Do we need one, should we care what some do with their money.
Yes we need one, yes we should and must care.
I refuse to use them.
Have but very limited and I thank two addicted to them, who could not afford to be for that.
Sydney 17 years of age after a very hard days work my Foreman took me to a club.
I had never seen them before but watched him put his wages in to one.
I won, quite a lot may have become addicted.
I continued to give him, as a gift, my winnings.
He sweat on brow continued pulling that handle like his life depended on it.
Yes we neede to enforce limits on some.

I do not intend that I get overly involved in the politics side of this debate.
Not to say others should not.
In other threads I have pointed out my growing belief we need consensus on issues not fixed ranting.
I have twice seen the very bad side of this gambling issue right at my side.
It was near twenty years after my introduction to poker machines that I played them again.
I had worked along side a good much older man.
He told me of his once duty every morning to set the percentage the club he had lead received from porker machines
It was 17% 17 coins in every hundred never came back .
And I learned much of life from that man, I was well into gambling by then but he told me some clubs, then a long time ago,put returns of much less just by turning a nob.
Handles had gone by my return , a very close mate asked me to have a beer at a near by club.
Far from home I was unaware he had lost a fortune there.
We played and lost, he borrowed and lost, barmaids looked very concerned .
Extremely so.
I slipped in to the next bar, he could not see me ,and asked the same woman what is going on??
She told me a story few knew, he was one of about 15 who lost thousands.
That small sea side bowling club never told any one to stop playing.
should they?
Elderly women, spend dead husbands super in desperation day after day.
Is that ok??

Many of these clubs are simply a front for pokies, as they to are addicted to them.

They, the clubs, have become so dependent on the pokies that they would simply fail without them, this is why they are fighting so hard to stop these proposed changes.

Surely.common sense suggests that if one can loose as much as $1200 in just one hour, then we have a major problem.

Two things come to mind.

Limit the amount one can loose, and stop welfare money being wasted in these, and any other form of gambling.

These pubs and clubs are one contributer to the failing retail sector, as people simply can't spend money twice.

I am all for limiting the losses, provided it doesn't effect the (non problem) gambler.

Sadly though, this is yet another case of the small minority being given the majority of attention.

Belly I don't use them either (once in Vegas). The whole set-up does not trigger any sense of fun for me.

I don't know the legislation well enough to comment beyond what I've heard from the protagonists but I get the impression that the general thrust is that everyone who might wish to use a poker machine will have to go through some kind of registration process based on the idea that it will let problem gamblers set limit's away from the machines. Meanwhile many other forms of gambling won't be regulated in the same way.

Seemingly a small likely hood of gains for problem gamblers and their families with the potential that a lot of non-problem poker machine users won't bother due to the red tape involved so a significant hit for the clubs who use the income.

I'm generally opposed to government regulating the bulk of the population because of the actions of a minority unless the likely benefits are really clear (and I still have reservations). As an approach to government to leads to ever more regulation of those who do quite well at managing their own lives, generally poor outcomes for those who don't and in my view an increased proportion of the latter.

Still thinking about it but my impression at this point is very limited gains in exchange for yet another intrusion of the nanny state into the lives of consenting adults.

R0bert

Here in WA, pokies are banned (except for Burswood Casino) they always have been....so it's just one less problem for society to deal with. It doesn't feel like we're missing out or living in a nanny state because we've never had them.

The reality is that the availability of such devices are a temptation and a tool for the exploitation of those who typically can least afford to play them.

Maybe we should have "plain packaging" for pokies as proposed for cigarettes - drab, plain olive boxes without all the flashing lights and musical tones with a few basic buttons and a display showing how much you have won or lost.

I remember when the Clubs whined about how it was going to be the end of them when pokies were allowed into pubs and then again when smoking was banned.

Suggest they lose their generous tax concession for being "non-profit organisations" and let's see how quickly they change their tune.

The NSW government is the one addicted to pokies. They would become insolvent if not for pokie revenue. It's one of yer more regressive taxes, yet quite voluntary. A lazy 2 Billion a year comes in handy to a wasteful state governmnet.

I think it should be amplified. I believe all state revenue should come from traffic fines and gambling. It's all voluntary and if people are happy to fund our schools and hospitals while they watch flashing lights (pokies and speed cameras), I can only see that as a good thing.

In fact, if we made all tax a lottery where a few people won people would be much happier to pay tax. I always look at the queue outside news agents when there is a big lotto jackpot and think to my self what a generous community I live in, where all these people are lining up to pay their share.

People addicted are at least getting that dream of being rich. I sometimes buy a lotto ticket, and hold it in my wallet for a year, and never check the numbers so I am potentially a millionaire, and my dream lasts and lasts. Saves a lot of money by not buying a new one every week.

People can get addicted to anything. Take away pokies and they'll just switch to horses, or sex or drugs or shopping. Sex and drugs don't give as big a benefit to the community, but I suppose we could convert them to shopping. We're always in need of a good little consumer, it helps Our Lord, the Economy.

Hee, hee, Houellie, I love your logic....

My pappy managed to keep us fairly poor by an addiction to gambling on the gee gees. You're right that humans are uncommonly inspired by their addictive tendencies.....and the government takes full advantage of that. Pokies do seem rather convenient - a machine with lights and colours and "action".

Yep, it could be the pinnacle of evolution : )

mate..there is a thing called found money
[money that isnt 'real' to us
cause we didnt eaern it

or stole it
o won it

we try to get rid of it quickly
there is nothing wrong with pulling the handle a few times

but those who do it for hours at a time
mate..their trying to forget
how they found the money

that we got the head of channle 9
advocating for these diehards to keep gambling
that he has sports bet on his football shows
that tv influences sports

mate these fools
with found money
let them pay more tax

sue a drink cant hurt you
but many drinks make you drunk
the main driver in this loves taking your cash

its only fair to limit..how much of these druugie addicted to gambling
tax they should be allowed to take..at any given time

heck they can index tax on smoking addiction
but cant tax miners,..gamblers..bankers nor hookers

foot ball is for those that like balls
run by those who would eat em

watched by those who like to watch
and gambled on by fools with too much found cash
or that like to pull on the handle

How can you put a ban on one gambling outlet, such as poker-machines, and yet allow horse-racing, two-up (legal in Kalgoorlie during Race-round), but a two-up 'place' out of town. Should we stop people drinking?, betting on the AFL, and other games?, As a young lady in Sydney in the sixties, we used to go the the sporting club and play the poker machines, the difference was that we took a small amount of money with us for a few drinks and to play the pokies, the rest of our ready cash was left at home. When the money ran out, we left. Whilst I empathise with people who have addictions, they need to make big efforts to overcome those addictions. I really don't think that it is the Governments place to ban some places and not others, bending to pressure is not the answer, as shown by the debacle between the incumbent government and Mr. Wilkie.
NSB

NSB,

You make a good point about abundant opportunities to gamble in our society. However, these machines are designed to optimise temptation. It's just a matter of feeding coins into them...so easy to just keep doing it.
There is something inherently adverse to resistance in such a set-up. It's the reason they are placed in these places. The profit made from the inability of people to control their addiction is the bedrock on which the pokie industry rests. It's a deliberate exploitation of human weakness - for profit.

its sad the topics we do pick up on
nsw is planning to sell the snowey

why because they are so addicted to money
they went and spent on credit..

so even govt is going to fight this all the way

i think we are focused too much on the main issue
govt love of our money

heck labor came in in qld
and legalised prostitution and gambling
then gradually have sold the silver..heck even turned the treasury building into a gambling den

we hear much of speed revenue raising
yet last night..media watch says that is our delusion
go figure it had two govt reports that said speed camera's work

yes govt can say this
despite suicide rate being twice the road toll
[but heck you cant tax the booze and pills and guns..or cars]
that are assisting these suicides to die

heck
i feel we are being shafted
and still not seeing the forrest for all the revenue raising

twice as many die from suicide
than by the 'road toll'[pay the troll the toll]

let tax them...commiting suicide
put cameras on suiciders..on gamblers
use faciual recognition..with a big sign on it
smile your on candid camera

why are we paying casuals..[ie polititions]
a life time pension..or one or two terms

*ITS TIME*
charge them..for exceeding the guilt trip

Has this legislation actually been passed?

According to Rob Oakeshott on "Q and A," last night
it's currently only up for discussion in Parliament.
There is no legislation as such. Merely a report.
Sounds like it's a bit of a storm in a teacup at
present.

What's wrong with putting a self-imposed cap for
problem gamblers? Of course not all problem gamblers
will want to impose caps on themselves. I believe
that the concern by the clubs is the installation of
computerised tracking of gamblers. Presumably all gamblers
would have to put in their ID, thus the computers would
determine those who have a gambling problem and would
automatically place a limit. Therefore I believe the
Clubs are objecting to the cost of this computerised
system and the loss of income from problem gamblers.

If the Clubs didn't pay huge salaries to players and
officials they wouldn't have to complain about losses
from gambling. In the past the clubs survived on their
own merit and supporter base.

I do hate these pushes by "concerned citizens" to stop someone doing something, what ever it is, provided it harms no one else.

My father was a gambler, but I don't recall going hungry. On those occasions when he got lucky we all did. Gamblers are often generous people, & he would spread his good luck around everyone.

I have always been addicted to something. Flying, sailing, motor racing, show jumping, there has always been some expensive consuming passion. I have never had the time or money left over to go "clubbing", drinking, or playing pokies.

I do feel sorry for those who have so little in their lives that they do want to do these things, however I don't believe anyone else has any right to try to stop them doing what they wish. I presume they, like me, are getting their adrenaline rush, only in a perhaps more sedentary way.

I am very glad that those officious busy bodies who have this urge to control others, have the poor pokie players in their sights. This keeps them too busy to worry about me.

I sure hope they never succeed in their interfering efforts, because I & one of my activities are likely on their hit list of places to stick their unwanted noses.

That some silly little man, with just a few pointy head votes, from the funny state, should be given this much influence is truly disgusting. But then that's another argument.

Dear Hasbeen
You are right about addictions. I am addicted to letting people do what they think is right for them. There are many outlets for people who are in trouble with addictions, whatever they might be, so if people really want to stop their addictions there is plenty of opportunity to do so.
I was more concerned about the four corners on the ABC last night. Those poor disabled kids who were continually abused by the bus driver of St.Ann's school in S.A., that someone could take advantage of disabled kids (mentally) is beyond the pale. The whole program left me feeling physically sick. Then I started to watch Q&A, it all seemed to be so trite to me, after the program which came before it. Shame on all paedophiles, and more shame on the Priest who denied that it existed.
NSB

Good on you, Hasbeen, for not going hungry when your dad gambled.

We went hungry, sat in the dark and constantly moved house because my dad gambled...lots of fun for the kiddies.

Yes, it was his weakness that affected us. However, I believe, that the ease of access and the nature of pokie addiction is impacting the lives of many children as it did my childhood.

Many of my family members have been caught up in the bondage of gambling. Thankfully Christ Jesus rescued me from this curse before I was able to waste my and my families hard earned fruit. Other members of my family own nothing and even if they did would put it through pokies or on the next dish licker race. One of my first jobs in the public service (ha ha) many years ago as a young man was to pick up my alcholic/gambling bosses a couple of times a week from the clubs after very extended lunch breaks.

In all the misery that gambling causes it is only a small impact compared with the porn industry which degrades humanity, causes disease to be spread, increases sexual abuse among children and destroys families far more than the gambling industry.

belly your breaking your usual routeen
and made no further comment..either here..on this topic
nor the other one
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4728&page=0

your usually back on line after lunch
and i trust that your fine

or just reading the link
i suggested on that other topic

anyhow we are all addicts
mine is i worry about others
so please respond...soonish

i hate worrying

it cant be a shock
that ipods were invented iover 100 years ago

so much more has been invented since then
[and those in hell so love to gamble]

who can resist something...
apparently for nothing

or our blind luck beating the oddds

anyhow ol mate
hope to see ya soon

back on that 'other thread'

if not we know
we will meet again

love ya bro..

what you think is important
your questioning makes me think
let us know your ok

ok?

I am in favour of the poker machine limit!

This has been exactly what I have always done... even though I hate the things.

In days prior to pokies in Victoria, friends would come to Sydney and always want to go to the clubs, as boring for me as that was.

So I'd get a $4 tube of 20c pieces, put them all through, then play the stupid pokies.

That was in the days when the money tinkled into the tray after every win.

When I had spent the $4 I'd take what was in the tray and cash it in.

Usually I ended up winning a couple of bucks, or at least had a percentage of the $4 I had inserted.

It was my way of having self control.

Later when the winnings were retained in the machine I never played the pokies. It was obvious why they stopped paying out into the tray. Most people just keep playing and spend both their original investment and their winnings this way.

So give it a try... It used to work for me!

As far as I know NSW had poker machines decades before the rest of the states.
Sorry but I find the way the statement nanny state is used quite selective.
As stunning as it may be for some we always have been such.
And in fact quite Socialist in part ,and we would go to war if some of our nanny state safe guards are removed.
In work my trips away over night or for a week, saw nights in clubs and pubs.
NSW has banks of them in pubs too.
Myself and mates would head for TAB, often we would pool $20 each half for poker machines half for punting.
We, like almost every one, never expected a return.
Sitting their nearly always, was elderly women or younger putting cash in as if their life depended on it.
Even worse? men still in work cloths doing that consenting adults?
How about the hungry kids at home.
These two nigh mares are true!
Hard working loved bush man, wed and watched his wife, gamble every cent away, two homes and land his via three generations of family owner ship.
He quietly slipped in to a shed and hung himself the day before repossession.
As a union official I helped as I could in 5 such deaths, each of those involved the gambler killing him self twice after wife and kids left.
Poker machines used as I do are ok.
Building palaces by letting low income victims, well if nanny state suits you ok.
My idea is its enforcing some thing clubs, long ago, could and should, in the best do now.
If nothing else matters we SHOULD try to help those unable to help them selves.

It seems that there's more to this anti-pokies campaign
than just politics. (What a surprise). From Eddie McGuire,
Jeff Kennett, retired Liberal Senator Coonan, and quite a few
others - all have vested interests (mega bucks) invested.
And there is a conflict of interest muddying the anti-pokies
campaign. The following website is just one example:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/09/05/bolt-talks-up-anti-pokies-campaign-fails-to-disclose-association/

Lexi

I assume your research is right as far as the interests of Kennet, MacQuire etc. Don't forget however the Labour party has many who stand to lose from restrictions on gambling. In Canberra we have the popes place (Southern Cross club), the Labour club and numerous sporting clubs who will lose out. I suspect many unions also benefit from these things as their membership has declined so rapidly over the last 20 years. I for one would be happy to see all one armed bandits (showing my age) banned. I doubt whether blanket restrictions or bans will change a gamblers behaviour. There are many more ways for them to blow their doe.

Wobbles, I think that's a good place to start. After all, if we make them unattractive, it should make some difference.

So why not just limit the amoun that can be lost in any one machine ad, if clubs insist on having high volume machines, then tax them big time.

From what I understand thi is about effecting all pokie players an that's the part I don't get.

I will divert my thread now, I just must.
But return after to its intended paths, please do not see this as me putting barriers in your way comment as you wish.
A TAX ON FOOTBALL?
WHO THEN GETS THE TAX, IF YOU BUY THE LIE! FROM RSL AND bowling clubs, from ethnic clubs and from hotels.
MUST WE? put every issue in the I hate Labor/Liberal basket?
NANNY STATE! we prohibit youth from drinking, voting, put pedestrian crossings on roads, we pay in part health costs for every one even self inflicted , nanny state?
Out country is desperately in need of answers to Drug use, its destruction of so many lives the fouling of our institutions by its bribes and purchasing of police and law.
Yet legislation meets with nanny state claims?
Have interstate people seen our clubs? do they know how much was paid ,,, to Labor and Liberals to allow pubs owned by questionable front people, to have poker machines in there.
Do you know of former ALP Ministers and Liberals who own such pubs.
NANNY STATE? is it ok to see kids go hungry day after day because dad is in the pub spending the last cent.
Do we then let the voices saying action against such is nanny state rule?
Drop drug laws stop picking the human wreckage up from our streets and let them die.
Those calling this a tax are? no dare not say.
South Sydney NRL club was dropped from the game.
Two rich men bought it, payed the debts,that part of our City is poor mans country.
They sickened by the poker machine grief, for a long while banned them!
That is what we should be asking, knowing they thieve, that the end result is cash for the owners why not ban them.
No one is asking for that,I would do it is football, a reason I love life, worth the sponsorship of hungry kids?
Is politics our only moral compass?

Belly,
Never been a problem fo me as I don't play them. I find them boring. I belong to a soldiers club and visit occasionly and enjoy the facilities the machine players provide for me. I used to enjoy the atmosphere at my local pub but gave it away when pokies were installed as the place changed, you could no longer have a quiet beer and a yarn to a mate.

Here is a link to another aspect of the debate.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-28/gamblers-recruited-into-drug-trade/3025290

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you Andrew Wilkie for your "Footy tax"!

Thanks for delivering a cashed up campaign against Labor right in the middle of Labor heartland, for which the coalition does not have to lift a finger.

Thank you Juliar for being so desperate to hold onto power, that you gave this greenie independent legislation that will strip Labor of probably a dozen seats in the next election.

Thanks Andrew for doing unto Labor what those in the coalition only dreamed of.

In the early 60s I had a lot of contact with a large company based near Frankston, Vic.

At the end of the day a few executives would go to a businessman's club nearby.

This was a small but lovely place, quiet, with quality furniture, & a calm atmosphere, where the business could be concluded over a meal, & a drink, in comfort, & some style.

I was more than a little jealous when I compared this club to our businessman's club in Sydney, where the clang of the old one arm bandits caused a noisy brassy atmosphere, certainly not the place to conclude your days business.

Then Vic got poker machines, & it all changed.

The clubs were no where near as nice, to my mind, but the patronage quadrupled in a year, then did so again & again. They became as noisy & cold as their Sydney counterpart.

I must be way out of step, as their patronage increased, their attraction to me decreased. I can't stand poker machines, but for those who do, it's their business, & no one else's.

Close observers will have noticed a change, in me.
The caps are not heat or anger just to highlight.
I side step political baiting.
I dislike Andrew Wilkie, always have.
Nothing to do with Poker machines .
He ran third, won his seat on Labor and Liberal preferences.
Xenophon too, never liked him, think he is a road block to democracy.
The DLP senator, Labor put him there!
Single green in the lower house? rode in on Liberal preferences.
Not one of them should be in the house.
I HAVE A PLAN! the incoming government in 2013 Conservative one, must, along with Labor fund and pay for such as NSW Labors country Labor.
And run them, both sides, in every seat, to take those preferences away from mentioned above.
And the greens.
I did not expect this thread not to be tainted with the way we talk politics here,it would have been too much.
Can we briefly, look at the issue.
ten am this morning 6 for some pubs opened doors to people who had been waiting for? the pokies
Some had stolen some thing to sell, to bet others hope blinding them thought about a win that may fix things.
politics? are we unable to think for our selves is it always some one else we blame for not caring?
Goggle this mornings story linking drugs and these machines visit reasons people kill them selves.
It is us, me and you, who should demand an answer and us who should ask what football tax.
That claim should HIGHLIGHT much we hear is a constructed lie.

belly quote..""much we hear is a constructed lie.''

yep
thats why any tax is bad
we yap on about..druggies or kids or kliberals or unions
cause we like to yap on

why do we yap on
the same reason those with found money
play it..into into the one armed bandit

bordom
im blogging cause im bored
[and hope that my bordom..avoidance..
can help change things..towards the better

of course i know its futile
just as the tax on smokes didnt stop me smoking

just like the putche for taxing booze
wont stop the boozers

there are those with too much credit
and too much time to waste/..so we have a puff..or a sip
or take a walk..get stoned or drunk..or go out to score..for the other adictions

anything can be addictive
[heck i used to blog 16 hours a day
and protested months at a time
but to what end

to fill in the blank spots..of a blank life?
so bored politiions can fill in time and say
hey look we made 149 new laws..

increased tax revenue 50%
created 5000 nice clean new beurocrats
who will be surveyed..and flexie times intio their generous pensions
all while making too many new rules..cause that is what govt does..when its bored...[make new income streams]

poker machines are just the next cure all
to overcome 'beuro-roc/rat-tic' boredom

we dont need
new laws or new taxes

we just need to ban
the greedy multiplay ones

and takeaway the bells and wistles..
[heck i like that plain lable idea]

and the pictures can be words..
or letters..so the key would be to match a specific sentance
or make a specific random word...

[i think we should say...'chose
your here..to socialise..or specialise
here to drink..OR GAMBLE..

[and need to licence to do one or the other]
set limit..once the limit is reached..your licence gets voided
[till you sober up]

a set limit..[that cant exceed ten%
of your bankcard balance

no notes
no coins

only on credit

[and renting a seat/stool/.chair
costs extra...[heck we could give kids a job
renting them..

just like beach chairs]

Belly,

I would agree with you to some extent, I think most of the independents are self serving trolls.

However, from a purely strategic point, the unholy alliance that Juliar has had to cobble together to attain power, and the concessions she has had to make with the "Footy tax" the carbon tax, and the NBN, has meant that the Labor brand is slowly and surely being eroded to the point of being valueless.

This can be seen in what is happening in the states and polls.

I don't think Abbott would have had much of a free ride either, but at least he would not have had to deal with Bandt and Wilkie.

I have no intention of addressing one poster again.
But ask to be judged by all here.
I have again seen a deliberate LIE used in this debate, this need not be about politics.
If some insist it is then show me how it in ANY WAY is a tax.
The plan is aimed at stopping the 12% who gamble too much.
No tax,not one cent extra to play the machines in this proposal.
Just a regulation that SELF SET pre playing limits be set.
A TAX ON FOOTBALL?
Is it not true football clubs make up less than 30% of all clubs and pubs who have poker machines.
Julia Gillard can not win an election.
If Tony Abbott and his front bench went to prison in the morning Gillard would be trashed by Conservatives womens scon making team in an election.
So why the need to lie, knowingly heartlessly lie?
Football tax?
Poker machines ,see this days headlines, drive crime,hungry kids
They breed social problems.
We should talk about them about all gambling, the social effects the crime around all betting.
And start with? FOOTBALL! players, as in cricket, engineering results for? CASH!

From the data it is about 2.3% that gamble too much not 12%.

Thread has become a victim of our hung Parliament and the loss of faith in truth.
Politics has every right to intrude on every issue but lets look closer.
We are talking about poker machines not problem gamblers in general, that figure is said to be 12%
An intrusion, the deliberate recounting of Eddy Maguires lie, TAX ON FOOTBALL, must be confronted.
Why I will never know.
He is well rebutted in all media and often walks with a foot in his mouth.
Be warned! do not let our next government and its supporters get away with lies even before taking office.
Tell me.
In those states have poker machines how many are in Bowling clubs.
How many in Golf clubs.
RSL/Returned Services.
How many in other sporting clubs include the lot cricket ext but exclude football.
How many are Social clubs EG workers Church ethnic?
My figure of 30 football is looking shaky, may be 12%
Now TAX a collection of funds, who proposes doing that.
How much more will players pay.
Is it not true,the claim it is a tax is BECAUSE FEARS IT WILL BRING PROBLEM GAMBLERS TO BET LESS.
Moral fiber we once called it,
We could talk about is it right to facilitate the poor being milked.
I think, at some level the best with in both sides of politics would rather talk about solutions not flog each other for political advantage with a very soiled rag.

The proposed mandatory limits on poker machines will cost the clubs an estimated $3bn to upgrade / replace the machines, with the result that their revenue will fall by up to 40%. While this is not a tax in the strict definition used by the ATO, a secondary definition "Make heavy demands on (someone's powers or resources)" does apply. That it hits many of the Footy clubs would therefore make it a Footy tax, and as far as most of the clubs are concerned, it will be a huge drain on revenue.

While most people are sympathetic to need to address problem gambling, the cure is out of proportion to the disease. Government statistics show that 2.3% of the adult population are problem gamblers, compared to 13% who are considered heavy/ risky drinkers. If anyone tried to introduce registration and tracking card for someone to buy spirits, they would be lynched. While I very seldom gamble, if I had to register and get a card to use the pokies, I simply wouldn't.

The fall out that Labor is suffering is entirely self inflicted. No one believes that it is even a policy that they want to implement, or even believe in, just that they have to implement to stay in power.

SM, I wonder what the figure of 2.3 percent translates into when whole families are affected by the fallout from one person's pokie addiction. If one member of the family blows all the money, it affects more than one person. I think you have to take that into account.

Obviously, it's becoming a significant problem in society or it would not be worth addressing. And don't you think it's a somewhat dishonourable distinction that these clubs maintain themselves through such a device?

Poirot,

While I agree that the fall out extends beyond the person directly, the same applies to drinking as well, and to other activities such as sun bathing and the 1300 people that die every year from melanoma and the nearly 20 000 being treated. Do we ban alcohol, or some spirits? do we ban outdoor activities during the middle of the day? Inflicting controls on everyone to protect a small percentage of the population is the hallmark of the nanny state, eating away at individual freedoms to "protect" us from ourselves.

This pokie reform has serious question marks as to whether it will have the desired effect. Given the magnitude of cost and impact, before it is even considered, it should be trialled along with other measures such as limits on credit card, and cash machine withdrawals.

SM,

It's interesting from my point of view, in that my state doesn't allow revenue to be raised from pokies. So it's something that we don't have. It's interesting that because such reliance is made of this avenue in the other states, that it's removal is seen as an assault of some sort of freedom....just an observation.

Btw, my dad had a lot of bad habits, he drank and smoked and gambled. The drinking wasn't very pleasant on Saturday night, but the fallout from gambling lasted all week long and then was renewed in exactly the same fashion the following week. No money......

12% is the figure stated in federal Parliament , I except that.
My childhood seems a bit like yours Poirot.
I refuse to consider this Social reform issue a tool to bash Labor with.
Not approving of the two pushing the issue, maybe not sure federal Parliament is the place for it.
But NSW the first home of these machines is not only the home of clean tidy,acceptable venues to play these things.
Early opening pubs, dive best describes have them, people on drugs sit in front of them.
Desperation drives some boredom others crime plays a roll.
20% of first offending drug carriers.sellers say poker machine debt drove them to crime.
Politics? it baffles me, what is required from the party some follow?
Is there common ground.
Or just the need to beat the other side in to submission.
I request my party govern better, that it govern well,take on the hard issues, care for those who are not capable of doing it them selves.
I would happily throw every poker machine in the ocean, that is not linked to profits being returned to Social or sporting clubs.
Why let pubs get rich?
I think most conservatives share my view, are repelled by the defense of an industry run often by gangsters, for political gain?

2.3% is the figure from the Australian Bureau of statistics productivity report. Perhaps 12% is the number of people affected? Or the number that regularly gamble?

But from the sounds of it, you would simply like gambling banned.

Poirot, I am sorry about your dad, but would a pre commitment on some pokies stopped him from gambling?

Been 12 months but I had been a punter from my first pocket money day.
3 pence each way what ever Nevile Selwood rode in the first.
Then my cousin wed into the family of a jockey and I switched to his rides.
I understand gambling.
A bookmaker is no gambler he/she runs a book, based on mathematics knows they get a win no matter what the result.
All gambling is such.
Lost two thousand in a Casino won 26 thousand on a horse.
Alway winning some one Else's lost money.
Only book makers owners of venues who Gamble lost.
We are talking about poker machines.
not gambling in general, the figure is 12%
Not the sport of kings racing not any other form,we talk of a form of gambling that brings great pain to the very poorest.
And attempts to limit losses.
we discuss a lie
the tax on football lie, who of us will claim it is not a lie.
2013 this country changes government.
Not forever but for a time.
I see truly, that government in waiting,promising less tax much cost cutting even pensions.
If they consider opposition to things requiring our action, like this our country has dark days ahead.
Leave the clubs out, how did we let the very sleaziest of our pubs put in poker machines?
Western suburbs of Sydney a once drinking spot for me,now packed with poker machines and Social drop outs I was offered every thing from drugs to sex in the time it took to drink my last beer there, could have bought any stolen item I wanted if I would wait.
Should we protect that?

Belly,
I cannot remember when it was that pubs were able to install poker machines, maybe someone here will know. But it changed the whole atmosphere of pubs and I no longer frequent them and I doubt if I am the only one.

However, the problem for the government is do they acceed to Wilkies demand and if not will Wilkie drop his support as threatened. Another problem of this governments own doing and again we must question the judgement of Gillard in agreeing to this demand. Or will she do another turnabout and go back on her word.

Personally I have doubts about the effectiveness of a predetermined limit by a patron anyway. He will simply go to another venue or exit and return to get around the obstacle.

But the clubs and pubs are a powerfull industry and the government stands to lose a lot of votes if they acceed to Wilkies demand.

Like the illegal boat people and the failed Malaysian deal, this poker machine thing is Labors own problem and the Opposition can just sit back and watch.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/even-americans-shun-our-addictive-pokies-20110929-1kzfo.html
Banjo we are not far apart in most things.
Will you read this link with an open mind.
It in terms that can not be defended says 12 billion dollars is taken from these machines.
And 5 billion of that is from problem gamblers.
Do the sum tell me the percentages.
NOW I ask only this
Yes pubs are no longer worth the visit, mostly.
And again you from a different paddock than me, share my view Xenophon and Wilkie should not be in Parliament.
Mate use that mind.
Maybe not you but many, who hold fixed bigoted views,,, would embrace all the independents, love them all!
If it was the tiny man, focused on him,not his party not his country Abbott they sided with.
ARE WE unable to see
Can we be trusted to judge, this issue on truth?
These two men are not acting because of politics.
SURELY you see it is care that drives them?
Last I now offer my party's head on a stick, two brothers, both ex ministers in my state own a chain of these pubs.
In NSW.
NSW is home of sleazy pubs run by sleazy people and if conservatives can not think in terms of best interests of the country Abbott has inflicted wounds on a once far better party.
NSW ALP Governments let pubs own poker machines

One solution to the problem would be to re-introduce mechanical, single coin, 5 cent machines and make them the only ones that are legal.

The gamblers could play all day and all night and it would be physically impossible for them to loose what can now be lost in a few minutes.

Of course the 'Poker Machine Palaces' wouldn't be able to make such huge profits, but who cares apart from the club bludgers?

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/99d3b5096368c2e9ca2569de002842b7?OpenDocument

Please refer to the above last productivity report on gambling and its social effects. While it may be dated, the figures haven't changed much. The number of problem gamblers is 1/40 adults not 1/8. And while it is a significant problem, exaggerating the figures does the argument no good.

Given that the effects of the Footy tax will be so severe on clubs, it makes sense that a trial run is done in a couple of clubs and areas to determine whether it actually makes a difference, and what the consequences are. If it improves the community then it should be rolled out, if not it should be ditched.

This legislation is not based on any deep seated labor convictions or policies, only on a need to stay in power. To this end the voters will punish labor accordingly.

Hehe, runner said bondage.

Belly,
I agree that pokies should never have been allowed in pubs and that there are problem gamblers. Yes pokie addiction can be a problem for a minority of people. Do we need to address that, and how, is a seperate question to the governments delima.

The politics of the situation is whether the government has the guts to call Wilkies bluff or if he is indeed bluffing. Can they water down his demands to the extent that the wrath of the club/pub industry, and their patrons, will not be too severe?

The next months will be interesting

Banjo I address you, and the other bloke,with advice first to is mise the link in my post above puts some think like but not as harsh as that.
Let us three debate Australian Politics as it is today, we can include American too.
This thread is a great place to do it, the thread has been twisted like a kids lolly snake.
Politics taints every thing.
Can we agree Liberals will win the next election.
Can we too blame a hung Parliament in part for the lost nature of this country's politics
PS we left our bias at the door.
From the massive smack in the mouth of the 1975 rejection by the Australian people, duely earned, Labor came back stronger.
Is it not likely post Gillard it will again, in ma be two terms.
Given Abbott's lack of direction it may be he will have one term.
What ever.
Should he, as is the case in NSW be stalled at every possible chance.
Do we agree if Wilkie and Xenophon along with the independents supported Liberal government, they would be considered hero's?
Gentlemen I look for understanding from you both.
Consider this post this thread the one history judges us by.
It may take two posts.
Do you? consider Wilkie and Xenophon are just being products of unwed parents?
Is there room in your mind to see just a chance they unlike Labor Unlike Liberal can act without fear of power and donations on behalf of the victims?
More next post.

Now I am not trying to be rude or cruel.
But one blokes answers seem uninformed even the link provided proves my point not his.
POKER MACHINE nothing else, Australian productivity figures in my link say.
5 BILLION OF THE TWELVE BILLION lost on them comes from problem gamblers.
This subject need not have become a club to bash Labor.
It is far to important for that.
Our country, thanks to Tony Abbott and those who follow his do nothing policy is forever no longer the land of mate ship.
A tap has been turned on driven by lies and it can never be turned off.
Labor will grow strangely more from Abbott's efforts in the short term but it will not be hamstrung by greens ON its return.
Any one care to base a defense of poker machines on truth.
That other bloke? IF MATE you do think it is a tax on footy I true, say sorry, for years I took it I was debating some one with an IQ in double figures.

Again I offer this thread as a look in to the heart of Australian politics.
Seeing the links and statements.
But still seeing it referred to as a tax on football.
And the denigration of two I dislike, because they sided with Labor.
Men like Sir Robert Menzies Winston Churchill must be rolling in their graves.
Australia's two leaders as useless as the proverbial on a Bull, have dragged us in to this Childish junk in place of reviewing politics .

Belly,
It is most likely that labor will come back, post Gillard, and once again win government in their own right. However i cannot see it winning at the next election as I see it having problems of unpopular policy and compedence, which is more than just a leader. At this point it seems that Abbott will have a shot at being PM and how he goes at that only time will tell. Good for Labor if he makes a mess of it. If he has any sence at all he will try to stay well out of this issue, right now.

You obviously think the pokies addiction as a major problem and you may be right to push for changes that may reduce the problem. The pokies industry, and patrons, will not take kindly to having their activities curtailed. Calling Wilkies proposed self limits on spending a 'footy tax' by someone, is only a start of what is to come and no, I do not see it as being a new low.

The all time low was reached by both parties, with the persecution and jailing of Pauline Hanson. Our first political prisoner. Closely followed by the AGW advocates calling sceptics 'deniers' linking them to the holocoust. Labeling those opposed to MC as 'racist' is also about as low as one can get.

Banjo you understand I love the Australian Labor Party.
And that I fear it too.
I know my love is not for a perfect party, it is tainted.
I how ever remain proud, that I unlike a poster here, understand the blemishes of my side.
My actions are in defense of the ALP.
To stand on a hill and shout about my sides wrongs is,, to demand accountability.
This debate/thread fails both sides.
It should NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.
NSW has had criminal Premiers two, one from each side.
No informed supporter of both teams would say it is not true.
Just as DRUGS the very worst of them, can be and has been traced back to rich men of influence in this state.
Criminal activity in poker machines can be found ,we only have to look.
I tread on dangerous ground, truth can do great harm, but Labor, my team, sold NSW state Lottery's formed first for charitable reasons.
It was making money it was sold for less than its value.
With it went, wait for it, the millions of dollars in the unclaimed winners fund.
Rightfully owned by? general revenue, tax payers.
Gambling in NSW funds crime/makes criminals.
Show me one word from my opponent such as these about his side.
Look at the feebleness of football tax, the deceptiveness of the problem gamblers figures, put up instead of the true amount.
KNOW that is what is to be elected in 2013,not policy's.
My story here is about my side,the worst side then, but it could have been about conservatives.
We by taking sides let such take place.
We owe it to our selfs to be honest at the lower end poker machines are run by criminals for criminals and we sponsor hungry kids to miss use political point scoring, how sad are some?

http://www.smh.com.au/national/pokies-aussie-jackpot-20111001-1l2r4.html
The link contains facts and figures.
In truth, look closely, fearful ones, but not on their own evidence to support my view the limit is worth while.
IF the figures that do show my state is far the worst, showed how many are pubs?
Again I under line, this thread has taken on a tainting.
It has changed from a question about a socially disturbing problem.
To one about Australian Politics.
That too is tainted.
By a need to knife the other side, at all costs, not find the best answers.
Some, even our forums owner, may find my next statement offensive.
But that tainting has the finger prints of Tony Abbott all over it.

I think it has run its course.
But that it achieved something.
I stared with my total disapproval of the men behind the move.
Think I pointed out it could have been done/should have, long ago outside Parliament.
I highlighted my unhappiness with, well frankly DOGS in my party in NSW who made money from letting them run riot.
The usual got going, every problem in this country was bought about by the ALP.
And every thing we try to fix is wrong.
Figures put out time and again about just how bad it is got covered in mud.
AND despite about 20% of all venues being football clubs nothing can divert the intent to call it a tax on clubs.
Even good acts, needed acts,by an unpopular government get buried in humus.
2013 maybe sooner,we will see how those destroying our country's togetherness can take it.

It looks as though Abbott is out manoeuvring Juliar at every turn. Imagine working suburbs of western Sydney becoming liberal.