The question that is most in my mind when reading about the UK riots is how well the explanations being advanced stand-up, and whether Australia has built a society that inoculates us against similar occurrences.

Living in Brisbane I feel a world away from what is happening in London and elsewhere, but a quick scan of Google says that Australia has had a number of riots in recent times. I could only think of the Cronulla riot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots, but Wikipedia reminded me that there had been riots at Macquarie Fields http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Macquarie_Fields_riots, Palm Island http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Palm_Island_death_in_custody and Redfern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Redfern_riots.

There is definitely a racial element in some of them, but not others, and the levels of poverty vary to a certain extent as well.

None of these riots was as severe as the British ones, but what is the explanation for that? Are social differences smaller here, or is it just that the UK is a much larger country with larger concentrations of deprivation?

Hi Graham,

The Sydney Morning Herald had an interesting article
by UK columnist, Zoe Williams. She claims that the
riots are something we've never seen before. These
are "shopping riots." They're characterized by their
consumer choices. Crowds moving into shopping centres
to shop. The type of goods being looted Williams
points out are relevant. If they were going for bare
necessities (stealing bread, milk et cetera) one might
be inclined toward sympathy but when you're nicking
trainers, laptops, flat-screen TVs. This is pure
criminality untainted by a higher purpose. Because as
Williams says - we all know "it's illegal to smash shop
windows and steal things."

What's also interesting is that although some in the crowd
are covering their faces many are not. They give the impression
that people just don't believe they'll go to prison anymore
at least not for something as petty as trainers. Williams
points to the leniency of the court system in the UK and also
claims that "This is what happens when people don't have
anaything; when they have their noses constantly rubbed in
stuff they can't afford, and they have no reason ever to
believe they will be able to afford it."

Could this happen in Australia?
Absolutely. If we allow the gap between the rich and the poor
to widen greatly. If we have drastic cut-backs
in infrastructure and social services,
such as education, health, decent housing, et cetera.
If unemployment becomes severe. Problems can occur
in any society where conditions become rife for unrest as history
has shown us in the past.

They can, they will, they have.
While shopping is a fact, being poor and no job prospects too.
We must confront the fact difference drives these things.
Cronulla was a small look in to our future.
Indian Vs Muslim riots/brawls in western Sydney too.
Simplistic it is the other sides fault views are no answer.
Governments getting us together on the sporting Field is a good idea.
But then third generation Australians still go to war there too,as in tennis and Soccer.

"None of these riots was as severe as the British ones, but what is the explanation for that? Are social differences smaller here, or is it just that the UK is a much larger country with larger concentrations of deprivation?"

Graham
England has always been characterised by a stronger class sytsem than here. I schooled with a majority of working class English students and even as a teenager I noted the working classes had their rules about 'knowing one's place' or 'not getting above yourself'. It is also a very Irish mentality (my mother's ancestors).

My feelings are similar to Lexi's comments above, and while I don't know if the disparity here is any wider than in the UK, Australians are fairly egalitarian and have a strong sense of justice. England is also impacted far greater in the economic downturn than we in Australia.

The situation might change here if the calls to reduce minimum wages is taken seriously which will only widen the gap further, especially if austerity measures are perceived as not being shared across the broader population.

There is an interesting backlash to the riots, many people across England calling for calm and getting together to clean up the mess. It is hard to find a positive side but maybe the riots will be cathartic and an opportunity for people to come together with greater tolerance and understanding. That sounds a bit twee but it seems to be happening across those areas in England most affected by the riots. Maybe in adversity comes solidarity.

Another fact that has just been discussed on the news
is that the majority of the looters are juveniles
and under the English-Law System cannot be punished.

According to the UK media -
It appears that the adults have taken advantage of
this situation and sent in juveniles to do the looting.

If it can happen in the UK, it can happen here.

Of course it could happen here.

Especially if we pander to the false sense of self-entitlement which these violent rioters display in their lawlessness and disrespect of other peoples property.

And don't think for one minute it is caused by some economic divide between rich and poor... that is just psycho-babble and socialist propaganda and an excuse for more economic leveling like the Carbon Tax - where

indolence and violence = welfare entitlement

Col Rouge,

The UK Guardian newspaper disagrees with your take
on things (as does history). However your attitude
is understandable.

This view is fervently held, even by many who do not
know poor people,
have never tried to raise a family
on welfare payments, and have not the vaguest
idea what poverty is
really like. Opinion polls repeatedly show large sections of
the population favoring cuts in welfare spending or
favoring plans to "make welfare recipients go to work."

These attitudes bear little relationship to reality.
Many of the welfare recipients are children,
aged people, or disabled; many are mothers with
young children, and only a small amount are able-bodied men,
most of them unskilled workers in areas of high unemployment.

Other myths abound - that welfare is a terrible burden on
the taxpayer (welfare represents something like 2 percent
of the federal budget).

These myths are part of the ideology
that legitimates stratification.
It holds that everyone has the same chance to get ahead,
and that inequality provides rewards for personal effort.
If those who get ahead can claim credit for their success,
then those who fall behind must, logically, be blamed
for their failures. The poor are therefore supposed
to need incentives to work, rather than help at the
expense of the taxpayer.

There are few complaints, however, about how the government
pays out far more in "handouts" to the nonpoor than to the
poor. This fact generally escapes attention because
these benefits take the indirect form of hidden
subsidies or tax deductions rather than the direct form of
cash payments.

We should be wary of explanations of poverty that try to
"blame the victim."
Explanations that focus on the supposed faults of the
poor rather than on social forces that create poverty.
This doesn't mean of course, that poverty is "all society's
fault."

Some people undoubtedly contribute to their
deprived circumstances. But poverty, like wealth or indeed
any other social characteristic, is the outcome of a
complex inter-action between individual human beings
and the social invironment in which they find themselves.

Happen here?

Not a chance.

Our youth is collectively one of the most positively advantaged, cossetted, protected, educated, privileged and affluent social grouping, anywhere.

Riot? They'd rather go surfing.

What's more, they can.

if life has taught me one thing
its never say never

so of course it could happen here
just make the kids voiceless

just keep calling them names
they will become what we fear them to become

the overeaction of govt..will ensure they get angry sometime
we hear that many pleading 'guilty'...didnt even do anything
but there they are..their photo in the news paper

tell me
did those young guns gambling away our super
AND loosing a big chunk of it
[did they get the same 'treatment']

of course not
we look at the spoiled brats[in our sports]..
and say arnt they too clever..so other kids think thats how life is

we put riots on the simpsons
and that standard is what they follow

the wealthy prats get away with murder
the poor..ned to plead guilt where no guilt is
cause they got a duty soliciter telling them i will get you out of this[then dont]..

there is plenty of reasons for kids to get angry
life can be a riot..;but in reality its become a joke

Lexi "The UK Guardian newspaper disagrees with your take
on things (as does history). However your attitude
is understandable."

I stopped reading when you referred to the Grauniad

anyone who relies on the newspaper of choice for pompous, leftard academics is obviously drinking from a poison well..

anyway, I thought you were ignoring me,.. according to another post you wrote....

or is your short term memory slipping?

and as for my attitude.... that attitude of self reliance is what is needed, not the fluff and flatulence of pandering socialism

Col Rouge,

Flatulence is one subject you'd be more
familiar with - I grant you that.

And no, there's nothing wrong with my
memory. It's my professional ethos.
Part of my training actually - to correct
any misinformation that's being bandied
about

Lexi Friend, the gentle man is no gentle man,
Better not to respond.
You know those views/barbs are of no use.
50 years ago I lived in Sydney away from my family a country kid.
I could not believe the street wars between Australian Aboriginals and young migrants, from a European back ground, southern Italy.
I saw blood on the pavement and a lot of deliberately planned fights.
I think because of the need to be different and proud of it.
No single answers and no single problem.
But we should understand we face the same if we do not think out side the box.

Hi Lexi,
Your last post was well written and justified.
Hi Belly,
I worked in Sydney (in the City), for many years, but I cannot ever say that I saw any riots between Aboriginals and Europeans, let alone blood on the pavements.
We see a lot of fighting in some Country areas of W.A., usually between warring Aboriginals, from differing 'mobs', the Aboriginals aren't warring because they are broke and destitute, they get excellent welfare to get all the things that they need.....what causes any fights between them is an excess of alcohol, to the point where some pubs in far north W.A. are banned from selling alcohol to Aboriginals.
Cheers both Lexi & Belly
NSB

You bet I could happen here.

These young ones have no concept of going without or, doing it tough.

Unemployment is on the rise, IR laws and red tape are crippling many small businesses and this is simply th beginning.

Watch this space.

The culture of youth violence in the UK is not exactly new. The behaviour of their soccer crowds was legendary.

I heard ages ago that the amount the UK spends of sports is abysmal. That is one of the reason's that are so appalling at it, getting themselves whipped by countries a fraction of their size - likes of us and New Zealand,

Spending on sports, surf lifesavers and the like benefits the youth mostly. Adults are too caught up in work and family to get much benefit out it. So spending on sporting facilities, and the consequence use of mum's taxi to keep them all in use is actually an investment in keeping our youth occupied, stimulated, and socialised. I often wondered if the UK's lack of spending in this area was an underlying cause of the violence.

Lexi... professional ethos.... I did not know Hungry Jack hamburger flippers had those..

and I like the "correct any misinformation ".... I figure you are neck deep in misinformation on your side of politics....

CAGW, reading the Grauniad ...

I suppose Julia declaring there would be no Carbon tax by her government was a tastey bit of "Misinformation" too... however, I dont see much correction of it by you

rstuart.. Agree.. football violence goes back to the 1970s at least.

Before that gang violence was about, if not rife... the difference between then and now

Mobile Phones and interent.... especially when back in the 1970s most of the public phones were vandalised by the sort of filth who would be a rioter today

and of course, back then the cops would go in battons drawn ready to crack a skull or two

*welfare represents something like 2 percent
of the federal budget).*

Not so, Lexi. Last time I checked welfare costs were around the
110 billion $ mark, about the same amount as tax collections from
individuals. So its by far the largest expenense in the federal
budget.

*Our youth is collectively one of the most positively advantaged, cossetted, protected, educated, privileged and affluent social grouping, anywhere*

Pericles, quite correct. But never forget, life is relative.
I know of kids accusing their parents of child abuse, because they
would not buy them a mobile phone.

Just look at the posts on OLO, about how tough things are in
Australia. Most have clearly never travelled.

Would some of our spoiled brats loot electrical and similar stores
if they thought they could get away with it? Sure some would

Look! you parents are the bosses, and if the little in-grates don't follow the house-hold rules, at 16....give them the arse. Done it to one child myself, and now.....you couldn't of seen a better mother in Australia.

Whats the old saying........mate! you either sink or swim! Think your big enough for attitude, well your big enough to stand on your own two feet......and some do just that, but some come running back with all the sorry's and reform with the most humblest of I wasn't ready.
But then and now, it was the best thing I ever did.

Big girls don't cry......yes they do.

Plus whats been seen on TV etc......shows, well I know where to blame....Home and away ring a bell, TV adds, and general sex only females.....is your only choice. In a mans world.....the thicker you are, the easier the male gets his way. Seen TV or MTV...married is just another way of saying.....well...you figure it out.

LEA

Col Rouge,

Professional ethos is part and parcel of
most professions at least here in Australia.
As for hamburger flippers (?) I'm not
familiar with them. Our family's diet does
not include hamburgers. Perhaps your wife
could enlighten you on that subject.

Yabby - I agree with everything you said in your last post.

some wonder why Asian children do so well at school.... because the idea of "learning" and "self-improvement" is still valued in Asian cultures - it is how you drag yourself out of the rice paddy

QL "Look! you parents are the bosses,"

Yes, QL, that is the theory

I remember when one of my teenage daughters told me she could phone an abuse line if I ever dared smack or punish her

I simply said... "I will call the number for you, immediately after I have whacked you "

I totally agree, parents should be the bosses....

but we need a social environment where parents are respected and supported for disciplining their wayward offspring...

not a society where a bunch of do-gooder psychologists and "experts" on everything, regulate that self indulgent waywardness and destruction (again often self-destruction) is a "childs right" to free expression and parents are not allowed to smack or otherwise punish their "boundary-free", self entitlement absorbed brats.

However, parents know they will have the last laugh

the notion that

"My grand children will be my revenge on my children"

will always hold very, very true.

My wife has probably employed some hamburger flippers in the past, her family are used to having servants - her mother has 4

we don't eat hamburgers either but it is always good to be familiar with how the other half exist

Of course, my wife is a very knowledgable lady generally, Lexi.

She could teach you many things, from human body dissection on a pathologists slab to acupuncture, nutrition (yes no hamburgers), even non-surgical facelift for those sagging jowls so you can try to fight back the years

but what would probably suit you the most .... her training schools have trained hundreds of nail technicians ... you could buff and chat all day with the other "girls" and have exciting discussions on the relative merits of different nail colours, whilst absorbing all those fumes.

or she has some really, really, short courses, one in applying artificial eyelashes-

it only take a couple of hours, so would not stretch or stress your attention span too much.

We are soon to offer them as distant learning packages across the internet send me your email and I will send you a price list

Col....this was my actions............talk and talk until talking is pointless. Pack her bags and take her to the BUS station....give her a hand-full of cash, then walk away.

This is the uncontrollable brat that will not listen to normality, you know the hard-core "know it all types" you know saying, its only when you hit rock bottom....that they realize the true facts of life.

I was just that sort of child......but once reality set in........I was back at home and appreciated what my M&D to the fullest, and never stepped out of line again.

Sometimes its hard being young.

But nothing beats the love of home.....and its people.xoxoxox

LEAP

Lexi, not worth the effort!
Latest news is promising, the Prime Minister has said rioters will be kicked out of council homes, very good.
Lets drop the idea poverty drove them.
Some,see this mornings news own and live in very middle class homes.
We are lucky, as of yet we have not got the problems, but it comes.
For 15 years I have read story's of 8 year olds with guns in Brittan,we know of children shot dead.
We, the middle of society, must not let the margins tell us kids do not need education discipline and boarders.
They do rich or poor some have no idea of respect.
Mainstream has every right indeed duty to protect its self.

Interesting posts from a couple. Could it happen here? In very localised communities, possibly. Could it become as big as the UK? Certainly not in Brisbane. One major problem is simply the lack of public transport and the lack of suitable targets for rage close to home. If a group of kids in Woodridge or Marsden decide to go on a rampage, they'll first have to either steal a car or bum a lift. then they've got to find somewhere convenient to the riot to park or they've got to walk for miles, only to find that all the shops have heavy steel mesh over the windows (because they're in Woodridge). It's simply not going to fly.

Furthermore, there is far too much racial segregation among Australia's poverty-classes. A group of Islanders would never cooperate with a group of Lebboes, let alone a group of white-trash bogans, while the bogans wouldn't be seen dead anywhere near Aboes or African monkeymen (a term heard recently whilst waiting in a queue at the supermarket in Acacia Ridge). Any such riot would degenerate rapidly into a series of inter-racial spats.

Additionally, our poverty classes have already got all the consumer goods they could want thanks to Kev's handouts and the on-going massive redistribution of wealth that is a feature of Australian economic life.

In short, nope, not a chance, except in the most concentrated parts of Melbourne or Sydney, where population density and decent public transport might make it feasible.

It's important to remember when watching the coverage that this is actually confined to small parts of the cities. Just as in Brisbane's flood, most of the city is unaffected and life goes on as normal. The riots can only occur in the presence of that functioning infrastructure to get people to and from.

We are quick to comment on the uprisings in such countries as Somalia, Egypt, Libya, Syria, Tunisia, Iran, Sudan and Emirates. We hear the rulers refer to their protesters as criminal elements, insurgents, armed gangs, religious zealots, left/right extremists and anarchists. This nicely puts a tag on the “symptoms”.

We hear very little about the fact that protesters are typically poor, short of food, few prospects, no jobs, little education, oppressed, low healthcare, powerless, state dependent, disenfranchised and generally denied social equity and justice, the “causes”.

Their rulers are a mix of dictatorships of military, clerical and benign (royal and ruling family) elites. Their subjects see little difference between any of these ruling classes. They see only their own misery whilst observing their ruling classes gaining wealth and privilege at their expense.

It is clear in the UK that “some” in society feel exactly the same as those driving the “Arab Spring” and perhaps rightly so. They suffer the same symptoms and more concerning still, the government pulls a convenient label off the shelf for the symptoms, criminals and thieves. True however, this is precisely how dictatorships deal with discontent, and protest caused by the lack for some, of social equity and justice. So what is the difference?

Their might also be similar discontent brewing amongst those in UK society who are educated, work hard, save for retirement, generate national wealth and typically don’t protest. These sections of the electorates are however, feeling disenfranchised, powerless, hit hard financially and ignored. They too feel at this level, that they are victims of lack of equity and justice. The reasons for this may be numerous however, a catalyst for discontent is the unjustified pain and fabricated gains imposed by the raft of carbon dioxide mitigation legislation being enforced by politicians who refuse to either answer or listen, whilst at the same time they very publicly feather their family interests from the same policies that disadvantage their electorates. Again, what is the difference?

Cont’d

Cont’d

It is now public knowledge in the UK that Miriam Gonzalez (wife of Clegg) is CEO of Acciona, Spain’s largest wind farm and solar energy consortium. Cameron’s wife is a former Greenpeace activist whose father, Sir Reginald Sheffield is a recipient of state largesse provided by public investment and energy tariffs paid by the public. The ruling elites have their snouts in the trough. So what is the difference between the ruling elites in power in Arab dictatorships and the UK and for that matter, the rest of the EU?

There are some very serious challenges to renewables in the UK where the government is being forced into inquiries against wind farm development applications by Peel Energy. These include Scotland, Wales and in particular Frodsham Marches in Cheshire.

Is the UK government now also courting increasing protest activity from sections of the electorate that are eminently capable of bringing down the Sword of Damocles upon the UK’s “ruling elites” and their careers?

In Australia we consistently allow our attention to be drawn by our media, to the “symptoms” which allows that same media to conveniently label such symptoms. What we rarely get is any meaningful analysis of the “causes” which are a stunning match to the fundamentals of the Arab Spring.

I suspect very few Australians have any idea of the lurch to progressive politics in the EU in general and the UK in particular during the last fifteen years.

So could this happen in Australia? With the greatest respect Graham, it already is and for the very same reasons. Our government is lurching to the left and ignoring public sentiment.

spin doc quote..""We are quick to comment on the uprisings in such countries as Somalia, Egypt, Libya, Syria, Tunisia, Iran, Sudan and Emirates.""

but have we 'gone so far' as to do
the planning for then to crush out diss-cent?

ie showing them how to shut up complainers
will they dare to ever complain
if we tear gas or fire rubber coated munitions into these 'children'

yes we are experts at making freedom LOOK real
but with the media prats..doing the masters bidding
and the two party set up voting 'system'...we will lead the way to bonded serfdom for the deliberatly dumbed down[ignorant]

yes...uk lead the way
to global oppression...for those still with a colonisation adgenda

for those who DEMAND
instant obediance..from their shattle

well done mr camera on

""We hear the rulers refer to their protesters as criminal elements, insurgents,..armed gangs,..religious zealots,..left/right extremists and anarchists...This nicely puts a tag on the “symptoms”.""

yep first vilinise them
them send in the cannons
then send in brute force
[untying the hands of the police FORCE*]
then quasi kangeroo courts...then accept guilty pleas
then fine or jail them...DO AS YOU WISH
any means is justified

next shut down the net
censor you tube

yes well done son..[not you spinner's]
the demons in hell will lord your deeds
mr do it with the cameras on..then use selective footage
to cast slurs..on those who dare say ENOUGH..who are fed up with the double standards

juliar guilelard
would be great at this type of leadershipt

idi amin started the same way
so you leaders are in good company
well on the way to dicktraitershipt

empoversish and silence your peons
how dare they

QA in a previous relationship I watched as a lady did the “Pack the bags thing” with her son…

His attitude, between tokes of whacky-tobacky was she had given birth to him – therefore – she was responsible for him for the rest of his life.

He was sent packing but used to harass her by mobile phone etc

It was a very sad circumstance especially as she had already lost his brother, murdered by a (marijuana induce) schizophrenic

I was fortunate, with my girls it never got to that

But I totally agree with you…. Those with a pretense to endless entitlement need the shock of falling off their own two feet to understand how lucky they are

Antiseptic…. Interesting take of mass transit…. And I have always objected to subsidizing it.

The UK problem is also that you can buy a second hand car for next to nix – if not steal one and immediately go where the action is (everywhere is so close) ….

Assuming the driver attended school long enough to be able to read the street signs….

Or maybe they just drive toward the orange glow in the sky

OF course, in the "good old days" the UK used to ship them off shore to Australia..... and the real bad ones, Australia used to ship to Norfolk island..... not that I would suggest doing the same today.... we don't want them for heaven sake and anyway, the Middle East and the horn of Africa thinks is has the exclusive Australian supply franchise

Welfare expenditures remain highly conroversial. In a typical
argument some people actually blame a great deal of poverty on
welfare, which, they claim becomes a way of life for the poor until
they lose any incentive to escape their plight. There may well be
some truth to this view, but welfare can hardly explain most poverty.
After all, there was far more poverty in the days when there was no welfare; many impoverished people hold full-time jobs; and most welfare recipients are too young, old, sick to work anyway.
Also, the elimination of welfare payments would in effect punish large numbers of poor children who are in no way responsible for their
parents' situation.

As I wrote earlier we should be wary against explanations of poverty that try to "blame the victim." This attitude focuses on the
supposed faults of the poor rather than on the social forces that
create poverty. Again as I wrote earlier - this does not mean, of course, that poverty is "all society's fault." Some poor people
undoubtedly contribute to their deprived circumstances. But poverty
like wealth or indeed any other social characteristic, is the outcome of a complex interaction between individual human beings and the
social environment in which they find themselves.

Over the generations, the human population has constructed castes and classes in society after society. Like other stratification systems, social class in the UK arises out of specific historical and social conditions. Since social stratification is socially constructed it must, in principle, be socially modifiable as well - provided only
that people are conscious of their own ability to change what they
have created. Whether they preserve, modify, or change the system is
ultimately up to the people themselves. And it seems that over the
past 26 years - they tried to do just that in Tottenham. So what
happened to cause this recent upheaval - well, as journalists keep
telling us - opportunists are taking advantage of the situation.

Col Rouge,

I've just come across your post directed at me.

1) Glad to read that your wife can actually
answer your question regarding hamburger
flippers and professional ethos. I suspected
she'd be familiar with the issue.

2) Having servants in impoverished countries
is quite common. I'm sure that your wife's
family knows and understands how the other
half lives."

3) Thanks for the offer of your wife's
beauty therapy techniques. Much as I'd like
to lend her my patronage - I have to
decline as I prefer the well known names in that
industry (same as I prefer designer labels in
clothes). I prefer therapists whose qualifications
are recognised internationally. Not one's who work
out of their homes.

Again - thanks for your concern.

Cheers.

Technically we had identical riots in Redfern and in Macquarie Fields- the only difference is they're both a lot smaller, and have fewer disaffected youths in them.

I agree with Col and Yabby on this as it is not the gap between rich and poor. Both Belly and I come from a poor background and i doubt he went rioting and I certainly did not. My parents had ethics and morality which meant we were taught self dicipline and responsibility and knowing what Belly has said of his youth I expect he was the same.

Col may well be abrupt, but I am surprised if Belly does not agree with him on this question. Being poor is no excuse to riot.

I think it is lack of modern parential teaching of kids and the goody, feely of schooling that brings on the situation that youth can act and do whatever they like, with minimal consequences.

I would never tell my dad that I got the cane at school because I may get another whack, which I likely deserved. If a youth got a girl prgnant it was not left to the State to provide for her and the baby, he shouldered the responsibility of marriage and fatherhood. That was expected. Kids were taught to say please and thankyou and to respect our elders and the police. Elders were always refered to and Mr and Mrs, first names were forbidden. Respect for others has to be instilled in kids and that is what is lacking today.

Maybe we need to bring back National Service for both boys and girls to teach some pride and respect. Not necessary in a military sense either.

[Deleted for abuse.]

Dear Graham,

I've been re-reading the posts on this thread.
And I've had to re-think the entire issue.
We can't really compare the UK to Australia.
Pericles could be right - our children are the
best educated and most privileged in human
history and they probably would go surfing,
because they can.

However as another poster pointed out - we as parents
have to also take the responsibility to ensure that
the upbringing we give our children has a sturdy
sensibility, a world view, that's different from the
"Me" mentality of modern culture. In short that we
also focus on the content of our children's hearts
and minds (or what is often described as character),
so that we end up with decent human beings.

Then hopefully UK style riots wouldn't happen here.

its worth noting
just egsactly how wrong
media reporting can be..so for future refereance

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/08/10/guardian-aljazeera-set-straight-corporate-media-lies-london-riots-53711/

http://www.smh.com.au/world/stereotype-of-the-underclass-does-not-apply-20110811-1iowa.html

Sounds like its not just poor disadvantged kids running riot.

Hi There Lexi,
This has been a vigorous debate about riots and parenting. I was watching the ABC news the other evening, and apparently the behaviour of the youth concerned in the riots, deteriorated with the Police Force "Stop and Search" policy. We have been talking about this in W.A. for quite a long time, and so far, the policy hasn't come to fruition.
I am in two minds about this., too often I hear that when a crime has been committed in our State, people seem to automatically scream "Aboriginals or Muslims yada yada yada.....", how terrible.
If W.A. and other states bring in this stop and search policy, I would bet my back teeth that the above mentioned people will be the first to be stopped and searched.
Education is a must for most people, and they should all be inspired to do the best they can, in order to do well in their future lives. Sadly in some indigenous 'camps', the parents are drunk, and the kids are not 'seen off' to school. Parenting really needs to be revised, I too had a teenager who came home, threatening me that she has rights, and she would report me to the Welfare if I didn't let her go out (she was all of 13), so too did I find the Phone No. and told her to feel free and report me...it worked, her argument was that she had rights and also respect, which so far in her young life had not been practiced by her....I told her that respect is earned, not just given automatically., thankfully, she is now 38, and a mother of two, one of whom is just like she was.....ah ....Mothers' revenge is soooo sweet.
Cheers my friend
NSB

Lexi (continued)
I really believe that children should be disciplined by their parents, unfortunately because of a minority of 'child abusers', the majority have had their rights as parents to discipline their own children taken away. Nowadays, one has to run the gauntlet of screaming 2 y.o.'s and Mothers bargain/threatening their kids with either 'time out' or plea bargaining. Sitting on the naughty chair/step means nothing to kids, I have watched young kids just doing as they please despite the threats of the parents, shopping in large supermarkets has been like running the gauntlet in a war zone.
My kids were punished (of course the punishment had to 'fit' the 'crime'), but if one is consistent with the punishment, eventually it sinks in and the kids know eventually, that the parents mean what they say.
Oh, I am so glad that am getting older.
Cheers Lexi,
NSB

Just perused an article on the riots by Mary Ridell of the London Telegraph Group. Here's some of what she wrote:

"...The real causes are more insidious. It is no coincidence that the worst violence London has seen in many decades takes place against a backdrop of a global economy poised for free fall. The causes of recession set out by J.K. Galbraith in his book The Great Crash of 1929, were as follows: bad income distribution, a business sector engaged in "corporate larceny", a weak banking structure and an import-export imbalance.
All these factors are again in play. In the bubble of the 1920's, the top 5 percent of earners creamed off one-third of personal income. Today Britain is less equal, in wages, wealth and life chances, than at any time since then.......Britain's lack of growth is not an economic debating point or a stick with which to beat the Government, any more than our deskilled, demotivated, undereducated non-workforce is simply a blot on the national balance sheet. Watch the juvenile wrecking crews on the city streets and weep for all our futures. The "lost generation" is mustering for war.....The Government may congratulate itself on its prudence but retrenchment also bears a social cost. We are seeing just how steep that price may be.
Financial crashes and human catastrophes are cyclical...."

May I? Banjo has it right, remember being poor in 1950 was not just a trip the the welfare office.
We here in this thread have managed to get Climate change/ upper class living, or maybe not, and a lot of other things.
Lets not blame poverty, not lack of jobs.
Look first at parents some of these kids are products of parents, just like them!
Who had kids too early, never prepared for them/considered them as humans or thought about their best interests.
My Mum, Dad did, we went hungry not enough of most things but we got an education at home and at school.
WASP education, get a job, work honestly, never thieve, pay your bills ,buy asap a block of land own it build on it make being one of the normal your dream.
I just wish, truly, I had the words to tell you even then and even in a small country village,one we did not come from.
How it felt to be considered white trash, because we out numbered the whole town in one very poor very big family.
This country needs more understanding, if some one feels poverty makes them a victim they alone can fight it.
Being a Criminal is being a failure.
Stop please propping up this victim thing get out there and help but we all every one of us, are accountable for our own actions.
Lexi, I once fished often, unless I am wrong the worm is found on the hook end not holding the rod.
Will check that with my servants, the one holding my thongs and meat pie will do.

Lexi, sorry but that is a load of *^#@%cks. It's not about where we have "been", it's about where we are going. You need to get out in the world before you start pontificating about how you perceive our youth. Dream on for goodness sake.

Gerald Celete said this would happen a few years ago."When people have nothing left to lose,they lose it."

As long as we let the Private Central Banks counterfeit our currencies via "quantitive easing" thus destroying our currencies and economies,then the riots will only get worse

Thanks to everyone for responding to my posts.
This is an issue that has so many sides to it
and unless you actually live in the area I guess
it's not so easy to understand things from
their perspective. Noisy - your mention of
"stop and search," by the police rang a bell and
then I remembered reading this article:

http://newmatilda.com/2011/08/12/remember-sydney-riots

It seems that there is a link between police action in
these areas.

Spindoc - you're probably right. What do I know about
what goes on in these areas. I'm merely giving an opinion.

Belly, of course not every poor kid's going to riot,
or steal. It's more complicated then that.

I think I'm going to have to shut up and listen more
to people who come from these areas. Anyway, read the
link - it may be of interest.

I can just see your scenario unfolding Arjay, as those rich kids
text each other on their Blackberries. "Its those evil Central
Banks making us steal these electical items!"

http://www.smh.com.au/world/straighta-student-lauras-looting-charge-could-cost-her-uni-place-20110812-1ipwg.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-day-five-commons-debate-live
"""
• PM promises review of instant messaging services
(Amongst other vile things to piss people off more)

• Instant messaging services will be reviewed:
"We are working with the police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality," said the prime minister.
"""

Well if your were doing what you were employed to do and serve the people, instead of filling your rich mates pockets with more taxpayer money. Maybe, just maybe they wouldn't be so pissed and plotting to burn the whole joint down.

This is just one example of how dumb nut politicians think. Not what might have caused all this, oh no, just what can we do to piss them off more! Not to mention lie through their front teeth at the causes!

It's amazing to see how many Marie Antoinette's we have in this world including on this forum. So many in denial because they live in their cushy little homes, with their cushy little jobs, reading crap on their filthy Ipads and then pontificating how everyone else are scum that don't want to work. Let them eat cake huh?

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/08/11/uk-london-riots-expand-spying-censorship-social-media-censorship-cell-phone-networks-54641/

This guy pretty much sums up what's going on, on his blog. I'm not saying he's 100% correct, I'm saying he's 150% correct.

UK style riots, coming to a country near you soon!

Youth in Australia don't all have a sense of entitlement and disparity is not only about unemployment or feelings of disenfranchisement but a perception about accessing opportunities.

There are a lot more opportunities and 'pathways' during school than ever before with stronger supports in career counselling but after school the support ends. Logically it cannot go on forever, kids have to learn to use the tools they are taught to stand alone and most can and do. Some might never be equipped. That is life.

This is a complex issue because there are many factors including as some have mentioned changes in the culture of parenting. There is a greater distance between children and parent because of changes in family structures and the push for 'working families' over quality and quantity family time. Quality time is all very well but kids also like quantity especially when very young.

I am more confident the riots would not happen here in the same way. The cultural norms - there are no absolutes and nobody can predict the future. Does talk of gloom and doom assist in perpetuating doom and gloom. It is a bit like the millenium bug hysteria. Australia is better placed to weather any economic downturn.

There is a brewing discontent here but it is not mobilised unless our irresponsible MPs fan the flames with nonsense emails as one LNP MP is being investigated at the moment. The last thing we need is politicians to lose sight of their responsibilities in the pursuit of power.

Yabby,you and Pericles must have a comprehension disorder.Lets go back to basics.

Why is must new money be created from nothing? Answer;because there is an increase in population and productivity.
Who should own this new productivity?Private banks or all of scoiety?
The present system allows private central banks to own our productivity and loan it back to us as debt.It is like you stealing from your neighbour and giving it back as debt with interest plus what you stole.

The worst travesty is that inflationary money created by banks and our govts is also created as debt.They are stealing from us via depreciationg our currency and have the audacity to present it as debt?

Yabby,those who live the lie of deception and corrupt practises will perish by it.

Just, again have to ask, do we need to insult others who do not share our view?
I firmly believe it is a sign of our failures, to try to bully others or be little them for not being as we think we are.
In fact Lexi, once class and poverty, a very long time ago, created Criminals.
We do it for fun now!, a good number of these crims came from middle class.
We must not ignore that.
A quick look at this days Sydney Telegraph, a few story's of our own.
One, just that, a 15 year old, had a shocking life we are told wandered the streets as a four year old while mum and dad drank and took drugs, has over 100 crimes now.
Those who see kids in care know we have thousands of such parents.
Some we reward with big screen TV to have a child they do not want.
We must not except more of the same, we should be improving/changing/ trying new ways to give us a better future.
We however are separated only by time,without change from our burning streets.

Pelican:"There is a greater distance between children and parent"

That distance has also been created by such things as "The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child", which has undermined the basis for adult authority by placing the minor hurt of a child's immediate sense of shame or guilt or pain that might result from punishment at higher priority than the benefit that the child might gain from being punished and learning the lesson the punishment was intended to teach. So we have schools whose only serious punishment option is suspension or expulsion, neither of which does anything to address the actual needs of the child, but it's all good, the "Rights" are being preserved.

By undermining the basis of the contract between adults and children, we have created a generation of more-or-less "feral" children, who simply have no respect for authority because authority has never imposed itelf upon them except in ways that seem arbitrary or disruptive or as a vast, amorphous threat.

I've had the recent experience of my 14 year old daughter, upon being told that something wasn't a good idea tell me "I trust my judgement", as though that ended the matter. I'm sure you can imagine what sort of response that particular pearl received...

I'm with Belly - there is too much angry language being used on this thread. At the moment I'm judging it to be under the level of "abusive", but as various members add to it collectively it is getting to the level where it makes the thread unpleasant.

So, unless the level of aggro is stepped down I will start deleting posts.

I agree with the fact that peoples opinions are being shouted down by the righteous, I posted on another thread some time ago, that according to the ancient philosopher(s), "Every thing is right, and everything is wrong", that, my overzealous posters is the nub of it, because everything is right/wrong, according to your own point of view, to which, my friends, we are all of us entitled.
Now you can all go and 'have a Bex and a good lay down'
Lexi, you have done well with your posting, your intelligence and willingness to accept others' points of view is outstanding.
NSB

PS All of you/us, who think that we should be disciplining our kids are quite right, and I applaud those of us who do (a slap on the rump is not, I repeat not, a crime,) when the kids get older, and you can reason with them, then, until you can, slap 'em and ground 'em.

Dear Noisy Scrub Bird,

Thank You for your kind words.
At present I've got my 18 month year old grandson
for the day - since early this morning. My daughter-in-law
is expecting another in October and she's caught a bit of
gastro by the sound of it. She rang us early and asked if we
could help her out. I've managed to get the bub down for a nap.
So here I am trying to relax a bit. Later on we'll go for
a walk and then I'll make dinner for everyone. My son can
take some of it home for his wife and try to get her to eat
something.

The UK riots are quite distressing. I read a bit of the
Herald Sun newspaper yesterday and it seems that there is
a racial element involved in them as well.

I guess its easy enough for us to judge - but as I wrote
earlier, I think you'd have to actually live in the areas
to fully appreciate the problems that people encounter on
a daily basis.

As for raising children - every parent I know
lives with the uneasy sense that their children are growing
up too fast, without clear values or a real code to live by.
While we spin our wheels worrying about - "reading, writing,
and arithmetic," our children may be missing the "real
basics" like - respect, loyalty, and a sense of fair play.
Survey after survey shows that our children who will be the
best educated and most privileged in human history, what is
therefore important is the content of our children's hearts
and minds, or what is often described as character.
When we say, "It's what's inside that counts," we speak a simple
but profound truth. I view my job as a parent - to try and raise
a decent human being. So far I've been lucky - my sons have
turned out beautifully - and I'm very proud of them.

Dear Lexi,
I hope you are coping well enough with your grand-daughter.
Yes, we were brought up in a respectful way, and good manners and respect for each other was taught at a very early age., society in those days required high standards, and I am glad that they did. We raised our children as we were raised, and it didn't do any harm. Of course there were a few tricky moments when our eldest became a teenager and wanted to grow up too quickly. But the nice thing is that , our strict, but loving ways are now being echoed by my three children towards their own children....so I guess that it all rubbed off. Back in the UK, growing up, we had to be good, because if we didn't, our step-father meted out some pretty harsh punishment, we were too scared to do anything wrong.
Have yourself a lovely weekend with your Son and baby.
Cheers Lexi,
Don't bow down to the detractors on this forum, they are too crass for my likes.
NSB

Lexi, (P.S.)
Yes, we really need to walk in the shoes of the disadvantaged to appreciated it all, my make-up tends to defend them, as compassion plays a big part in my life. It is usually adverse circumstances which creates certain behaviours, it is easy to for some Australians to pass judgement when we live in the "Lucky Country".
NSB

We humans are different.
From many classes in Society many cultures and Education levels.
One mans racist is another freedom fighter.
Not one of us can say, with honesty , those people are different than me.
Some would be conservatives some Labor most would not care about politics or anything.
We know middle class took part, how did their back ground force them to criminal acts.
Given the right time and place most people do things they would not.
Remember the experiment that saw people thinking by pressing a button they gave great pain to people who got answers wrong.
No not poverty not hardship but crowd mentality * I want to be part of this *
Drove that crowd, being prepared and ready, to be part of the answer may be our only defense.
I do not want to get involved is cowardly.
Living in our free country should be defended not vigilantes but brave acts in the face of such.

Dear Belly,
Very succinctly put my friend, it is very easy to have views on why people behave as we have seen in the last week or so. Many things drive people to commit the crimes which have been done. We don't know for sure the causes of it all, I suspect there are more than a few factors.
But I have often said, to the harsh critics, we have to walk in their shoes to get some glimmer of reason for their actions; I don't condone crime such as destroying the houses and businesses of innocent people.
I know that the UK Government is carrying out mass cuts in spending. Maybe that has something to do with it all, who would know?
There are some areas in Britain where education is not important, or so it would seem. Love her or hate her, Julia Gillard has a real focus on Education, which cannot be a bad thing.
Cheers Belly,
NSB

Could it happeh here?

Yes, most certainly; it is already happening in slow-motion.

The local Video-Ezy had it's front window broken last night.
Looks just like the unburnt boarded up shops in London.

Vandalism is rife in the town and some local community groups have closed because of such vandalism.

Children of a certain ethnic group roam around during school hours but the school does nothing about it as the teachers are only too happy not to have them in class.

The police are disillusioned as every juvenile vandal that they round up is given a 'talking to' and is doing just the same thing tomorrow.

Personally, I think that a re-introduction of public floggings mightn't be a bad idea.
Cane on the bare arse in front of the Council Chambers at 11.00 AM Saturday mornings.

Is Mise:"The local Video-Ezy had it's front window broken last night."

Send in the tanks!

I have just re read every post in the thread.
I gain from that see things I missed track the lurches away from the threads intended track.
And you learn about posters.
NSB believe me Friend while not riots 20 or 30 took part, in all places Mascot,and the blood came every Friday night.
200 in another place came together, wasps Vs Fairfield one weekend, the fight was monstrous and I still do not know why.
Now this I know, from the first day in school kids flock together gang like?
Any weakness is taken advantage of, our kids are different when we are not looking.
In England the average Bobby has no gun .
But increasingly the kids do.
Asked in a modern world to police human bombs, terrorism, criminal gangs.
Remember in a street crowd in a gang, in any empty head, being seen as one of the crowd is the thing.
Unarmed police give these lard heads a chance to be tough knowing they can do it.
Most Bully's are exhibitionists, so are these grubs, yes it can/will happen here.

belly..bbc hardtalk had a discussion this morning on the topic
and the thing that stood out for me was we are all expert[in hindsight]

you will have noted the racists are having a field day
and those who hate social media too

we got the hit kids hard brigade that isnt silent[in hindsight]
but basiclly mate were all riding our own hobby horse

so we need get back to the basics
this was caused by ovef zealous police shooting a darkie
[who as it turns out may or maynot have fired a gun]

the police went into their spin
then in time it comes out 'the evidence'[a bullit in a police radio
turns out to be a police issue]..fired by a police gun

that made some upset
then oppertuinists did listen to their vile inner 'voices'..and the looting burning and blaming has be-gun..folowed by EVEN WORSE police brutality...[that gives the weak minded furher excuse to detst police FORCE [not a service..unless its serving vice..special adgenda's]

but lets egsamin your own words

""Any weakness is taken advantage of,"'
only by weak people[be they a weak police force
or a govt trying to avoid being sen as weak

""our kids are different when we are not looking.""

our police are different when no one watches them
[its readilly agred that one to 2%..of any group is able to be corrupt..take the recent egsample of the drug squad guy CAUGHT bringing in heaps of drugs precurser..who previously scammed 5 pounds of heroin...'lost' in a 'sting....]

entrapment mate
police policing policy
an ARMED response group..of gun toting COPS

""In England the average Bobby has no gun.""

mate i didnt see one 'bobby'
i saw thugs with badges..in dark satanic costume
playing their parts...ie a policing FORCE..

""But increasingly the kids do.""

mate back to topic
i AUSTRALIA..most kids got knives
not guns..and even then its likely only a fake/gun

EVEN then its only very few kids..

but if coppers think..*EVERY KID
we will see the rioters..in the streets
[with knives..or hammers..or shovals or rocks..

or drums..or flags...or voices]

but mate
kick me i kick back

good people will TRY to be good

AND BAD PEOPLE WILL CHOSE TO DO BAD
go figure eh?

bobbies?..""Asked in a modern world
to police human bombs, terrorism, criminal gangs.""

develop an us and them mindset
everything we do is fine..but them mongel guntoting thugs[your kids]..mate its best to PUT THEM IN THEIR PLACE..whatever it takes..if its locking them up for stealing a pair of socks [or a loaf of bread..or as has just happend..for 4 bottles of water..for 6 mths'

then so be it
but the bobby of old is dead
police dont 'walk the beat'..they sit and watch the camera's
[but put the camera's on them for a moment

here sit they...in a group
insulting the most basdic stupidity..in live time
its THEM..the watchers..and us the watched]..we are judged
by these hollier than thou police...not bobbies keeping the peace

i can hear THEM saying..""Remember in a street/crowd..in a gang..in any empty head,..being seen as one of the crowd""of them the criminals..versus us..""is the thing.""

""Unarmed police give these..'lard heads'..""

mate it WAS ARMED POLICE THAT STARTED THIS RIOT
they them, lying...spining their spin..to the media
then it being proved a lie

""a chance to be tough""

EGSACTLY

""knowing they can do it.""

EGSACTLY

""Most Bully's are exhibitionists,
so are these grubs,""

egsactly
grubs in light armour hiding bwehind badges

""yes it can/will happen here.""

if i thought it was going to
i would stop posting

those who want to shut up blogging
will shut it down..or look for every excuse to blame the bloging

as long as its THEM V them
or US v us

or THE*M v us

Do the NSW Police Force have 'rubber bullets', water cannon and CS gas ready for any emergency?

If they do, will they be allowed to use them?

the mise asks...""Do the NSW Police Force have 'rubber bullets', water cannon and CS gas ready for any emergency?"'

of course they do
BUT lets track back a bit
what are 'rubber bullets'
normal bullets*..with a coating of rubber

when we 'talk' of rubber
REMEMBER..they are real bullets
and a thin rubber coating..ie not 'solid rubber'

the word used reflects the spin
should we allow ANYONE to shot bullets at your kids?
[you didnt mention the shotgun..'bean bags"..or the tazers killing people..or drug sniffing dogs..or the many 'other police tricks'..they have now...

the big thing is response time[in the uk]
because most police NOW are on 9 to 5
[dont waste time reporting to a cop shop after hours]

the police should be about public saftey
protecting people..

not about policing them..often for petty crime
but as andrew biolt points out

we have had lots of RIOTS right here
bolt reported 5*..at least..in recent years

[of course the rest of his spin was ccccrap]

but its not if
but when..we have the next one

the list all had a common link
overzealous policing..!

that then..stops people gathering..
because..*all get tared with the same brush

generic labeling
by race/creed/colour..or sex
danger will robinson...is it as plain as we su-mise?

Belly, I take your point in your point., I think crime comes from both boredom and neglect. A lot of these people don't like school, sometimes they are ridiculed because they have problems with education etc.
However we have to look for reasons, rather than excuses. I do not condone what these riotous people have done, they need to pay for their crimes, although frankly I don't think that jail is the answer. However, I think that the female Judges (at least in W.A.) are a little too easy with some of these kids.
Kids these days need discipline, that is how they learn, too many parents are working these days, often leaving their (youthful) kids to their own devices., therein lies some of the triggers for bad behaviour.
The problem is systemic while both parents are perhaps out to work to pay off a mortgage, boredom is a great trigger for misbehaviour.
A bit of public/voluntary work wouldn't go astray in school holidays (supervised work, that is). The kids need to realise that they can get the things that they want, and can achieve anything if they try hard enough...the formula is simple, the hard bit is applying it.
Cheers,
NSB

NSB yes ok a start but sports and activity's that bring them together with sponsors who can make a difference.
I stand by poor parenting being a reason.
And that some had great up bringing and still took part.
I am not a national service will fix them bloke.
I dislike every effort to use regimentation, Hitler did that.
But think no cub or scout took place in this.
OUG seems you blame society and police, would you like to live without a cop around.
Yep read the headlines NSW close to head cop is a crim, think about 10% have always been but rather not live without them.
Hating cops is a hobby,rather we looked at the true trash who burned parts of London.
Far cry from those Londoners who lived in the Blitz

I still think that Desmond Morris was correct, when he wrote
"The Human Zoo". That is in fact what we have created in the last
100 years with megacities, based on cheap energy. Cram more and
more people in there, huge blocks of apartments surround them,
people peering out like at the zoo. We then wonder why they
become neurotic, bored etc.

I always notice the difference with farm kids, where they grow up
in a completely different environment. They learn to drive, to
weld, to grow vegies, learn about animals, learn about nature,
learn all sorts of skills.

Quite a different environment then a kid who grows up in a mega block
of flats, with little to do but hang out at the local shopping centre
and find some relief to the boredom. We are then surprised when they
become neurotic too.

OUG,

I think that you need to broaden your education about 'rubber bullets'; the ones that the British Police have are 1.5 inch diametre and 4.5 inch long.

"A low power propelling charge gave them a muzzle velocity of about 60 m/s (200 ft/s) and maximum range of about 100 m (110 yd). The intended use is to fire at the ground so that the round bounces up and hits the target on the legs causing pain but not injury.[10] In Northern Ireland over 35 years (1970–2005) approximately 125,000 baton rounds were fired—an average of ten per day—causing 17 deaths.[11] The baton round was made available to British police forces outside Northern Ireland from 2001.".
ref:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_bullet.

What was OK to use on British citizens in Northern Ireland is apparently not to be used in London.

mise from your link
""Rubber bullets are rubber or rubber-coated projectiles""

you are refering to the earlier
im refering to the later

""Rubber projectiles"'..ie your type
..""have largely been replaced
by other materials as rubber tends to bounce uncontrollably...

see link 5 your link

but as i allready accesed another link
http://www.slate.com/id/1006194/

i will quote from that one

hardly informative..but

""Rubber bullets describe about 75 types of "less than lethal devices""

and if someone thinks aiming anyone of them at me
will make me less angry..they better..think again

anyone aiming to 'shoot'..at me
neednt be that suprised..IF someone..chose's..to shoot back

OUG,

Note that I put ' ' around 'rubber bullets'; the plastic variety were introduced in Northern Ireland and tried out there on men, women and children. Their correct name is baton rounds.

The London police would have the latest variation, less lethal perhaps but not politically correct for London.

A few pennies, or other foreign objects, inserted under the projectile increases the possibility of damage and the subsequent injuries cannot be sheeted home to the firer.

"The British Government pioneered the use of plastic bullets. Used extensively in Northern Ireland, it was discovered they were lethal at certain ranges.[11]

From 1973 to 1981, over 42,000 plastic bullets were fired in Northern Ireland. Fourteen people were killed by plastic bullet impacts, including nine children. Most of the deaths were allegedly[12][13][14] caused by the British security services misusing the weapon, firing at close range and at chest or head level rather than targeting below the waist.

One of the victims, 12-year-old Carol Ann Kelly from Twinbrook in west Belfast died on 22 May, having been struck by a plastic bullet fired by a member of the Royal Fusiliers on 19 May 1981.[15][16] These concerns led to campaigners such . . . ."

Links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_bullet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_bullet

Yes Yabby,
I do agree with you, we in Australia, are pretty lucky compared with some countries around the Globe.
Putting people in high-rise ghetto's is not the way to go, it breeds discontent, racial disputes (in some cases), and also breeds the 'them and us' or the haves and have nots). But what is really missing is the inspiration through parenting and schools, that most things can be achieved if you want them enough, not just 'stuff', but careers also.
Perhaps there is more mentoring required for these kids, in so saying,
I deplore the wreckage that was inflicted on those people who worked hard to get where they were before the riots. Should they go to jail,
and get their 'training' from hardened criminals?, that would be a disaster, boot camp?, I don't know. 'Tis a difficult situation.
NSB

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/08/13/london-riots-stiff-dose-truth-censored-corporate-media-55331/

A Stiff Dose Of Hard Truth And Startling Facts About The London Riots You Won't Hear From The Government Censored Corporate Media Propaganda Sources.

This video is chock full of the truths you won’t hear corporate media about the London Riots such as only 1 in 10 homes where the riots broke out have a toilet.

even the criminality of the rich pratts
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8695990/Students-face-leaving-university-with-60k-debts.html
binds them into perpetual[eventual]..slavery

dont forget
the kids ALL have the same mindsets
weal-thy or poor
they all watched the simpletons
thats so funny

but they knew enough
to only riot..when the power goes OFF

you got sold a dream
that in time will not hear your scream

once they perfected the hussh dicent up teqniques
you will be too frightend by the thought of being 'poor'
you will do anything to keep the spin going

without their id
you cant do anything

and it all just happend
cause you hasd the sun shinning in your eyes
little realising it came from servants of satans butt
but you love your entertainment so much..you watched copshop entertaintment

enjoy murder mysteries and cooking shows
would rather blather than think

Dear grahamy,

You asked if the UK style riots could happen here. Hell if the Anzacs were responsible for setting the identity of our new nation then a bloody good riot was part of the legacy.

From Wikipedia "Following Australia's entry into World War I, many Australian men volunteered to fight in Europe and were stationed in camps around Australia to receive military training before being shipped to the front. At 9.00am on 14 February 1916, at Casula Camp in Liverpool in Sydney's south west, it was announced to the recruits that the current training session would be extended into the evening, meaning a 27 hour stretch for some of the recruits. Five thousand recruits refused to accept extra duty and went on strike to protest the poor conditions at the camp. The soldiers left the camp and marched towards the centre of Liverpool, where they were joined by other recruits from around Liverpool. The number of protesters now reached as many as 15 000. They invaded a number of local hotels, drinking the bars dry, refusing to pay and started to vandalise buildings.

The soldiers then gained control of Liverpool train station, overpowered the engineers and commandeered trains heading towards Sydney, where they began rampaging drunkenly through Sydney streets, smashing windows and targeting anyone with a foreign sounding name, including Italian restaurants, even though Italy was an ally of Australia in the war. Shops and hotels were looted and people were forced to take refuge in churches to avoid the soldiers. Police reinforcements were called in and began battling the soldiers in the streets of Sydney."

This why I got a chuckle from Banjo's preferred solution of national service.

Good rioters are just as much a part of our history as good fighters and mateship. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14489984
The link tells just who, so far, has been charged mostly seems over 60% are 24 or younger.
I remain convinced while our population is less these children some times in adult body's exist in every country.

Dear Belly, 

That was probably a similar age range for our ANZACs when they rioted. Bit hard to blame fatherless homes for that one.

 What did they have in common though? Withdrawal of services/conditions/social contract could be one. Mob mentality? Obviously. The attitude of the young toward authority? Again obviously. A triggering event to galvanize the malcontented? Yup.

People can pontificate all they want but if you get enough pissed off young people with a plummeting respect for authority and throw in a match who should be surprised if a riot results? 

At least they know how to riot in a distinctly British way. In most other places the body count would have been a lot higher. Take the LA riots after the Rodney King video was released, 53 dead, thousands injured, and over a billion dollars of damage done.

Csteele as we know we do not see eye to eye lets give it another go ok?
I retreat from past remarks but note my right to think as I do.
I read your post, drank in those pubs both still exist[or did twenty years ago]
It was a far different time, but my pride in those soldiers is strong.
They created this country's union movement in a time class ruled us.
They confronted poor leadership and worse to come as England put the most useless in charge.
Based on class and seeming stupidity our men and those of other country's died for a Royal family fight.
I remain proud of them, their bravery and including the riot, but this country suffers still.
Those dead men never had the generations of children who would have made us even greater.
And the officers who treaded them so badly got what was coming.
I doubt we today can compare those men with todays of the same age
Continued.

I can only hope my frankness is not going to offend you.
My mum came from 13 kids, her dad had two family's both 13 kids.
We had 16, 8 lived to grow up, mums sister had 13 others 5.
Life was hard for ww2 baby bombers in the bush.
I *and do not think it was just my family*
Eat pumpkins and potatoes for tea and the skins for breakfast, we did any work for any wage and worked our guts out hoping for more work.
Middle class, Church of England mostly, seemed to not care.
Funny but Catholics took us all to get polio injections and fed us.
I never not ever blamed any one for our hardship, mum and dad talked every day about the importance of getting a job and lifting our selves up.
Csteele in my life I have given freely helped many.
Went to court with kids transported them very long distances home.
My union days quite apart from why I was paid I got hundreds jobs.
Help, yes we all should, but gee be realistic!
A 60 year old killed.
3 young men Muslims, murdered
I fear, yes Csteele fear, the greens idea that it is some one Else's fault.
those soldiers fought unfairness these thugs and yes mugs ? it is an insult to compare them, they went on to die for?
An England that considered them some thing it owned.

Dear Belly,

I suppose if one man's terrorist can be another man's freedom fighter then one man's rioter can be the next man's working class hero.

Perhaps the point I am trying to make might get lost in the 'Dreamtime telling' so I will use another example if I may from around the same era, although it too has striking workers as a pivotal part of the narrative.

In 1923 half the Victorian police force went on strike over better pay and conditions. From Wikipedia;

"On Friday and Saturday nights riots and looting occurred in the city, resulting in three deaths, trams being turned over, plate glass windows being smashed and merchandise looted from stores. Constables on point duty were jeered at and harassed by people until they retreated to the Town Hall, where the crowd taunted them to come out. Tramways staff and uniformed sailors helped to direct traffic in the absence of police."

"The rioting and looting was quickly attributed to Melbourne's criminal element by all of Melbourne's newspapers, but subsequent court records show that most of the offenders who were apprehended were young men and boys without criminal histories. After the strike, the Monash Royal Commission into the Victoria Police strike brought down its findings. The government subsequently increased pay and conditions for police, including a bill to establish a police pension scheme before the end of 1923."

So "young men and boys without criminal histories", I mean really what is the difference with what happened in England except that with gender equality we are seeing women and girls also facing convictions?

Cont

Cont

Some of us will have experienced in our youth being "on the tear" with your team mates after a grandfinal win, or loss, and mucking up terribly. In more sober moments we might briefly think of those members of the public who were annoyed and worried about our behavior, but there was something about being in a pack that made one feel invincible.

So when your mate nicked a couple of bottles when the rest of us are buying beers for the night the reaction wasn't to dob him in but to think of him as a cheeky bastard with a lot of hide. Not something you would ever do yourself but you think since you and the others have handed over a few hundred dollars legitimately it is about even.

Having owned and operated retail businesses I hardly feel that way now though just this Saturday gone I was having a drink with a few past team mates, we get together once a year, laughing at those who had spent the night behind bars on particularly boisterous occasions. Never had the pleasure myself but that was only through luck rather than sainthood. However knowing it was a possibility was naturally a check on behavior. (Yet the conservatives in England want to cut the police by 20%?).

I am also sick of hearing the youth of today have lost respect for authority. Anybody spending New Years Eve at Lorne during the early eighties would have seen the local divvy van showered with bottles as it made its dodging run down the main street. For 15 minutes after midnight the police were kissed by the girls and had their backs slapped by the lads before hostilities recommenced.

 The primary difference between a bunch of out of control footy mates or NYE revelers and what happened in England was pack size. Many of these youngsters will be responsible adults with families on day and they will ruefully shake their heads at what they got up to during these riots.

I was listening today to a UK local policeman talking about the reaction of his community to the riots. He was describing how the community was pulling together; how people young and old, white and black, Christian and Muslim out together repairing the damage; how the adults primary concern were for the youths who held their hopes for the future, not the damage they had caused.

In the background their political masters where rabbiting on about how today's spoilt youth needed the equivalent of a good flogging. The policeman said it was like they came from a different world.

My thought was how similar those politicians sounded to many of the posters here.

That will be me rstuart, thanks but standing by my view having, I think, an equal amount of understanding.
csteele, seems so far among those charged 95% are male,see my link.
Yes your posts while old tell of opportunism self interest and greed.
No one on this site is less conservative than me, but on the evidence of those posts your and rstuarts, are conservatives to blame?
And was it conservatives who burned and smashed parts of Paris not long ago.
Those hockey and base ball, America grid iron riots, in Canada and America conservatives did that?
Good at my age, to be told the truth I thought kids in love with Gangsta cultures, proud to hate police, others, yes an element of racism, did it.
See minority racism is just as evil as majority.
We in this country see car sales men pushing Gangsta rap into selling its cars.
The unkind but never dull, Ossie ocker are telling story's in the pub saying first car ever to come with car thief and a spare one included..
Harsh? yes but like every preconceived idea it need not be true.

Dear Belly,

You will not hear a bad word against the ANZAC rioters in Sydney because the event was a major part of the history of the union struggle in this country plus they then went and died for the country. Yet I guarantee there will be a good number of the English rioters who end up in the armed forces also potentially dying for their nation. Service life is famous for straightening wayward lives plus the General's don't mind aggression in the ranks, after all their job is to fight.

Surely the fact that the ANZACs looted and vandalized must take a little gloss off the history. I do think a comparison is warranted.

It is interesting to note their ranks swelled from 5,000 to 15,000 in an afternoon and all without social media.

If you think the Sydney riots were justified then any condemnation from you about the London riots must come from an opinion that the shooting death of Mr Duggan was not proper grounds for the mayhem.

I can live with that since absolutes are silly in these cases. 

I am also pondering the issue of a decline in respect for authority something I mentioned in an earlier post as an obvious factor. I wonder if the revelations of the corrupt relations with the Murdock press might not have contributed in some small manner to the anger and disillusionment. 

There were no ANZAC personnel in the 1916 Sydney riots.
The ANZACS landed on Gallipoli in 1915 and there is no mention of any New Zealand soldiers being in the riots.

Kindly remember that ANZAC is not the sole province of Australia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8703370/UK-riots-magistrates-told-ignore-the-rule-book-and-lock-up-looters.html
More facts about those who took part
csteele I am afraid you do not seem to share many of my views.
I am not ashamed of my youth, my lost days in the very left.
Looking back I see the ashes of dreams I drempt.
So much is clear now the lies the murders and slavery, all at the hands of Communism.
It is not old age, not a changed mind but understanding that enforces my belief.
If the left think, every such event,can be blamed on capitalism and conservatism.
If we forgive these kids ,who do not in the least care about left or right.
We sponsor this behavior.
I feel with total honesty, manufacturing a class issue based on such as this is a weakness of the very left.
I too know, with no doubt, at any age I would not run over innocents burn buildings try to kill a police man thieve.

Dear Is Mise,

That is a popular conception but not I think strictly correct. After the withdrawal from Gallipoli the term did loosen to an extent. 

From Wikipedia; 

" By this time, "Anzac" had ceased to be an acronym and had begun to be used as a term to describe any formation containing Australian or New Zealand units. I Anzac Corps, under the command of General Birdwood, departed for France in early 1916. II Anzac Corps, commanded by General Alexander Godley, followed soon after."

However more than happy to be corrected if you have other info.

Then clearly the rioters were not Anzacs at the time of the riot, they may have been in the Anzac Corps later but at the time of the riots they were merely Australian recruits and most if not all were undergoing training.
In no sense of the term were they Anzacs.

Some are saying that the police had the capacity to quash these riots in the early stages but let them happen to bring in oppressive regulation/laws on all the population,to stop protests even by peaceful people who have ligitimate gripes.It is the intelligent middle/working class that the political elites fear most.The yobbos are easly dispelled,but those who can think can change the system to one of fairness are the greatest danger.

They equate their new police enforcer to Robocop who in the movie was an exterminator.Notice the psychology working here.The rioters are sub-human and need to be treated accordingly.What about the Wall St theives who stole $ trillions in peoples'savings and super.They have not been brought to justice and will likely escape justice.

Study carefully the new laws they bring in that limit the rights of peaceful protestors to confront the establishment.We will most likely copy what Britian does.

Dear Arjay,

You said; "What about the Wall St theives who stole $ trillions in peoples'savings and super.They have not been brought to justice and will likely escape justice."

I hear you.

Bad boy Russell Brand put it very well in an article for the Guardian.

"Why am I surprised that these young people behave destructively, "mindlessly", motivated only by self-interest? How should we describe the actions of the city bankers who brought our economy to its knees in 2010? Altruistic? Mindful? Kind?
But then again, they do wear suits, so they deserve to be bailed out, perhaps that's why not one of them has been imprisoned. And they got away with a lot more than a few fawking pairs of trainers."
http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/london-riots-davidcameron?cat=uk&type=article

And while there are some that argue this isn't about class David Cameron doesn't seem to think so.

"In a major speech addressing the causes of so-called “broken Britain”, the Prime Minister said yesterday that the Government’s attention would turn to addressing the problems caused by about 120,000 dysfunctional families."

"However, within hours of Mr Cameron’s announcement, the Treasury confirmed it was pushing ahead with plans to strip more than a million families of child benefit from 2013."

Do we really think Sarah Ferguson will be included? Hardly. These are very much poor families.

Dear Is Mise,

I take the point but am still comfortable about calling them Anzacs. 

Please believe there is no sweat on my brow.
I am not angry with anyone.
I think, and have always thought the word Anzac should be respected.
Could post tens of reports of Australian and for that matter New Zealand troops running amok.
I could remind posters of the true nature of ww1, the reasons for it the resulting miss management by upper class idiots who murdered their troops.
But it has nothing to do with these riots.
It has nothing even remotely, to do with Ajay's concerns about crimes committed in world fiancés.
And it has nothing to do with being poor.
If we, in the name of pushing our own Social/Economic belief/ brand make such claims, we act just as lets say unfocused/ misleading with deliberate forethought as Abbott and his supporters.
No human poor rich or not,does not understand, this was/is a crime against the community.

"Dear Is Mise,

I take the point but am still comfortable about calling them Anzacs. Posted by csteele, Tuesday, 16 August 2011 10:11:13 PM"

OK, fair enough; what do you think about the ANZACS in the Boer War or the even earlier ones in the Sudan?

Belly,
I know you and SM only live for politics of your particular persuasion, but in your last post you said "If we, in the name of pushing our own Social/Economic belief/ brand make such claims, we act just as lets say unfocused/ misleading with deliberate forethought as Abbott and his supporters".

Why do you bring party politics into this discussion?

I looked back a page or so and i did not see any reference to your statement by anyone else, so it seems to me that you are just using this to denigrate the opposition.

Mate, like the Anzacs, it is not related, except in the sense that all our politicians have shown by example that our social responsibilities and ethics have dropped dramaticly. The issue is far more social than politicial, though politicians should set example by not lieing and stabbing others in the back

I am directly addressing the question 'Could it happen here?' by showing it all ready has repeatedly.

The reason for using the rioting Anzacs was to show the lie that only the feckless dropout could engage in such behavior, or that social media is to blame.

My further example of the Melbourne riots showed the participation of the young without prior criminal histories is not dependent on militant feminism or fatherless homes.

We need to realize that given the right circumstances our communities are perfectly capable of engaging in riotous behavior even our revered Australian troops.

I'm not using the example to denigrate them rather to show they were completely human as are the British rioters, all capable of running amok. This propensity was so vividly illustrated in the book 'Lord of the Flies'.

It is a truism of human nature that if the respect we have for those institutions we have agreed to allow a degree of control over our lives disappears then chaos will reign.

The question then becomes how do those controlling institutions react? If, as in the case of the Sydney riots, concessions were made and grievances addressed, respect regained. On the otherhand if purely vengeful and punitive measures are taken then all that will be achieved is the setting of a time table for the next conflagration.

David Cameron would appear to be setting the stage for the latter although agreeing to address the needs of 120,000 dysfunctional families is perhaps in some fashion facing reality.

csteele,
you again refer to the soldiers that rioted in Sydney as Anzacs.
They clearly were not and as a former Australian Infantryman, who was not an ANZAC but upheld that tradition, I find the reference offensive.
You may be happy to call the rioters Anzacs, others are not.

There is also the small matter of historical accuracy.

Dear Is Mise,

You have already informed me of your offense of the obvious. Perhaps you might have preferred the term 'soon to be ANZACs'. And I suppose that term could be applied to the 3,000 Anzac troops who rioted for three days in Cairo just before they were shipped out for the Dardenelles campaign.

You seem to be trying to make the point that Anzacs were not Anzacs unless they had served in Gallipoli. Yet it was the same men who trashed parts of Cairo. Plus it was the same troops in training in Sydney who went on to serve in Anzac divisions.

I note you are on your high horse but that is as much as you get.

There is nothing like a riot to bring about changes in conditions and the Cairo mayhem saw far better veneral disease management, free condoms and other actions that addressed the concerns of the troops.

Our rioting, pox ridden lot were also incredibly brave resourceful soldiers extremely loyal to each other and they really don't need any sugar coating from you.

However the discussion here is about rioting and rioters they indeed were.

I have no respect for David Cameron, a man who caraes about no-one outsdie of his own class and who himself has a conviction for arson and vandalism (trashing property) in 1986. I'm Scots but most English people north of Manchester can't stand him either.

As to whether the ENGLISH riots could happen here, yes they coulod. We have a many disengaged young people here who see no future and who don't feel the polititians listen or care.

The riots were English only and even the BBC was forced to apologise to Scotland for their innaccurate reporting of 'UK' and Britain' riots. THey had to change the reportying to say England.

I wish the Australian media would follow suite.

Dear Sulean Dubh,

I think you might find it was Nick Clegg who did community service, without a conviction, for setting fire to some cacti in Germany aged 16, unless of course you have other details.

Dear Is Mise,

On reflection I realize I run the risk of being on my own high horse so I will endeavor to be more circumspect about referring to the Sydney rioters as Anzacs as not all of them ended up in Anzac divisions.

Indeed Ernest William KEEFE was of the 6th Light Horse Regiment Depot when he was killed on 14 February 1916 by soldiers dispersing rioters at Liverpool Station.

He is honored at the War Museum.

http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse/index.blog/2165472/the-battle-of-central-station-new-south-wales-14-february-1916-roll-of-honour/

Banjo we will have that beer one day, but mate fair go!
Your post is silly on two grounds.
You should surely understand I have flogged my party here often, in fact take the anti English labor stand here.
Now! think!csteele is a Social activist from the left[ I base that on the evidence of his/her posts.
I am in this thread contending the cuddle a mug, blame the police, not the crim, mob are using this and every such issue for politics.
That first beer! your shoot!
But I have done it too, you now honestly have insulted me worse than ever here, comparing me with Shadow Minister!, he can come but his shout ok?
is mise I am not anti csteele but you are right here.
I am totally unhappy with a thread using less we forget for reasons other than to remember too.
I Have an idea for debate next post.

I want to question the way England and Australia handle Juvenile justice.
In cases of a juvenile victim I agree not releasing the offenders details is needed to protect the victim.
Both country's, to protect the child/juvenile? do not release their names and do not convict often.
Some rack up multiple cases and serve no sentence.
A quote, near as I can remember, from iceT song follows.quote hands off me cannt touch me cannt do nothing I am a juvenile end quote.
Not, not a rap fan.
But tell me who is protected by say the youth in another thread here with 50 to 100 crimes, no convictions and we do not know his name?
What are the advantages of this.
Are we breeding the next generation ,one after another, of emerging teen age thugs by kissing kids when we should be taking them off the streets.
Is it wrong of me? to question what about the rights of the six dead?

Banjo I have rethought this over night.
My intent was as I said.
You will not like this, many will not.
But you surely? can not say I am fixed on politics as much as many here.
It has been my view, for 50 years, we promote our side of politics, all of us.
We not me, blindly allow our side freedom to act wrongly.
My belief, honestly firmly held, that an attempt to lionize these criminals, blame Society/conservatives, for their actions was taking place.
Banjo, mate, my reference supports my view, Abbott and his team, in just using the term lie in reference to Gillard.
While lying every day, while saying yes protect farming land from gas miners then no we will not, mirrored in a hundred maybe five hundred other such actions is just plain wrong.
I think you should look at posts from Individual haunting unrelated threads with bitter insults.
Rechtub with uncontrolled blind rage.
I used politics as a measurement in a thread that ultimately come back to politics.
No easy task being a Labor voter in a forum inhabited with many who only want one side debated.

csteele,

Thank you.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/divided-we-fall-20110820-1j3ir.html
First glance? different than the London riots.
Or is it.
Old built in need, we seem to have to be us, and call others them,
To be different.
In fact to revel in that difference,as a way of? strangely uniting us, against them.
Class against class color against color workers against non workers or is it the other way around?
Education, I come back to it constantly, and in truth would not Begin to know what is taught at school today.
But are we teaching life skills,that in the end we have to respect others.
Or as I fear, is even our education telling us who to dislike.