In my 22 years in Australia and some how direct link to this issue I find it very confusing look like every know about immigration policies and acctually when you dealt them personally, you will come to know that every one have thier own interpretation about immigration policies and that confusion push you in the hand of corruption or find wrong way to solve your immigration problem.

Welcome, and I hope you are treated with generosity and under standing here.
And also that you are who and what you say you are.
You did not give the problems you have had so it is hard to answer.
I ask that you understand fear exists on both sides of this debate, but understanding too.
The corrupt acts you speak of are always wrong.
Not quite sure what you have faced but hope you can get some help, be careful on line, do not leave a trail others can find you by , unmasking corruption demands personal safety.

"And also that you are who and what you say you are."

Dont worry belly, its not me...but I too welcome the question.....

Sir, your words of corruption are well understood and the unforgivable, for what human nature is, I say all countries must look at the scale of immigration. Having nice handed thoughts of refined humanity which all posses in some shape or form, given that the head count per situation, with all commonsensical numbers should dictate the volume of guesses and just not the need to act.

LEAP

Good Evening Mr Abdul. J.,

Welcome to the Forum.

I'm not sure what sort of problems you have
experienced but it is a concern that you
state that there are different interpretations
to the Immigration Act that push people towards
corruption. (that is - corrupt officials?).

Of course there will be unregistered Immigration
Agencies that will try to take advantage of
desperate people. However, Immigration advice and
Application Assistance Schemes are provided by the
Government - and the advice is free.

The following websites may be useful:

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/62assistance.htm

And:

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/63advice.htm

There is also professional Immigration Barristers and
Solicitors that charge for their services. One of the
most reputable is Sasha-Hendrick Beyderwellen:

http://www.beyderwellen.com/

I'm not sure if this information is of any use to you.
As I'm still not clear what your problems are.
Anyway, I hope it helps.

"to solve your immigration problem"? After 22 years?

Your statement is poorly expressed, so I am not sure what you mean, but I will go off in a tangent anyway. Instead of being happy for the blessings of a free society, you express only unhappiness because of "your" immigration problem. What is the problem? Is it what those horrible infidels do and say, or is it what they won't let you do?

Let me be frank - I suppose you are Muslim, and because you are Muslim I seriously doubt that you can or will accept the values that have traditionally defined Western and Australia values - personal liberty, equality, freedom of speech, choice, religion and speech, and particularly separation of religion from state. I don't see these in Islamic societies and I doubt that the average Muslim immigrant is any different from the average Muslim in Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan or elsewhere.

To many infidels, it seems that Muslims leave islamic societies because of the mess that islam has made, and then bring those same intolerant and destructive values with them to screw up non-Muslim societies. Thank you very much, just what we need.

Unlike other, kinder, sweeter people here at OLO, I have very little affection for Muslims and less for Islam (this may be related to the fact that some followers of Mohammad thought their god and prophet wanted them to kill me and my family for having an opinion they don't like). Yes, there are some good Muslims, but overall, collectively, they are a big minus in the balance sheet. Western societies will rue the day they let Muslims bring Allah and Mohammad into their societies.

But then again, because you are Muslim and therefore deserve special privileges, and because under official multicultural dogma you don't have to accept "Australian" values, maybe they will bend the rules for you.

I don't know what your problem is, but I suggest you use the words "racist" and "islamophobe" when interacting with officials. That usually works wonders.

Let me add a few thoughts, from this link:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/how-i-lost-faith-in-multiculturalism/story-fn59niix-1226031793805

Quote: "But the only people who don't think there is a problem with Islam are those who live on some other planet. The reputation of Islam in the West is not poor because of prejudiced Western Islamophobia, still less because Western governments conduct some kind of anti-Islamic propaganda. Instead, it is the behaviour of people claiming the justification of Islam for their actions that affects the reputation of Islam."

and

"These sorts of discussions (about Muslim immigration) take place all the time among senior officials, politicians and others. But I have never encountered a policy area in which private and public positions are so different. It is right to be sensitive and avoid needless offence. It is wrong to avoid reality altogether in such an important area of national policy. No one in Europe, 25 years ago, thought they would be in the mess they're in today... But the truth is not all immigrants are the same."

Abdul, it is a shame that I have to write hard words like these to you - a person I don't even know, but I think it is best to be honest and say what I think. I am perfectly willing to reconsider my position when Muslims start treating others as they want to be treated, end discrimination against non-Muslims in Islamic societies, and denounce the hate and violence in the Quran and hadith - particularly the violent, barbaric actions of Mohammad against peaceful neighbors.

You must understand that this infidel has read the hadith and therefore he finds it difficult to believe that Muslims - a people who say "praise be upon him" after the name of Mohammad and consider him a great moral example - will live in peace and harmony with non-Muslims. It is just a matter of time and numbers and then things will explode, causing pain and suffering to good people, and I will get no satisfaction for being right.

Dear Kactuz,

With all due respect - I have to point out that
from the sound of your two posts directed at
Mr Abdul. J., it worries me that you're presenting
an irrational, inflexible attitude towards an
entire category of people. You are "prejudging,"
people you don't even know. You are presenting very
negative feelings - antipathy, hostility, even fear.
Your statements are rooted in generalizations and
your statements ignore the differences among individuals.

You are prejudiced against Muslims and therefore you have
a negative attitude toward any individual Muslim, in the
belief that all Muslims share the same supposed traits.

Over the past decades, religious fervor has erupted in
the Islamic world in general and in the Middle East in
particular. This fervor has been inspired by
fundamentalism, a commitment to, and reliance on, the
traditional basics of religious doctrine.

To many Westerners, Islamic fundamentalism seems like an
almost scandalous return to medieval morality. It
conjures forth images of women behind veils, of adulterers
being stoned, of theives having their hands cut off, of
public floggings and executions, of martyrdom in holy wars,
and, in extreme cases, of political fanaticism exemplified
in aircraft hijackings and terrorist bombings.

This picture is rather distorted, for it is based on what
is newsworthy rather than what is typical. You need to do
much more research before you make any assumptions about
a whole group of people. You need to ask WHY has Islamic
fundamentalism intensified at all? Sociologists have
observed that fundamentalist revivals, in whatever religion,
take place in times when social changes have led to turmoil,
uncertainty, and the erosion of familiar values.

When people find themselves confused, threatened, or even
appalled at changing conditions, they may see a "return
to basics," as a solution.

Gday Kactuz hows it going?
I have a few thoughts,not QL that it was you.
First can we help on such little information? no not really.
But was it intended we would?
Who knows.
What if the intention was to flame us, get us off on a trail then tell the world we are racists ,even post links.
From another country, we do not yet know what one,we must consider this was posted in a second Language, so we make allowances.
In migration, the corruption very often is from the victims own country men, until we hear more I will think this.
But the umpire is out on the whole issue.
PS
I dislike Muslim separatism in my country ,and highlight we are the Mountain Muhammad moves.

Kactus,
Having read your two posts a couple of times I find them a fair sumatiom of our general experience of muslim immigrants.

However I was quite prepared to wait and see if Abdul J. offered any further information as to what his problems are or were, before commenting.

For example, I suspect that some immigration agents take many for a ride and charge massive fees for virtually nothing. If so that needs exposing.

Interesting article in the Aus yesterday about some that came, as children, on the 'Tampa' and ended up in NZ. They are now contributing to the NZ community, but NZ is now saddled with their families and I notice that none interviewed offered any reasons why boat people should be accepted ahead of those that have spent years in squalld camps.

Maybe as well as refusing permanent residence we should disallow the 'family reunion provissions' to those we accept as refugees. Thereby reducing the incentive for the illegals to try.

Banjo makes a good point:

<< Maybe as well as refusing permanent residence we should disallow the 'family reunion provissions' to those we accept as refugees. Thereby reducing the incentive for the illegals to try.>>

The main driving force behind the “refugee” / “asylum seeker” scam is the desire to get ones self and ones family into an affluent Western country--economic advancement.

And as the US is belatedly becoming aware of, many of those claiming to be family are not even related.

"The State Department said Wednesday that a U.S. family-reunification program for African refugees has been suspended after DNA testing of applicants revealed widespread fraud."
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/a-13-2008-08-20-voa59-66676452.html

One can only guess how much of this is getting past our own far less thorough "processes".

Hi
Belly,Leap,Lexi,Katkuz and Mojo thanks for your response as I am not very good in writing but still my discussion clearly saying that I am talking about immigration and most of you direct response to that as well,no wounder I ran away from third world country where corruption is high, If I will do same thing here than you can ask question why you left your country in first place and as I am against corruption and bieng a living wrong side of the road 22 years in Australia what I can see there are problems in immigration system but its not mean that all employees who are working for immigration are corrupt, I believe in Australian System and according to that I can say if not 100% atleast 99% Immigration employees are working honestly, If this is the case than why immigration suystem not working smoothly like all others department in Austrlia its mean there is some thing not wright and that some thing or hurdel or policy or money or power what ever it is, I will request to you please discuss, If you focus on news about immigration about boat people about overstayres about politition and about refugee advocate statement I am sure our discussion will make some sense and point to us into right direction and hopefully immigration system aswell thanks.
and for Mr.Kakuz pleae stuck with the topic some time in future I will give you chance to talk about Islam and Muslim aswell I also want to talk about it and this is my very first time that I am part of any forum and if you withdraw your comments would be nice thanks.
If there is any mistake please forgive me.
Abdul.J

Good to see you back Abdul stay tell your story.
You will remember in my first reply I said some subjects are emotional ones in this country.
Forgive us for that, we are no different than any other country.
Banjo I think the very reason Children arrive unattended is so parents get an open door entry.
In fact if allowed to work, the Malaysian solution will stop the boats.
On this matter Australia is best served if our major party's work together to bring what is mostly a scam, to and end .
We know migration is to continue and a hungry industry need will drive it.
Abdul may tell us of the corruption he speaks of.
Increasingly and sadly this country is learning bad lessons in this area.

Hello Abdul J.
Welcome to this often rigorous forum.
I am afraid that certain Political Leaders, in the past have caused a lot of misunderstanding about the Muslim faith, and those who practice it.
It would be more beneficial to all people if they asked about, or even researched the Muslim faith, so that they could find that the Koran teaches a very gentle religion, and respecting other Faiths around the World. Unfortunately some of the more radical Muslims have given most Muslims a bad name., and even Christians can be radical and corrupt Christianity. What really annoys me, is that if non-Muslim people would ask intelligent questions, or even research the Koran, instead of leaping to judge that which they know nothing about, and if people stopped the scare tactics about Muslims, they might find that everybody can live together, blending their cultures and faith in a compatible manner, both Muslims and Christians have to stop this "them and us' attitude. My message to all is this:, 'Rather than condemn that which you don't know, learn and understand instead.
NSB

welcome adbul
there seems some confusion as to what you are trying to say

so lets see if we can make it more clear

you clearly say..""you will come to know
that every one..[will]..have thier own interpretation
about immigration policies..and that confusion push[es]
you in[to]..the hand of corruption""

your refering[no doudt]..to the need to deal with criminals
[ie those labled as bad,,the 'people smugglers'']

ie those who take money from others
on often faulse promises

""or find [the]..wrong way
to solve your immigration problem.""

your honesty/sincerity..is in the statement
""In my 22 years in Australia
and some-how""[that confused others]

it might be more clear
by saying as i have a..""direct link to this issue""
[perhaps as a former user of their services?]

the key sems to be
""I find it very confusing""
to look and find info
""every"" [anyone who] know's about immigration policies

and when you dealt them personally,
as you may have..you put it as best as you are able to
in the word context as best as you can

others would like to hear..what you think
lexie has put up links..so if you cant understand what the links are saying..please feel free to ask for it to be made more clear..[others more clever than us will explain]

if you used a translation device to correct your words
trying to be more clear about the issue
its best to say this is what it said

it seems difficult sometimes to get across what we are trying to say
so its best to say how you feel[or what the problem is]

and never be afraid to ask others to explain
what do you mean by this or that

most importantly
dont give up trying
we are all doing the best we can

abdul..quote..""I believe in Australian System""

""and according to that
I can say if not 100% at least 99% Immigration employees
are working honestly,""

BUT..""If this is the case
then why is..the immigration system
not working smoothly..like all others department's in Australia""

""it mean's there is something not right
and that something or hurdel or policy or money or power
what ever it is,""..dosnt seem to be working properly?

""I will request to you please discuss,""this issue..

""If you focus on the news/media about immigration about boat people about overstayers""...or ""about politition""..party politics ""and about refugee advocate statement's""

""I am sure our discussion
will make some sense and point us into right direction
and hopefully fix..the immigration system as well""

you must realise
that this issue..has become a bit of an issue
this is about each..pushing our fears and predudices
onto what should be..a simple humanitarian issue..

Hi
Lexi and Belly thanks again for your concern about me I am sorry for that still I could not clear to myself.
If any of us can get these information from Parlimentr house HENSARD about in or arround 2001 in Libral government once immigartion issue was discussed that One business man from oversease got citizenship just for $10,000 and money deposited into libral party fund Government replied that we did not have any other way to fund over Party expenses.And its not illegale to get these information thanks.
It will give us some direction that why immigrtion system not as smooth as other departments are thanks.

Abdul I see you are here now by the users present list.
I welcome you and look forward to many conversations with you.
To also learn about your experiences here.
But while I greatly admire NSB I disagree with her.
Australians are not unlike any race of humans, we all fear difference, just bet if we set up in your country in our own community's we too would face some concerns.
But know Abdul we too except any one, from Any country, who wants to be one of us.
You will see racist posts, fear driven ones but true honest welcomes here.
It may well be so in the country of your birth.
It is true, no one should doubt, this is a Christian country, but too most are not true followers of any God.
Religion is the rock racism in born and bred on in my view, it may not be shared by all.
Those you talk to here may be the children and grand children of the post world war two migration that helped build this country.

you asked re the hansard debates
here is a link...[it has a search hansard button]
just enter the subject or date or minester

and a search should reveal the info..

http://www.openaustralia.org/?keyword=house%20hansard&creativeid=1117913217&gclid=CMGSzPi5rKcCFQXabgoda1BHAA

Dear Belly & Abdul J.
I agree with you Belly, that a lot of Australian people fear change, but how easy it is the change that fear into understanding, of course, there will always be radicals in all walks of life, most of us fear that which we don't understand, it is a natural instinct found in all human beings., it takes so little to find out about different things, and in the process we can all be enlightened. The main focus in life is to be law abiding, and if we can subscribe to that, and intolerance, I am sure that further down the track we can feel easier about things we have been 'taught' to fear by much scare mongering by the powerful few.
Thanks Belly for your kind comment at the beginning of your post,
Kind Regards to you and Abdul J.
Noisy Scrub Bird :)

Dear Abdul J.
I immigrated with my sister and parents from U.K. in 1959. We loved this country right from the beginning, and as a family we all worked and did well to establish a home and work in this great Country.
I have never forgotten how easy it was to fit in with Australian people, and I always welcome people coming from other places in the world, and hope that they enjoy Australia and do well at everything they try to do, that includes you Abdul. I wish you a happy life here.
Kind Regards,
Noisy Scrub Bird.

Good Afternoon Abdul. J.,

Dr Eva Sallis wrote an interesting article called,
"Australia's Dangerous Fantasy," which was first
published in "The New York Times, " December 2005,
updated Nov. 2006.

In it she points out that newcomers, especially if they
have come to Australia in linguistic or ethnically
distinct groups have always had a hardtime at first.
But past streams of migration gave Australia its
reputation as a country of diverse peoples that is all
the better for it.

Like America, Australia has new anti-terrorism legilsation,
first passed in 2002, then significantly strengthened in 2003.
It is legislation that inevitably validates the broader
community mistrust of Muslim Australians. Australians are
often fearful of terrorism and terrorists, and fearful of
the threat of invasion from the north. Yet the government
has done nothing substantive to allay these fears and to
increase knowledge and appreciation of Muslim Australians.

As Dr Sallis tell us -
In the last few years there has also been documented and
anecdotal evidence of a mass increase in harassment, vilification
and violence toward Australians of Arab appearance both in
the media and in popular imagination. There have been media
storms and unchecked racial religious vilification on
talkback radio.

All this has been unfortunate because prejudice creates what
it fears. Through prejudice young people's prospects are
curtailed. Young Muslims in Sydney struggle to get an
education and jobs and are increasingly ghettoized in
poorer suburbs. Their own families often live defensively
and are highly prejudiced about Australians.

The increasing hostility of the broader community reinforces
this inter-community racism, rather than challenging it.

As Dr Sallis sums up, a volatile part of our community is
living in deep alienation, unable to belong and another volatile
part is living back in the irretrievable past with a fantasy of an
all-white Australia. If we are to live at ease with ourselves,
we need more education, less fear mongering, and more
understanding amongst ourselves.

Dear Noisy,

Always a pleasure to read your posts.
Beautifully put and good advice. If we all
followed your advice - what a great world it
would be.

Well, here I go again! being me!
Saying it like I see it and knowing in doing so I upset some.
Migrants enriched my life, my youth my learning my eating habits.
1961 to 1963 16 to 18 I was the only Australian in crews from Italy and that part of Yugoslavia that once was Italy, or is it the other way around?
I took and refused payment a bloke from that second country from east hills Sydney hostel for migrants to work every day.
We could only say good, in his tongue, but swear well in both.
I never in my life found reason to fear any, 20 year old recently arrived Italians thought the peace sign was in praise of Mussolini ,but we got on, 20 year old Greeks told me our women are s98ts
Fact is, right or wrong, I am far from the only Australian feeling challenged by some Muslims, and by people looking like they dress for a sand storm not Australian streets.
Tell me I am wrong, my country men are wrong, call us bigots, but what other group is so plainly different and proud of it.
Abdul no wish to offend you, but would it be any different for 100 Aussies in shorts and thongs in your country's streets.
Being honest is not saying you are not welcome,not saying less than have a great life here and welcome, but forgive me and my country men and women for,,, being much like every race.

Belly,
Dear Belly, you are entitled to your opinion, thank goodness that we can do that in this country. I admire your forthrightness, being a Pisces, I take a different road to you, and that too is a good thing. Don't ever apologize for who you are, we, all of us,are universally entitled to our opinions, and more power to you for expressing them. My nature typifies softness, care and understanding, it can be a pain at times.
But I would rather enjoy the mixture of characters in this world than for all of us be 'clones'. Be proud of who you are, every one of us has our own little piece of magic, isn't that just great?.
Cheers my good man,
NSB

Dear Lexi,
Thank you for your lovely words about my post. 'Tis the nature of the beast that lies within me...it also can be a pain too, what a dreadful mix I am, not only a Pisces but I suffer from an overdose of empathy too. If I can think of a good side.....mmmmmmmmmm, ah yes, I have an off the wall sense of humour, which too, gets me in trouble some times.
But I am healthy, that is the main thing.
Enjoy your evening my friend,
NSB

Dear Lexi,
Thank you for your informative post regarding the research and findings regarding migrants since about 2002, it was a very interesting read.
Not only do I respect the trouble you go to regarding many of the topics discussed within this forum, but you light the path for understanding (and at times, differing opinions. Well done Lexi.)
NSB

Dear Belly,

As Noisy said -
of course you're entitled to your opinion and the
right to express it. And your fears and mistrust
are perfectly understandable. We fear what we don't
know or understand and as I stated in my previous
post the media, the politcians, the governments
have not helped matters regarding Muslims in Australia.

I firmly believe that our differences will not matter
in the long-term. We'll have a more vigorous,
exciting country, with a wide mix of people, and in the
end, through interaction and discussion, we'll sort
the problems out as we've always done.

It's important to remember Australia BEFORE the most
recent wave of migration. It was dull, self-satisfied,
and joylessly conformist. Of course, the option of
taking in people who appear different to ourselves
involves taking considerable risks - but almost every
human advance is based on experiment, innovation, and
adventure.

In the past, we've had to travel the globe to see
worlds that contrasted with our own. In a diverse
society such as ours today - such experiences are
within walking distance or over the back fence.
Good heavens, we can even risk inviting them in.

As for the way people choose to dress. As long as they
don't break any of our laws - what difference does it
make. Not all Muslims wear the traditional garbs. My
doctor is a Muslim - and she prefers comfortable western
dress. The same as not all Jews wear their traditional
dress, not all Greek women dress in black with the granny
black scarves. Not all Indian women wear the beautiful
saris and so on. As I said earlier - we can sort out
all our problems - with a bit of understanding.

Abdul J,
Trying to read the meaning of your posts is hard but I'll try.

You are saying that a businessman got Australian citizenship by paying $10,000 to the Liberal Party and that this was revealed in parliameent in about 2001 and is in Hansard.

Without more detail, like the actual date and who spoke, that would be difficult to find but, if correct, it certainly would be illegal. Hansard is a record of every word spoken in Parliament so I doubt if that was what was said because others and the media would make a big issue of it and some people would likely lose their jobs or be prosecuted if it were shown to be correct.

See if you can get some help with translation to be sure of what you are saying. Must have more accurate details before commenting further.

Is that your only complaint about our immigration programme?

Abdul,

<<One business man from oversease got citizenship just for $10,000 and money deposited into libral party fund Government >>

Sounds like an urban myth to me. The sort of half baked story certain groups tell themselves to justify their irrational belief systems. For reasons that Banjo outlined, I seriously doubt that either Liberal or Labor could get away with it.

And as urban (or, perhaps ghetto) myths go, it’s only bettered by this one:
<<It's important to remember Australia BEFORE the most
recent wave of migration. It was dull, self-satisfied,
and joylessly conformist.>>
ROFL

Let us tread a little lightly here my fellow OLO ers.
It is true, both a federal Labor and a Liberal have been caught doing this, not sure about convictions.
Think the ALP bloke may have done time for it.
We can not, any longer be morally superior to any country in the matter of bribes and corruption.
We are up to our eye brows in it.
I thank the Lady's for those kind words.
But warn ,honestly, while we have bigoted politicians, and people, they are driven, the politicians, by public opinion.
I do not will not ever share Lexis view dress is not a matter for concern, see any news broadcast, on TV OUR Women presenters MUST to be safe, wear scarfs in those country's.
Let us leave our views,every one of them out side the threads door.
Enter clear of all biases.
Now one rule, can we look at this problem/concern
As the western world moves to a softer view of the religions of our birth, some no longer believing at all, can we be expected to not fear a whole new one seemingly controlling one emerging.
How many here have not heard words like the dead meat quote? or that awful bloke Kaiser Trad.
Is the concern built only on the shoulders of WASP?
My welcome to Abdul is sincere my wish for his future too.
My fears are not a rare gem, one can be found in the mind of great numbers of my country men.
BOTH sides working together only can make it work.

Dear Belly,

You've got a good heart and it will take
both sides working together to sort things
out but we've done it in the past and we shall
continue to do so in the future with people
like you, Noisy, and others around to help
make it happen.

Dear Belly,
I support Lexis' heartfelt words to you Belly, you are a fine person indeed, and I truly admire your ability to 'call it as you see it', don't ever change your style, as it is part of your personal magic that all people have. I love you for it.
Promise me one thing, don't ever change my friend, you are a good bloke.
NSB

Dear Belly,
What a wonderful, straight forward post of yours. When the Leaders of our country cause mischief behind the scenes, just to scare and deceive the people who pay their wages, it sets a poor example to all.
Let us all hope that one day we are not the victims of a role reversal whereby it is we, who are pleading for asylum in a different country.
Perish the thought, God, I have just scared myself.
You would make a good Politician Belly, at least you have the intestinal fortitude to 'tell it as it is', ....don't you dare change my friend.
Have a good one,
NSB

Dear Lexi,
What a lovely post to Belly, you have a great way of dealing with people, don't ever change my friend, the World needs people like you et.al.
Have to fly off to the Optometrist and have my ailing eyes looked at.
Talk to you later,
Noisy

Lexi,
I disagree with your, and Dr Sallis's, reasoning for the obvious and growing alienation of muslims in Aus.

It is not that they are different and we fear them,or we are racist. It is simply because they will not bend and come part way to integrate as other migrants do. They hold our social standards and laws in contempt.

They have earned their poor reputation by their anti-social behaviour, and I can list many examples if you wish.

You also claim that Aus was a dull and boring place before the recent immigration and I expect you mean before multiculturalism was forced upon us. That is a silly statement and very wrong, it is also a rejection of Aus culture.

I take it that you view 60 pack rapes in Sydney, Leb gang bashings of Aussies, the attempted intimidation and takeover of Cronulla beach by Lebs, the abuse of female nurses, police, teachers, Ambos and shop assistants, arranged marriages and FGM carried out on little Aussie born girls as simply adding colour and livelyness to our community.

Sorry but that is too high a price to pay so you can walk a block or two to dine on ethnic food or experience some foreign culture.

There are large elements of muslims responsible for their current reputation and it is up to them to rectify that. Integration is a twoway street and we can only bend so far.

Dear Banjo,

My statement about Australia being a dull, self-satisfied
and joylessly confromist country was in reference to -
what Australia was in the 1950/60s. It wasn't meant as
a critcism - just simply stating historical
facts. Pick up any social history of Australia during
that period and read it for yourself (as I have done).
If you doubt it.

A reader wrote in one newspaper of that period:
In a - "letters to the Editor,"
(Taken from the book, "The Changing Australians:
A Social History," by Sue Fabian.

"The heritage of every Australian: the right to be
exactly the same as everybody else...It's not easy to
win this position in a community like Hurstfield.
From time to time, you feel like speaking out about
things, saying something that's different for a change,
until you realise - sensibly - that it's a lot
easier to make yourself like something you really
hate rather than say you hate it and have everybody
go crooked on you."

As for your antipathy towards Muslims. I fully understand
your feelings. They are based on your personal experiences.

However, mine are different from yours. Mine have all been
extremely positive. I take people as I find them. And I've
been privileged to meet a wide variety of people from
various cultures and learned so much from them. I don't
know if this has anything to do with my own European
(Baltic) ancestry and being able to speak several languages
or not. Probably coming from a different linguistic and
Ethnic group myself may influence me in this regard.
I'm not sure. Because look at Noisy Scrub Bird - who comes
from an English background - and yet she's one of the most
understanding posters on this Forum. Anyway, as I said -
you're of course entitled to your opinion. But then so am I
to mine.

Cheers.

cont'd ...

BTW: I've discovered the corruption to which Abdul. J.,
referred to earlier. It was the "Cash for Visas," scandal
that happened in 2001 in which Philip Ruddock was
involved. Google it for yourself. Apparently Dante Tan
had his visa cancelled in September 2001, and he made a
donation of $10,000 at Philip Ruddock's campaign launch.
One month after the donation of $10,000 the cancellation
of Mr Tan's visa was re-instated. Six months later, Mr Tan
was granted Australian Citizenship. At the time Mr Tan
was the Philippines most wanted fugitive.

There were even more scandals regarding Mr Ruddock's
granting of visas. As I said - simply Google the subject.
The websites are there.

Re: << My statement about Australia being a dull, self-satisfied and joylessly confromist country was in reference to -what Australia was in the 1950/60s. >>

It’s amazing that those who seem to exhibit a reverence for multiculturally endorsed cultures . Are so quick to devalue the OZ culture/experience.

Speaking with those who grew-up during the 1950/60s . It it’s apparent that while many found life tough at times, it was full diverse of interests and activities.

The fact that some saw such times as “dull” might well have more to do with the circles they moved in --or perhaps, the barrow they are constantly pushing

The richness that many see today has more to do with technology than any cultural mix/enrichment --- in fact, if the western world had not been so distracted –and hamstrung – by cultural games, technological progress might have made us all a lot healthier , happier and better informed.

Re << I've discovered the corruption to which Abdul. J.,referred to earlier. It was the "Cash for Visas," scandal that happened in 2001 in which Philip Ruddock…>>
BUT ,how many were convicted in a court of law (as opposed to convicted by rumour and innuendo) ?

“Australian Federal Police have cleared Attorney-General Philip Ruddock of allegations that he was influenced by donations when granting visas”
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/31/1080544556304.html

Dear SPQR,

A few historical facts for your information:

1) Until the early 1970s, assimilation and the
preservation of "White Australia," continued as the
Australian Government's official policies.

2) Migrants of every ethnic origin were expected to
assimilate promptly into a monocultural mould of
Australian identity, based on the Anglo-Saxon and
Celtic culture.

3) The ideal immigrant was the one who assimilated easily,
one who became more similar to the host population as a
result of social interaction and through the shedding
of all attributes of their culture.

In the meantime, the postwar diversification in Australian
immigrants' backgrounds continued and this was becoming
more and more evident in all walks of life. The new face
of Australia was in existence, long before the politicians
and civic leaders were prepared to admit it. The very
presence of foreign languages and foreign language press
in Australia mirrored the nation's growing cultural diversity.

Yet, antipathy was not lacking. Migrants were not always
treated as equals. However, several other factors combined to
erode, and finally eliminate in 1966, the White Australia and
Government-promoted assimilation policies. The contributing
factors included generally changing social attitudes, war
service, travel, foreign students in Australia, discrimination
in registering British subjects after 1948, and the confusion
in the 1950s over the control of non-Europeans' entry.

The revised immigration policy allowed new people to come
and settle in Australia: people from a wide range of nationalities,
races, religions, and cultures. By the end of the 1970s,
Australia had acquired an unmistakably new heterogeneous face.

The official Government policies reflected these social
developments. They moved from "assimilation," to
"integration," and then, to "multicultrualism." The
Galbally Report (1978) was the turning point, when it
urged the Australian Government "to encourage...the
retention of the cultural heritage of different ethnic
groups and promote intercultural understanding." Since
then, the Australian Government has
re-defined "multiculturalism"
several times. One simplified definition states,
"Multiculturalism...involves living together with an
awareness of cultural diversity."

And at present Australia is one of the most ethnically
diverse societies in the world.

cont'd ...

Dear SPQR,

There's more to the story regarding Mr Ruddock.

1)The Senate inquiry into Mr Ruddock's ministerial
indiscretions under the Immigration Act has
cleared him - Grudgingly - according to a Law
website had you bothered to check.

2) The Committee accused Mr Ruddock of obstruction
and called for urgent reforms.

3) The Committee demanded reform of the Ministerial
Discretion System. Lack of transparency and
accountability made it vulnerable to corruption,
the majority report said.

4) The big reason that the Committee had to clear
Mr Ruddock was because the Immigration Department
was being obstructive.

5) "The Committee was denied access to relevant Departmental
files and Officer's notes that could have cleared the
Attorney-General of any wrongdoing..."

6)"This was clearly done deliberately by the Government to
protect Mr Ruddock from further scrutiny."

This scandal was reported on Lateline, ABC, SBS,
Sydney Morning Herald, and other sources.
Do your research for the full story. There's
quite a bit of in-depth coverage. Finding a person
innocent does not make them so. It simply means
they were not allowed to have access to the evidence
in this particular case. The law is the law - that's
why justice wears a blindfold.

Lexi,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion as I am.

I grew up in that era, in a large country town, and we found it quite exciting. The war had been over for a long time and it was a prosperous time. There were plenty of local popular artists and groups puting out songs and regular dances were held. 10.00 o'clock closing came in. We thought it nothing to pool money for petrol and drive to the coast or Sydney to attend big shows. We had access to European and Chinese cusine. There was plenty happening on the refined cultural front as well. The Opera House was completed and I think Melbourne hosted the Olympics in 1956. Not to mention the Snowy Scheme and millions of migrants that integrated into our society. Like today we had footy, cricket, golf and surfing. Wool prices were booming and industry was doing well. People could actually buy a block of land, build a garage and live in that whilst building their house, and thousands did just that.

Hardly a dull era. That argument is a furphy, put out by multiculturalists who ignore the baggage that some cultures bring to our shores. Much to our detriment

I am certainly not happy with the drug culture that came with MC, nor the alien beliefs and practices of some cultures. In my view, we should stop the importation of people of some cultures that cannot or will not integrate and become part of our society. Some have been here 2-3 generations and still refer to themselves as Lebs.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/man-accused-of-sending-hate-mail-to-soldiers-families-appeals-20110823-1j8lj.html
I should back out of the thread while the kind words are being thrown at me.
Call the Gentleman the link is about what he is, holder of a minority view.
I should loudly, clearly, warn he is but one.
I should refrain from saying I fear not the races that are Muslim.
Not the religion .
I fear, in my understanding,sections of this religion, has followers anchored in the middle ages, a place man has left far behind.
Ah nasty Belly, you open wounds, let infection in,but no.
I actually invite racists not to reply, from both sides.
But if we ignore the very real damage a few can do,we blind our selves.
I think my country should reject people like this man, in my view he and those like him are unwanted.
And as ugly as the KKK.

Dear Banjo,

As I stated earlier - you can only understand someone's
experiences when you've actually walked in their shoes.
You're very lucky that your upbringing was such a positive
one. Many immigrants had different experiences. Including
those of my own family - but I won't go into them here.
They're too personal and not all of them positive.
Anyway, enough said - to each his own.

Cheers.

Dear Lexi,
I was just thinking back to the year that we arrived in this country,
and thinking that we, as Australians have come a long way since then.
On a culinary note, we get to enjoy the cuisine from all corners of the Earth, we get to see how other Cultures live, cook, show off their music and dancing, we have got it all in our backyard, aren't we very fortunate, no wonder Australia is called the Lucky Country.
Some years ago, I watched a Documentary, on children from ethnic background, and different religions. Two primary schools in NSW, one being Christian, the other being Muslim. Firstly the Teachers visited the 'other' school,asked their pupils' to choose a penfriend from these schools, and corresponded with each other for a few weeks. Then one week the Christian school visited its' counterpart, the Muslim school, the following the reverse applied. They all discovered, that they had so much in common, they sampled each others food, and, then they realised that even though they dressed differently, their Religions ran a similar path to each other.
Maybe some teachers are smarter than a lot of Australians....food for thought anyway.
Cheers my friend,
NSB

Lexi (continued)
I think that it would be really helpful if the Powers that Be, talked up the benefits of Multiculturalism, rather than the scare tactics.
I am not silly enough to think that radicals do not exist, but if more focus was directed at the non-radicals, people might just assimilate in peace, we can often see that the first and subsequent generations adopt a more western style in their dress etc., I guess that should provide a narrative for the doubters. I understand their fear, but perhaps they should realise that they have nothing to fear by living in Australia.
Enjoy your day,
NSB

Lady's lets not, in the name of supporting multi cultures turn my country's history in to a blighted waste land pre mass migration.
In 1915, this country's troops, for the second time in mass numbers served in the great war, unfortunately a European Royal family feud.
But our culture and traditions existed then.
I like to think my frank nature, belief in say it as I think is and always has been part of that bush bred Aussie culture.
Abdul, know this, I want your life, your children's life ,in this country to be a good one.
But I will not roll up in a corner and pretend my concerns, the concerns of my country men/and Women come from poor understanding/education.
We value the sacrifices of our service men and Women, not only those killed but those who suffer endlessly because of the service they do our county.
I know Abdul, for every Muslim in my country telling my dead country mens family's they are murderers, hundreds in the country's they serve in are grateful.
A young beautiful loyal Australian Woman Born in Malaysia, served this country in the Iraq war.
She can be proud of herself, happy to know she served too her fellow Muslims.
Lets not be Blind, if I in any, Muslim country, ever.
Sent such letters.
Can we see? it takes two, it take effort, on both sides.
This issue is not to be fixed by blindness cuddles and love,, on one side.

abdul
this topic has reference to immigration visa issue
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4658&page=0

Dear Belly,

Yes, it does indeed take two, no one is
suggesting otherwise. However when there is
increasing hostility in the broader community
and families are forced to live defensively
prejudice creates what it fears. There are many
Muslims who used to feel that they were Australians,
but now cannot identify themselves in all the
negative space being created for them in our
community.
It's not about "love" only on one side - it's
about more education, less fear mongering and
not least, greater honesty about the culture
of prejudice that is so damaging to us all.

Hi lexi and bely thanks for you link about hansard look like it is not covering between 1996 to 2006 .
But any way as we know that mostly australian are working honestly and current prosperouse austrlia is proof of thier honesty and I hope people arround the world learn from it and it would be goog for them.

Thanks Abdul, and Lexi, my concern about the letter writers remains, my understanding of what would happen to me,in their country is firm.
The events took place and like minority actions on both sides bring great harm.
Understanding must be two way.
In my community if any one wrote such letters and I found out I would make it clear how I felt it was a form of insulting the dead in a town/country that had given them refuge.
Walls are built on such matters but never fall by being painted a different color.

Dear Belly,

Personally I don't blame the actions of a few
on the majority. If I'd have allowed what a
few nutters wrote about me, or said, or
tried to demean me in any way, get to me -
I would have ended up in a frightful mess.
Instead - I don't allow their rantings or
ravings to become my problem. Sure, everyone
reacts when the right buttons are pushed -
however, you learn from the experience - especially
what not to do the next time. (React - which is
what they want).

Not every Muslim is a trouble-maker or a fundamentalist.
The same goes for other people and groups. We can't
make generalisations about people - because that doesn't
allow for individual differences.
However, all of us who live in this country have to
obey the laws of this country. Frankly, I think that
you have very little to fear.

Dear Abdul.J.,

Thank You for bringing this topic of Immigration
for discussion. It has been interesting.
However for me now, this discussion has run its
course. I shall hopefully see you on other
discussion topics.

Take care.

Until the next time.

Abdul.J.,
Contrary to what you say, Hansard covers everything that is said in our houses of Parliament,and indeed all committees and inquiries.
In this case it appears that certain allegations of impropriety were made relating to a Minister and dispite an inquiry and a police investigation no wrong doing could be found. In our system it is one thing to make allegations but quite another to prove such.

NSB,
You said "I think that it would be really helpful if the Powers that Be, talked up the benefits of Multiculturalism, rather than the scare tactics".

Could you outline just what the advantages of MC are? Other than dining on various foreign foods or watching kids dancing, dragon parades or beer festivals.

Do you think we should continue to allow migration of those groups that hold our society and laws in contempt?

I understand that there are more Buddahists in Aus than Muslims yet they do not go around claiming offence at our nativity displays or being offended by lingerey window displays, nor demand special only times at public pools or request poligamy or introduction of Sharia Law.

Buddahists are rightly respected, but muslims have themselves earned their poor reputation by their conduct.

Dear Banjo,

If you were to qualify your statements with the
word - "some Muslims," it might make you sound
more reasonable and unbiased. But without
that prefix - you appear to be arguing at an
emotional level rather than a mature, intelligent
one. Sound reasoning will conquer sweeping
generalisations every time in a discussion. Not
all Muslims, same as not all Christians, Jews,
and others should all be lumped together. You have
to allow for individual differences. Yet you keep
on denigrating an entire group of people. Not nice.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/29/opinion/the-nations-cruelest-immigration-law.html?_r=1&hp
Any one who took part in this thread, or any on related subjects would do well to read the link.
My thoughts are I know, not always shared .
But mild in relation to this.
Bigotry.
Lead ,as the killing ,lynching, of American Negro's was, by SOME Church men.
Australia hopefully, will not get this bad.

Hi belly you right world should be death free atleast from killig but unfortunatly too many people are dying and people are responsible of thier death I really don,t know what we needed to stop it ,blieve, education,commonsense,food,discipline or something we don't learn yet.