Houellebecq:"Note though that every older guy was once a young guy, who has 'wasted' already 18 years (35-17) of prime fertility, and you are talking about the last 5 years (assuming couples of similar ages). "

The fathers of those men were married by their 20s largely and they did so in the firm expectation, even for the purpose, of having children. It seems that men today are still getting hitched, but they have no intention of fathering children. That's a hell of a social change in just one generation, especially since it has occurred during a time of unmatched prosperity. I posit that it is precisely the discriminatory nature of both the Fanily Law and the Child Support Agency, both of which effectively act to redistribute the father's wealth to the mother in the event of a couple with children divorcing, that is the major causative factor.

Where once a slightly shaky relationship may have lead to some couples deciding to have kids to try to "save the marriage", now it is very much cause to make sure none come along. After all, once she's got the kid(s), she no longer needs the man.

Hasbeen, spot on.

Oh anti, one day you'll find a lovely lass who needs you;-)

We can compare women to horses 'till the cows come home, but in the end they have thoughts and feelings and a lot of love to give and receive. The women that is.

'It seems that men today are still getting hitched, but they have no intention of fathering children.'

Not in my circle of friends.

Another thing to take into account is real estate prices and the meme of providing a home for children with that picket fence, and 'kids' staying home until 30 years old and not becoming adults.

'they did so in the firm expectation, even for the purpose, of having children.'

Then you have the more religious conservative society and the less slutty (sorry liberated) women. It was harder to get casual sex, f&ck buddies and friends with benefits, and even no internet porn back then. If you wanted to get laid and impress your parents, you'd get married. Then it's easier to survive on 1 wage, and no childcare fees. The world was more set up for couples. Now it's set up for singles with expendable income.

Anyway it's all speculation until we do a study. Maybe you can write a survey.

Q: Why don't you want to get married and have kids by 25?
20yo A: I want to travel, I want to play the field, none of my friends are doing it.

Q: Why don't you want to get married and have kids by 35?
30yo A:Sure I like the girl, but I'm not sure I can only have sex with her for the rest of my life. It's comfrotable and safe, but I fancy I could do better. I want to get a deposit for a house first anyway.

Q: Why don't you want to get married and have kids by 40?
35yo A: I don't think I'm really that into kids you know, and I suspect the fact she wants to have kids before it's too late is clouding whether I can trust she really is that into me.

Even women dont want kids until their 30s.

Q: Why don't you want to get married and have kids by 25?
20yo A: I want to travel, I've been told I should aspire to more than just being a mom, none of my friends are doing it, and I don't want to lose my figure.

Q: Why don't you want to get married and have kids by 35?
30yo A:Sure I like the guy, but is he really father material. He's kind of imature, I don't want 2 kids to look after. It's comfrotable and safe, but I fancy I could do better. Maybe he wont have enough money for me to stay home with the kids if he doesn't start taking his career seriously.

Q: Why don't you want to get married and have kids by 40?
35yo A: I do! I'm running out of time! This guy is nice, not really what I would have imagined, but he'll have to do. I'm sure he'll step up if he has to, the extra responsibility will be good for him. Our relationship isn't going that well at the moment, but if I leave him I wont have time to find another guy, get the relationship established and then have kids.

Just for anti;

I'm sure once I have the kids, if it doesn't work out I can divorce him and take the house and make him pay child support and then I'll find another richer man (who I LIKE having sex with) and we can live in the house the ex lovingly renovated and have all the money and the kids and a romantic weekend every 2 weeks with no kids while he looks after them and spends the last of his cash for the month trying to buy their love back after I have poisoned them against him.

Houellebecq

Doff's me cap I do. Some of your best work to date.

ROFL - funny coz its true. Human beings; the world's most hilarious apes.

Ammonite,

Houellie's gonna write a book - he's the new Bhagwan! : )

Can't wait!

Houllie, the survey has been done. The original post was based on it.

I'm quite aware there are lots of reasons for all sorts of things. That doesn't mean specific issues should not be discussed or that all those factors are equivalent in either importance or prevalence. Dear me, I thought you were beyond "Critical Thinking 101".

The factors you mention have always been with us. The factors of the CSA and the Family Court have only been with us for 23 and 35 years respectively. Men who are now of the age referred to in that survey have spent all their lives in the shadow of those two institutions. That is a factor that has not applied to previous generations. Your efforts to pretend it's not important are not convincing.

Most marriages end in divorce. For non-marital cohabiting relationships the rate of breakdown is even higher. When there are no children, there is effectively no difference in the way the two partners are treated psot-separation. When children are involved there is an overwhelmingly disproportionate likelihood of a bad outcome for the father.

Most men are not stupid and if they are given the choice, will not take the chance when the risk is so great and the chance of reward so small. Of course, lots of men don't get any choice at all - "I can't understand it darling, I've been taking the Pill religiously"...