govts FORCED by other govts..to bailout bankers/bond traders

here w3e watch the greeks being hard pressed..into treason

look at it like this]
italy bond intrest rate is curently arround..6%
german bond rate curently arround 2%

greece currently 26%
so greec is taking out new bonds at ursurous [oudioud terms]rates
[insane rates]..and to take out these thieves rates..to pay off previous bonds..at much lower rates

so let's hear from you how the greece bond rate..has gone through time
[i watched a graff the other day on abc..that showed its only recently spiked like a rocket]

so look at it this way..better to 'default a 4% bond
or a 26%..bond...[i suspect much the same occured to the people of argentina]...yet in the end they repaid every penny

which is easy to do on a 4% loan
but much harder on a 26%..loan
repaid according to its origonal terms

the people of greece are being shafted..into a contract that doubles their debt every 4 years..!

to repay bond rates
that would take 25 years to double..[if at 4%]

CLEARLY..its better to face defaul;ting the 4%..ones they got now
than default even half at 26%...[that rate is insane..

any politition signing into that
is doing treason..[ie greating murderous/odious debt]..
thus crimminal collusions..not enforcable under law..

and worse made under theat
via sar-cossy and that nuke scientist runing the natzies..

as usual the govt is seerving the corperate intrsts
impoverishing its people

high treason
live with it

That is right Hasbeen, hold your breath and stamp your feet.
Too at Raw Mustard Socialists America, Spain, Portugal, all in debt and its all their fault.Well maybe but on what evidence.
Are we aware Germany holds most of Greece's debt, and how that came about?

I am so sick of Greece, Greek debt, the EU & the Euro crisis, in fact the whole catastrophe.
Hasbeen,
When Whitlam let them take most of the australian pension over there was when the root began for both Greece & Australia. We now can't get a decent pension because of the rorts that went on then.

Dear Hasbeen,

It's not the Greeks but world greed that is the
problem. I'm sure the Greeks have their fair share -
but they're not alone. It all started in a place
called Wall Street. And that's where it should end.
If they ever wake up to themselves.

Dear Individual,

Australia has agreements with a number of countries to share
responsibility for social security coverage not only with
Greece:

United Kingdom, United States of America, Austria, Chile,
Czech Republic, Germany, Italy, The Former Yugoslav Republic
of Macedonia, Poland, Spain, Belgium, Croatia, Denmark, Greece,
Japan, Malta, New Zealand, Portugal, Switzerland, Canada,
Cypress, Finland, Republic of Ireland, Republic of Korea,
The Netherlands, Norway, and Slovenia.

Negotiations are under way with a number of other countries.
These arrangements are reciprocal and in no way affects your
pension.

Australia has agreements with a number of countries
Lexi,
I know & I also know the Australia to Greece pension drain was the largest in history.

Dear Individual,

Your statement of "the Australia to Greece pension drain
was the largest in history," doesn't explain anything.
Kindly provide us with specifics, evidence, and the reasons
why? I'm not trying to be contentious. Simply that this is
not something that I'm familiar with.
I would have thought that people who have lived and worked
in this country and paid taxes are entitled to a pension
commensurate with their tax contribution. We know Australians
who've worked in the US and are now getting an Australian
pension partially subsidised by an American pension.

This thread was meant to be a light hearted bit of fun, but as it has been taken seriously by our lefties, here's a few facts.

A country can't make payment of income tax effectively optional, & not have the government short of money.

You can't employ 4 or 5 times the number of public servants required, just to avoid huge unemployment, without straining the budget.

You can't pay your public servants twice what they would be worth, if they actually did something, without even more strain.

You can't retire all those public employed folk so young they have yet to start to shave, without even more strain.

You can't pay the retirement pension to everyone at a similarly young age, without even more strain.

You can't borrow most of the money to pay for the above for years, without the stuff finally hitting the fan.

What do you do, when it hits the fan, riot of course, what else would you do?

And no the bl00dy banks did not make them do it, in fact they thought they deserved it.

Well I think they deserve what they are getting.

Please note, the UK are all ready getting to something near the Greeks in excess public employees, as are the French, & we are catching up damn fast.

Individuals statement is xenophobic.
It also blames events of 1972 to 1975 for?
Not quite sure.
Only because Indy puts his views out there, VERY often with lines insulting others.
I feel free to say, no person with average understanding, should ever look to Indy , on any subject.
For reasoned comment.
The thread is about the GFC and Greece.
Or have I miss lead myself?
Indy, takes the flogging stick?
To governments long gone, but why, no one thinks Australian debt is even near the rest of the developed world.
Name a country in less debt than us, as percentage of annual income.

Dear Belly,

Some people always feel better when they have
someone to blame.

Dear Hasbeen,

What's a "leftie?"
And is it a bad thing and why?

To governments long gone,
Belly,
that is a perfect display of a total lack of foresight & an even worse one of foresight. Xenophobic,
? c'mon ! when did you whizz that one through the knuckles ? Australia will be reeling from the Whitlam era for a long time yet.

Lexi,
It doesn't make me feel better to whinge because it makes me frustrated to see the lack of concern re this country by so many. Obviously you're not familiar with the pension drain to Greece otherwise you wouldn't say so. Due to the mismanagement by the Whitlam mob australian pensioners chose to live in cheaper countries. The largest exodus was to Greece. Whole clans took their australian wealth. These weren't so much voluntary decisions but mainly economic because the pension in Australia became & still is literally insufficient a compensation for people who worked 45 or more years to look forward to retirement. Now people dread the thought of retirement & living in poverty. Now you can only spend a maximum of three months overseas before they cut your pension. I think it may have been the Howard Govt that brought that limit in but I'm not totally sure. I think it is a very sad indictment that pensioners can't have a decent existence in the land that accepted all their taxes. That's why Greece plays a major part in this.

Dear Individual,

Thank You for taking the time and the effort to
explain things to me. I really didn't know anything
about it. Of course it sounds dreadful and I can
fully understand your concern and dismay. It's
fully justified and my apologies for doubting
what you were saying.

"""
What's a "leftie?"
"""

Polite name for parasite. That should need no further explaining.

par·a·site [par-uh-sahyt]

noun

1. An organism that lives on or in an organism of another species, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.

2. A person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others.

Ah, Dear RM,

When you say "parasites,"
you obviously understand so well -
the growing sense of frustration
that real people are being ignored at the
expense of established (parasitic?) interests.
Like "profits versus wages" in the Qantas case.

Now I get it.

"""
that real people are being ignored at the
expense of established (parasitic?) interests.
Like "profits versus wages" in the Qantas case.
"""

I saw no gun put to any of the Qantas employes heads forcing them to work for what they get. They are free to pursue alternative employment any time they like. They could even risk their own wealth and start their own company, all still free in this country.

But that's all too hard for a leftie, better to let someone else do all the hard work and demand the low hanging fruit for themselves!

But that's ok, keep pushing and flapping your jaws, if you all flap hard enough you might create enough uplift to fly yourselves, but beware of the free loaders hanging on for the ride or the landing might be a bit rough!

Like "profits versus wages" in the Qantas case.
Lexi,
you'll find that realistically interpreted this translates into saving an iconic australian company & thousands of jobs from selfish, inconsiderate union leaders. They don't miss out but the workers who sustain them do. Ansett hasn't woken them up & that's saying something. If only the Public Service were on similar limited funding I'd put Australia back on track.

Dear Individual,

Actually you need to get your facts straight.

This might help:

http://newmatilda.com/2011/11/01/naked-conflict-between-profits-and-wages

The Qantas fiasco was part of a premeditated well thought out plan/strategy of which Mr Joyce
was fully aware in advance and for which he received over $2 million
and then some. You really need to do more Googling.

You all despise these corporate thugs and their business dealings, yet you whine and want to work for them? Why don't people that hate these guys so much just leave their jobs for a company that they feel will treat them better?

It's obvious they don't give a rats about you, so why do you care? Why try to keep them in business. Surely after all this time you can see that your tactics are not working and never will. You are free to start your own business and run it how you think it should be done, you can even band together and pool your ethics, morals and money to make a truly great company.

I guess it's easier to let someone else risk their necks and you just whine till government and the unions put a gun to the bosses head and demand the easy pickings for you.

its no use explaining that the geeks..
not the greeks are the problem

look at the raw numbers
to pay off a huge debt..[at 4% intrest]
with a much larger debt..[at 26 % intrest]
is insane..[small wonder bankers will 'take half the debt
cause the bottum line means..in 4 years it will be back at 200 billion

ie kick the can down the road
in 4 years following this ODIOUS ..lol bailout'
the same debt will again be at the level it is today

but the debt DOUBLES compounding..every 4 years
[and by then the others debt will have increased..because the bankers got that 'other bailout'..

[equal the origonal debt they agree to temporilly forgo]..

so the most clever geeks in the room
not only got half the debt back[next year]

it trippled the intrest burdon
so the halved debt...increases bigger than half the debt
in less than 4 years

if you could only read the numbers
sort the spin..from the division

lefties isnt the problem
its clever guys causing odious debt
then rushing their quuick fix through
collecting cash..getting their bonus..and having a bigger fish next time

wake up you mugs
the same mob has ALLREADY put our debt up to over 100 billion..!

[add in that 10 billion juliar has gifted to imf
your allready dead walking...serving the corperate state debt]

Lexi,
You'd rather take the word of a journalist who is clearly not from a business background rather than the word of the CEO who stopped millions of dollars in losses & thousands of jobs. Yes big business is there to make money, money that keeps many employed. Qantas is not like the Labor Govt or the Unions which can afford to blow peoples' money with the only penalty that they get voted out but keep all their money. A company doesn't have that luxury anymore. Qantas understands providing a service, the unions don't. The other fact to consider is that unions always back a Labor Govt no matter how incompetent but never a conservative one no matter how competent.
I suggest you google common sense.

individual,

"Qantas is not like the Labor Govt or the Unions which can afford to blow other peoples' money...."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-06/qantas-says-sorry-with-free-tickets/3637764

Poirot,
yeah, that just goes to show that it's cheaper to give away tickets than dealing with unions. Smart move indeed. It would have cost many, many millions more to not make that call.

Well there you go, individual.
It seems that some people are impressed by a little conjuring and a company acting like a side-show carnival.

Roll-up...roll-up....

Dear Raw Mustard and Individual,

I'm trying to think of an appropriate word
to describe your reasoning:

Callithumpian!

I have an inquiring mind Indy, not a closed one.
I get it wrong, often but not always.
And if I wanted too? could both defend and pick holes in our government in those years, My ALP 1972 till 11 November 1975.
You probably, almost certainly, do not know that day and month was the day Ned Kelly hung.
And ww 1 ended.
I remain open to learning, tell me, please, how did the actions of that government impact on todays Greece?
Your lost comment if true, would seem to enrich that economy.
Writing slowly, try to keep up,we have treaty's, International ones.
These see, not just your targeted Greeks, haveing worked and paid tax's here maybe for decades, but Australians get paid their pensions in country's they chose to live out their life in.
Note Friend, your heated STANDARD reply, is it your wish to be free to dump the contents of your verbal rubbish tin on others but not have it returned?
Comments from all views add to the debate, but yours are as usual a reason to spew thoughts about life time of hating Labor.
And come across, to me at least as uninformed and as worthless as any I ever saw.

*It seems that some people are impressed by a little conjuring and a company acting like a side-show carnival.*

Nope Poirot, its just that lefties like you and Lexi, commonly seem
to have a terrible time using a calculator. So I'll work it all
out for you to make it really easy :)

Qantas was losing 15 million $ a week through the unions industrial
action and were told that the unions would "bake them slowly" for
another year or so. Not about wages, btw, but about the Qantas
managements right to manage their company. The unions held all the
ace cards.

15 million by 50 weeks = around 750 million $ of potential losses.

Shut the airline down and achieve certainty = 30 million. Free
tickets = 20 million. Total 50 million. Qantas saved a potential
700 million $ worth of losses by their action, hardly a silly thing
to do.

Dear Yabby,

Nope. It seems that you're only fixated on profits.
But it's hard I know for you to see the bigger
picture when you've got such a small screen.

Try the following website:

http://newmatilda.com/2011/11/01/naked-conflict-between-profits-and-wages

Dear Lexi, I already read your google link and can only suggest
that you find better sources. The latest weekend edition of
the AFR might be a good suggestion, but as its well researched
information, you'd have to actually buy a copy and pay real money
for it. Just because something appears on a website, does not
make it true.

Dear Yabby,

Truth in discussions such as these
is rather subjective.

The reason that I referred you to that particular web site
was - to give you a different perspective.
I'm pleased that you did read it. Good for you.

The article was written by a highly respected journalist,
Ben Eltham. Eltham is someone who
actually does do his homework - and he interviews quite
a variety of people and sources.

The essence of a business is the vision behind it.
Winning at someone else's expense is an old
paradigm and an increasingly obsolete model of
success. Separation leads to disintegration
and joining leads to success as any student of
organisational behaviour knows.

Maybe we should treat the incompetence of the Greeks like in the game of monopoly...( Iam sure there,s quite a few champions here that's played it :)

You all know the rules;).......when you become bankrupt, your out!.....and someone else takes it over and runs it better.......What!...dont look at me like that:)......that's how the game is played, isn't it:)

Someone from the European union, must take control......or see the money the world/we are all putting in, you would have a better chance of a return at the race track for your good will.

THE RULE STATES! WHEN YOU RUN OUT OF MONEY, YOU LOOSE.....its someone else's turn to roll the dice. ( or in business terms.....welllll you get the picture.

But I forgot, Iam still thinking of the game of Monopoly....

Oh dear, I just cant get it out of my head:)

CACTUS

My dear Lexi, there is no bigger picture. As wobbles put it in his monopoly reference, no profits equals bankruptcy, equals no more jobs. That's no more jobs at all.

Do ask those who worked for Ansett, British Motor Corporation, hundreds of US & UK steel works, & so many others that have not kept pace.

I wonder how many companies that used to make those sticky paper fly traps you hung from the kitchen ceiling light are going. Probably not well, same as Ansett. Qantas can very easily be another Ansett, or it can fly on, looking a bit different, but still flying.

General Motors in the US was about to go broke, laboring under industrial relations conditions given a couple of decades ago. With new players from Asia & Europe, manufacturing in the US, but not burdened with those luxury conditions, GM were gone. It was only by going into receivership, & shedding some of those past conditions that they have survived.

I have not followed what this meant for retired past GM employees, I expect it is not good, I do hope they are still getting something. Better something than nothing, but it has probably not been good for many.

Reading propaganda sheets gives you a different perspective, but not one that is likely to maintain employment in Oz for very much longer.

Sorry, cactus not wobbles.

Think you best stick with monopoly.
It is just a game the cash is not real and your departure enriches others.

Greece gos under many country's/Banks/People do too.
Just maybe us all, we talk of Greece, tomorrow it may be one of five others.
Not one evil silly, or criminal.

ahhh gm
great stuff that one
it was in huge debt...[spent their workers pensions
and was tied up big by the mandated medical care of its retuired workers

so it goes bust..and every retired worker
who was accepting lower wages and pensions
cause of the feree medical insuance..get shafted

and the heads get a bailout and a clean sheet
and the people get the loss

the clever guys are so clever
paying off the low intrst banker bailout
with a four fold increase in intrest...now at 26%

so the clever bailout bond holders this time arround can double the debt in 4 more years[ie the debt is back where it was yesterday]

at some stage we must let capitalism
do what capitalism is suposed to do..buy up bargens..when other capitalists get greedy

sometime govt will let capitalism..do what its supposed to do
and not pick winners or bailoout capitalist..using high intrest ursury loans..

loaned from the very capitalists
its meant to be bailing out

its cheaper for govt to run these things
as a caretaker..that ensures woprkers got jobs
ensures workers got basic pay

ensures workers can kep paying basic bills
ensure consumers can consume

govt should l;evel the playing field
ensure its workers are educated..and healthy

govt should ensure services [basic services..are available to all

govts should provide basic services..
at a cost the people can afford

when capitaliasts enter health
then health costs double..tripple
just to make a proffit from others ill health

*Truth in discussions such as these
is rather subjective*

Nope Lexi, its all about the factual, like figures. Its
about understanding those figures and their ramifications.

It seems that your Eltham is qualified in philosophy, not
in how to run a business. Wishy washy ideology is not what
its about, when a company is bleeding to the tune of 15 million
a week.

Hasbeen is quite correct, the way Qantas were heading, the whole
Qantas show could have come to a stop, for their international
operation was already losing 200 million$ a year. It was only
Jetstar that has kept the operation afloat. Hardly a great position
to be in.

The next thing that it comes down to is our basic rights. I assume
you want full control over the money that you have in your bank
account. If the bank tellers union took some out, as their members
felt they were entitled to more money, you might be a little pissed
off. Yet you seem to think its fine for Qantas shareholders to
lose their money, because Qantas unions deem its a good idea for
their members.

If Qantas unions want to run the company, they are free to buy it
with their workers super fund money. Then they can pay themselves
whatever they wish and if they go broke, they can only blame
themselves.

Having a job does not entitle people to send the employer broke,
which is what Qantas unions, with their lack of business understanding, were in the process of doing.

Dear Hasbeen and Yabby,

We are in critical times and companies need to do a
reassessment of the relationship between labour
and capital, a reassessment which takes into
account the politics of industrial democracy,
profit and job sharing, and long term planning.

What we don't need is the "kick the worker today
and take the money tomorrow," attitude that comes
from many currently in managment.

The only way in which companies can work properly
is for management and the workforce to co-operate with
one another, not condemn one another.

The sad truth is condemnation is the only language
that some managers appear to understand. As Charles
Coleman, former director and CEO of Australian
Mining Company Peko-Wallsend Ltd, once stated:

"It isn't a matter for concilliation, it's a
matter for arbitration. We are not prepared to
conciliate."

Obviously the inevitable expansion of capital with its
attendant social inequality and natural destruction
brooks no interference and allows no moral judgements.

Once Qantas degenerates to off-shore operations it
will no longer be an Australian airline and will
undoubtedly lose the support of a large proportion
of Australian travellers who up until now
believed in supporting an Australian product.

BTW if you guys don't believe in blaming Alan Joyce's
goal of ensuring increasing profits for his company at
the expense of his workforce.
Why do you blame the workers for trying to ensure
their job security? Quid pro quo. Without the workforce
the company would not have been so successful to date.
And certainly CEO's being given ridiculous salary
increases at critical time does not win the support
of the travelling public on which the success of the
company depends. Plus the additional concern of plane
maintenance to date - is very worrying due to the fact
that the majority of work is not longer being done in
this country under Australia's high standards (hence the
various recent plane malfunctions).

cont'd ...

electrical wiring held together with sticky tape,
and stapled with metal office staplers does not\
inspire confidence.

Still you get what you pay for. Thank Heaven, a Qantas
plane hasn't crashed as yet - but when it does, and it
will - I trust that the company will be proud of Mr
Joyce's performance.

*Without the workforce
the company would not have been so successful to date.*

Without planes Lexi, it would not be going far either and
those planes are bankrolled by somebody, lots of them
mums and dads. They have no rights according to you?

But see, you base your information on uninformed bloggers,
rather then qualified and well informed journalists.
The huge pay rise is a heap of bollocks. It is exactly
detailed in this weekend's AFR, as is the pay of a number
of executives. It shows how little much of the daily press even,
bothers to inform itself. Suckers like you, then believe every
word.

Fact is that in take home pay, Joyce has actually suffered a
decrease. IF he can turn Qantas around, meets certain parameters
and actually make the shareholders a return for a change, he
will be paid a large bonus. That is a big IF. Once again, NO certain
pay rise for Mr Joyce.

Plenty of Qantas work on planes is being done in Australia. But
if overseas work was so bad, why arn't Singapore Airlines, Cathay,
Etihad, Emirates and all the rest, crashing due to bad maintenance?

Fact is that whilst many Australians like Qantas, when it comes to
actually buying tickets on overseas flights, 80% choose another
airline, because the tickets are cheaper, or they have more movies
on the videoscreen. I've had some people tell me that they prefer
overseas carriers, as the hosties and younger and more attractive.
I can just see what would happen, if Qantas decided to sack
staff for being too old!

No company can offer a 3 year jobs guarantee to workers, if
a business is losing 200 million a year. Workers jobs are only
as secure as is the business from customers and customers have
choices. If you wan't certainty, go work for the Govt. Only
they have the monopoly of wasting taxpayers money at their leisure.

Perhaps some of these union officials need to get some qaulifications
in business management. Waving placards is just not enough these
days.

Yes Lexi, I'm not really a Qantas lover, & do not have a position on the current shenanigans. Haven't got close enough to really know the rights or wrongs.

I do think that in the old days far too many unions used the damage they could do to extract much higher wages than their work was worth.

I really can't see that a wharfy was worth any more than any other labourer, their power was that they held up ships, not trucks.

I also note that we can never have a negotiation that leads to lower wages. Lower wages does appear to be necessary for Greece, & if it all goes wrong, 2008 might turn out to be just a dress rehearsal. for what we may all suffer.

With the huge appreciation of our dollar we have all had a 70 to 80% wage rise recently. Unfortunately we have not earned it, just our miners.

My main concern is where it will lead. I think we could be in very real trouble before any of my kids are my age.

Of course if that asteroid changes course a little wage disputes may not have much meaning.

Dear Yabby,

You've lost me.

I stopped reading after your statement:

"You base your information on uninformed bloggers
rather than qualified and well informed journalists."

Dear Hasbeen,

Your concern is admirable.

We should all be concerned - if the Opposition
wins the next election.

Dear Lexi,

No wonder I lost you, if you did not read what I'd written.
As they say, you can take a horse to water etc.

In future, please bother to inform yourself a bit better.
For as the rest of my post showed, you were very badly informed.

Lexi old mate, as you well know, I'm terrified that they might not win it.

Much more of our Julia & it will be me I'm worried about, not my kids future.

Some things never change, and never will.
In all things, all events two sides exist.
No one side is ever totally right.
Yabby, and others is right.
Quantas is facing financial problems, some changes had to happen.
And Lexi is too, not just this year, or the last two, but about 5 Quantas has cut safety by exporting some maintenance.
It is there, can not be avoided, our great Australian airline.
So very proud we are, of its, record.
Has said it wants to survive, by selling its record.
Such is debate in our country, this thread about Greece, has become bash Australian unions/Labor.
It is likely, more than so, my post this far finds no opposition.
It understands things will/must change or Quantas falls.
That much is true.
I once heard, a firm involved in a National renewal scheme, a Billion Dollar project.
Built in to its contract, these thoughts *a project of this size can afford 5 deaths in the workplace*
A Manager, Brilliant, and mate still, showed me, on a safety inspection that proved the job was the worst ever seen by me.
Quantas, its actions needless militant, has such a statement, it is on its way to ?
Wish I did not know but tragic events await and the standard of excellence is gone.
Did you notice that mention?
A site project manager, still one, still, working with yabbys evil unions
Truth is far more do than do not.

Dear Yabby,

Just a few corrections old chap.

You call me "ill informed" and that my sources
are "bloggers" and not "reputable" journalists
(which is not true), as I pointed out -
Ben Eltham is a reputable journalist as are
the other journalists I cited.

You use The Australian Financial REview.
That's all well and good.

However -

The AFR is a business representing business
interests, actually its more than just a business.
And to think that it represents a fair and
accurate picture is at best naive and at worst
ignorant. However, be that as it may - we're all
aware of your favourable opinions regarding
big business and corporations - we've argued
with you in the past.

Your entitled to your opinion.
But - your opinion has no more validity than that of
anyone else - and if you continue with your dogmatism
and pig-headedness - you shall subsequently be ignorant.

cont'd ...

Ooops - excuse my typos.

The last sentence should read - "You shall subsequently
be ignored."

Ha!...Lexi, thanks for that - it's the best Freudian Slip I've seen all morning : )

Dear Poirot,

What can I say?

Big business and its supporters -
all singing from the same hymn sheet.

*The AFR is a business representing business
interests,*

Gawd Lexi, there was you claiming that you want others
to understand another perspective. How much trouble do
you take to do the same?

It would frankly do you some good to at least learn about
how a business is actually run and why business thinks
and acts as it does.

*your opinion has no more validity than that of
anyone else*

Well in this case it has, as I've bothered to inform
myself with accurate information and checked out the
details. You, as I have shown, never did that.

Once again, if you want to know the details of what
Mr Joyce actually earns, buy a copy of last weekend's
AFR. Their journalists would be sacked if their
data was not accurate. Bloggers don't have to bother
with such minor details, it seems.

Like almost all governments, banks etc you overlook the real cause of
the failure of the banks and governments.
They all expected substantial GDP each and every year.
They relied on the increased activity enabled by growth to pay back
loans and interest.
When GDP failed, they borrowed more money to pay the interest and capital.
It first became obvious to those who were awake in August 2008 and
triggered by the sub prime failure when the oil price of $147 ate all
GDP and loan repayments.

We are not in a second dip, we never left the first. It was hidden
behind the printing presses and even more borrowing.
It is just that the Greeks were the most vulnerable to the collapse.
If you want to know why we are immune, we hid our problem in a mine
in Western Australia.
Errr, what was that ? Iron ore and coal prices have dived !
Hmmmm.

im missing out on talking about the topic
to wit geeks telling greeks to bail them out

capitalism..often looses its capital
or makes a bad..loan or bad investment...

[so the bankers made a bad investment decision]
next their leaders commint colluded treason

if only all of us who made a bad decision
could get half our money back..[BUT WE CANT]

yet here we got the clever guys[geeks]
who own the global franchise on debt
in the bad situation..

that their assets..come nowhere near the values
they borrowed into..!

indeed have gotten so intrenched..in investing in the wrong thing
that the 4 quadrillion of virtual global debt..has less than half a quadrillion of REAL assets..

[and that only..if we dont all fall down in a heap]

so colluding/deluding finance geeks..getting half their back is insane
even more so because the on paper..'theoretical loss'[haircut]..
will be made up..in next years recapitalisation..[of the bank/finance intrests

strangly..the same ammount as..the 'haircut'
like hair..the debt will keep growing

[recapitalisation means..bailout..of the lol banker..directly]

using even more govt bonds...carrying more intrest[debt]
[like our 10 billion juliar just promised to the imf]..that in some way..will recapitalise other bailouts..to bankers..that have then..gone to the eu [italy/espana..portugal..ire-land..usa/uk..if not greece]

and their all..in the same boat mate

govts globally..are on credit cards
[high yeild short term lending..[tbills],..

all cash is lent into egsistance
but intrest needs others to default
all fiat notes/all fiat debt..is carrying banker ursury..!

ie they moneychangers..have been broken..[for far too long]

but recall why
cause the lent from bankers..to bailout the finance market

then underwrote future losses
then gave intrest free loans..to bankers
on bonds they have to buy..[FROM THE BANKERS]..

at 2% intrst
and 4%..and 6%..and up to 26%

so the bankers..bought the bonds..getting YEILDS of..2%
[or 4..or 6..or 26%]

with loans the other govt gave them..*for free*..

its a shame you
cant expklain that basic truth..to them..

they [WE}..been robbed..
and the thieves are still counting the cash
send in the cops..before our master geeks..steal even more..

and our leaders collude treason
in bailing our big fish..while letting little ones die

[police are sworn to serve hrh..
ie protect the common weal]..[serving to protect the people and our commonwealth]

instead of chasing
the real criminals
they police revenueraising

to give ursury to invester's...stealing
by statute/bailout and many other govt gifts/subsidies

its pssss poor
so lets return back to topic

The case of Alan Joyce and Qantas has been given
so much attention in the media. Articles have appeared
in all of the newspapers covering this topic rather
well. A couple of things should concern us here in
Australia: Clearly, the primary interest of Alan Joyce is
that of the shareholder, when historically, the
company - developed with Australian taxpayer money -
has obligations to the Australian community generally.
The company is not merely an independent business
identity. It might no longer be a solely
government-owned airline but its an Australian "brand."
It's our air-line.

As one reader commented on another site, "Qantas is going
to be the next "Bonds." Pack it up and post it overseas
so that the quality can be paid in quantity. The more planes
the foreigners get in the air the more they get paid and the
first casualty will be safety. Look at the cheap faulty
Chinese imports that are currently flooding the markets.
They too are paid on quantity."

Remember companies like Holeproof, like Sunbeam to name
just a few. Since their
manufacturing went to China Holeproof is no longer -
holeproof. And the quality in Sunbeam products is not what
it used to be.

If Joyce thinks safety is expensive, wait until the company
starts having accidents.

The dismemberment of Qantas, the loss of Australian jobs,
and the loss of our air-carrier is a sad thing.

When Joyce says, "the period of uncertainty and instability
for Qantas is over..." he's being rather dishonest, especially
when he proposes breaking up this great airline.

Sad, sad, sad.

cont'd ...

We don't have to "Beware of Greeks carrying Euros,"
we have to beware of Irish jokes. There are Irish
jokes and there are irish jokes and then there is
an irish Joyce.

Virgin Airlines must be laughing.

You're not talking about our, [or should it be their] Julia when you mention Irish jokes are you Lexi?

I just read about Senators Bob Brown & Xfernon are proposing a private
members bill that will prevent Qantas and Virgin from making any
arrangements such as code sharing with airlines that do not pay at
least Australian wages and conditions.
They would be forced to do all their maintenance in Australia.
The parliamment would control who is appointed to the board and would
force Qantas & Virgin to sell their interests in overseas airlines
such as New Zealand.

http://tinyurl.com/6lrf7os

I knew Bob Brown was mad but this is really a case of an asylum takeover.

Wow!

Tax the mining industry out of the country.

Then send any other industry broke, by making them run as efficiently as a government department.

I can see it now, academics & bureaucrats on the boards, public servants in public contact positions, what odds they last less than a year.

Watch out Greece, Oz is coming down the straight fast, & will beat you yet to the bankruptcy flag, with just a little help from the ratbags now in control.

Sorry Lexi, you may be proven right right. Maybe Julia isn't all that bad, at least in comparison to Bob & his mates. Certainly time she sat on the ratbags from the south though.

*The company is not merely an independent business
identity. It might no longer be a solely
government-owned airline but its an Australian "brand."
It's our air-line.*

More poor rearch from Lexi! Its not "your airline".

The govt sold all of it, not part of it. Its owned by
shareholders. It was sold with certain terms and
conditions. As long as Qantas meets those conditions,
is all that matters.

As a matter of interest, Sunbeam products are still
designed in Australia. Now with competition, many
of them are far better then they ever were, when
the company faced little competition and consumers
were the mugs.

But today Sunbeam produce a much larger range, which
includes cheapskate products for those who only focus
on price and value for money quality, for more
discerning consumers. Take a look at their Cafe
series of kitchen gadgets for instance.

But of course you can always buy a Thermomix from
Germany, as record number of Australians are now
doing.

Dear Hasbeen,

Our PM is Welsh not Irish. And Wales is a country
of poets, singers, actors. Dylan Thomas,
Tom Jones, Richard Burton, Catherine Zeta-Jones,
come to mind. She's in good company.

"""
Wales is a country
of poets, singers, actors.
"""

None of which fill my belly, cure my ills or build my house. Are you describing a country of parasites perhaps?

Can you imagine if all in the world were of such standing, the mess we would be in? Hmm hang on, we are in a mess hmmmm!

< Callithumpian >

Good way to avoid the hard questions with diversionary quotes. Learn that from the welsh parasite did you?

Dear Yabby,

Qantas may not longer be a solely government-owned
airline bit it is bigger than the fickleness of
shareholders and overpaid CEOs.

Whatever led Mr Joyce to ground the whole fleet
without notice, stranding somewhere in the order of
100,000 passengers, he handed foreign airlines a
free pass in the Australian market.

As one author wrote:

"He justifies the export to Singapore of OUR airline
on the grounds that Qantas International operations
are losing money. If he can't make money on international
sectors, whatever makes him think he will do better in a
vastly more competitive market in Singapore?

Anyone who travels from Europe knows that it is relatively
easy enough to travel from a European hub to Singapore and
that it is rather more difficult to get a seat at short
notice from Singapore to Australian destinations, which
suggests a capacity problem for Qantas. And whatever
happened to cross-subsidisation to ensure that the image
of this once great airline - and still one of the few over
the years of the global financial crisis, which has each
year turned a profit - continues to prosper as Australia's
flag carrier?"

As the same author, points out:

"Joyce appears to have not learned the lessons of people
like Frank Lorenzo who killed Eastern Airlines in the
1980s. That case provided another lesson: the unions
were fiercely protective of their airline and resisted
Texas Air Corporation's stripping of Eastern Assets. The
fierce loyalty to the company is not inconsistent with
union members taking protected action to prevent the
dismantlement of Qantas, the loss of Australian's jobs,
and the loss of our air carrier. It is only ideology,
which would prevent Mr Joyce from understanding that."

Qantas has spent millions on hotel accomodation for
stranded travellers and now is going to spend $20 million
to attract past travellers with free flights to boost
the airlines diminishing popularity.

If Joyce would have spent some of those millions to
satisfy the moderate union requests there would have
been no drama with the airline. As I said before -
a typical Irish joke.

Lexi, your new author is as badly informed as the last one.
Joyce is in fact making money in Singapore, Jetstar is based
there and its profits have kept Qantas afloat.

Joyce is not going to shut Qantas Autralia down. He is simply
going to reduce loss making routes and increase those where
profits can be made. All very logical and sensible. If that
means a few less Qantas International flights and a few more
Jetstar flights, so be it.

50 million $ would not have solved anything in terms of this
dispute. Unions want iron clad 3 year guarantees for every
job, something which no CEO can do, in a competitive market.

Its time you found better sources of information.

Ah Welsh, thanks Lexi, is there much difference?

Bet the Welsh are well pleased that we've got her, & they don't have.

The unbridled greed of the few has resulted in great damage to global economies and society.

They say no good deed goes unpunished, and the reverse seems to have happened here. Their bad deeds have been rewarded with bailouts, blame shifting and bonuses.

It makes me sick.

I wonder about the psychology of Australian bulls and property investors in this environment. Do they really think this is a new paradigm where housing bubbles never burst. Reading the spruikers comments below, you'd have to say so.....

http://australianpropertyforum.com/topic/9135957

If these people are still living in such a world of delusion, what hope is there for society. Can the 'Occupy' protests ever change the minds of people who are that sure the bubble is a myth?

Let's hope we can change their outlook. For if we can't, Australia is doomed.

Dear Raw Mustard,

Your obvious obsession with parasites even though its a
bit cringe-worthy - makes your concern regarding
food, illness, and a roof over your head quite understandable.
However don't worry. The government doesn't believe in
allowing people who can't swim (so to speak) to sink.
They will see to it that you are provided for in your
time of need.

As for your abstract reference to "avoiding the hard
questions" and then the "Welsh parasite." I presume you're
referring to Mr Abbott. Although I must admit that I
didn't know that Mr Abbott was Welsh. I naturally had
assumed that his ancestry was Irish.

Dear Yabby,

Perhaps one way to solve Australia's "refugee problem"
would be to sell the entire country to Asian interests.

Dear Hasbeen,

I bet the Welsh wish their economy was as good as ours
is currently!

Cheers.

You're in fine form today Lexi.

But tell me, do the Welsh actually have an economy? I thought Maggie has done away with that, when she closed all those coal mines.

Perhaps the lack of business experience in Wales is at the seat of our problem. It's probably hereditary.

I have enjoyed your thread hasbeen.
It wobbled from subject in to other paddocks, we always do.
Todays headlines shout Italy next.
But most enjoyment comes from the understanding,some here could fix the whole thing in a minute.
Poor old Wales gets its bottom line kicked too.
Lets see.
Australia is not failing,we got it wrong however in the GFC.
And those who think that, continue to blame, well every one, for Europe's problems.

We humans are far better at solving other peoples troubles than our own.
Or are we, When looking for faults, finding the one responsible for them,
I have a portrait of my enemy in my bath room, we all should.
Its called a mirror.
Once we get that person under control we can feel free to pillory country's.

Dear Hasbeen,

Thatcher's government simply applied the final fatal
blow to an industry that had long been in terminal
decline. Don't blame Thatcher too much. She wasn't
the culprit - oil and gas were.

If you're interested in the Welsh economy, simply
Google - 'Economy and Labour Market Summary For
Wales.' Interesting stuff.

As for the Welsh lacking business experience?
They've learned that with modernisation,
diversification, attracting hi-tech investment
things can and do improve.

They could learn a great deal from our Welsh PM
and the government she leads.

thatcher ..bah
she came up with the tax on carbon

[only her reasoning was global cooling
till the facts said warming]

anyhow her theory of a great new tax
had the bonus of killing unionised miners
that bit worked

and the lobby filed the new tax gift grant away
till another day...[and the liar deliverd it..as climate change tax

a tax double the market rate
so we can subsidise imbisiles swallowing the spin

but back to topic
geeks debt
going to italy next

bah

..""Terms like "trick"
were deliberately made sinister""
[tricked data..see previous post

mate if you trick up the data
OR HIDE THE FACTS..thats lying
if you obtain creduit via a lie
thats odious debt[non enforcable]

""and the implication of cheating
was repeated loud and often.""

it wernt 'implicated' ol mate..it is fact
they said trick up the data

""Most trades have "tricks",""lol
""and it is not uncommon to use the term!"'

i never heard it before
thus it is a spin term

sounding better than change the data

""The "confirmation bias" based on these non-proofs seem to be endlessly repeated, just like WMDs in Iraq, despite any proof to the contrary.""

if there is a bias..for others
to take your money

they will invest in it
tiklkl your bled dry

LEST WE FORGET
c02 increased 5%..this year alone,,!

globally it will keep rising

no mater how much tax aussies end up paying
over 1 trillion 2020..not a bad govt bailout
for the carbon traders.[new age money changers]..

taxing breathing out c02

tax air?
huh..?

carbon isnt a polutant
trippling the cost of our energy..is insane
if you want to cut polution..stop putting methane into the air

[ie stop homecomposting and worm farming..and growing meat in heated sheds..feeding them on grain..give them grass...thats solid c02]

No Friend of mine.
That Lady from Wales today achieved great things.
Carbon pricing will, in time,generate true change.
New jobs.
Asure our economy for us.
Others will, because she stayed strong, follow.
One day, not far away, Her achievements will over shadow her impending removal.
As leader of the ALP.
I recommend this.
Future observations, of Conservative yes, no, maybe, never, policy.
Its empty headed rhetoric.
It failure to even attempt, to remove it.
Blood Oath?
Today we if we look back, to it,is the birth day of a LEGEND.
Conservatives under Abbott, have v taken oaths, promised to do things they had not intention of ever doing.
From this day every thing they say must be questioned.

mr bell
watch last nights insight..on line
http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/index/id/445/Greek-Ruins

or when its repeated..
its important to watch the politition run away
and then the economist run away

why are they running away..who knows
but mate watch the rest of it and weep
note the huge numbers..and recall greece is the same population base as queensland[our state debt..for govt..stands at 75 billion]

no doudt the semni privatised fuind raising arms got their own debt loads..[as do the people]..heck mate we are as indebited as the greeks

then italy..usa..
portugall ire land uk..you name it

now ol mate..is not the time to put in a new tax
certainly not one that sets at 23..$..with annual increase built in
that ensures the price soon rises to 30..then 100 then 3000[or whatever the market speculates a ton of c02 to be worth']

BUT MATE..think
the current market rate is betwen 9 dollars a ton
to 13 dollars per ton

HOW COME MATE..we are FORCED to pay 23..next year
26%..the year after
28%..the year after
etc etc

PLUS the doubling
of power/water/rego transport etc costs

[note the grek pensiion rate..at insight..=or- 400 EU
[monthly rent is 300 eu]..how copme we mugs pay that per week..get that per fortnight

how come workers are working 10 hour shifts
how come our power costs twice what usa power cost

mate your not thinking
your not sleeping 8 hours mate

8 8 8 ..people fought for that
now their waiting to die..cause govt wants 24/7

Belly it would be great if you are right there, but I'm afraid it will prove to be wishful thinking.

That just about says it all OUG, but unfortunately many people can only see fog, when ever you or any one else, start quoting numbers.

Hell I was about 40 before I discovered that you could look as a couple of pages of numbers, & see a picture of a company, or a country.

I blame math teachers, [or perhaps the curriculum].

Dear OUG and Hasbeen,

Before judging anything it's best to stop and wait until
its been implemented and running for a period of time.
Opinions will shift once people see the positive outcomes. Then
they will realise the exact amount of fear mongering that
has gone on. BTW: where was the leader of the Opposition when
it came time to vote on this issue that he felt so strongly
about. Did he put his money where his mouth has been?

Lexi my Friend.
Relax, our mate and he is mine, OUG has been further away on this issue than Darwin is from Sydney from the camp fire of reality.
It is done! you BEAUTY!
Just as the Henny Penny's got superannuation will kill this country.
Kakadu will destroy the NT do you know they long ago said Child Endowment? said it was communism!
List ten posts long fear and mud.
And now, believe, they have No intentions to stop the tax.

Dear Belly,

Some people fear any sort of change. How many times
have we heard in the past when something new was being
suggested - "No. We've always done things this way.
If it ain't broke why fix it?" If we'd bought into
that sort of attitude we'd be 100 years behind the rest
of the world instead of only 30 - 50. (Joke)
Of course, change involves taking some considerable
risks but almost every human advance is based on experiment,
and innovation.

as much as i lovethe pair of ya
yer wrong this time

mainly cause there is no proof..
that any partial tax will fix anything
let alone mandatibng it up to 23%..when the world market says 9%

how insane is that?
why did they put it at 23%
cause thats the number they ned to give us some grants

BUT THE REST OF THE WORLD SAYS 9%
plus the rest of the world only raises 2 billion
and ours will raise in its first year..3.5 billion
that increases EVERY year till by 2050..its 150 billion

how can you support such insanity
and still c02 went up this year by 5%

it was built on a lie
nothing good can come from a lie

but at every step they lied
only 1000..[only 500...it will only affect half the households]

now we are ALL GOING TO PAY
for credits..those charging us 23 buck..
bought on the 'market' for 9$...[who is going to buy aussie carbon permits at $23..or 25..or 28%..increasing EVERY YEAR

no thats what we will pay
for carbon credits they bought for 9$

are we going to buy them or juliars?
are we going to round up or down our carbon credit
[i use one quaterr of a ton..of c02 in total...so it dont hurt me..till prices go up for cooling meat/fruit..and the cost of transporting food]

why chose you guys to be deaf and blind
your both so ONE EYED..yet i still love you
labour party isnt about serving you..its about taxing you to death

Dear OUG,

We love you too. And your fear of the "unknown"
is understandable. However try to understand
that with this current step that's been taken
it will encourage companies to become more
environmentally friendly.

Australians will get
a better deal because clean choices are cheaper
and more competitive than polluting ones and
also new industries will be created with high-paying
skilled jobs for the future.

This step is a
step in the right direction. We can't continue
with what we've been doing - for the sake of both our coutnry,
our fragile planet, as well as for the sake of our
future gneerations.

Surely you understand that the control of pollution is
politically difficult for the economic interests
behind "smokestack" industries are a powerful lobby that
is reluctant to commit the necessary resources to the task.

Our government has taken a very courageous step in making
this right decision despite all the negativity, spin, and
rhetoric from the Opposition .

However Mr Abbott will soon discover that a strategy based
on negativity has many advantages including clarity.
But it inevitably suffers in terms of relevance as decisions
are taken and the public debate moves on.

Lexi said seriously I think;
BTW: where was the leader of the Opposition when
it came time to vote on this issue that he felt so strongly
about.

Errr, Abbott is a member of the Reps, the vote was in the Senate.
Hmmmm

*This step is a
step in the right direction. We can't continue
with what we've been doing - for the sake of both our coutnry,
our fragile planet, as well as for the sake of our
future gneerations.*

Lol Lexi. So we increase meat processing and other costs
to farmers, make them even less competitive on global markets.
But then we export the surplus coal that we now hope not
to burn. Then we add a few other nails in the coffin,
like 12% super, Fair Work Australia and all the rest.

Next you'll be screaming that you wonder why jobs are leaving
Australia! Female logic really is cute at times, if only the
repercussions were not so serious. The law of unintended
consequences is never far away.

lexie i have no fear of the uinknown
i resent the lies used at every level of this debate
as said previously i use a minimum of power/fuel..so its not going to cost me much

but it is going to cost me something
and juliar said only 500 will pay

i resent being 'one of the 500'..[who only will pay]..lol
thats pure lie

you me all of us here will pay
why say only 100-..only 500

keep count of how much your grandchild pays..over his lifetime

ONLY 500..yeah sure ju-liar

who is a fool enough to believe that..
[a lot of your mates]

i resent being called names a hollow caust denier
a paid stooge for poluters..ignorant of science

there was no end to the spin
there still isnt

even you say
im afraid..lol

im over caring..at least the lies can now end

lets hope a liberal govt has the courage
to demand back those who got grants...
yet they too lied

OUG! MATE! and you are my mate.
Consider this, we learn by our mistakes, also by hearing others views.
Do you know how the quote Greeks Barring gifts came about, Trojan horse and all that?
You claim the views Lexi and I have are born of lies?
You have taken the reins of a Trojan horse crafted by big money self interest.
Pushed it to your home and you are welcome to it.

Dear Yabby,

It's to be expected that we'll continue to hear all
the old arguments that Australia is "going it
alone", that the carbon price will harm the
economy, and that nothing Australia does will
make any difference to global emissions. But these
arguments will be proven wrong on all counts.

Yesterday was a historic day for Australian economic
and environmental policy. It is the beginning
of a long and necessary path towards carbon neutrality.

And - according to the polls -
Labor's primary vote has climbed out of the 20s
and into the low 30s, narrowing the Opposition's
lead. Now perhaps the media may even start to
take more notice of the government's achievements.

Mr Abbott has reaped maximum political gain by playing
irresponsibly to the public opposition of the carbon tax.
However that tactic is now reaching its use-by date.

Mr bbott's days in the sun may already be behind him. Whether
they like it or not the Opposition must eventually confront
the reality that it has lost the carbon debate.

As Barry Jones observed: "...the failure of the Opposition...
to play a meaningful role in the discussions on mitigating
climate change is a profound historic misjudgement." And again
as experts tell us - under
Tony Abbott the Liberal Party has put itself on the wrong side
of the most important political and economic issue of the
century - which probably will haunt the Liberal Party in
years to come especially as the planet warms, Australia
dries and the rest of the world wakes up to the
catastrope that awaits it unless something is done.

You, (like Qantas) Yabby need a new logo. The emu comes to
mind for obvious reasons. Head in sand scenario - which
really isn't cute at all.

Dear Bazz,

One would think that the leader of the Opposition who was
dead set against the carbon tax and voted against it in
Parliament would have had the gumption to support his members
in the Senate by making it a priority to be present when the
results of the final Senate vote came out and make appropirate
comments as the leader of the Opposition. That is what the
voters were expecting.

The excuse of departing to a Conservative Leaders Meeting in
Europe is not acceptable as a representative of his party
could have been sent in his place. Such as the Deputy leader,
and he could have followed soon afterwards.

That to me simply shows that Mr Abbott lacks the calibre of
leadership that we expect any leader of a political party to have.

Ah Lexi, the merchant bankers just love people like you. They would
be creaming their jeans about all the profits they can make from
carbon trading, as Australia sends billions overseas to dodgy
dealers, to buy carbon certificates.

My old uncle was right. For every sucker that dies, another 10 are
born.

Chinese food processors will be laughing too. As Australian food
processors close down, from all the nails being banged into their
coffins. Shoppers like Lexi will eat more Chinese food, repackaged
in NZ. They won't even notice.

Next we'll have the Lexis of this world screaming for more Australian
jobs. Job creation schemes was all the go when Beasley was in
Govt. I guess we can rehash that one and the true believers will
wave the flag and cheer it on. Just borrow the money, that will
fix it.

Life really does go in circles.

Meantime the global population has increased by another quarter million,
every time your have breakfast. But we won't spend a cent
on that, or on the hundreds of millions of women who can't afford
family planning.

We really are walking, talking primates and little more. At least
the bonobos live sustainably.

"""
especially as the planet warms, Australia
dries and the rest of the world wakes up to the
catastrope that awaits it unless something is done.
"""

I've never read so much dribble in all my life. The only catastrophe coming is all of you screaming because jobs are going offshore and the price of your pitiful existence just tripled.

You're so right, Yabby. These leftards are in for the biggest shock of their lives.

Oh and those rains that were never going to come again and fill our damns. Well whaddya know, 100% and letting it out coz there's no where to put it all thanks to shortsighted, sky is gonna fall, lefties.

We're all rooned!

ahhh yabby
when you got it right

its all right

sorry my dearest lexie
but your been tricked
by a man in a womans body
wearing a unionist leftie flag...

[sheepskin and wolf [doppleganger right wioing true assignation
the intended policitacle two paerty sham..assasin nation]

[paid assasian
a yes man,,,that has a can do widehipped sprawel[drawl?daudle]

the same rightwing minds
in femail leftwing bodies

[the sex hides more
of the same 1%]who follow orders...instantly

or get replaced
by our man

Dear Yabby,

It says a great deal about your point of view if
Raw Mustard supports it.
I now wouldn't dream of contradicting anything you
say.

Dear Hasbeen,

It's been most entertaining.

Well Lexi, we let the poor Greeks off the hook, as we wandered off topic.

From what I'm reading elsewhere, things may be worse in Europe than we are being told.

Super profit tax may be of purely academic interest. Her ladyship may have to introduce a losses tax to pay for her excesses.

Remember it is a curse when someone suggests "may you live in interesting times". I think ours are about to get far more interesting than we might want.

Wish we could talk about our plants Hasbeen,have great blooms out now.
Sorry but no.
We are being told,have been for a year.
We just need to research, not a bad idea when starting such a thread actually.
My threads GFC still here, and a continuing line of warning ones have seen many fears out lined in those 12 months here.
Gee! brave act! fair dinkum, blaming Gillard for actions Rudd took, that stopped Australia getting in the same trouble! OUTSTANDING!
Here are my views to counter yours.
Hawk/Keitting/Howard took this country in to its current well found position.
Your Bias will not change the truth.
Labors opening of our banks , with more control than other country's.
Understanding the need to free up trade, IN TRUTH won the admiration of Conservatives.
We owe them all a great deal see Howard on that list.
At the time? the croaky voice of the hairy fear monster came out of conservatives cave,we will all be ruined.
Mining and such better rules for banking and this country under writing banks kept the movement forward.
Dr NO chanting mindless rubbish, on gaining office will dump the lot.
We will not see those such as you but many future conservatives look back and praise Rudd.
The world is on the brink, if trade stopped now, we too will be poor,but not as poor as every other developed nation in the world.
continued

Hasbeen what is taking place in Europe now is not a recent event.
It is the GFC it has not gone away.
In a way it is in part Ajay's conspiracy in real life.
It had to come, over spending, individuals, firms, country's, spent too much.
Increased productivity demanded increased spending.
In America, home of the greedy,borrowing is just paper, here we stop paying our loans we see our home and property sold.
There? they locked the doors walked away from home loans and dept.
Growth is not good, not always, one day it will be seen as evil.
Credit oils Capitalism, we have no better system.
But misused credit missed scheming, growth bought about this crisis.
Look at sub prime loans, see the true nature,selling risk?
In truth you and I you from a far different back ground.
Me my last day at school I was in reality a casual visitor to, at age just before 13, should both fear this.
We both should be out there in the nearest protest camp.
It is you and I middle Australia/World who are victims of a financial system that let us all down.
GILLARD she did it! ROTFL!

mr bell said..""the croaky voice of the hairy fear monster came out of conservatives cave,we will all be ruined.""

mate..the priuce of housing is falling globally
[300 per day in portugal alone]

thats no 'fear monster]..
its alomost equal your armogeddon topic
anyone can see the end..means we all go a slow bake
till the bankers own it all

think why you said..""this country underwriting banks kept the movement forward.""..yes the bankers will be fine..they used your money

of course..""many future conservatives look back and praise Rudd..""guilard/keating.

""The world is on the brink,""

yes your right[again]

""if trade stopped now,
we too will be poor,..but not as poor as every other developed nation in the world.""

if your thinking your super is safe..mate your dreaming
and you will still be FORCEd to pay carbon tax

""what is taking place in Europe now..is not a recent event.

In a way it is in part Ajay's conspiracy in real life.
It had to come, over spending,
individuals, firms, country's, spent too much.""

now govt has tied a tight knot
noose arround all our necks..an EVER INDEXED c02 tax
that goes up every year..just like the smokers tax..[clever indexation
that heat..that just keeps on slow cooking]

""It is you and I middle Australia/World
who are victims of a financial system that let us all down.""
ya at least realise that

""GILLARD she did it! ROTFL!""
no mate..,she put the last straw on our backs
[not just on the 500][spin mate..she put in the last nail..!

Ahh well it will all matter for nought what we all waffle on about here.
I think it was Belly who said the GFC was still here.
Spot on Belly. The problem is it does not matter what Lexi, Shadow,
Belly, Rehclub, pericles etc etc and myself say when the people who
matter have been in denial for years.
They were first warned in 1956 and by experts in the field ever since.
The arithmetic is so well drawn that Hubbard in 1956 was only six
years out in the date when Global oil production would stop
increasing in 2006.

None of those in the EU, IMF etc etc are taking into account that
growth has stopped and is unlikely to ever return.
They have not been able to accept that everything has changed and
their only solution to debt is growth.

The same applies in our economy. Neither the government or the
opposition have taken into account that their efforts in increase
growth are really only money printing exercises and any "growth"
they see will be an illusion.
The growth in green jobs may well come into being but they will not
be able to result in growth, it will just be job shuffling.

While I understand all the puffing and blowing about global warming
it really does not matter, geology couldn't care less.
They will just about be getting the whole CO2 program well into its
stride when they will be hit square between the eyes by a very big
failure in energy affordability and a need to abandon all programs
that do not relate to energy supply.

It will be a world wide wakeup, not just Australia.

Actually folks, I was talking about the relationship between the governments, & even more so, relationships & history between some of the main players in the EU.

There is little doubt that there is about as much good will in the negotiations going on there, as there is between Rudd & Gillard. Many are more interested in paying back old grievances, than in sorting out their problems.

I'm not sure which is the leader, but the EU, & the UN do appear to be excellent places to learn how to smile, as you sink in the knife.

Familiar anyone? Just as here, it's a bit hard to achieve much, while one hand is hiding the bloody knife behind the back.

Just in case you think I was just waffling on on my own about growth
perhaps you might find Gail Tvebergs writing on the subject of interest.

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/Economic-Growth-Being-Choked-by-High-Oil-Prices-and-Falling-Supply.html

Oh, this might be a bit more digestible;

http://tinyurl.com/d2uhl49

Europe! do any of us think it is alone.
Or to blame, do we understand Germany increased its income, productivity selling to those country's now in trouble.
And buying in to them, funding infrastructure?
The world like a Walt Disney thing, dived too often in to that money bin.
Any of us remember? that funny little Mouse , not mickey, Jewish I think.
Lecturing his recently arrived mouse nephew about Capitalism.
The part about credit, how it drove production and hence consumerism.
We today, may very well stand at the very edge of the greatest change in humanity's history.
Greece must fail to pay its debt, even the package says it will not pay half of it.
Italy just can not pay.
Great Depression, nothing great about it.
But we are only not in one because governments will not let it happen, but what if they can not stop it.
We will be no better than any country.
I think we AUSTRALIA stand on the edge too, a ten percent unemployment rate as a result of this, would start a landslide of house repossessions an unstoppable one.
But no, be aware, this is the start of something brand new.
It may take freedoms from us even lifestyles.
But a new financial system will come as a result of failures others imposed on us.

Belly said;
But no, be aware, this is the start of something brand new.
It may take freedoms from us even lifestyles.
But a new financial system will come as a result of failures others imposed on us.

Yes, you are right there are big changes coming. However I think it
may even make more freedoms available as everything becomes more local.
Unfortunately we are poorly served by all politicians as their ears
are filled with sand.
The influence of governments will wither, the more remote the more
the wither.

One thing that concerns me is that the funds necessary to build the
needed alternative energy systems will just not be there.
I am afraid that is what the global warming advocates have not taken
notice of what has been happening in the energy area.
It is highly likely that the zero growth era will not provide the
credit and other resources needed to build the alternatives to coal
and oil. Natural gas might have helped but like nuclear it is
persona non gratis.

Stockmarket gone to pot again, maybe it needs suspending, what would that do. Europe figuring out a decreased size eurozone. Au on verge of full employment again. Julia wants equal wages across all sexes. Au is not the problem. Can't we turn the radio off and forget about the rest of the world. Money for alt energy will come from company investment, be helpful if political climate was more sociable. Just have to hope Julia forges ahead, and gets women equal pay, what a winner. Surely tony wouldn't agree with that. Bought oil today, all cynthetic no mineral. Clean energy future.

Dear Bazz,

All technology know matter how efficient in its initial
stages needs great costs in maintenance and eventual
replacement. A simple example is the motor car. As well
as a variety of technical equipment around your house.

The population of our cities is growing and for existing
services to cope with the increasing demand - needs to be
continually upgraded or expanded. So instead of utilising
antiquated and inefficient methods of providing energy
it is just as economical if not more so in the long term
to utilise new technology. As the Director of the Yallourn
Power Station stated, "Yes it would be extremely inefficient
to maintain the current plant and we will gladly turn
to new technology..."

Again take your car. How much does it cost to maintain it,
replace the engine, replace the wheels, repair the body work,
repair the steering, replace the interior, and by the time
you're finished you could have bought two new cars.
It's the same thing here - except it's on a bigger scale.

Simple isn't it.

Bazz 579 we should not confuse the issues.
It is my view, not request no wanted but unavoidable , we will go the other way, more control less freedom.
579 I it is unlikely our voice will even be considered.
Scrooge Mac Duck got a mention, he like America, now the world, worships wealth creation, tells us it above else is good.
Italy now seems ready to fall, European Union may/ in my view will shatter.
In 1929/30 this would have bought the depression on a year ago.
Some thing very big will emerge,to see world trade and financial matters do not blast us back in to the stone age.
Bazz, this I know, your view of community's running them selves will not work/come about.
Folk with a sameness/ability/planing have tried it sorry it will not work.
I have dreamed such dreams, seen the controlling nature just two neighbor hood women,kill the glue holding a whole community together.
And it is no chance.
We will not run out of fuel, it will not be the one we use now.
We may not go Nuclear now but coal seam gas like it or not will continue to grow.
Protests or not big money wins every contest.

No Lexi, it is not simple !
In an era of the end of growth we will not have the GDP to have the
ability and funds to build new plant.
Credit is only available if there is a capacity to repay plus interest.

We are not talking about a temporary problem, this is permanent !
Our difficulty will be maintaining existing facilities.
Quote;
The population of our cities is growing and for existing
services to cope with the increasing demand

Increasing existing services will not be possible, except for local
projects that local communities can undertake.
However you might be right there in that there might be a very large
increase in illegal immigrants due to collapse in marginal economies
in Asia. Offset against that could be travel difficulties.

To sum up, financial resources will be very tight from now on.
China has managed to corner much of the spare available energy with
long term contracts and by buying oil fields such as many in Africa.
To cope we have reduced our (developed countries) consumption.

Today Greece, tomorrow Italy, day after Spain, France and finally
Germany ?
Oil prices have eaten their GDP, are UK, US and Aus next ?

ps we import all our petrol and two refineries were recently closed.

Dear Bazz,

We'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.

You feel that we've been hard done by.

It's best to remember that we in Australia:
1) Have it better than almost everybody economically.
2) Pollute more than almost everybody.
3) Stand to suffer heavily from Climate Destabilisation.

The shape of the climate policy Australa is adopting
is in many respects stronger that the proposed CPRS.
The so called "gateway targets" are more stringent, the
industry compensation slightly less generous, the
mechanisms to adjust targets and compensation better.
Most importantly, there is a mandated floor price on
carbon for the first three years of the scheme. This
particular measure is looking farsighted, given the recent
collapse in international carbon markets owing to the
struggling European economy. As a result Australia now
enjoys one of the highest carbon prices in the world,
with one of the strongest policy architectures to ensure
the decarbonisation of our economy. The government has
thought this scheme through very well.

Once this scheme is implemented and has been up and running for
a while - you'll see for yourself that your fears were
totally unfounded. Of course I don't expect you to believe me.
But time will take care of that.

Cheers.

Sorry Lexi, we are talking about different subjects.
CO2 & global warming has nothing to do with what I was saying.
Carbon taxes etc etc are not relevant.

It does not matter what the floor price of carbon is or is not.

The subject is;
The price of energy is using up so much money that it has affected
countries ability to repay debt.

I suggest that you read this;

http://tinyurl.com/d2uhl49

Dear Bazz,

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

However it still does not change my point of view.
I don 't buy your dismal outlook.
Perhaps the following website may allay your concerns:

http://www.foreignminister.gov.au/speeches/2011/kr_sp_111025.html

The Australian Economy: National Economic Resilience in the Midst of
Global Economic Volatility.

Ahh yes Lexi, you might well be a politician with that belief.
You have indeed touched the crux of the problem with your ref link.
Many have gone before you;

"All will be fine, there is no problem that cannot be solved"
Jo Bejelke Petersen "Now don't you worry"

There are just two governments that do not hold your opinion.
The UK and Sweden. The UK last year had the Energy Dept do a report
on the problem. The report was immediately tucked away out of sight.
Unfortunately the Guardian got wind of it and made a Freedom of
Information request for it but was refused.
The Guardian had to take the government to court to get access.
It confirmed what was widely known already.

The same thing happened with the Hirsch report for the US Dept of
Energy but it was dug out by a group of school boys !

Politicians are not facing up to it as I think that they are unable
to see a palatable solution to present to the people when they lift the veil.
In our parliament there are three known realists, Minister Martin
Ferguson, Barnaby Joyce and Christine Milne. There are probably
others but they dare not speak its name.

No, 2008 GFC was the first shot and the present problem in Europe
is the second part.
What you express is a common reaction when people first consider
this problem. Look at the reaction to the Qantas grounding.
Unbelievable, terrible thing to do !
What do you think will be the reaction if airlines are grounded permanently ?

Now don't get me wrong that probably won't happen this decade, but
as the OECD's International Energy Authority has warned that we have
to find two more Saudi Arabias this decade.
There is absolutely no way that any alternative system will supply
that amount of energy. Not even nuclear could cover that. It is too late.

I can only suggest you start reading.
Quite a number of books available, but local bookshops do not seem
to have any, Amazon has most. My library has two.

Dear Bazz,

Thanks for sharing your point of view.
Much appreciated. I still feel though
that comparing the Australian economy to that
of the UK and the US is like comparing apples and oranges.

If you're after particular information your regional
or state library should be able to help you find the
material you're after. They can source information from
periodicals, conference proceedings, reports, catalogues,
and various databases. They can also help you with online
searching.

See you on another thread.

Bazz sorry, with nothing but respect you are stuck on peak oil.
It plays NO ROLE in the World Economic crisis.
In truth if it played ANY PART we could fix it over night, for a time.
Governments must tax us.
They need us to pay for every thing.
A reduction in tax on petroleum products would increase productivity.
Just here, in Australia would breath life in to internal tourism.
Others will jump up and down! saying we must reduce use of fuel.
No we must not! far worse exists than fuel in the short term.
We are not going to see it, no one lives forever.
But one day fuels we would not understand, being used in things we would not dream of will come.
NBN one day will be the snail mail of its day, humanity moves constantly.
Our life is but a blink,200 years on if able to observe you and I would think we looked at another planet.
We are not headed back to the caves.
I recommend close thought be given to my possible new world order theory.
No not the conspiracy's, but just fact.
A new control over borrowing/lending/spending maybe even a lot more.
The world may well feel much pain,we may find less freedom.
But too, and end to toxic stupidity/greed/ shonky or silly dealings that threaten our financial system, will it come after the fall or before.
Bank on after after the pain and the suffering, drowning people are more likely to buy straws.

yes run lexie run

belly said..""Governments must tax us."'

well mate guess what
they are..[more than any other cuntry in the world]

we are overtaxed..[we as in the little guy]
while the big guys get nice tax fre lunches..

'we ' cant even claim the cost of going to work

""They need us to pay for every thing."'

yes thats right
like the rulers of grece..WONT TAKE A PAYCUT

but are only too happy to put nmore tax on the litle guy

BUT NOT TAX TRANSACTIONS..
[like g20 was SUPOSED to do at its last meeting]

yet in the next breath you say..""A reduction in tax on petroleum products would increase productivity.""

well mr bell..how about a tax cut on power?

belly your comming and going
at the same time

""Others will jump up and down!
saying we must reduce use of fuel.
No we must not!""

lol

""far worse exists than fuel in the short term.""

yes like home composting methane killing ozone
like industrialisation rebuilding our ebnergy system
while using the old energy system

like govt not able to afford pensions in the future

while not only paying todays [pension today]
but tomorrows pensions today too..[tax free]
but the rich get more from govt..today

just like tomorow
their wealth will be gone
just like the wealth of the poor

[but we poor allready..wont notice much difference]

we the meat eaters
can simple eat the vegan rich

""We are not going to see it,""

yes we are mate

[not the fuel thing..[thats spin
peak oil means only the half way point..not the end

and old oil wells
have been leeching out MORE oil into them

""no one lives forever.""

but the oil will oooze out for a loong time

and the tax on carbon..your kids will pay
will go up every year...[and by then..no more offset
cause braket crep has returned the theshold to tax the new poor]

""The world may well feel much pain,
we may find less freedom.""

im sure our kids
will feel the pain more than we do

thanks ju-liar
thanks alp
thanks lexie
thanks belly

""our financial system,""

*!*!..needs an ever growing tax system...!*!...*

figure it out
read your first words

yes drowing people clutch straws

but the greedy allready got them all

Well Hmmm excuse me OUG.
Trying to clear my throat.
And wipe my eyes.
LOL! that did it.
At a time this country is trying to introduce a bigger tax.
On firms harvesting our minerals.
And not getting much help.
We hear we are being robbed.
Not by foreign firms,not wealthy over seas share holders.
But by the government trying to save just some of of wealth.
Beware, not of Greece's debt but of the living breathing failure to understand, tax's are spent on us all mining profits not so.

*tax's are spent on us all mining profits not so.*

Actually Belly, not quite correct. Aware of it or now, if say
BHP makes good profits, they spend it on new projects for the
future or pay you dividends into your super fund. Australia's
wealth grows. When Govt spends it, its commonly peed up against
walls on another "you beaut" programme.

Note the thousands of extra people that this Govt has employed
in Canberra. Note also that countries like Italy and Greece
and in deep crap, because of bloated administrations.

If Govt wants to do more, why don't they become more
efficient? At present they hardly spend it so wisely,
that they should be given extra.

Dear Belly,

Yabby's could well be right. Pollies could possibly
achieve more if they spent every day prancing up and
down the main thoroughfare in Canberra waggling their
genitals at Japanese tourists. ;-)

Dear Belly,

Now you know that under that sweet exterior, Lexi in fact has
a filthy imagination :)

OK Lexi, well there is plenty of information available.
I have read most of the papers available from the various institutes
and universities. Upsalla Uni is where the ASPO is HQed.

Not to worry it will take time to sink in.

Belly said;
It plays NO ROLE in the World Economic crisis.

You are seeing it now, it was the cause of the GFC, and as they did
not realise it nothing they did had any effect as they applied
solutions for the wrong problem.

Yabby! if Lexi has not she is a rare human, just joking Lexi, but true too.
Now fellas, what bought about the GFC?
How long have we, all of us, wondered how long it would take, before the bottom fell out.
Greece has no sure way to make its residents pay tax, they do not.
It has much much more public servants per head of population than us.
Is Spain/Italy/Portugal/ Ireland/Great Briton/ list continues, are their problems about public service?
It must be so warming to have LABOR/UNIONS to blame for every thing yabby.
Those nice BHP people do build roads fund via tax a lot of things.
How dare! blind fools like me! say that once gone the minerals can not be replaced.
The hide of me! my government! trying to get some more for this country, your state.

*Is Spain/Italy/Portugal/ Ireland/Great Briton/ list continues, are their problems about public service?*

Indeed Belly, by joining the EU, the public service went CRAZY.
There are rules for everything and those rules need administering
and policing. They even had rules about cucumbers which are not
straight, being illegal.

The cost of all this administration is huge and the problem in
Europe is too much borrowing by Govts to pay too many costs.

Mr Barnett has already increased royalties for BHP, we don't
need the money to go to Canberra first, they only waste it on
more public servants. If we relied on Canberra for our roads,
they would still be gravel.

BHP pays around 45% of its profits in one form of tax or another.
When your Mr Rudd wanted to turn that into 58%, they rightly
protested. Why bother mining if the Govts wants nearly all the
profits?

Cut waste in Canberra, then we'll have better public services.

Dear Yabby,

I see that you took me seriously.
Good!
After all -
I wouldn't want you to think that I was facetious...

Dear Bazz,

If you've read most of the papers available from
the Institutions of Learning - you must be a
speed reader. I am impressed.

BTW: The correct spelling is - Uppsalla. ;-)

cont'd...

Another typo. The correct spelling is - Uppsala.
Sorry Bazz.

Ah yes Lexi, I keep getting it mixed up Uppsala & Upsalla.
I just had to go and look at Prof Kjell Acklett's (ASPO President) blog to check.

Belly, the linkage between oil price and the GFC is pretty direct.
I notice in the last year that many more economists are making that
connection in their comments.
In case anyone is interested here is the drill;

Oil production we now know peaked in 2006 and crude + all liquids
peaked in July 2008.
In 2007 oil & coal prices were rising and the economy was struggling
particualy in the US, but as it now seems the Europeans were stacking up debts.
Further into 2008 mortgage defaults were increasing fast.
Why, well the sub prime house loans were sitting there like a roadside bomb.
The food was getting dearer due to diverting corn into ethanol.
People drive to work in the US.
So they had a choice, buy food or buy petrol or pay the mortgage.
They did not pay their mortgage and Collateral Default Swaps were triggered.
The cost of oil went to $147 a barrel and the fuel cost in the US
went over 4% of GDP in July 2008 and it went BOOM in August 2008.
Economists have since decided that oil more than 4 to 5 % of GDP
will cause a recession. As GDP falls and energy costs rise, well ?

And the rest is history.

Bazz yabby I enjoy your company, always.
And yabby you may well be surprised, but if reading my posts not.
I know, not think, public servants, state federal local government,wast far too much.
I condemn privatization always.
And know if often costs even more, yabby it SOME TIMES sees former public servants, winning the contract, at a higher rate, rather than reforming the crimson place.
Bazz sorry oil has cost even more not long ago.
I fear not the shortages, not the impending end of it.
I fear it has become the tax gatherer, that governments unfairly and unwisely burden us with its costs.
If we OLO poster are Representative, are we?
I fear those who truly bought about the GFC will sneak away in the fog of miss information.

Now here is a very interesting point.
As some of you are aware the prediction of oil depletion was made in
1956 by M K Hubbard. He made two predictions one for US peak in 1970
and world peak in 2008 to 2010.
However it turns out there was a third prediction that the people
would have trouble accepting that growth could not continue after peak.

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2011-11-09/hubberts-third-prophecy

All these many years later he was spot on.
They laughed him off stage at conferences in 1956 and later but it
turned out he was right. Now they are still laughing.
Yet it looks like he is right again !

Actually Bazz, Hubbert did get a few things wrong.

In 2010 US production was 4 times higher then Hubbert had
predicted, 5.9 million barrels a day, versus his 1971
estimate of 1.5 million barrel a day.

Hubbert was imaginative and innovative in his use of
mathematics, but he left out two key elements, technological
progress and price.

Bazz yabbys point is well worth your attention.
We have other ways to fuel this world, maybe not yet but soon.
Back to the real reason for the GFC/and this thread,expand that to the EC,s troubles.
Money was first made by people like kings, we trusted the paper and coins would be changed for something of worth.
After all it is unless gold or silver only paper or near worthless metals.
Credit, lending in return for promise to pay, lending in return for getting more back, drives our economy's.
Growth. productivity, profit, small words, but a drug.
You and I in our youth knew, or soon learned, to live within our budgets.
Those offers of credit card got short shift on the way to the rubbish bin.
Not in Europe,both lender/sellers and borrowers forgot it has to be paid back.
Constant growth can not be sustained but is a requirement of so much of our lifestyle.
Fuel has little to do with GFC.

Yabby;
Your figures are way out.
I have not seen what Hubbard predicted for 1970 but as you can see
the peak was in 1970 at 9637000 barrels, 9.63Mbd not 1.5Mbd.
Assuming he did predict 5.9Mbd then from 14 years earlier not too bad.
He was in error in that he predicted 2008 at 100 Mbd for the world
when it was actually 76Mbd actually.
I think he was well up on technical developments as he was head of
Shell's research.
I wish I could predict lotteries or horse races, or indeed the share
market that well.

Decade Year-0 Year-1 Year-2 Year-3 Year-4 Year-5 Year-6 Year-7 Year-8 Year-9
1850's 0
1860's 1 6 8 7 6 7 10 9 10 12
1870's 14 14 17 24 30 33 25 37 42 55
1880's 72 76 83 64 66 60 77 77 75 96
1890's 126 149 138 133 135 145 167 166 152 156
1900's 174 190 243 275 320 369 347 455 488 502
1910's 574 604 609 681 728 770 822 919 920 1,037
1920's 1,210 1,294 1,527 2,007 1,951 1,700 2,112 2,469 2,463 2,760
1930's 2,460 2,332 2,145 2,481 2,488 2,723 3,001 3,500 3,324 3,464
1940's 4,107 3,847 3,796 4,125 4,584 4,695 4,749 5,088 5,520 5,046
1950's 5,407 6,158 6,256 6,458 6,342 6,807 7,151 7,170 6,710 7,054
1960's 7,035 7,183 7,332 7,542 7,614 7,804 8,295 8,810 9,096 9,238
1970's 9,637 9,463 9,441 9,208 8,774 8,375 8,132 8,245 8,707 8,552
1980's 8,597 8,572 8,649 8,688 8,879 8,971 8,680 8,349 8,140 7,613
1990's 7,355 7,417 7,171 6,847 6,662 6,560 6,465 6,452 6,252 5,881
2000's 5,822 5,801 5,746 5,681 5,419 5,178 5,102 5,064 4,950 5,361
2010's 5,474

Belly as you can see it was Yabby that was wrong not Hubbard.

Bazz, my figure is quite accurate and comes directly from
Pulitzer prize winning author Daniel Yergin, in his recent
800 page epic factual disussion of energy of all kinds,
called Quest.

If you want to be informed on the subject, I suggest that you
read a number of sources. Yergin sure did his homework on the
topic.

One of the chapters is indeed on what Hubbert did and did not
predict.

Yabby, I knew the figure you quoted must be wrong.
I doubt if Yergin would get it that wrong either.
I got that table from the US Govt EIA.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS2&f=A

Nothing more to say.

Bazz, I think that you are getting your wires crossed.

In 1971, Hubbert predicted that in 2010 the US would be producing
1.5 million barrels a day. The actual figure was 5.9 million
barrels, so he was out by a factor of 4.

We are mixing up US & world figures.
Also check if Yergin is referring to Tons as some stats are in tons.

I have not seen Hubbards figures for 2010, so what you are saying is
that the depletion is not as fast as Hubbard expected.
Yes, I think that was probably because of the Alaskan field.

The internet seems to have been fixed.
However production is still 4 or 5 times discovery.
That can only lead to one end.

Yeah Bazz, but its not all gloom and doom next month either. You
have to see the whole big picture.

For instance, there is still heaps of improvement in efficiency.
The average Yank Tank used to consume around 15 miles to the gallon.
Now they are over 35 miles to the gallon, as people change the fleet
to smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles. Now we are looking at
electric cars.

Then you have a whole heap of new ways to get more oil out of old wells.
Did you notice that Chevron are about to expand refining
capacity in Singapore? Well no doubt they expect a whole lot of
condensate from their 70 billion$ investment in Gorgon and Wheatstone.
In the US, BHP are spending billions developing shale gas. Gas prices
have actually been dropping. Drilling in deeper offshore areas is
only still developing. It won't be cheap oil, but we just don't know
what is there. Then there are lots of areas where at present nobody
is drilling, due to political risk. Like Venezuela and other places.

You claim that energy expeniture of 4% causes recession in the US.
Well they spend 15% on healthcare, what does that do?

Don't forget, that for every dollar that an American or European
spends on energy, somebody else is earning it. There are good
reasons why Rolls Royce sales are up 70% in the Middle East.

It's an interesting subject that's for sure. I read a lot about it a few years back when they were predicting shortages for 2010 to 2020. Then there was the story of Gold's theory regarding oil being abiotically produced deep in the earths crust. Stories about Mexican fields replenishing themselves after years of depletion, same for some of the wells in Saudi.

I don't know when we'll run out, but I can see it becoming more expensive as more people from developing countries begin their lifestyles of having a family car like we do. If the east continue on their trend, how long before there's none for us poor Aussies down here in the middle of nowhere? Why we aren't pushing LPG more and even Natural gas with our vast resources is beyond me. We could all be running around with cleaner cars for a fraction of the price. But it would seem our illustrious leaders would rather sell it cheap to our neighbours and extort from us a carbon tax for our use of oil.

Yabby,

What about the Alberta Tar Sands and the proposed Keystone pipeline to take the oil from the icky fields to the U.S.?

http://one-blue-marble.com/alberta-tar-sands2.html

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline

*Why we aren't pushing LPG more and even Natural gas with our vast resources is beyond me. We could all be running around with cleaner cars for a fraction of the price*

There is nothing stopping you, Rawmustard. Most taxis run on LPG.
But of course with the next oil spike, we'll see long queues at
the LPG converters once more. Until then people will pay for liquid
convenience and then stampede like a herd of zebras.

*What about the Alberta Tar Sands and the proposed Keystone pipeline*

What about them, Poirot? If you think that people arn't going to
trash some far away environmental places in order to maintain their
cushy lifestyles, you have lots to learn about walking, talking primates.

Now you know why I live on 1200 acres, where I make the rules

As the thread wanders even further from its intended path I had another look.
At the authors first post.
Events move very fast in our world, we can not blame Hasbeen for that.
But if we let Greece take his advice, very soon all of Europe,maybe the world, would be in recession maybe Depression.
In the end every one of us, have put forward ideas like that.
Fireing off on impulse thoughts and ideas that prove to be quite wrong.
The real problem?
For all of us, is understanding that, and we will never change that.