King Hazza,

The medical establishment is speaking here from the perspective of a woman's physical viability in gestation and birthing....obviously the human species has an optimum physical age for the propagation of offspring.

Speaking personally, I had one child at 22 and another at 41. My second child was smaller and I required the assistance of an emergency caesarian for his survival. On the other hand, I'm a bit wiser the second time around and much more relaxed and in control these days.

That;s how I always ee it Poirot. I would never have had the maturity to have a child in my 20s. But damn I wish I had the energy I had back then.

So, the equation is to me....

Have kids when you're physically ready and emotionally and financially unprepared.

Have kids when you're emotionally and financially prepared, but well past your physical peak and with lower energy levels.

Then again the energy levels in your 20s were helped by the no-responsibility and not having to care for children.

In the end, who cares really? Have kids, don't, have them early, or late, have them leave home when you're still in your 40s. But I'd rather have been hostelling and shagging around in my 20s rather than 50s. Ewww dirty old men in hostels.

People will always justify their life decisions because your life decisions are always the best ones for you. Irrelevant to other people. If a young guy wants to justify his decision not to settle down and have kids on the CSA and Family Court, well, that's a pretty sad and defeatist way to look at the world. To me.

And here I was worried about scatter cushions, and I have managed to assert my misogynist machismo and deny my wife her Human Rights! of having scatter cushions. Anti, you too could one day be so brave!

Houellie,

When is your book on life coming out? (Honestly, if your wrote one, I'd buy it)....I think your theory on scatter cushions is spot on : )

Houellebcq:"maybe they're different women. Those women who want extra conditions favouring women in CSA and Family court, and those looking for a hubby to have kids with."

Maybe they are, but we're talking about the men. The message from the women in both those stories is that men are unwilling to commit to fathering a child even well into their 30s and 40s.

I don't buy your line that all men of that age are immature party animals, sorry. they are happy to commit to relationships, according to the reports, but not children.

The fear of that 1 bedroom flat is a very important consideration, I'd say. Men know that if there are no kids it's 50:50 at worst and see you later. With kids it's the flat and the CSA. As was said earlier, everyone knows at least a couple of blokes who see their kids every second weekend and the only thing they can afford to do is go to the park or possibly Maccas and moan about what they used to have. It "frames the debate" very powerfully for those men, I'd suggest.

KH, the age of the women surveyed was not my point. The fact that the reason they were dissatisfied was that men were unwilling to become fathers was meant to be the topic. Even those men already in committed relationships, even including marriage.

Poirot, your experience sounds like it's the norm.

Sorry I missed this classic..

'If you need a committed woman these days, buy one'

OMG!

OK anti, so now we are onto older guys 35+, when I was talking about young guys. Note though that every older guy was once a young guy, who has 'wasted' already 18 years (35-17) of prime fertility, and you are talking about the last 5 years (assuming couples of similar ages).

How quick do men change their minds? Most men get to 35 and they still have the same hairstyle they had when they were 25. And wear the same clothes. Sometimes not just the style, literally the very same clothes. Men are change-averse. How many times have you heard the line, 'We're having fun aren't we, why mess with things and get married'.

Some are waiting around for Gemma Ward to come along, some are scared the sex will dry up as r0bert rightly pints out, and some just like meandering along. And why not, it's the poor chicks that have a deadline. I reckon few are really thinking about CSA, if they were, I'd argue the real fear, underneith, is the call for emotional honesty from their partner. ie The convenient, safe, quasi-relationsip is being unravelled for what it is.

Anyway, I would guestimate 70% of the children on this earth, men were convinced by their partners it was a good idea. Not dragging and screaming, but it's just not what they... Men aren't brought up with dolls and don't push prams around all day like my 3 year old. They love the kids when they come though. Also some men settle down because they WANT to be under the thumb, with someone they trust knows what's good for them. I've seen em do it man, looking for a new mommy.

As I said, people make choices and they make rationalisations. With the right chick most men are happy to 'take a chance on love'.

Sometimes when I read this site, I feel like the last of the romantics.

Poirot, Yabby has convinced me to be the next Bhagwan:-)

Houelle is right, there are 2 different sorts of women.

However, RObert is also right. Houelles 2 women are the same woman, at different stages of the same relationship.

When I was a young feller, [twenties], a mature lady horse breeder gave me some advice.

She said, "young hasbeen, look at those 2 horses, the mare & the stallion. She's all over him, won't leave him alone. She wants to get in foal, although perhaps she doesn't know it"

"He doesn't want to have anything to do with her, because a couple of days ago she tried to kick his head off, when he showed interest"

"If he gives in she'll worry him to death for a few days, but then, when her body knows she in in foal, he had better piss off quick". "She'll be back to trying to kick his head off, if he comes looking again".

"Just you remember young feller, all females are the same. Girls are no different to that mare. They want your sperm, when they want it, the baby is what we want & will love, you're just a nuisance after we get it, so you can piss off, just send money".

So many blokes complain about the once a month token sex. One neighbour recently reckoned he put S50,000 a year into the household, so he was paying S4166.66 a lay, & it wasn't even good sex anymore.

How could we have been so stupid as to give her a legal way of claiming all the booty, when they kick us out.

And then they complain that blokes won't commit, & don't want children, what the hell did they expect.